405 Win again

[Bullshop]

This is kinda continued from the old board on the 405 that wants to be a 416 thread. To refresh memory I have been working with several different boolits as time allowes through the summer. They are,
LBT - 300 LFN/GC
LBT - 350 LFN/GC
RCBS - 350 FNGC
MT - 410 LFN/GC
NEI - 400 RNDD/GC
The RCBS and NEI molds are for 416 cal and sized at .415" for the 405 Win worked very well indeed. As best as I can measure a slugg from my barrel I got .4128". My rifle is an older Browning B-78 rebarreled to 405 at close to the conture of the origonal round barrel and same length at 26". Wont bother listing all loads tried just the one I setteled on for moose hunting this year. I went with the RCBS 350 FNGC because it is an absolutely perfect fit in my rifles throat and the nose rides snuggly on the lands. It prooved to be extreamly accurate and has given several three shot groupes at 100 yards that resemble perfect little clovers. The load,
case - Hornady 405 Win
bullet - RCBS 350 FNGC 6/1 alloy air cooled @.415" speed green lube
primer - cci #200 LR
powder - 49.5 gn H - 4895
av. velocity at 10 ft - 1959 FPS @ 70 F
Got my chance at a nice smaller meat bull this week. At about 50 yards broad side a center sholder hit. Not exactly what I wanted but the excuse I will go with is the still leafy foliage between us and a poor guess as to where just behind the sholder was. Anyway he did not run but turned as if to try staggered sideways a couple steps and was down for the count. I figgured his blood pressure dropped pretty fast cause he never got it together enough for even a couple aimed steps. The boolit sailed on through both sholders(drats) and caused ALOT A damage between. Not that much meat loss thank God but inside the chest cavity looked like a blind roto ruter man was trying hard to find his way out. Went just over the heart but missed it but both lungs could pretty much be poured out. Exit hole in the hide was not big but like two to three callibers. Inside the cavity on the on side through the ribbs the hole was about 1" and on the off side after passing through the lungs and back into the ribbs it was 2.5 to 3". No lead fragments were found during butchering. I shure woulda liked to have found that boolit. Thought some of you heading into the woods soon with your home brew's might gain some confidence from this. Hope the detailes arent too grusome or offencive to some but this is how we learn and develope loads that work as desired.
BIC/BS

[C1PNR]

Good job on the bull, and good report.

I see your .405 in on a B-78 Browning. Have you had any trouble with the trigger? Especially remaining stable in the pull weight and feel?

My Brother has a B-78 and can not keep the trigger to his liking. Every few shots it seems to "roam" as to weight of pull, and sometimes seems to creep.

One of these days I'm going to find the "right" .405 in a '95 Winchester. Passed one up back in the late 80's in upstate New York and been kicking myself ever since!

[Bullshop]

Good job on the bull, and good report.

I see your .405 in on a B-78 Browning. Have you had any trouble with the trigger? Especially remaining stable in the pull weight and feel?

My Brother has a B-78 and can not keep the trigger to his liking. Every few shots it seems to "roam" as to weight of pull, and sometimes seems to creep.

One of these days I'm going to find the "right" .405 in a '95 Winchester. Passed one up back in the late 80's in upstate New York and been kicking myself ever since!
C1PNR
No problem with the trigger being unstable. It has a wee little bit of creep but its light and managable. Way back when fir prices were worth the effort I hunted fur for my income for a couple winters. I used a pair of B-78's in 22/250 and 6mm Rem. These guns became a part of me as I carried one for 10 to 20 miles a day on foot most every day from late Oct. to late Feb. Think thats why this 405 feels so good and natural to me. I think this one has enough years on it to smooth up some but those other two were rough and creepy. I decided to try a trigger job on the 6mm and did make a big improvment but swore( I did sware at that time) I would never take another one apart. I was alown at the time, befor I got married I mostly lived in the woods in a small camper. When it was time to put it all together I found it required about 11 fingers to hold all the springs and tiny ball bearings in place so it was a bit of a problem. I later found that Timany made a replacment for the Browning trigger. The 6mm became my first choice not because of the better trigger but because it was a far more deceisive killer for shots at the rear end of game running straight away. The 22/250 was good for frontal and side shots but was lacking in the rear end shots due to insufficiant penitration. It would break a hip and stop there and end up in an all day chase for one animal. In the 6mm I shot only Hornady 100gn BT and the same shot would reach the chest cavity and vitals and produce a quick kill. For this kind of hunting where there is not much time to get the shot off and many shots are without rest I prefer a single shot. The single shot being shorter in the receiver puts the ballance point closer to your body even with a rather long barrel and I can do better off hand shooting with it.
BIC/BS

