7.65 Argentine

[tahoe2]

I just put together a Cavalry Carbine in 7.65x53 and I'm going to hunt with it, and I'm looking for
suggestions; as I don't have any casting equipment, I want to buy some and see how she shoots.
I slugged the bore @ .312" so I'm considering .313" or .314" ; so what brand & weight do ya'll
suggest ?? twist is 1 in 11" thanks everyone !!

[Larry Gibson]

Probably can get some cast bullets here on the WTB forum or someone might souvenir you some to test. I favor the 314299 cast soft slightly HP'd with a Forster 1/8" HP tool or a 150 WFN also cast soft and slightly HP'd for hunting.

This is the 2nd time in 2 days I've heard the 7.65 Argentine's have an 11" twist. While I don't have a Carbine I do currently have 4 different 7.65 Argentines; 3 M91 and a M1909 and have measured the twist on all. I also have measured the twist on numerous other 7.65 Argentines of M91 & M1909. Lyman states the twist is 9 5/8" and my measurements agree with that. Just wondering where the 11" twist figure comes from?

Larry Gibson

[afish4570]

Years... ago we took 3006 milt. brass....resized it in a 765 resizing die and trimmed the rather long neck off by using a drill powered trimmer. Some cut off necks alittle long with a hack saw. I just used my old Wilson Case trimmer powered by a var. speed 3/8 drill. Used a single cav. Lee 312185 mold with pretty good accuracy. Sized .312 or 313 using the old NRA formula lube.......Never hunted with it. Bullet seems to bump up ok and never had a leading issue. Try the traditional 2400 powder 16 gr. to start. Look for a faster load to hunt. Have fun. afish4570

[tahoe2]

I got the twist off of wiki-stupidia, I really have no idea? how do I measure that? thanks
in my previous statement "I want to buy some" I should have said "boolits" in that sentence.
I want to see how it shoots cast boolits, before I invest in all the equipment? She shoots jacketed
pretty fair but they are scarce.

[Larry Gibson]

Obviously wik-pedia isn't always correct. Your twist should be 9 5/8". You can measure the twist with a very tight bore fitting patch in a cleaning jag on a cleaning rod. Start the patch into the bore a couple inches from the breach end with the M91. I use a magic marker and mark the rod at the rear of the front receiver ring. Then back 12 - 15" I put a mark TDC (Top Dead Center) on the rod. The rod is then pushed slowly into the bore until that mark comes back up TDC. Be careful to let the rod turn with the twist. Then mark the rod at the rear of the receiver ring same as with the 1st mark. Pull the rod back out and measure between the 2 marks. If the rod/patch slips at all use a tighter patch. I generally do 3 measurements per barrel to make sure I've not forced the patch to slip. If all 3 of the measurements are the same (within .1 or 1/8") the measurement is good.

PM sent.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

Larry has you on the right track.
I use the 314299 currently when I shoot cast in my argies and that 16 gr of 2400 load is a top performer it's enough to hunt with out to 100 yds or so, and you don't need a fancy alloy or to water drop it either plain ol ww alloy is just about right.
the trick is finding a 314299 that pours a large enough diameter to work in your rifle. [try noe]
the argies have super huge throats and there have been some attempts at making molds that fit them from time to time.
I have an accurate mold that was designed to try and fill that cavern, it comes in a bit over 200grs and does pretty well at filling the magazine and feeding.
using 30-06 brass works well and is pretty easy to do, but you have to make sure the die set fit's your rifle.
I have a lee set and an rcbs die set, if I use the lee set the re-sized cases won't fit 2 of my rifles but will work just fine in the third [shrug]
however it does a very good job of making the initial size down of the 0-6 brass before trimming quite easy.

[MBTcustom]

Ive got to remeasure some things. I thought sure I had measured my twist at 1-11 but I might have misread.
My Argentine was reamed with a 30-06 reamer of some sort, but my throat problem appears to be the opposite of R5R's, in that I am getting lead rings at the end of the chamber. Never seen that before, but I think it's because I'm throwing a .316 boolit into a .313 hole. I'm going to see if they make a throating reamer that goes to .315, but I doubt it. I might have to make one somehow.

[tahoe2]

Thanks for all the info gents, both bores slug out @ .312" (did I mention I have two of them?) #1- a 1909 Cavalry Carbine and
#2- a 1908 Brazilian with a 1909 barrel & stock. I do reload and use Grafs or Prvi brass in 7.65x53 and Lee dies.

[tahoe2]

mold suggestions? in case I decide to continue in this direction, thanks

[runfiverun]

TIM 316 into 313 just ain't right. [think trailing edge failure thread and where that displaced lead has to go]
I know ian and myself have told you something about holding things straight with the barrel [and sloping sided boolits]
oversized just ain't the way to do it.... think correct sized/shaped. [0-6 brass helps]

Tahoe:
the above mentioned 314299 will usually work quite well without any fuss. [and does in mine]
at normal [yeah under the rpm wall] speeds.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-205B-D.png
this is the other one I have. [I size to 313 on the base bands for my 312 barrels [notice the sloping angle from there?]
tom also makes a 240gr version which would just about fill an argies throat :lol:

[largom]

Ive got to remeasure some things. I thought sure I had measured my twist at 1-11 but I might have misread.
My Argentine was reamed with a 30-06 reamer of some sort, but my throat problem appears to be the opposite of R5R's, in that I am getting lead rings at the end of the chamber. Never seen that before, but I think it's because I'm throwing a .316 boolit into a .313 hole. I'm going to see if they make a throating reamer that goes to .315, but I doubt it. I might have to make one somehow.

