Lead poisoning from bulle casting

[tazman]

Here is some information for those of you still skeptical about the possibilities of getting lead poisoning from bullet casting.

http://www.oem.msu.edu/userfiles/file/ABLES/LEAD%20HAZARDS%20FROM%20CASTING%20BULLETS-c07-10-09.pdf

http://www.epi.hss.state.ak.us/bulletins/docs/b2001_17.htm

http://www.uscupstate.edu/uploadedFiles/About_upstate/Planning_and_Organizational_Development/Training/lead_awareness.pdf

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/14288-melting-lead-hazardous-page-2.html

http://www.mass.gov/lwd/labor-standards/occupational-lead-poisoning-registry/firing-ranges-employers-guide.html

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/lead.html

These are just a few of the many sources of information on this topic available online. OSHA even has a file out that you can access. There was a discussion on a thread yesterday and this morning where many seemed to think there was little or no danger from casting bullets.
I spent my 40 year career working with molten lead and know how dangerous it can be.
The safety rules to follow are simple and inexpensive. Safety is easy to achieve if you follow basic rules.
BUT you do have to follow them or you put yourself and your family at risk.

[Tatume]

Thank you for the information. It is much appreciated.

[jmort]

Error on the side of common sense with lead as far as I am concerned. There is both hype and hysteria but the fact remains that no eating, drinking, smoking and decent ventilation makes sense. I think it was geargnasher who said the downwind side of his ventilation system was way positive for the presence of lead based on testing. Makes sense. Thanks. For all the links.

[bangerjim]

OMG........you mean that a single one pound ingot of lead stored in a basement of a 10 story apartment will not kill the canary on the 8th floor? The greenies sure say it will!!!!!!!!

Gotta love those tree-kissers and owl-huggers.

banger
.......lead-based paint chips.....the breakfast of champions!

[cdngunner]

Should post this then


Once lead toxicity has been confirmed, there are various things you can do to detoxify it from your system. Here are five recommendations:

1. Increase your dietary calcium intake. Calcium and lead compete for absorption in the intestine. Therefore, if the diet contains adequate calcium, ingested lead will pass through the gastro-intestinal tract and be excreted from the body.

2. Invest in a Vitamin C with bioflavonoids supplement. This helps to neutralize the effects of lead in the body.

3. Infrared sauna therapy has a deeply detoxifying effect on the body. Infrared saunas are becoming widely recognized for their detoxification benefits. They can be found in healing centers, spas, fitness centres, etc.

4. Bentonite Clay is an excellent substance to help pull heavy metals out of your body. Once ingested, the clay binds to the positive oriented molecules (in this case the lead) and pulls them out of the body through waste elimination. Since clay is negatively charged, the positively charged molecules are instantly attracted to it. This has proved to be a very effective way to eliminate other waste products from the body. Essentially, Native tribes , and some birds and animals have been ingesting clay for many centuries.

5. Chlorophyll is a great substance to help chelate heavy metals out of your body. Foods like cilantro, chlorella, spirulina, and wheat grass are all excellent food to help boost the nutrient content in the blood in an effort to provide the body with the appropriate tools to flush harmful substances out.

When determining whether or not you have lead toxicity, always tune into your body. More often than not, your intuition will guide you down the right path. Use the recommendations to help clean your body out, however, always consult with a health professional for the best approach.

[tazman]

The greenies go overboard about everything.
Safety using lead is easily achieve with a few simple precautions. Good ventilation and washing your hands before consuming anything being the 2 most important.

Your body will also get rid of it naturally over a period of time if the exposure is not continued.

The above post has some interesting suggestions I haven't seen before and don't know anything about.
I will need to check that out.

[str8shot426]

OMG........you mean that a single one pound ingot of lead stored in a basement of a 10 story apartment will not kill the canary on the 8th floor? The greenies sure say it will!!!!!!!!

Gotta love those tree-kissers and owl-huggers.

banger
.......lead-based paint chips.....the breakfast of champions!

Bunny huggin, bird watchers!