[JDL]

Bullshop,
Congrats on the bull (moose?) thanks for sharing.
I have made more meat with my B-78 in .45-70 than with any other, so I do share the affection for them. Probably will lug it to Colorado next month for a chance at elk, if I can afford the gas.
Did you encounter any problems with the rebarreling process? That .405 sounds really nifty! -JDL

[Abert Rim]

Bullshop: Inspiring post, and thanks. I have a Ruger No. 1 in .405, and have been shooting jacketed so far, but was looking at the NEI 225A mold. Never occurred to me to consider that fine RCBS 350 GC. BruceB gave me some of those when I had a No. 1 in .416 Rigby, and dang they were accurate over 52 grains of XMP5744.

[Bullshop]

Bullshop,
Congrats on the bull (moose?) thanks for sharing.
I have made more meat with my B-78 in .45-70 than with any other, so I do share the affection for them. Probably will lug it to Colorado next month for a chance at elk, if I can afford the gas.
Did you encounter any problems with the rebarreling process? That .405 sounds really nifty! -JDL
JDL
Yes a small moose, spike on one side and fork on the other. Small as moose go prolly like 500 to 600 lbs. The area I live in 130 miles south of Fair Banks was cleared by the state in the 80's for agriculture. They put together a large scale project to ship barley to Asia. The moose, bison, and bears love it and tend to run a bit heavier body weight feeding on grain and are MMMM good eating. We are in an antler restriction area that allows eather spike or fork horn or must have 4 brow tines or be 50" or larger spread and nothing in between. The reasoning is to allow meat bulls for the locals in the spike/fork and trophy bulls for horn hunters. I got this 405 in trade already rebarreled. No name on the barrel but it looked good, and they had matched the blueing quite closely. The B78's were nicely polished and blued from factory. There was a problem with it though and I think is why he traded.You know the forend on the B-78 is not hung on the barrel but on a stud extending from the receiver so the barrel can be floated. Well the stud was loose so the forend had quite a bit of wobble to it. It had some material wedged between forarm and barrel which must have put some weard stress on both parts as that set up didnt shoot well. When propperly corrected shoots as good as anyone could ask for as has been my experiance with the several B-78's and 1885 Browning's I have had. I had $400. in my trade stock so am quite happy with the deal. The rifle has retired at least for a bit my old Marlin 45/70 as I think I get a bit better range with about the same horse power. Dont think for a minute that a single shot is slow on repeat shots. I once called in a group of coyotes and when the dust had settled found I had killed 5 befor the rest headed for safer parts. That was with the 6mm and when coyotes were $100. a pop, I loved that rifle. Good luck on your elk hunt. Does your 45/70 have the steel cresent but. That was the only cal b-78 that had it and it can be brutal with heavy loads. I once had one that had been rechambered to 45/120 OOWWOOCH it was a bruser, didnt have it long.
BIC/BS

[Nrut]

Bullshop....do you know the twist rate on your .405?.....I have a B-78 in 22-250 (varmit contour) that I was thinking of having re-bored or rebarreled to a rimmed .375 of some sort or a .405....I'm only interested in shooting cast bullets and from the sound of it you have the proper twist to be getting the accuracy that you are getting....
I hear you about taking the B-78 apart for trigger work....I installed a Canjar double set on mine and it took me over 10hrs. as I had to file some parts to make the trigger fit...cheers mic

[BruceB]

Bullshop;

Very interesting indeed!

I'm using the very same RCBS .416 bullet in my #1 .416 Rigby for Alberta elk and/or white-tail next month, except that my loads will use the two-alloy softpoint version that I've come up with (about 365 grains). The load is 55.0 grains of XMP5744 and a dacron tuft, and runs at 2088fps with only five fps extreme spread.

In my shooting practice, with a zero two inches high at 100 yards, I'm getting center hits on a 6"w x 8"h steel gong from 160 yards, so this looks like a capable 200-yard combination. It also bashes BIG craters in the 3/4"-thick AR plate gong at that range.

Your testimony indicates that it will work, and work well....not that I had any doubts about it. I hope to have a success story to relate when I get back home in early November.