Tim, PTG will make any size throating reamer you want and with the leade you want.

Larry

[MBTcustom]

Yes, I know about PTG, but once I get the reamer made, what are the chances I would ever need it again?
Also, I made a typo with the previous post. My boolits are sized exactly .315 not .316.
Yes, that's at the top end of oversize, but there are some who recommend shooting a boolit sized .313 in a .308 groove barrel!
Point is, I'm going to do another chamber slug (I seem to have misplaced the first one[smilie=b:) and take a closer look at the throat on this rifle. I could see .002 oversize maybe not shooting quite as well as .001 or .0015, but to shave lead and pile it up in front of the case mouth? Very very strange. Like I said, never seen that before.

[runfiverun]

it's pretty common on many of the new semi-auto pistols.
the chamber just ends and the rifling begins all at once, it seems like there isn't a leade at all.
they have trouble with lead build-up too, it seems to me that the lead is just peeled away by the square faced rifling instead of it [the boolit] getting a chance to displace as it engages the rifling in the tapered throat.

[Larry Gibson]

I also favor the 314299 in most all my .31s especially the 7.65 for excellent accuracy and overall performance. When cast soft and slightly HP'd with the 1/8" Forster HP tool they expand very well and provide excellent terminal effectiveness to 150 - 200 yards when started at 1900 fps or so. Here is a picture of the HP'd 314299.

Larry Gibson

104305

[warboar_21]

I have some 314299 that are sized to .314" They are water dropped wheel weight. I don't have a hardness tester so I don't know the exact hardness would be. They shoot well in both of my Enfields. I can send some to you if you would like to try the 314299 before you buy one. PM me and I will try to get them out. Others have done the same for me so it's only right that I do the same.

[runfiverun]

they would be about 18-20 bhn but will act like ww alloy on game.

Larry's little hollow point cup would really help this boolit in deer sized game, it has enough sectional density to penetrate very well, a little expansion wouldn't hurt anything.

[MBTcustom]

Not to hijack the thread any further, but I wanted to let you know that I reslugged my chamber tonight and took a real close look at it. It explained everything. There is no throat on this rifle whatsoever. It looks like there is but the micrometer and a fingernail around the slug tells a different story. It's .313 all the way to the neck. I doubt the "reamer" they used had a pilot at all.

[Mr Peabody]

I'm having pretty good results using the 312290, sized at .312. Take a look a Beartooth Bullets if you want to buy a few well cast ones to try out.

[Larry Gibson]

I really learned the hard way not to have a bullet sized larger than the initial throat diameter too! Sounds like you both need a throating reamer. Wish I could help out the but I don't have one. Can they be rented from the reamer rental site?

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

All I could find in both the reamer rental places was a "303" throating reamer, which I can only assume is .312 for a 303 british which is just this side of useless to barrel that has a groove of .313.
However, im going to try something else that might just work. Im going to take a piece of 3/8" rod and turn it down to <.340. Im going to dress a pencil point on it and lap a throat in the rifle.
If that doesnt work, then im going to throw this barrel in the "tomato stake" bin and ream a 308 barrel with the XCB reamer. Voila: tight necked 30-06, and a one fingered salute to janky mil-surp barrels!
LOL!

[runfiverun]

you could shoot some lappers down the thing and follow it up with a thousand or two fmj's.

[cainttype]

All I could find in both the reamer rental places was a "303" throating reamer, which I can only assume is .312 for a 303 british which is just this side of useless to barrel that has a groove of .313.
However, im going to try something else that might just work. Im going to take a piece of 3/8" rod and turn it down to <.340. Im going to dress a pencil point on it and lap a throat in the rifle.
If that doesnt work, then im going to throw this barrel in the "tomato stake" bin and ream a 308 barrel with the XCB reamer. Voila: tight necked 30-06, and a one fingered salute to janky mil-surp barrels!
LOL!


Tim, I have friends that make and use half-reamers for many of their pet projects. They aren't as pretty as fluted reamers, but do perfect cuts when used by these gentlemen (lots of oil, tiny bites...slow is good).
Perhaps you could investigate the idea. It could serve you well for as long as you continue working on firearms.

[MBTcustom]

Tim, I have friends that make and use half-reamers for many of their pet projects. They aren't as pretty as fluted reamers, but do perfect cuts when used by these gentlemen (lots of oil, tiny bites...slow is good).
Perhaps you could investigate the idea. It could serve you well for as long as you continue working on firearms.

I have made and used such things quite a bit, but they take quite a bit of time to create, and time is something I am in short supply of. I think the lap will work as good as anything else, and if it doesn't I'm not torn up about it. As barrels go, this one is no peach, so I need an excuse to keep it, as I would much prefer to screw on a proper barrel.

[tahoe2]

Hey goodsteel, I took a gander at that link. I don't want to "Blow them to bits" !!
I just want to kill what I shoot. A 1/2" in and 1" out is ok with proper placement.