Seat & Crimp Separately?

[alamogunr]

I see many statements that members seat their boolets and then crimp. I've never done this but it sounds as if it would give me a better product. I've never seen an explanation that details how this is done.

Do you use the seat and crimp die and just adjust it to seat the boolet first and then back off the seat stem and adjust the die to crimp? Or is a separate crimp die used?

[guicksylver]

Simple answer.. No

The reason being, when using a combination seating die the boolit is pushed further down into the case as the crimp is being formed.

In some extreme cases this could also lead to bulged cases.

By using separate dies, the boolit is first seated and then the crimp is formed.

The Lee crimp die is an excellent, inexpensive product and does its job well by creating a "factory" style crimp
and is fully adjustable.

Hope this helps.

Dan S.

[Jupiter7]

Usually seat and crimp consistency is directly related to brass length when using combo die. I use a separate crimp die for all pistol cartridges.

[357shooter]

For auto loaders that use a taper crimp, crimping as a separate step (in a separate station) after seating helps, the case isn't moving while crimping brass into the lead. Even if it's just a little bit. I find that doing it separately for revolver bullets makes it easier to adjust either seating depth or crimp independently.

As far as the Lee pistol FCD, the crimp that it applies is the same crimp as their seating die applies. What makes it different is the sizing ring that it uses. It's primarily designed for jacketed bullets and can swage down intentionally oversized cast bullets, through the brass. I don't use or recommend one when loading cast bullets.

[sig2009]

Yes. Always seat and crimp in separate dies.

['74 sharps]

On my revolver rounds, I seat & crimp in same operation and have never had any issues.

[Whitespider]

Depends.
Some dies, using some boolits with generous crimp groves, I have no problem doing it as a single step in a single die... others not so much.

[guicksylver]

OK I will show my age.

With most hand gun calibres used today a tapered crimp die used for auto loaders or a rolled crimp used on heavy calibres

with thick cases will probably not show any problems.

BUT try a combination seating , crimping die on a bottle neck cartridge such as a 38-40,44-40 or a 30-30 and

if it is not perfectly adjusted sooner or later you will end up with a collapsed case.

Also if you pull a boolit that has been seated and crimped in a tapered die you will see where the lead has been pushed

ever so slightly forward.

Just saying, best practices are best practices.

Dan S.

[454PB]

I seat and crimp in two separate steps. It has solved many accuracy and chambering problems.

[enfieldphile]

Word Up!

I like the Lee 4-die set, except for the FCD. Die # 3 seats the boolit. In auto pistol, I use a Lee Taper Crimp die. For revolvers, I use a Redding Profile Crimp die.

No one has mentioned press type. A 4-station press is really good for handgun ammo. I have the Lee classic cast (cast iron) 4-die station press. Die 1 resizes & decaps (new primer seated @ first station). Die 2 expands and powder is dropped. Die 3 seats boolit. Die 4 crimps.

The same process can be done on a single-stage press, just slot of die & brass swapping involved!


For auto loaders that use a taper crimp, crimping as a separate step (in a separate station) after seating helps, the case isn't moving while crimping brass into the lead. Even if it's just a little bit. I find that doing it separately for revolver bullets makes it easier to adjust either seating depth or crimp independently.

As far as the Lee pistol FCD, the crimp that it applies is the same crimp as their seating die applies. What makes it different is the sizing ring that it uses. It's primarily designed for jacketed bullets and can swage down intentionally oversized cast bullets, through the brass. I don't use or recommend one when loading cast bullets.

[mdi]

Seating and crimping in two steps is often recommended to new reloaders. Fewer problems and easier to set up. When I was reloading on a single stage I would run an empty case up into the die, run the die down 'till it touches the case, then back off. Then adjust the seating stem. After all the bullets are seated, I just re-adjust the die for crimping; back way of on the seating stem, and run the die down for a crimp. Works this way regardless of taper or roll crimp. Often when a new reloader, without a lot of experience adjusting dies, has problems with bulges or scraping lead (the crimp is being applied against the bullet while it's still moving, crushing/buckling the case), it's just mis-adjusted dies so separating the processes is the easiest solution...

Not a problem if you know how to "fine tune"/adjust the seating and crimping to happen simultaneously...

My solution is a 4 hole turret press with a dedicated profile crimp die in the 4th hole for my revolvers and an RCBS taper crimp die for my semi-autos.

[Maximumbob54]

I no longer try and combine any steps as it's just as easy to do everything one at a time and get better results across the board. I even prefer to deprime first and then clean before sizing instead of combining sizing and depriming.