[Old Caster]

In my group of Bullseye shooters there are quite a few casters and quite a few who shoot indoor matches. I cast way more than all of them and they shoot indoors when I no longer will. I have a normal level of lead and they all have elevated levels. Indoor shooting is far and away the best way to get high levels. I also cast in an open garage but would even if lead wasn't a threat because the dirt and other items in lead make enough smoke to make me not want to do it inside.

[Dale in Louisiana]

People be droppin' left an' right!

dale in Louisiana

[Buck Neck It]

The most likely way to be killed by lead is to be shot. Or have a sailboat keel fall on you.

[tazman]

The most likely way to be killed by lead is to be shot. Or have a sailboat keel fall on you.

Very true.
The ones who have lead poisoning only wish they were dead.

[Beagle333]

I don't know if I'm doin' it safely or not, but my lead level was 2 back before I ever started casting and it's still 2 as of two weeks ago.

[tazman]

I don't know if I'm doin' it safely or not, but my lead level was 2 back before I ever started casting and it's still 2 as of two weeks ago.

You have to be doing something right or it would be higher than that. My last test before I retired was 7 which was the highest it ever got.

[Charley]

Have my lead levels checked every year, long with the other blood work on my physical. Below the recommended threshold. Spent many years working with pesticides, exposure to most any antagonist is an issue. Limit exposure by following good handling practices, and you won't have any problems.

[MT Gianni]

I have been casting and shooting lead for over 20 years and last tested as less than 1%.

[DLCTEX]

Mine was 1. Just take reasonable precautions. No eating or drinking while casting and wash afterwards.

[dakotashooter2]

I smelt probably once a year and cast maybe 4-5 times and take reasonable precations. Every time I have my blood tested it comes back clear or barely discernible. Heck, I spent my youth holding lead fishing sinkers in my mouth till I was ready to put them on the line. Personally I have more concern about the farm chemicals I inhale as I drive around the back roads every day.

I think the lead paint thing is the most overblown. If it was such an issue my whole generation should be mentally disabled or dead...................

[bangerjim]

I smelt probably once a year and cast maybe 4-5 times and take reasonable precations. Every time I have my blood tested it comes back clear or barely discernible. Heck, I spent my youth holding lead fishing sinkers in my mouth till I was ready to put them on the line. Personally I have more concern about the farm chemicals I inhale as I drive around the back roads every day.

I think the lead paint thing is the most overblown. If it was such an issue my whole generation should be mentally disabled or dead...................

The lead paint scare was for rug-rats in slums, tenements, and ghettos in Democrat-run big cities......chewing on woodwork and doors.

I rest your case "......whole generation mentally disabled"........!!!!!!! Look at the voting records of those particular aforementioned citizens!!!!!!!

banger

[MaryB]

No factual evidence in any of those links, just hysteria designed to make lead sound evil. I have been using lead solder for 40 years now and my lead levels have never been elevated. Lead evaporation temperatures are 1578 degrees f.

[C. Latch]

"......whole generation mentally disabled"........!!!!!!! Look at the voting records of those particular aforementioned citizens!!!!!!!

banger


You may be on to something there! :(


I have two small children (1 year and 2.5 year) and I take the precautions seriously.

[MtGun44]

Yes, one should be careful, but some of that stuff you posted is just
ridiculous. I have been casting and reloading for 50+ years and have
had my lead checked regularly over a large part of that time. The
only thing that ran my lead count up was when I was shooting 3-4 hours
a week on a poorly ventilated indoor range - until I started being more
careful about washing hands afterwards.

Yes - lead is toxic, but a lot of the stuff that is said about it is just ridiculous.

THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE is to never eat, drink or smoke with lead
contaminated hands. Most of the lead is ingested, NOT breathed in - unless
you are on an indoor range with huge amounts of lead dust.

If you are in your reloading/casting area - wash hands well before doing
anything in a food prep area, or whenever leaving the area for any reason
where you may be touching something associated with eating or drinking.
If you are careful about this, you will be fine.

Children need to be treated much more carefully than adults, when dealing
with lead. They are far more susceptible to injury because they are growing
new nerve cells.