[Bullshop]

Nrut
i have not measured the twist just went ahead and tried some heavy bullets up to 410gn and they work well. I read in Ken Waters pet loads where he also tried some heavy cast with good performance in an origonal 95 Win. From what I have found groove diameters ran as high as .415" in the early guns so no reason why boolits for the 416 cals wont work. I dont know what the newer Ruger and Brownings will slugg at but mine at .4128" seems to prefer sized to .415" If I can remember and find the time I will try to measure my twist and post it. The remember part will be the biggest obstacle.
Bruce B
I posted my results especialy with you in mind. I know you have been hard at it to get it right with your 416, and ready for the hunt you have often mentioned. It sounds like you are ready and any returning excuses will be flimsy at best. So the best to you and enjoy it all the sights, sounds, smells,and folks you meet along the way.
BIC/BS

[JDL]

JDL
Dont think for a minute that a single shot is slow on repeat shots.
__________________________________________________ _________

Does your 45/70 have the steel cresent but. That was the only cal b-78 that had it and it can be brutal with heavy loads. I once had one that had been rechambered to 45/120 OOWWOOCH it was a bruser, didnt have it long.
BIC/BS
I know what you mean about fast repeat shots with a single shot. In 1976, when my B-78 was new, a friend was hunting with me and, close to dark, I got a shot at a small buck. I would shoot, he'd get back up, I'd shoot again. This went on for 3 shots before he stayed down. Cliff came down the hill to see who had come on the property using a repeater, said he'd never thought I could shoot a single shot so fast :-).

Yes, it still has the cresent butt plate and, yes, with strong loads it will bite if not held correctly.-JDL

[Bullshop Junior]

Today I got a fork horn bull moose using the 405 win B-78 and the 405 custom mt bullet. He was laying down with a cow moose on each side of him watching for danger so he could sleep. he slept for about an hour while I was behind the gun on my prone position at about 250 yards. He got up, dad got a look at that fork and yelled SHOOT! oops, I forgot to cock it and it did not go off. By the time I got it re cocked and back to the scope he was going into the brush. I got it up to the chest and BOOM, OH MY EYE!!!! I now have scope eye. when it hapened I got up and said I WILL NOT SHOOT THIS GUN AGAIN! We got on the other side of the wind row and walked over to about were I thought he has when I shot, and I went though the wind row again and he was on he feet again. Dad he is on his feet again! Dad shot and missed high so he shot agin and it hit in the heart. we later discovered that my shot hit him in the neck went through but missed the bone. When it came out it turned down and hit him in the hind foot. On dads shot it hit dead center in the chest and came out the side behind the ribs. just another report on the 405 and cast.
Daniel/ Bs Jr.

[JDL]

I got it up to the chest and BOOM, OH MY EYE!!!! I now have scope eye.
Daniel/ Bs Jr.
Reminds me of the time I let a friend shoot my B-78 .45-70 with a 510 grain paper patched boolet and a case full of IMR 3031, which produced around 1650 fps. I told him to hold it tight, as it wanted to come back rather forcefully, so he fired and said, "What a sweet shooting rifle." When he turned around I saw blood coming from just above his right eye and replied, "I told you to hold it tight!"
Congratulations on the bull. I hear it makes some fine table fare.-JDL

[Bass Ackward]

I got it up to the chest and BOOM, OH MY EYE!!!! I now have scope eye. when it hapened I got up and said I WILL NOT SHOOT THIS GUN AGAIN!

Oh Danny Boy,

Not quite like the 223 Huh? Well, you DO have to hold them. But that's OK. I hated recoil myself when I was young. I was a skinny kid that broke both collar bones and they didn't heal smooth. So it wasn't until I got .... FATTER that I started to enjoy shooting more. Relax. You'll grow into it.

I think moose is natures best red meat as long as he wasn't ruttin.

Enjoy the memory!

[carpetman]

Would this be a legal moose? BS had already filled his tag and was shooting a second one.

