M1A Arrived Today

[BruceB]

For a number of what I believe are valid reasons, I have opted out of buying a Fulton Armory competition-grade M14.

This left me with the gaping hole in the rack which would have been home to the Fulton rifle, so I checked around on Gunsamerica and found a "loaded" NIB Springfield Armory M1A at an FFL's store in South Dakota, at a price I could live with.

That rifle arrived here today, and I am very pleased with it so far (without firing it....that should happen after work tomorrow morning). The rifle has been dis-assembled and cleaned, and she's now ready to boogie. Anticipation will help keep me awake through this shift!

There's a lot of discussion on various rifle Boards about Springfield's use of non-GI parts these days, so I was pleased to find that the trigger housing is by TRW, the hammer from H&R, and the operating rod came from (the original) Springfield Armory. Bolt and NM barrel are current non-military production.

The stock is a VERY nice piece of straight-grain walnut, with excellent finish and shaping. Clamping pressure of the trigger group is just about right. Trigger pull is good enough right out of the box that I will not be messing with it at all. The rifle came with a ten-round magazine, and just yesterday UPS delivered three Taiwanese 20-round M57 mags for $12.99 each, from Midway. These are brand new, and were made on US Gubmint machinery. They look just fine, and accept 20 rounds with no difficulty at all. They also fit well in the rifle, engaging the catch correctly.

Once I work my way through a few hundred jacketed rounds to see what it will do ( I bought 500 168 Matchkings, OUCH), and to smooth the bore a bit, the fun will begin with cast boolits. I can hardly wait!

[omgb]

I'd be curious to hear your reasons for opting out of the FA rifle. I had FA rebuild and rebarrel a really tired WWII M1 Garand 2 years ago. I chose a standard service barrel, NM trigger, a complete reblue and a laminated stock. They informed me that my gas housing was worn out of spec as was my operating rod. I ended up having them replace those both. Total cost came in around $1,300. The gun is beautiful and funtions flawlessly. It is very accurate as well. But geez, I could have bought a SA Garand for almost that price and unloaded that worn-out old gal at a gunshow. Also, while the workmanship was top notch, it did take a whol lot longer than originally promissed. IIRC, I sent the gun in in June and got it back in October. So I'm not too sure I'd go with them again. Kinda pricy. Then again, one gets what one pays for and the work was top-drawer.
R J Talley

[StarMetal]

I'm happy for you Bruce. I would love to have one myself. I hope it shoot really good for you pardner.

Joe

[BruceB]

Gents;

RJ, one factor, just as you mentioned, was time. I was told "several months" for delivery, when I placed the order at the beginning of March. It's now six months, and not a word from them. At my age and in my medical condition, there may not be all that much "time" left. I'm intending to make good use of the commodity!

Another factor was the cost, at over $2200......I'm making a hunting trip in a few weeks' time which can certainly benefit from the extra $800 in my jeans, which is the price difference between the rifles. I really don't need a match-grade rifle, since I'm not competing these days. A "rack-grade" rifle should be ample for my informal shooting needs. This new M1A sure does look a long way above "rack grade", though.

The biggest factor was that I'd gotten in on a special deal for Fulton M14 receivers over at Warrifles.com, and my rifle was to be built on one of those specially-numbered receivers. A number of issues were reported with that run of receivers, and I became less-enthused with the deal as time dragged on.

Certainly, Fulton is known for high-quality work....on THEIR time schedule.

Joe, many thanks for your good wishes. Once I get started with REAL boolits, I'll keep y'all posted....

[mike in co]

BRUCE,
WHEN MENTIONED YOU HAD ORDERED A FULTON RIFLE, I BIT MY LIP AND KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT.
I'M GLAD TO HEAR YOU HAVE SINCE CANCELLED THAT ORDER.

there use to be a high power board on the old shooters.
there was some lively (to say the least..sorta moa kinda) discusions on competition guns and the crap offered by fulton and the fact that it was a non-competitive in design.
i'm an ex m1a owner. bought a std, rebuilt as a competion with 5 pillar bedding and sold it without every shooting it.
an ar-10t will out shoot an m14, and do it longer with lower maintenance..
i fell in love with m-14's when the usa sponsored the palma match and furnished all shooters with match grade m14's.
i love most 308/7.62x51 nato rifles.
i got a real usgi m14 mag you may have at very reasonable cost.
the m57 mags are suppose to be good.
i think all my m14 tools are gone but i'll look around.
mike

[omgb]

You know Bruce, it seems as if your experience was similar to mine. Communication was a problem with my deal as well. I'm going to have to have an M1A sooner or later and my guess is that it will be a SA rack grade as well. I don't compete at the moment either and doubt that I will any time soon. I'd like to have another semiauto service rifle JIC that big shaker ever hits us here in the PRK. I lived through that 94 quake and we were cut off from all help for almost a week. Looting was a fear as was the complete lack of law enforcement in our valley (our area any way) at the time. I can imagine that in an even bigger quake, things could get even more dire. I for one, do not intend to "go quietly into that dark night" to quote Dylan Thomas. If I'm beset by feral animals, two-legged or otherwise and the law is not available to assist, I will do as Uncle Sam trained me to do and stand my ground. So I guess a rack grade service rifle will do.