Be careful, but some of these folks with the lead hysteria are primarily anti-gun
so delight in promulgating silly and unnecessary rules.

Bill

[David2011]

OK, I’ve learned a lot reading the information in the provided links. (Tongue planted firmly in cheek.) All of my smelting is done outdoors. Even though I only bring clean dry ingots into my casting area they must sit and generate dust as I have a 100 chance of having lead dust in my casting area. Rubber gloves will protect me from molten lead! I had never thought of that. I am exposing myself to lead vapors even though I have never gotten a pot of lead to anywhere near 900 degrees.

I readily accept that tumbling media carries lead particulates. My tumbling media is treated with Nu-Finish and mineral spirits which seems to mitigate the dust. My personal opinion, not backed by any science (does common sense apply?), is that shooting indoors and tumbling dust are the greatest exposures. I don’t smoke, don’t eat in the casting area and rarely chew gum. I fail to see how chewing gum is an issue if you start before handling lead and don’t play with the gum once you start. I usually have a bottle of water available while casting but I don’t handle the mouth of the bottle so again, common sense suggests that there is no lead on the mouth of the bottle. I wash up after casting with Fast Orange hand cleaner with pumice in it. Actually, when casting I rarely handle lead with bare hands. I load the cold pot with my bare hands but after that, everything is picked up using tongs and large spoons while wearing welding gloves. The first time I handle the boolits with bare skin is usually when they’re run through the sizer. I observe the same sanitation precautions when loading boolits into ammunition and when shooting as when handling wheelweights, smelting and other casting activities.

The low lead level of the wife in the Alaska paper suggests that she was not getting significant exposure from the husband’s clothing. Based on less than adequate information for a complete analysis and conclusion, that contradicts the warnings in the Michigan and New Jersey warnings to not bring contaminated clothing into the home. We also do not know anything about the temperature at which he was melting metal.

I would assume that range berm mining would create a higher exposure than most lead handling activities since the impact of boolits would break them into fine particles.

Break's over; back to the shop to mess with lead.

David

[leadman]

I was a trained OSHA Hazardous waste worker and a safety officer in my last job.
Lead does leave the pot, probably attached to some other substance. I tested my casting area several times with the breakable vials with a swab in the end. Always tested positive for lead. Also cleaned and tested an aluminum plate and hung it around my neck. found out the fan behind me was swirling the air from over the lead pot and depositing it on the plate, and me. I moved the fan (20" box) to the other side of the pot and it and everything in the path of the forced air tests positive for lead.
My pot never goes over 800 degrees with most casting being done at 600 degrees or so.
My lead level when I was casting and making shot almost every day had risen from 3 to 12 before the fan changes. I followed the Minnesota diet for lead exposed children and it was back to 3 in about 2 months.
The OSHA actionable level is 40 so you do not want to even get close to this level. At 12 the base of my fingernails had turned purplish and my teeth had a funny feel to them.

Buy a lead testing kit from Home Depot or other same type stores and use it to test your area. Well worth the money.

[Old Caster]

Lead levels vary greatly state to state. What looks high in one place can be normal in another. If I remember correctly years ago, I heard that Illinois, Pennsylvania, and California were near the top. I expected that Missouri would be at the top because we have lead that is not combined with any other element that is right in our creeks where you can clearly see it in some areas.

[tazman]

Lead levels vary greatly state to state. What looks high in one place can be normal in another. If I remember correctly years ago, I heard that Illinois, Pennsylvania, and California were near the top. I expected that Missouri would be at the top because we have lead that is not combined with any other element that is right in our creeks where you can clearly see it in some areas.
I didn't know that. How accessible is it?
Would it be such that you could dig it up?

[Old Caster]

When lead was first mined in Missouri, it was picked up as rock and put into a container and crushed while water was poured over it and the lead would settle to the bottom and the crushed rock would float out. If you would google St. Joe and or Bon Terre mines you will find info about this. If I remember right Bon Terre meant something like great earth and the French first owned it.