[Bullshop]

Would this be a legal moose? BS had already filled his tag and was shooting a second one.
Carpetman
In my understanding of Alaska game law it is legal for any licensed hunter to aid in finishing off wounded game. In this case Jr was unable to as he was dealing with a scope eye situation and had momentarily lost use of his eye. The game was clearly wounded as I was watching the shot through 10x Sworofski bino and clearly saw the hit and the animals reaction,there was no doubt about it. If you recall JR passed his hunter saftey course last year and so is entitled to his own tag. Please forgive me if I am wrong here but I cant help feeling that your real concern in bringing this up was to publicly point a finger at my possible wrong doing and so also point out that Christians do bad too. I think this because this is not the first time you have done this with me. Am I wrong? If I am I am so very sorry for this and you have my sincere apology! If I am not wrong keep watching and you will find I often do wrong things as I am only human and far from perfect. I almost daily have to pray for Gods strength in my weekness, and His forgivness in my wrong doing. We had a wonderfull church service this past Sunday there was not a dry eye in the house, lots of love and hugging going around. Such a wonderful feeling to feel the presence of God. If only you could know it too, I pray that someday before it is too late you will. God Bless You!
BIC/BS

[carpetman]

Bullshop---This is not a matter of publicly pointing out that you are not perfect--I never had thoughts you were. The story as told was that a quick shot was taken---possibly spray and pray--on a disappearing into brush moose at 250 yards. Seems odd to me that you had viewed this moose for an hour and did not know it's antler configuration until it stood up. Then your optics became good enough to ascertain the disappearing moose had been hit. There was no mention of it being hit and none that it had gone down. Then the moose was located again and it was determined the moose had gotten back up. When was it down? You then shot the standing moose,from what distance I don't know. I don't see how that comes under assisting with wounded game. I understand Jr can legally have a tag,but your filling it is not legal. You are getting two when the law allows one. My wife got a moose tag when we were in Alaska and she filled it. If she couldn't it would have gone unfilled and yes,the temptation for me to fill it would have been there.

[onceabull]

Carpetman, Maybeso you should turn Dan in for potential reward $, rather then carping on & on...! ! !........Onceabull

[Bullshop]

Carpetman
You are right it is hard to understand and Jr and I are certanly not good at verbaly describing in detail enough to make everything perfectly clear to everyone. I will try to add some detail. We were hunting a potato farm the fields we were in are not planted this year but in a rotation systam. These fields are a mile long and wide but are broken up with narrow wind rows of trees. These wind rows are 20 to 30 feet wide. We had stalked to the beded moose as close as we thought we could without alarming them. There were actualy 4 of them 3 cows and the bull. The bull was beded faceing away from us with his head down and being quite still. He would turn his head side to side a bit at times but I could not get a good look at the horn on the far side as the ears blocked my view.I could see the on side and it had a small third point that would make it not legal as it has to be spike or fork on at least one side. I could see they were not longer than his ears and could see a fork for shure but wanted to waight for him to turn arround so I could get a good look from the side the horn in question was on. We waighted for about an hour and had plenty of time to talk it over and make a plan. I told Jr I thought it to be about 250 yds and explained the sight picture he should use. I had Jr stay prone with a good rest on my vest and we waited. Finaly one of the cows stood and I told Jr to get ready. The bull stood and turned so I could get a good look and I saw only the fork I had been seeing and no extra point so decieded he was OK so told Jr to shoot. The bull was beded about 25 yards from the wind row and when he got up he slowly walked toward it. Jr had forgotten to cock the hammer on the B-78 so took up some of the time he would have had for the shot. I was thinking it was takeing a bit to long and just as the bull reached the wind row like as if his nose was touching the wall I heard the shot go and clearly saw the reaction to a hit. I thought I saw it hit too far back by the diaphram and also saw him shaking the foot that was hit and we both heard it hit. With that he was out of sight in the wind row. Jr yelled a big OUCH and was squinting and fighting back tears from a good bruis around his eye.He was not bleading so I thought he would be ok, and he said he would be but couldnt shoot again. We stepped through the wind row and saw the cows on the other side. They crossed the field to the next wind row and began feeding on willow brush. We did not see the bull on the other side so assumed he was down in the wind row. We walked a ways and still not seing him I thought if he gets up might go out the other side so told Jr to pop through the wind row and take a peak. Soon as he crossed over he says DAD HE'S UP!!! I crossed over and shure enough he was standing up faceing right at us and holding up a hind leg where JR's shot had shattered the ancle joint just above the hoove. I didnt wast any time and held just a bit high for the chest but missed entirely. He was actualy standing at a bit of an angle to us not perfectly straight on. Jr said he saw dust far beyond the moose so next shot I held center of the chest and that is right where it went. It went through the top of the heart and lungs at a slight angle and came out at the last couple ribbs on one side breaking a couple. We heard a sollid WHAP at that shot but he did not go down. I told JR I didnt think I would have to shoot again and thought he would fall over in a couple seconds but reloaded and was ready. Shure enough he seemed to streach out tight and put his hed straight up and fell rear end first then front. We then walked up to him from the rear and I told Jr to be carefull cause he could still be dangerous. When we were close he tried to raise his head and so seing there was still life in him I endid it for him with one more shot to the base of the skull. You are right about the temtation to just fill the tag myself but I am certain that is not legal. That is why JR was there and why he got the shot. He also would have finished it if he was able to. We had only the one rifle with us and just as anyone else he wanted to do it. So there you go, make of it what you want. To the best of my ability I have explained what happened and feel we have done nothing wrong leagly or otherwise. BTW you never answerd my question in my previous post, "am I wrong"
BIC/BS