R J Talley

[BruceB]

Mike;

By all means, please do have a look around and see if you have any tools or accessories for the M14/M1A, and I'll also be glad to buy that surplus magazine. I once owned an original AR-10 made by Artillerie Inrichtingen in the Netherlands on a Sudanese contract. Nice rifles.

RJ;

I certainly agree with you on having a good battle rifle around for bad times. I have very little faith in the 5.56 rifles when it comes to the 'heavy lifting' of penetrating material, stopping vehicles, or similar stuff. Give me a full-power .30, and maybe a few rounds of armor-piercing in my ready-use ammo supply! A couple of tracers near the bottom of each loaded magazine are a good idea, too...lets one know that the supply is getting low. Such scenarios are much more believable now, in the aftermath of Katrina, than they were just a couple weeks back. The current illegal confiscation of firearms from law-abiding citizens in New Orleans will hopefully trigger some massive legal actions, and reduce the likelihood of such robbery in other jurisdictions in the future.

While I enjoy seeing what can be done with cast boolits in my service rifles, they do have a more-serious purpose, and I try to keep a reasonable amount of jacketed-bullet ammo around just in case. I'd best check what I have, while I'm thinking about it, and while the example of Katrina is fresh in my mind. Katrina has also clearly shown something I've long believed: namely, that an honest citizen may well need a rifle which can reach FAR beyond what many gurus used to consider "defensive ranges". I've always thought a good fighting rifle to be esssential in a defensive plan, contrary to such opinions in the past. Shotguns are OK, in their place, but give me a rifle, FIRST. That's the foundation of my defense.

I'm afraid California could turn into a real Hell if the big one ever takes out a major city. At least you wouldn't have the toxic soup that overtook NO, but even so, you'd better be prepared to hunker down and wait for quite a while before normality returns.

[Buckshot]

..............MAny years ago I bought 500 Rem Core-Lokt bulk 165gr slugs. I'd already worked up a nicely accurate load in the old Garand with 150gr C-L's and WC852. About 2650 fps or so. I decided I wanted to just have some ammo on hand for 'whatever'. Mainly if I got the urge to excersize the rifle at the range I'd be able to pick some up and take it along.

At that time all relaoding-casting was done in the untility room. I was in there with the Dillon just cranking them out and had a full 3 lb coffee can full sitting there on the counter and a shallow carboard box I'd dump the plastic Dillion box into when it'd get full. Donna came in to start a load of laundry and asked if there was a riot going on someplace she hadn't heard about :D

One other thing that allowed this ammo factory type production was this was when you could buy a shooter grade Garand most anyplace for $300 or so. Every weekend there'd be a gang of guys with their new rifles and boxes of PMC 30-06. The stuff would be drifted up around trhe benches like snow. The rangemaster (Kenny) at the time was shoveling it up into 5 gallon pails.

I had to beg him to stop offering it to me as I couldn't say no. I guess I still have a couple thousand rounds in plastic bags. Maybe it's time to get a thousand bulk Rem 165gr C-L's again and crank up the Dillon? :D

.............Buckshot

[8mmshooter]

Congratulations on your M1A rifle. I would like one of those myself for the same reasons. I was one of the last basic training companies at Fort lenordwood that trained on the ole M14 in 1968. Mine was pretty wore out from all the prior trainees that had used it before me. When I fired for record I had to adjust the rear sight for elevation after every shot as the sight would drop down all the way to the bottom from the recoil. The night before qualification we had gone through the infiltration course in November in the rain, snow and mud mix. The next day we fired for qualification ; mine was so dirty it would not feed from the 20 round magazine. I had to single load and kick the bolt open after every shot as it was full of the slop. It would always fire though and I thought and still do that it is probably the best rifle in the world. I can't quite come up to the money now for one ;but I do have the next best one; the Old Grand Lady M1 Garand.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Bruce, You now have the Hummer H1 (never mind Cadillac) of "just in case" rifles, IMO. Your thread and Katrina are a wake-up call for everybody. Our thin veneer of civilization gets a little thin during disasters, or even during inconveniences. I have a Rorke's Drift sized package of Turkish 8X57, but my No. 4 needs to be similarly supplied. Looking forward to checking out your new M1 A.

[BruceB]

With some of the common military calibers, such as the .303 British and the 7.92x57 Mauser, there's no real reason that heavy-for-caliber cast boolits won't serve as the stash ammo for emergencies. This is on the assumption that careful experimentation has yielded good accurate loads at just about factory-jacketed energy levels. The service load for the .303 is 174 grains at 2440 fps, and by using the 314299 at 2100 or so, the ammo should be at least as effective. 200-plus-grains in the Mauser should do equally well, and either caliber will easily reach 200 yards and more with great effect.