[Mk42gunner]

Lead levels vary greatly state to state. What looks high in one place can be normal in another. If I remember correctly years ago, I heard that Illinois, Pennsylvania, and California were near the top. I expected that Missouri would be at the top because we have lead that is not combined with any other element that is right in our creeks where you can clearly see it in some areas.

I have read and I can't remember where, that major cities had dangerous levels of lead when gasoline had lead in it. Lead has been gone from easily available gas for a couple of decades.

Would I paint the interior of my house with lead based paint now? No. Am I worried about any possible lead based paint still in my house? Again no. Will I eat paint chips? I never did when I was a kid and it was everywhere, so why start now?

I will say that red lead primer and lead based paint covered better and lasted longer than the replacements on board ships in the 1980's. Needle gunning the old paint off probably put more lead dust in the air than anything else I have done, including using the Navy's range trailers.

A little bit of common sense goes a long ways to staying healthy.

Robert

[GrizzLeeBear]

In my group of Bullseye shooters there are quite a few casters and quite a few who shoot indoor matches. I cast way more than all of them and they shoot indoors when I no longer will. I have a normal level of lead and they all have elevated levels. Indoor shooting is far and away the best way to get high levels. I also cast in an open garage but would even if lead wasn't a threat because the dirt and other items in lead make enough smoke to make me not want to do it inside.

Indoor shooting is definitely a contributor to a lot of shooters having elevated lead levels. Many indoor ranges also have bans on shooting lead bullets as a good many people are under the false impression that the lead is coming from the bullets. Very, very little lead comes from the bullets, even after they are smashed on the plates at the back of the range. The lead that can be inhaled or picked up on the surfaces are from the PRIMERS, both centerfire and rimfire. These ranges are running under a false sense of security and may be unwittingly contributing to shooters lead exposure because people aren't taking other precautions such as washing hands, etc. before eating or smoking. They think they don't have to worry about it because they aren't shooting lead bullets. They don't realize that the lead they have to worry about most is the lead that is vaporized in the air by the primers, not the bullets.

[MaryB]

I would suspect that most of the lead reloaders are exposed to comes from cleaning cases. I am going to all wet cleaning, stainless pin tumble and if needed a bath in the ultrasonic cleaner.

[Old Caster]

None of all us Bullseye shooters have ever noticed any rise in our lead levels unless we shoot indoors even though a fair amount of us cast, and all of them shoot lead. Whether the indoors problem is due to the primers or lead smacking the backstop I have no idea. I understand some ranges have backstops now that incorporate water but don't know of any around here. Maybe someone who goes to one of those ranges might ask what they have and how it works.

Bear in mind that the guys that shoot once a week indoors in a 600 match do not have a problem great enough for them to quit. I had higher levels than everyone because I was the range officer and called the line for all three relays. The place we shot was modern and had special fans on the roof but I have a feeling they were rarely on in the winter because it took all the heat away and made it expensive. That place is now closed and a new group is in the building and they have more and different fans on the roof. I have never shot there.

After I found I had high lead levels, I quit shooting indoors but didn't quit casting or reloading and my lead levels went back to normal within 6 months. If cleaning brass or molding bullets made your lead levels rise, mine would be higher than it is.

[BAGTIC]

Bon Terre means Good Earth

[BAGTIC]

It is known that lead levels were much higher near heavily traveled roads, Some of this would have been due to auto exhaust and another connection is that these areas were also often the low income housing areas.

[fredj338]

In my group of Bullseye shooters there are quite a few casters and quite a few who shoot indoor matches. I cast way more than all of them and they shoot indoors when I no longer will. I have a normal level of lead and they all have elevated levels. Indoor shooting is far and away the best way to get high levels. I also cast in an open garage but would even if lead wasn't a threat because the dirt and other items in lead make enough smoke to make me not want to do it inside.
^^THIS^^^ My lead levels are under 10, been shooting & casting for 35+ yrs. I do shun indoor ranges like a liberal fund raiser though, really bad shooting indoors, even with the best ventilation.

[Shiloh]

Common sense is the rule here.