[alamogunr]

OK! Several have said they crimp separately w/a crimp die. Do reloading manufacturers sell crimp only dies and are they different for taper crimp and roll crimp?

I am aware of the Lee FC dies. I am also aware of recommendations to not use them on handgun ammunition because of possibility of sizing the boolet.

[Ben]

Seating the bullet to the proper depth in one step and following up with a crimp in a separate step now for over 30 yrs.

Ben

[Char-Gar]

The whole purpose of seating and crimping in separate operations is to prevent lead being shaved from the bullet as the crimping case mouth contacts the side of the bullets as it is moving down to it's final resting place.

If matters not if you use two separate dies or adjust a single die as you set out in your original post.

It is OK to seat in crimp in one operation if you are roll crimping into a crimp groove on the bullets as there will be no lead shaved.

Use a taper crimp on auto pistol bullets or any other that does not have a crimp groove.

Use a roll crimp on bullets with a crimp groove.

I have no experience with the LEE FCD, so will just keep my mouth shut on that issue.

If you want to taper crimp you will need to buy a die just for that purpose.

If you want to roll crimp in separate operation, buy another used seating die on ebay as most have crimp rings in them. Just remove the bullet seating stem.

[alamogunr]

I didn't start this thread because I was having a problem. I agree it is somewhat tedious to adjust a seat & crimp die. But, once adjusted(per procedures posted as a result of another question), it does the job for me. I was curious why so many recommended separate operations and what die they used.

[alamogunr]

The whole purpose of seating and crimping in separate operations is to prevent lead being shaved from the bullet as the crimping case mouth contacts the side of the bullets as it is moving down to it's final resting place.

If matters not if you use two separate dies or adjust a single die as you set out in your original post.

It is OK to seat in crimp in one operation if you are roll crimping into a crimp groove on the bullets as there will be no lead shaved.

Use a taper crimp on auto pistol bullets or any other that does not have a crimp groove.

Use a roll crimp on bullets with a crimp groove.

I have no experience with the LEE FCD, so will just keep my mouth shut on that issue.

If you want to taper crimp you will need to buy a die just for that purpose.

If you want to roll crimp in separate operation, buy another used seating die on ebay as most have crimp rings in them. Just remove the bullet seating stem.

This was posted while I was making my last post. This was the information I was looking for. I may try to find a used seat die for one cartridge, as recommended, and try it out.

[blikseme300]

I have bought Hornady and Lee crimp dies as single units. The Lee FCD for rifle works very well but caution when using for auto pistol as it can swage down the boolit.

[jhalcott]

For many years I used a single set of dies to seat the bullets, Then readjust and crimp them in a second step. I purchased another set of dies and STILL crimp in a separate step. It's just the way I do it.

[mj2evans]

Once I started seating and crimping in two steps I stopped bulging 30-30 cases and swearing at myself. In retrospect I cannot see how I ever thought you could do both steps in one die at the same time.

[MT Chambers]

If you decide to crimp and seat in 2 steps, you do NOT need more then the seating die, use seating die to seat to proper depth, then remove seating stem and adjust die down to crimp, don't make it any more complicated or expensive then necessary.

[hardy]

This was posted while I was making my last post. This was the information I was looking for. I may try to find a used seat die for one cartridge, as recommended, and try it out.
Hi,alamogunr,before buying another die just try the next size up seating die you own to seat,then crimp with your "regular" die which will have the appropriate crimp style,..If you,re not having problems you won,t have to spend to find out if you prefer the two step process.Good luck,Mike P.S. I use a 44 seating die for my 38s and crimp with the 38 die.

[Changeling]

Seating and crimping in seperate operations opinion.

First off I agree with doing it in two steps!

The whole idea behind reloading cartridges is to make them as consistant as possible, that includes powder charges, length of cartridge (OAL).

To me, the case length is very important, I take the time to make ALL my cases the exact same length according to SAMMI standards, be it pistol/revolver/rifle.
How else are you going to control the volume of the cases as close as one can? I know it's a real PITA but it is necessary if you want consistant ammunition and accuracy. It is a very important step in creating the all important ammunition you depend on.
If you care!

[wallenba]

You can seat and crimp separately with the same die, just not at the same time obviously. I adjust my seater to not crimp, and then use another die with seater removed to crimp. Extra money sure. But I can adjust them and lock in position with a Hornady die lock ring. No fiddling again.

[alamogunr]

I see many statements that members seat their boolets and then crimp. I've never done this but it sounds as if it would give me a better product. I've never seen an explanation that details how this is done.