Not expecting any protracted firefights, I think just a couple of hundred rounds of stash ammo for each service rifle should be ample for peace of mind, but I'm also reminded of a quote from Jeff Cooper: "There are two kinds of ammunition, ENOUGH, and NOT ENOUGH....there is NO such thing as TOO MUCH ammunition." Frankly, in those quantities, a few hundred jacketed loads won't break the bank.

It's a bit late to start handloading, when the looters and other criminals are at the end of the block.

The new M1A went to the range Saturday morning, and it astonished me. Here is a rifle fresh from the factory box, with nothing done to it except the removal of factory preservatives and re-lubing. With four different magazines, it functioned flawlessly through 90 handloaded rounds (168 Sierra Matchkings/41.0 IMR 4895/CCI#34) and put those rounds into TINY groups at fifty yards from Der Schuetzenwagen's benchrest. I have a target here in front of me at work, and the five-round group measures just 0.38"....with iron sights, yet! To say that I'm impressed would be an understatement. Zeroing was rather easy. Now, if it will just shoot like that with CAST boolits, I'll really be a happy owner.

These old full-size service rifles are wonderful machines. They strike heavy blows at rather long range, and do it with great comfort and control at the firing point. The word "solid" comes to my mind whenever I exercise my Garand or #4, and now this M1A. These rifles give me great confidence and pleasure in the shooting, and I find them much more satisfying to own and use than the newer plastic/aluminum rifles which pass for "service rifles" today. Of course, I'm an older gent, and set in my ways, and what do I know? I'm told that my favorites are ancient, heavy, cumbersome, and out-dated...sorta like me! Hah...one of my rifles going hunting this fall weighs 9.2 pounds all-up, and it's not "too heavy" in my book!

[fatnhappy]

Well congatulations on the new arrival, Bruce. One of these days I'm going to pony up the cash for a M1A, but until then I'll rest content with my Garand like 8MMshooter. I inherited from my Uncle, who had purchased it as a retiring officer.

[omgb]

I agree with you Bruce about the service rifles. The only one I have that I really don't care much for is a 6.5 Carcano. Not much of a rifle in my book. The M39 Mosine Nagant is a better rifle with a better cartridge. Maybe the straight pull Ross is as bad as the Italian job but even it has its good points. I find it hard to believe that Oswald could hit the broad side of a Buick let alone the President using a Carcano.

R J T

[Larry Gibson]

BruceB

Congrats on the M1A. I have been shooting M14/M1As since I joined the army in '64. Have had my own M1A since the earlier '70s. Made High Master both regular and long range with them. Have owned 5 myself and shot many more. I have also been fortunate in having access to M14s in the USAR and NG. I have been shooting cast in them since the mid '70s. I've found 4895 and 4831to be two good powders depending on the bullet used. I've had best results with 311041, 311291 and 311299. Those two powders and the above will function the action quite reliably. Accuracy is dependant on the rifle and barrel twist of course. Never had any lead fouling of the gas system but I always clean them regularly anyway. M1As are notoriously rough on brass life with service level loads. Below is an article I wrote regarding the use of X-dies which has solved the case life problem. Wish they had made them years ago, I wouldn't have gone through the brass I did. Hope the info helps. You'll love the M1A more and more.

Larry Gibson

Ok, I've got to break up the article to get it to post!

RCBS X-DIES: A TEST
By Larry M. Gibson

Surprisingly, there was little fanfare with the introduction of RCBS’s X-Dies. All I saw were small blurbs in the trade magazines and mention of them in Rick Jamison’s Shooting Times column. Advertised to reduce or eliminate case stretch the question is; do they? My real interest was: Will they reduce case stretch, i.e. increase case life, of 7.62 NATO (that’s .308 WIN to you non-mil types) cases fired in M14/M1A’s?

The number of reloadings per case for M14/M1A’s is probably the worst of any rifle/cartridge combination short of the .303 Lee Enfield family. Incipient head separation is the reason for case loss. My experience with rack grade M14/M1A’s is five good firings per case with the sixth being a “throwaway”. This only if the brass was fired in a bolt gun or M14/M1A to begin with. A match M14/M1A with a tight “match” chamber may get 1-2 more firings but more often not. If surplus oncefired brass is used the first firing was more than likely done in a machine gun and only 1-2 reloadings/firings are possible before head separation.

(continued in next post)

[Larry Gibson]

Most head separations can be identified as a speckled crack forming around the case just ahead of the web at the expansion ring. This crack is sometimes quite obvious. Then on some cases the head will separate from the case on ejection. Many times both parts of the separated case are ejected. But sometimes only the head is ejected leaving the front half of the case in the chamber. The rifle picks up the next round attempting to chamber it and things get jammed up. Not good! The other question here; is there gas cutting damage to the chamber?