Either you are casting or eating a sandwich. Not both.
Wash your hand when done, or when you have to be interrupted from your task. Gotta change the baby (grand baby), feed the dog?? Wash your hands. Ventilation is very important. Get rid of slag, or put it into a closed container. Oxides of heavy metals particularly lead, is pure poison.

Shiloh

[goofyoldfart]

I would like to thank all of the contributors for all the info given. It all boils down to common sense (a sometimes rare commodity:shock:). the greatest lead number I have had was when I was working in the steel mill (had a 11) and was getting stomach cramps. doctor told me what to so As to diet and in two months I was back from 11 to a 1. mine was caused by lead base paint in my coffee cup from mexico. I now use only insulated Stainless Steel cup. God Bless to all and theirs. P.S. I was also to quit useing the damn coffee cup.[smilie=s:

[captaint]

The only time my levels went up (to 22, which is high normal) is when I was shooting rimfires indoors in a non ventilated room. I knew immediately what it was when the doc said I was up to 22. When I left the indoor range and went outside I could immediately taste something weird in my mouth. Every time. Since I stopped shooting indoors, my levels have gone back down to 6 or 7. I empty my tumbler outside by hand. I wash up immediately afterwards also. All my casting and lead melting is done outside. Mike

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

First off, Thanks Tazman for the thread. Good stuff to keep in mind. However, there are a few things that seem to be a bit overkill. Had my level checked in February. It was 4 (don't remember the units).

I hope everyone is following this:
Use rubber gloves and dust mask with special filters for lead when handling solid lead ingots

[tazman]

There probably are some things in there that go far beyond what a normal reloader needs. I expect much of it is focused on industry where lead is used heavily and precautions required to be safe.
Most reloaders just need simple and easy steps. Ventilation and cleanliness will take care of almost all of the issues.

[Elkins45]

A lot of it is based on frequency of exposure. People working in industry often are around the stuff eight hours a day. I rarely get in a casting session more than a couple of times a month, and my casting is either done outdoors or in a detached garage. I would be very surprised if my Pb level were elevated, but I will confess it has never been tested.

[Smoke4320]

for about 48 years I have been drinking from copper pipes soldered with 50/50 lead..
for 10 years I worked for a plumbing supply .. handled solder, lead sheets and 5 LB ingots daily..( If I just knew I would someday be casting ..all that lead I could have purchased CHEAP)
casting for a year indoor just beside an open door ..during summer there is a fan behind me blowing out the door Not so in the winter just the open door
NO lead increase in my blood in any of that time

[Old Caster]

Bear in mind that in the 1960's 60 micrograms per deciliter was considered the top level that was acceptable. Each ten or so years after that, the figure went down and finally to the point that in some places a normal or typical amount for the area is above what is now acceptable. I don't remember anyone here ever being treated for high lead levels even in the 60's but no one I knew ever ate paint flaking off the walls either. People in Missouri typically run around 10 .

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

People in Missouri typically run around 10 .

Is that why they pronounce it "Ma-sur-ah"?:kidding:

[dondiego]

Pure lead pipe still supplies drinking water to homes in many municipalities and has done so for many years. One of my main sources of lead for casting is to stop by constriction sites and ask if they have dug up any lead pipe. I have a friend who still has a lead .22 bullet in his hip that the doctors didn't want to remove.????????????????????????????????????

[tazman]

Pure lead pipe still supplies drinking water to homes in many municipalities and has done so for many years. One of my main sources of lead for casting is to stop by constriction sites and ask if they have dug up any lead pipe. I have a friend who still has a lead .22 bullet in his hip that the doctors didn't want to remove.????????????????????????????????????

The lead pipe in the can sometimes be a problem for people if the inside of the pipe isn't all coated with lime from the water.

I have heard about the lead bullet inside some one's body before and have no idea why it doesn't seem to cause a problem for them. I never heard of anyone getting lead poisoning from an imbedded bullet.

[MaryB]

Body encapsulates the lead plus blood is not acidic so it doesn't dissolve the lead. Same for lead water pipes, most water supplies tend to be basic and not acidic.