Do you use the seat and crimp die and just adjust it to seat the boolet first and then back off the seat stem and adjust the die to crimp? Or is a separate crimp die used?

Not trying to be a smart alec, but this was in my OP. The difference in some response posts points out that I should remove the seat stem completely. I may have found that out the hard way if I tried to crimp and only back the seat stem off some amount. I'll be trying it with the dies I have to see how it works.

I've got some .38 Spec. and .44 Spec ready to load. It may be a couple of weeks before I can get to it. When it warmed up here(I know, some of you may still be dealing with snow)everything started to grow, such as grass, weeds, etc.

[birddog]

I guess when time warrants I'll have to set up and load with and without the begrudged seating and crimping in one step and ring out the groups and see if there is enough difference in my hunting loads to justify it.
Charlie

[largom]

Yes you can just back off the seating stem and then crimp with the same die. Have the die backed off of crimping when seating then raise the seating stem and lower die to crimp.

Larry

[357shooter]

Word Up!

I like the Lee 4-die set, except for the FCD. Die # 3 seats the boolit. In auto pistol, I use a Lee Taper Crimp die. For revolvers, I use a Redding Profile Crimp die.

No one has mentioned press type. A 4-station press is really good for handgun ammo. I have the Lee classic cast (cast iron) 4-die station press. Die 1 resizes & decaps (new primer seated @ first station). Die 2 expands and powder is dropped. Die 3 seats boolit. Die 4 crimps.

The same process can be done on a single-stage press, just slot of die & brass swapping involved!
FYI, the Lee 4 die sets are a 3 die set with the FCD added. Die number 3 in the 4 die set will seat and crimp if thats how you set it up. If you don't use the Pistol FCD then there's no reason to buy the 4 die set, unless that's all you can get.

[357shooter]

Not trying to be a smart alec, but this was in my OP. The difference in some response posts points out that I should remove the seat stem completely. I may have found that out the hard way if I tried to crimp and only back the seat stem off some amount. I'll be trying it with the dies I have to see how it works.

I've got some .38 Spec. and .44 Spec ready to load. It may be a couple of weeks before I can get to it. When it warmed up here(I know, some of you may still be dealing with snow)everything started to grow, such as grass, weeds, etc.
FYI, Lee will sell a seating die separately for approx $11-13 if I remember right, plus shipping. You can order just the body if that's all you want. They work great as a dedicated crimp die in a four station press.

[62chevy]

For less than 20 bucks you can have the Lee FCD that can be adjusted for no crimp or full swaging of your boolit, mine are adjusted to just remove the flare the powder through die gives.

To answer you question I use two dies for seating and crimping. Why because adjusting the seating die was a total PITA.

[Shiloh]

Two separate steps for me.

Shiloh

[FThera]

Two steps here. But then I trim my 45 colt brass too.

[MtGun44]

The only time I do seating & crimping the same die is when using a boolit
design with a good crimp groove that will let me do it properly without
raising a ridge of lead. So, these are pretty much all revolvers.

All my semi-auto ammo is done with separate seater and crimp dies. Always.

Bill

[stu1ritter]

I load all my handgun (straight cases) using the seat/crimp single die. I have been loading .45ACP for about 40 years and have always used the single die and my accuracy has not suffered in bullseye shooting. I think it is a matter of becoming familiar with your particular die and how to adjust it.
Stu

[jonp]

2 steps after some advice on this forum. I bought a separate taper crimp die for the revolver rounds and 45ACP when I am running target loads and a seperate seat/crimp die for crimping only for the others.

Before I had the separate dies I used to back out the crimp and just seat all of the boolits then go back and readjust the die to crimp and do it again. A pain but not that big of a deal

[RobS]

OK! Several have said they crimp separately w/a crimp die. Do reloading manufacturers sell crimp only dies and are they different for taper crimp and roll crimp?

I am aware of the Lee FC dies. I am also aware of recommendations to not use them on handgun ammunition because of possibility of sizing the boolet.


Yes many manufactures make dies that are only designed for crimping and Lee also has taper dies for autos that are not the Factory Crimp Die style with the carbide ring. Also any seat/crimp die can be used to only crimp by backing out the seating part of the die so it doesn't perform that function and only crimps. These dies can also be used to only seat as well by adjusting the seating stem down far enough that the crimp function of the die is not in play.

[leftiye]

The whole purpose of seating and crimping in separate operations is to prevent lead being shaved from the bullet as the crimping case mouth contacts the side of the bullets as it is moving down to it's final resting place.

If matters not if you use two separate dies or adjust a single die as you set out in your original post.