What causes this incipient head separation to happen? Simply put, on firing, the case expands to grip the chamber walls sealing off the gas pressure. When the bullet leaves the barrel pressures are reduced and the case contracts (not to its original dimensions) releasing it’s grip on the chamber walls and allowing extraction. However, it appears that the M14/M1A begins extraction prior to the pressure dropping completely. The cases do not contract as much as they would if fired in a bolt action for instance. Compounding the problem is the mil-specs for military chambers are somewhat generous in their diameter dimension to allow for functional reliability during combat conditions. When full-length resizing (necessary for M14/M1A) case walls are squeezed in first. This pushes the shoulder forward. The shoulder is then set back by the FL die and the brass flows forward into and elongating the neck. This increases the case length on each resizing considerably. Also, since the brass at the expansion ring expanded and was squeezed in and forward during resizing the case gets progressively thinner in that specific area. The result is, eventually, a head separation at that thinning location. Most mil-spec (US) chambers allow for a maximum case length of about 2.045”. I, like most M14/M1A users, have found trimming unnecessary. Incipient case head separation will occur, and cases discarded, before maximum case length is reached and trimming is necessary.

Are these RCBS X-Dies a cure for this? I decided to use my rack grade M1A to put them to the test. The issue GI barrel has quite a generous mil-spec chamber with headspace being within tolerance. This usually results in the fifth firing being the “throwaway” for brass in this rifle. It has untold thousands of rounds through it, many rapid fire. Accuracy capability is 2 1/2-3 MOA with M118 Special Ball or equivalent reload. This would be the best “worst case” test rifle. All rounds would be fired with the rifle loading from the magazine in normal semi-auto function. Slow fire single loading technique would not be used.

For ammunition I selected 10 rounds of LC 92 M118 Special Ball. A check for concentricity revealed a runout of .011” for one round with the others being .004-.007”.

My M118 equivalent load is:

BRASS: The 10 LC 92 cases from the selected M118 Special Ball
PRIMER: Winchester WLR
POWDWER: H4895 – 41gr
BULLET: M118 174gr
CARTRIDGE OAL: 2.8”

Other than deburring the flash hole, chamfering the case mouth and removing the primer pocket crimp, there was no special “case preparation” done. Cases were measured after each resizing with the minimum to maximum case lengths recorded. Concentricity was checked after each loading. Two cases (marked and tracked) consistently had .004-.005” runout with all others being .0005-.003” throughout the test. Neck thickness (outside diameter) was measured after each loading to check for brass flow into the neck area.

The test would be concluded based on any one of these criteria:

Any sign of incipient head separation.
Case buckled or dimensionally damaged/deformed during resizing.
Split neck or body.
Case length exceeding 2.045”.
Loose primer pockets.
Neck thickening to cause excessive runout (.010”).
Drastic deterioration of accuracy. (6th, 12th and 18th groups will
be fired in Fulton Armory Match M1A to verify accuracy)
Malfunctions caused by damaged (dinged up) cases.

All test firing was conducted at Tacoma Rifle and Revolver range.
The range has solid cement benches, which were used with sandbag rests front and rear. A 100 yard reduced “A” bull target was used. All targets were at 100 yards. I set up the Oehler 35P to chronograph all rounds fired for each 10 shot string. But as the test went on, and on, and on I quit after the 10th string. Chronograph results were consistent and showed no variation other than that normally expected. The LC 92 M118 averaged 2600 FPS and the M118 equivalent reload averaged 2575 FPS for the subsequent 9 ten shot strings chronographed.

The RCBS X-Die was installed in my Pacific single stage press and adjusted as per the instructions. It’s really quite easy. These dies differ from other FL dies in the dimension and design of the decapping rod. The diameter of the rod is larger and appears to act as a mandrill of sorts. There is a shoulder on it, which controls the length as the case. Apparently the case is prevented from stretching by the case mouth butting against this shoulder. Thus the decapping rod must be carefully adjusted as per the instructions. This shoulder is the key to the success of the die.

I found on the second resizing that the expander was really getting hard to pull through the necks. Also, the lengths of the cases were varying more than I thought they should. Case lubing technique was changed to standing the cases in a tray. They were then sprayed lightly with Dillon case lube. With this method the necks (lube gets sprayed lightly into the case mouth) pulled over the expander quite easily and the uniformity of case length dramatically improved. Cases are cleaned again to remove the lube. This should also remove the lube from the inside of the case neck.

[Larry Gibson]

I have thrThroughout the test case length never exceeded 2.027” and actually remained quite consistent. After the 12th resizing the necks had begun to thicken by about .001” at the shoulder to taper forward about 1/3 of the way to the case mouth. However, this did not adversely effect concentricity or accuracy.

The case rims got a little beat up but there were no malfunctions of any kind. This included the 2 firings in the match chamber M1A. Primer pockets remained tight throughout the test. I thought the case mouths would require rechamfering but they did not. Accuracy remained consistent with the rack grade M1A. The LC 92 M118 ten shot group was 2.8”. The last (15th) ten shot group with the M118 equivalent load was 2.4”. The average of groups 2-15 being 2.7”. Groups 6 and 12 were fired with the match M1A to verify the accuracy and both were 1.6”.