[carpetman]

I guess your question was this the first time? I don't recall. If I did,it's not religion,it's ethics of fair hunting is why I did bring it up. But to be honest--last years moose got shot 5 times I think it was--3 with a 50 Alaskan and twice with 35Win---I think something is wrong someplace to require that much. Perhaps you should be using jacketed? I used jacketed from 30-06 as did my wife and one shot was it.

[Bass Ackward]

What I find interesting is how a bullet that is that heavy gets diverted without hitting bone so that it penetrates the neck and takes a 90 degree turn to hit the rear foot. It must have hit some bone somewhere unless it bounced off a tree or something.

Dan,

When you dress it out, pay attention to the path and report please.

[Bullshop]

What I find interesting is how a bullet that is that heavy gets diverted without hitting bone so that it penetrates the neck and takes a 90 degree turn to hit the rear foot. It must have hit some bone somewhere unless it bounced off a tree or something.

Dan,

When you dress it out, pay attention to the path and report please.
B. A.
We had to butcher yesterday, its been too warm to hang meet, and some blow flies were finding there way to it. It is indead puzzeling as to how that boolit got to the foot, and also why it was going sideways when it got there. Yes it made a perfect profile entry hole. Hear is what I found, first the coup de gras in the head. Second the front chest hit that went straight from center chest angling slightly through the cavity and exiting at rear of the rib cage even raiking the last few ribbs. Now the mistery shot low in the neck about midway between head and neck. It went through the wind pipe and did some tissue damage but missed the arteries. Looked like it would not be imeadiatly fatal but would most likely have caused death in time. Now I know that Jr's shot hit the rear foot, I clearly saw that, but am not exactly shure who put the bullet through the neck. Thinking over the events as I saw them happen this is what I think. I believe Jr's shot the first shot hit a limb or stick or something. Something he did not see in the scope as it was set on 9 power, and he was shooting almost parilel to the wind row while lying at its edg. That would have been enough to cause the boolit to tumble and make the profile wound at the foot. At first I wonderd if those long 410 gn boolits were not fully being stabalised but the straight path of penitration from the chest shot says otherwise. You know a margonaly stable boolit/bullet can do weard things on impact. Thats why Elmer Keith always bad mouthed the 30/06 with the 220gn load. Anyway thinking on it a bit I believe the neck hit was from my first shot, the one I thought I missed. It must have passed through the neck causing little damage and Jr saw dust kick up far beyond so I thought it went high. Thats about the best i can come up with. If that first shot from Jr hadn't hit the foot we would have let him go as Jr couldnt shoot again from the eye injury and I shurly wouldnt have seen a hit if one didnt occur. In the excitement I misjudged the range on my first shot and that is where the mystery began. BTW this load with the 410 gn MT mold was loaded to 1650 fps to be more suetable for Jr in recoil, but shooting prone and on 9X I think he climbed up on the scope some. Also it was of straight WW alloy air cooled and penitrated about three feet of moose befor it exited leaving about a 1.5" hole. Too bad I couldnt have lined him up a bit better and stopped that boolit. I realy didnt want to tell Jr I think he only hit the foot but you know its always better to face the trueth and learn from it. The end result is we have another years supply of meat and I thank God for that!
BIC/BS

[carpetman]

Bullshop--I would guess your last description of how things happened was correct. Jr hit foot only and your first shot the neck shot. I never thought a shot went through neck and hit foot as well. What range do you have the scope sighted in for and how much drop do you have at 250?

[StarMetal]

I remember reading a hunting story in a gun magazine where they were hunting elephant and using the 458 Win Mag. They had a shot at this elephant that really wasn't far and should have been a picture perfect shot. BOOM!....elephant runs off, bullet never touched him. Upon investigation they found that there was a two inch sapling in front of where the elephant was standing, which couldn't be seen from the shooting distance and the bullet hit that and turned, they supposed, 90 deg away. Amazing.

Joe