It is OK to seat in crimp in one operation if you are roll crimping into a crimp groove on the bullets as there will be no lead shaved.

Use a taper crimp on auto pistol bullets or any other that does not have a crimp groove.

Use a roll crimp on bullets with a crimp groove.

I have no experience with the LEE FCD, so will just keep my mouth shut on that issue.

If you want to taper crimp you will need to buy a die just for that purpose.

If you want to roll crimp in separate operation, buy another used seating die on ebay as most have crimp rings in them. Just remove the bullet seating stem.

Geesh, I never thought of roll crimping into a driving band of a boolit! I think a two step crimp is just way more precise than forcing different length of brass to do the crimp into the lead - moving case - and boolit not moving thing. The crimps themselves will have less variation and deformation.

Everyone should be aware that roll crimps on revolver brass and others on non revolver cases done for two distinctly separate purposes. There are guns that pull the boolit out of the case (revolvers) and guns that push boolits back into the case (all the rest). And yes, there are those that roll crimp everything. Just be aware that revolvers are in a class by themselves. I myself don't have a taper crimp die. They size down boolits, not to mention deform them. Best used minimally into the backside of a driving band.

[MBTcustom]

Don't get wrapped around the axle with this. Unless you are going for a specific effect, or trying some new doo dad, there is no reason that you should feel like you have to buy a separate die for crimping.
After I fill all my brass with powder, I take the first one and put it in the press and drop the handle.
Then I screw the die down till I feel the case mouth and back off 1/2 a turn.
then I take a loaded cartridge from the previous run and replace the empty casing with the laoded one, and set my seating punch.
Put the charged case back in and seat a boolit.
Double check OAL with calipers and stuff all of em in.
Once all the boolits are seated, I back the punch off about 3 turns and put the example cartridge back in the press and drop the handle.
I simply screw the die down till I feel it bottom on the example cartridge.
I put one of the new caridges in there and crimp it.
If the crimp looks perfecto, then I run the rest of them through.

Now, I do use a separate crimp die on the Dillon, but unless you plan on loading progressive, I don't see the importance of buying another die.
Think about it: If you are loading a new batch, you're going to be adjusting stuff anyway. If you are loading something you have loaded before, then you have example cartridges to use as a setup gauge (which is a much better way to load than depending on your dies to stop the same place they did last time).

[44man]

No, never ever found any need to crimp separate. I have extra crimp dies but some boolits do not fit through so the profile dies are not used. I seat and crimp at one time and since nobody has ever shot revolver groups like I have, seems silly.

[cbrick]

I seat and crimp at one time and since nobody has ever shot revolver groups like I have, seems silly.

:mrgreen: Now that seems silly. Nobody Jim? Really?

I never seat and crimp in the same step. Either separate dies or re-adjust the same seating die to seat and then crimp.

Rick

[trucker76]

For me it depends on the bullet. I found I can seat and crimp my .45acp and .38spl loads at the same time as they both are taper crimp dies and the crimp is heavy enough to withstand recoil yet doesn't deform or shave the bullet. My .44 mag is another issue as I found that almost full house loads are most accurate so I use a heavy roll crimp on those.

[stu1ritter]

No, never ever found any need to crimp separate. I have extra crimp dies but some boolits do not fit through so the profile dies are not used. I seat and crimp at one time and since nobody has ever shot revolver groups like I have, seems silly.

Yeah, me too, and I only shoot snubbies.

Stu

[prs]

Gosh, we are all over the place with this. I load progressively in 5 stages. Stage 4 seats, 5 crimps. I did purchase a Lee die that has no other function than taper crimping for 45ACP and that die was inexpensive. For autoloaders, I crimp just enough to close the bell firmly against the case. For revolvers with crimp ring bullets, I could roll crimp and seat in one stage because I just crimp enough to gently set the brass against the lead without smooshing the lead. Carbide Factory Crimp Die, those are sitting in the cabinet unused unless I need one to use with the Lee bulge buster device for case prep; which is very seldom since I don't get to pick up other's range brass often.

prs

[mdi]

Yep, dedicated crimp die are made by most manufacturers. I use a Redding Profile Crimp die on my revolver rounds, .38/.357, and .44 Magnum...

[Char-Gar]

When the Redding Profile Crimp dies hit the market, they received glowing press in the gun rags. I immediately bought them in 38/357, 44 spl/mag, 45 Colt, 45 Auto Rim and 45-70 rifle. After years of their use, I hold the opinion they do not live up to their press. They are nothing more than a crimp die that combines taper and roll crimp features in one crimp. I don't find them to offer any advantages over a straight taper crimp or a straight roll crimp die.