The test was concluded after the 15th firing based on incipient head separation. One case developed that slight speckled circle at the expansion ring. There was no clear-cut crack and probably no gas cutting happened. I may or may not continue the test with the rest of the cases.

Tabulated below are the measurements after each resizing:

RESIZING MINIMUM MAXIMUM INCREASE
CASE CASE IN CASE
LENGTH LENGTH LENGTH

1 2.013 2.019

2 2.021 2.025 .006

3 2.025 2.027 .002

4 2.025 2.027 .000

5 2.022 2.027 .000

6 2.023 2.025 -.002

7 2.023 2.025 .000

8 2.024 2.026 .001

9 2.024 2.027 .001

10 2.025 2.027 .000

11 2.025 2.027 .000

12 2.024 2.026 -.001

13 2.025 2.026 .000

14 2.024 2.027 .001

Case length evened out at the third resizing and remained fairly consistent. Interestingly #’s 6 & 12 that were fired in the match M1A show a decrease in length! At #12 is where I detected a thickening (.001”) of the case necks in the shoulder area which tapered forward. Again this did not effect concentricity or accuracy.

Questions not addressed in this test:

1. Case life when used in match chambers or bolt guns?

2. Case life of cases already fired several times?

3. Case life of surplus once-fired (in machine guns) cases?

4. Case life of civilian manufactured(Rem,Win,Fed,PMC,et all) cases?

The answers to these questions will probably have results as positive, if not more so, than this test.

My technique for loading M14/M1A ammo now will probably be as follows:

1. Clean cases
2. Stand cases in loading trays and spray lightly with Dillon case lube.
3. Size with RCBS X-Die using Pacific single stage press.
4. Clean cases. Clean primer pockets. (On 1st resizing prep cases by: remove primer crimp, deburr flash hole, turn necks, trim to uniform length and chamfer case mouth). Conduct visual inspection for defects (split necks, head separation, etc.).
5. Load on Dillon 550B. Use a Bonanza neck size die or a Redding bushing die at station 1. This may or may not be necessary. The idea here is to iron out any dents the second cleaning may have caused in the case mouth and maybe uniform neck tension on the bullet.

This limited test revealed that; using the RCBS X-Dies, when reloading for the M14/M1A, one may expect 3 times or more firings per case as when using standard dies. I have been using Bonanza Benchrest FL Dies prior to this. I’ve never found the need for small base dies, as some recommend, for they really shorten case life.

This increase of case life is, in my opinion, truly astounding. Also, it appears case trimming is unnecessary. I would hope RCBS would make them in a wider array of caliber’s than currently available. I will buy more of them. When I think of the thousands of 5-6 times fired brass own out … Oh well!


Sorry about the long post but I thought you may find it useful.

Larry Gibson

[BruceB]

Larry,

MANY thanks.

STICKY NOMINATION!!!! (Or add to the Cast Boolit Articles, better yet.) There's so much solid info in this post of Larry's as to make it essential as a guide to not only our service rifles, but also, I suspect, many other semi-auto rifles.

Now then.... when I first ordered the Fulton rifle, I began assembling all the varied "stuff" I figured I'd need. Based on personal experience with three early M1A riifles (1982 or thereabouts) and two genuine TRW M-14s which I owned in Canada, I can testify that Larry's comments on head separations and case life are right on the beam. Because of that experience, and some reading about the X die, I tried to get a new die set which included the X sizer. No luck with that, so I settled for a standard small-base RCBS set. It is apparent that I still need to get the X-die!

My 7.62 NATO brass is all unfired pull-down Lake City stuff from Bartlett, with the primer pockets already swaged to eliminate the crimp. I figure to fire ALL the 700 cases once-each before starting over on the second firing for any case.

I found that the CCI #34 primers were seriously flat with the initial 168 Matchking load using 41.0 4895, but my chronograph is acting up and I'm not dead sure about the pressures and speed. It SHOULD be right in the ballpark, but we all know that each rifle is an individual.

I'm really pleased to see the cast data for 4895 and 4831. After trying the recipe from BobS with 4831 in the .30-06 Garand, I had placed tests with the same powder very high on the to-do list once I begin cast tests with the M1A.

Ah, it's a great feeling to have another brand-new project with a rifle type that I truly love...especially when I have at least forty-'leven OTHER cast-boolit projects also hollering for attention! Color me fickle, I reckon.

Thanks again, Senor Gibson....this is great information.

[mike in co]

i think i said this once before...but there are some serious wives tales about sizing brass for gas guns.

do not over work the brass!

size just enough to get relaible functioning.

the small base die should only be needed if and only if the brass will not size with a std die( and then function in your gun)

take several pc of brass , fired from your gun, and size them down at about 0.001" seat a bullet and see how the function and then go another thou. 2 maybe 3 thousands is more than enough in most guns. i have an ar15 that i NECK SIZE ONLY for, and one ar-10 that takes only 0.0005/0.0010 sizing to function at 100%.

quality dies......consistant neck tension....(pulling a button thru a neck is one of the worst things one can do that has adverse affect on accuracy....remember my m39 at the cast bolit shoot....could not hit a thing, and all do to necks screwed by a button)
for the record i'm using redding dies with neck bushings( i have both neck only and fl sizer with bushings).
i have seen an article on 308 where a single case was fired 50 times. all by using proper sizing.
the x die may work...no experience there.
ps: i have no idea how many reloads i have on my 308 brass..and have thrown none away yet !