[10x]

for about 48 years I have been drinking from copper pipes soldered with 50/50 lead..
for 10 years I worked for a plumbing supply .. handled solder, lead sheets and 5 LB ingots daily..( If I just knew I would someday be casting ..all that lead I could have purchased CHEAP)
casting for a year indoor just beside an open door ..during summer there is a fan behind me blowing out the door Not so in the winter just the open door
NO lead increase in my blood in any of that time

I have been casting bullets since 1965. And I have had lead levels checked before, during and after casting sessions. Also after sessions in a poorly ventilated indoor range.
I don't eat or drink or touch my lips while handling lead, nor do I do so when I deprime fired cases. I am careful with the tumbling media as well.

I know folks who have gotten lead poisoning who worked in the plastics industry and who worked with leaded gasoline. Also guys who did renovations where there was lead paint.
Follow some basic procedures, - no eating, wear gloves, no touching lips or drinking beverages, keep from breathing the hot air over your lead pot and your lead levels won't change much, if at all.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I have been casting bullets since 1965.

Is that your final answer? I thought it was 1966?
Either way...impressive.:cool:

[mpmarty]

My lead levels are just fine thank you. Got plenty already in ingots. I look at it like my cholesterol levels I never get tested so never worry about it either. I'm seventy-five yrs old and stay healthy by NEVER going to a doctor.

Remember, doctors kill more people than guns.

[10x]

Is that your final answer? I thought it was 1966?
Either way...impressive.:cool:

Could have been 1966..... Either way, lead poisoning isn't a problem...

[fredj338]

My lead levels are just fine thank you. Got plenty already in ingots. I look at it like my cholesterol levels I never get tested so never worry about it either. I'm seventy-five yrs old and stay healthy by NEVER going to a doctor.

Remember, doctors kill more people than guns.
Certain amount of truth there. Then again, @ 75, not much is going to shorten your life span. IMO, it's what you do to your body @ 20-25 that comes back to bite you after 50. Cast on!

[Old Caster]

Is that why they pronounce it "Ma-sur-ah"?:kidding:
Actually people that were born here pronounce it Mis sur ee as it is spelled. I have no idea where that comes from unless possibly through the college football team.

[rhead]

The lead pipe in the can sometimes be a problem for people if the inside of the pipe isn't all coated with lime from the water.

I have heard about the lead bullet inside some one's body before and have no idea why it doesn't seem to cause a problem for them. I never heard of anyone getting lead poisoning from an imbedded bullet.

Because metallic lead is relatively harmless unless it makes a hole in a vital organ. it is the lead compounds that are toxic.

[10x]

Because metallic lead is relatively harmless unless it makes a hole in a vital organ. it is the lead compounds that are toxic.

Right on! Lead oxides in paint (still sold for some commercial applications), Lead oxides in plastic to colour it, tetra ethyl lead in special purpose (Aviation) fuel, lead in batteries. The list of sources of lead for lead poisoning is a long one.
The metal lead by itself is fairly benign - in a compound lead is taken up in the food chain very quickly.
It is still unknown if the lead found in lead shot studies in waterfowl and other birds is really from lead shot or other sources like the 22 million tonnes of tetra ethyl lead that came out of the tail pipes of auto mobiles every year between 1923 and 1973...

[FLHTC]

All of the web sites posted are government based so i don't even bother opening them. Sure lead is toxic but so are many other substances in our environment but it's odd how lead becomes one of the few targets. How many are dying at epidemic rates, due to lead poison? The government (Aberdeen Proving Grounds) can litteraly destroy the aquatic balance of the Chesapeake bay and we have to worry about lead poisoning? We don't eat bullets but we do eat crab, clam and fish. I've heard too many stories come out of military retirees to beileve a single word of caution from the government. They do more to kill me than i could possibly do myself, even if i tried.

[Aunegl]

An oldie but a goody:

[wch]

I asked 3M about a respirator for smelting lead and they told me to buy the 3M8223 respirator; about $10.00 on the internet.