If a fellow takes crimping seriously, then he should also take uniform case length and square case mouths seriously as well. Accuracy will suffer when ragged, uneven and different length cases are bulleted and crimped. It is OK for plinking ammo, but that is about the limit.

[RobS]

When the Redding Profile Crimp dies hit the market, they received glowing press in the gun rags. I immediately bought them in 38/357, 44 spl/mag, 45 Colt, 45 Auto Rim and 45-70 rifle. After years of their use, I hold the opinion they do not live up to their press. They are nothing more than a crimp die that combines taper and roll crimp features in one crimp. I don't find them to offer any advantages over a straight taper crimp or a straight roll crimp die.


I agree here and think the Redding profile crimp die works the brass more than needed.

[MT Chambers]

No, never ever found any need to crimp separate. I have extra crimp dies but some boolits do not fit through so the profile dies are not used. I seat and crimp at one time and since nobody has ever shot revolver groups like I have, seems silly.
Good joke!!

[wallenba]

Easiest way to do it with one seater/crimp die can be done like this.
First make a dummy cartridge.
Lock the die lock ring into it's crimp position when making it.
Then, with a .125'' spacer (used in 44spl/44mag dies) under the lock ring, set the seating depth with the dummy round.
When you want to crimp after seating, back the seater off and remove the spacer ring.
This way the die is locked into it's position with the die lock ring, you don't have to fiddle with it so much each time.

[GL49]

Once I started seating and crimping in two steps I stopped bulging 30-30 cases and swearing at myself. In retrospect I cannot see how I ever thought you could do both steps in one die at the same time.
That's exactly why I started using two steps. With my 550, it's not a problem, there's an extra station, on my single stage for just a few rounds, I just have one more step to go through.

[alamogunr]

Easiest way to do it with one seater/crimp die can be done like this.
First make a dummy cartridge.
Lock the die lock ring into it's crimp position when making it.
Then, with a .125'' spacer (used in 44spl/44mag dies) under the lock ring, set the seating depth with the dummy round.
When you want to crimp after seating, back the seater off and remove the spacer ring.
This way the die is locked into it's position with the die lock ring, you don't have to fiddle with it so much each time.

Not sure I understand this. Is a .125" spacer only good for .44Spl/.44Mag? Why wouldn't any thickness work as long as your seater didn't run out of adjustment? In other words, how critical is the .125" dimension?

I hope I'm not reading too much into your post.

[leftiye]

The spacer is to get your die to not crimp while you seat. Anything that is thick enough (say.060") to get you away from the crimp shoulder while seating is fine. P.S. Make dummy rounds to set the seating ram to get uniform length O.A. from one batch to the next (if it is a boolit you use a lot).

[wallenba]

Not sure I understand this. Is a .125" spacer only good for .44Spl/.44Mag? Why wouldn't any thickness work as long as your seater didn't run out of adjustment? In other words, how critical is the .125" dimension?

I hope I'm not reading too much into your post.

I suppose it needs explaining if you don't have or use these spacer rings. They come in several thicknesses, and used for switching dies back and forth from 38 spl and 357 magnum or 44 spl and 44 magnum. Here's a look, > http://www.midwayusa.com/product/189290/redding-die-spacer-kit?cm_vc=ProductFinding
You can use anything you want though to get the same result, repeatable settings.

[alamogunr]

Thanks! I was wondering why a 7/8" or 1"(bolt size) washer wouldn't work for just about any cartridge that you wanted to seat and crimp separately. I like the idea but I'm somewhat addicted to using 2 or 3 different boolets for various guns.

(EDIT) The light bulb came on! The thickness allows one to switch between .44 Spec and .44 Mag or .38 Spec and .357 Mag. Sort of ignores the utility of separating seating and crimping.

I'm going to try the washer trick and record it. Maybe I'm not as variable as I think. For sure washers are cheaper than additional dies.

[tazman]

The only cartridge I load that benefits from a separate crimp station is my 9mm. Since I use a 4 hole turret, the taper crimp die goes in the 4'th hole. Doing it as a separate operation put a complete stop to the feeding issues I had when doing the seat and crimp at once.
My 38/357 get roll crimped. The boolits I use have a generous crimp groove so no problems there.

[stinjie]

As long as there is a crimp groove for the brass move into,while the bullet is still moving,it can be done in one step.This works best if the brass is all trimmed to size.I've been loading for revolvers this way with great accuracy.For boolits with no crimp groove,I seat/crimp in 2 steps,with the crimp just a slight "nudge" to get to the brass lightly bite into the boolit.