[StarMetal]

This is a perennial topic, kinda like ".45 vs. 9mm" or "Best Guns & Loads for Deer."

They are not the same.

They are the same.

They are not the same, 'cause the .308 Win was released by Winchester several years before the Army standarized the T64E3 as the 7.62MM. You'll get an endless discussion of pressure specs, endless because SAAMI and the Ordnance Dep't measured pressure in different, unrelateable ways. Howver, the chamber drawings are different.

They are the same, 'cause nobody (and Clint's been looking for many years!) makes 7.62MM ammo that isn't to the .308 "headspace" dimension spec. So 7.62MM ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.

But in some 7.62MM rifles the chambers are long (to the 7.62MM military spec), notably the Navy Garands with 7.62MM barrels. Thus, using commercial ammo in such a rifle is not a good idea; you need stronger brass. Use military ammo or the best commercial only, e.g., Federal Gold Medal Match.

Most of the time it's a distinction without a difference. But if you intend to shoot .308 commercial in a military arm chambered for 7.62MM, first check the headspace with .308 commercial gauges first. You may get a surprise.

Jerry Kuhnhausen, in his classic Shop Manual (available from Fulton Armory; see the M1 Rifle Parts & Accessories or M14 Rifle Parts and Accessories Pages under Books) has published a somewhat controversial recommendation concerning .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO ammo, headspace & chambers. I broached the subject with him some months ago. He had his plate full, so we decided to chat on this in the future. When we do I'll report the results of our conversation.

I completely agree with Jerry that if you have a chamber with headspace much in excess of 1.636 (say, 1.638, SAAMI field reject), you must use only U.S. or NATO Mil Spec Ammo (always marked 7.62mm & with a cross enclosed by a circle) since the NATO mil spec calls for a far more "robust" brass case than often found in commercial (read .308 Winchester) cartridges. It is precisely why Lake City brass is so highly sought. Lake City brass is Nato spec and reloadable (most NATO is not reloadable, rather it is Berdan primed). Indeed, cheaper commercial ammo can fail at the 1.638 headspace (e.g., UMC) in an M14/M1 Garand. Many military gas guns (e.g., M14 Rifles & M60 Machine guns) run wildly long headspace by commercial (SAAMI) standards (U.S. Military field reject limit for the M60 & M14 is 1.6455, nearly 16 thousandths beyond commercial (SAAMI) GO, & nearly 8 thousandths beyond commercial (SAAMI) field reject limit!).

I also agree that 1.631-1.632 is a near perfect headspace for an M14/M1A or M1 Garand chambered in .308 Winchester. But I think that it also near perfect for 7.62mm NATO!

I have measured many, many types/manufacturers of commercial and NATO ammo via cartridge "headspace" gauges as well as "in rifle" checks. If anything, I have found various Nato ammo to be in much tighter headspace/chamber compliance than commercial ammo. Indeed, sometimes commercial ammo can not be chambered "by hand" in an M14/M1A with, say, 1.631 headspace (bolt will not close completely by gentle hand manipulation on a stripped bolt, although it will close & function when chambered by the force of the rifle's loading inertia), though I have never seen this with NATO spec ammo. I.e., if anything, NATO ammo seems to hold at the minimum SAAMI cartridge headspace of 1.629-1.630, better than some commercial ammo!

So, why set a very long 1.636 headspace in an M14/M1A or M1 Garand? It probably is the conflict mentioned above. Military headspace gauges say one thing, SAAMI headspace gauges say something else, as do the spec's/compliance covering ammo. In a court of law, who will prevail? I think Kuhnhausen gave all those who do this work a safe way out. However, I believe it not in your, or your rifle's, best interest. Whether you have a NATO chambered barrel (M14/M1 Garand G.I. ".308 Win."/7.62mm NATO barrels all have NATO chambers), or a .308 Winchester chamber, keep the headspace within SAAMI limits (1.630 GO, 1.634 NO GO, 1.638 FIELD REJECT). This subject is a bit confusing, and for me difficult to explain in a one way conversation!



Joe

[StarMetal]

7.62mm NATO (nee T-65) cartridges are not the same1, nor should they be considered interchangeable despite apparently identical external dimensions... the chamber drawings are in fact different.

But as Clint McKee and Walter Kuleck of Fulton Armory note on their "award-winning" website:

They are the same, 'cause nobody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn't to the .308 "headspace" dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.

.30 calibre rifle chamber graphic, courtesy of Steve Redgwell of http://www.303british.com; used with permission Olin 7.62 X 51mm While the 7.62mm NATO cartridge has a maximum chamber pressure of approximately 50,000 pounds per square inch (psi), in the SAAMI book the .308 Winchester has a MAP (maximum average product) pressure of approximately 62,000 psi* (each by conformal transducer measurements, and therefore comparable). This is not to say that all .308 Winchester loads will develop such pressures, merely that they would be within manufacturing tolerances if they did so. Firing .308 Winchester ammunition in a firearm specifically chambered for the 7.62mm NATO risks damage to the firearm and injury to the shooter.

* - This translates to approximately 52,000 cup (Copper Units of Pressure).
Chamber Headspace Gauges
.308 Winchester
GO: 1.630"
NOGO: 1.634"
FIELD REJECT: 1.638" 7.62 x 51mm NATO
GO: 1.635"

FIELD REJECT: 1.6455"
Chamber Pressures
.308 Winchester
MAP: 62,000 psi
MPSM: 66,000 psi
Minimum Proof Pressure: 83,000 psi
Maximum Proof Pressure: 89,000 psi 7.62 x 51mm NATO
Maximum: 50,000 psi

Proof pressure: 67,500 psi
Sources: .308 Winchester data from ANSI/SAAMI document Z299.4-1992, Pressure and Velocity, Centerfire Rifle Sporting Ammunition

7.62 x 51mm NATO headspace data from Jerry Kuhnhausen's M1/M1A shop manual.

Pressure data from TM 43-001-27: Army Ammunition Data Sheets Small Caliber Ammunition
And just when we thought that we had this 7.62mm NATO stuff down pretty pat, along comes Adam Firestone at Cruffler.com with his taste for the arcane, who makes a compelling brief that much of what many thought they "knew," was all wrong! An excerpt:

Many shooters are aware of the differences between the dimensionally similar 7.62mm NATO cartridge and the .308 Winchester. What most are not aware of is that all cartridges called "7.62mm NATO" are not created equal, and that there is significant variation, both dimensionally and ballistically, between 7.62mm NATO cartridges as manufactured by different countries, and even between such cartridges as manufactured by different arsenals within the same country. As a result, the terms "NATO spec" or "NATO standard," which imply that all "NATO" cartridges are the same or to indicate the fitness of given 7.62x51mm ammunition for a specific use, are misleading.

The Standard that Never Was: Debunking the Myth of NATO Standard Ammunition is an eye-opener... and iconoclastic! Once again, we need to challenge our perceptions.
1.- The specifications which have to be met in order for a round to be a NATO standard 7.62mm are very stringent, and apply to case, bullet, pressure, performance, etc. The composition and thicknesses of the case are, therefore rigidly controlled. There are no such specifications for commercial cases, which is something to keep in mind when selecting cartridges for firearms chambered for the NATO 7.62mm round.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Sorry about the rather long post.

Joe

[felix]

Nick and Tommy got a fantastic deal on NATO ammo made in India during the 80's. They both don't like to reload, because to them it is too much work. (Work is defined as something you'd rather be doing something else). This ammo shoots only slightly harder than a good cast load. Talk about being surprised!!! ... felix

[mike in co]

Sorry about the rather long post.

Joe
to continue joe's comments.
an example of a nato vs 308 win in an actual rifle. armalite chamber's thier ar-10s in 7.62 nato, not 308 win.
to get a bullet to touch the lands (when new !) a 175 gr bullet had to be seated 0.190" longer than the std(2.830-.030").
armalite had no comforting answer as to why they market a TARGET rifle (ar-10(t)) with a MILITARY chamber( lawyers !!!).

[StarMetal]

Mike,

When you had to seat that bullet .190 longer does the magazine give you plenting enough room?

Joe

[Blackwater]

Bruce, don't know if it'll work in your rifle, but one buddy's std. wt. SA M-1A REALLY shot with the 168 Sierra MK and a max. load of 3031. He got some 1/2" groups at 100 with that load.

Those M-14's are my absolute favorite "battle rifles" because I'm an old "bird hunter" that grew up shooting SxS's, and it took a LOT of learning to like the full pistol grip of the AR-15/M-16's. Prior learning is a VERY hard thing to overcome, and in a real defensive situation, I'll take that "regular" pistol gripped stock over a full pistol grip ANY day. I'm just too old to learn some things, and if I can move naturally and without thought, I'll be able to keep my mind where it ought to be.

The Garand has my heart, but the M-14 is even better if the chips are down, IMO. Us swabbies used M-1's to qualify with over at Paris Island. The just back from VN grunt jarhaid, was smirking like he'd just injested a healthy meall of briars as us swabbies took the line. When the first group came back, I could see his "fun" had been spoiled for his already-though-of smart-axx remarks. I just sat there, gloating. MAN, that was FUN! Wouldn't take a bright shiny new dime for that memory. ;)

Never did tell him Dad was one of those old China/3-war Marines, and he and some of his Marine buddies taught me to shoot. Would have completely spoiled MY fun! Hee hee hee! [smilie=1:

[mike in co]

Mike,

When you had to seat that bullet .190 longer does the magazine give you plenting enough room?

Joe

joe...not even close....single load for target work.
try hornady 130/135....it was the only bullet that hit the lands from a mag length load.
good, not excellent accuracy

[Bob S]

Bruce:

Plan on replacing the commercial bolt fairly soon. It seems like you couldn't go to a match in the early-mid 80's without at least one person experiencing a broken bolt in a rapid fire string. Sometimes the roller would just break and fly off, but frequently the journal would fracture also. It's good that you have the GI op-rod and hammer already. The op rod on my personal M1A cracked with less than 100 rounds through the tube. My receiver also broke ... Springfield replaced it without question, but still ....

My rifle was purchased in 1983; used for one season, and it's been in the safe ever since. I was issued a Navy Mk2-1 in 1985, and upgraded to a heavy Navy Match M14 in 1986. Had to give it back when I retired in 1993. :-(

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[StarMetal]

Bob s

Gee Bob and here I thunk all these years maybe the proponants for keeping the M14 over the then new M16 might have been right. Don't look like it..and we're talking alot newer manufacture here too. The things I heard about the M14 were it couldn't hold up under substained fire...such thinks as receiver cracked, gun caught on fire, etc. Hey for a civilian target rifle, it's great. I don't dispute that.

Joe
P.S. Oops..here we go another M16/M14 debate...I hope not.

[Bob S]

Joe:

We're talking M1A here, not M14. Quality wise, there is a world of difference.

My M1A was reworked and tweaked by the Navy match armorers from Crane, so I would not hesitate to bring it back to the line again ... but I have a Mouse Gun now. Much easier to shoot cleans.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

m1a's are cast recievers.......m-14's are forged..........

[Linstrum]

Hi, BruceB, how ya doin?

That is one fantastic rifle you have, the epitome of what John Garand intended.

I ordered and received my Springfield M1A in late 1984. On recommendation of the factory I got their standard barrel, probably ex-military. The rifle was a real piece of junk as far as accuracy went, running 6-inch patterns at 100 yards. I sent it back and they tuned it up pretty nice. They put in a reworked TRW-made match bolt, NM barrel, and fitted the gas piston so it does not touch anything with a cartridge in battery. The 100-meter five shot test target they sent back with it had the proverbial one ragged hole, and when I saw that I about fainted. It really will shoot that, but the ammo has got to be match grade. The stuff I throw together using Lee .308 Winchester dies with 165-grain Sierra Game Kings pushed with somewhere around 43 grains IMR4064 does 1.5-2 inches at 100 yards. I have never fired cast in it. I keep it with a full 20-round clip loaded with factory Remington Peters 150-grain soft points locked up out of sight. It may be locked, but all I need to do is push a secret pin with one finger to get the panel open and the rifle out ready to rock-n-roll. We get black bears down here in the back yard every once in a while, and they are MEAN!
About the rifle's accuracy, I paid Springfield Armory $830 for it 21 years ago. That was a pretty good piece of change back then for a rifle, so it should shoot good, and yours should be pretty darned close to mine with the setup you have.

[BruceB]

Howdy, group!

Yep, I do love the M-14-type rifles.

I went into the M1A buy with my eyes open, having researched very extensively on several rifle-dedicated forums before committing to the purchase. Although the early (cast) non-GI bolts were in fact prone to failure as Bob cited, they are now forged and apparently the breakage problem has been eliminated. Mine is definitely a forged bolt, as per its markings. The commercial EXTRACTORS continue to be a problem to some degree, and the "current wisdom" says that if the one in the rifle survives a few hundred rounds, then it should be OK. However, most of the experts in the rifle type recommend immediately installing a GI extractor, so I guess I'd best do that. I was watching a stripped GI M-14 bolt on Ebay last week, and it ended up selling at almost $100. For that sort of money, I think I'll just keep shooting this one for a while and see how it goes.

The rifle is now past the 200-round figure with Matchking loads, and has yet to have a bobble or malfunction of any sort. It also has not been cleaned or otherwise messed-with since its initial cleaning after it left its box. That is fairly impressive to me, getting perfect function of a semi-auto right from round #1, and considering that I'm using four different magazines.

Linstrum, I kept a pair of REAL US-issue TRW M-14s as house guns when we lived in the wilderness of the Northwest Territories, and they accounted for a number of bears right in the dooryard. I also used one of them as camp rifle in a trophy-hunting caribou camp in the Barren Lands north of treeline. Having twenty Nosler Partitions available at the touch of a finger is a VERY comforting feeling, when it's black dark and you KNOW there's a grizzly close by right out there! I had perfect faith that the rifle would not let me down, and it didn't.

It'll be a while before I find time to push some cast boolits through the M1A, but I'm already looking forward to it.

[Herb in Pa]

We were messing around a while back and hung an E2 stock, the muzzle brake, and the tripod on a full auto M1A and had a go from the hip!