Hard to find people to work these days.

[winchester85]

I am a framing contractor in western colorado, been here since 1987. I have 2 houses to do this summer at the same time, both are about 3500 sqft, and side by side. I have two ads on craigslist looking for guys but the responses i get are disappointing. Framing is not an old guy sport, it is physically demanding and that most times means that guys in their 20' and 30's are what I look for. I have only had 3 younger guys respond to the ad in the last couple weeks, one had virtually no experience but wanted $20 an hour. The other two sound like they will work out, if they are still looking for a job when these houses start in mid June.
Most of the guys that are calling me are late 30's to 50's, all want $30 an hour or more, some have lots of experience, but have not framed in years. Some are not framers at all, but rather handymen or interior trim guys. While we all work with wood, most interior guys are NOT good framers. Some can do it, but I have never seen an interior guy hustle like a framer needs to. I have no problem with late 30's and even into mid 40's. Last year I hired a guy who was 58 and he swore up and down that he was a hard worker and really got stuff done. Early on the first day he actually asked me to go fetch him some nails because he did not want to climb out of the basement to get them himself, I was doing layout on a steel beam 12' off the basement floor, obviously busy. He just wanted to stand at a cut table and wait for stuff to cut. I paid him at the end of the day and said no thanks, he wanted $28 an hour.

The bids I have on these houses are the same numbers that i was getting back in 2000 and 2001. But the workers want the same money they were making in 2007 when things were going bananas!

I just talked to a friend who runs a home building business in Illinois and he said he has exactly the same problem, no younger people wanted to learn the trade, and anybody that does want a job wants top dollar.
Is this problem nationwide, or is it just in a few places?

Anyone got a nephew, son, grandson, or know any healthy person that WANTS to work hard and be proud of what they do everyday?

[C. Latch]

I tried to hire someone a few months ago for a 3-month gig.

First question from the first applicant: 'Does this job come with insurance?'.

Next applicant: 'I only need a job for a week'.

I consider myself very fortunate to have found the third applicant. 26 years old and works his tail off every day.

[Magana559]

What are you paying per day/hour?

[DHurtig]

Maybe you should put an ad in my local newspaper. Employers around here squeal like a pig if they have to pay $12 an hour. Most jobs here start at $8 or $9 an hour.

[9w1911]

I am having a very hard time finding work

[onceabull]

Almost all the framers working here during the boom went back to Mexico..Those that didn't were recent parolees... Onceabull

[plmitch]

There is a shortage of good framers around here( silicon valley) too mostly because there is so much new construction going on. I'm having to pay most of my framers and roofers top dollar to keep them from jumping ship.

[plmitch]

Maybe you should put an ad in my local newspaper. Employers around here squeal like a pig if they have to pay $12 an hour. Most jobs here start at $8 or $9 an hour.


I can't find unskilled laborers for those wages ......

[DrtRacr09]

I do dirt work and run into the same problem finding equipment operators. Hard to find anybody that will work five days a week anymore, just want there forty and done. Only problem with that is, it's never four consecutive days. It seems most want to work just long enough so they can get back on unemployment.
Once in awhile there is a few diamonds in the rough, young ambitious fellows willing to learn, good work ethics, and then comes hunting season, haha.

[dkf]

Younger people have been having the "must go to college" thing pounded into them throughout school. The people doing the pounding often look down on the trades and the people whom do them for a living. I have been through it myself. Graduating class in the college I went to for machining was 9 people. Computer related was over 30. All 9 of us left with jobs in the field, 2 of the computer guys had jobs in their field when they left.

[leeggen]

Try going to the high school/vocational schools and talk to the instructer that teached the construction classes. They may have some excellent students that would fit in.
CD

[bayjoe]

You tried putting an ad on the board down on the reservation? A lot of those young Indian men might want to work for a few months.

[chsparkman]

Younger people have been having the "must go to college" thing pounded into them throughout school. The people doing the pounding often look down on the trades and the people whom do them for a living. I have been through it myself. Graduating class in the college I went to for machining was 9 people. Computer related was over 30. All 9 of us left with jobs in the field, 2 of the computer guys had jobs in their field when they left.

This is exactly right. I teach math at a high school. Everyone thinks they're going to college and most have never done anything with their hands and they don't want to.

[00buck]

I'm 56 and I'll frame circles around you and those younger guys

yeah.. I know how to frame a curved wall

ok.. I feel better now :)

[clownbear69]

OP if I was closer to CO (and not have to be a stay at home dad) I'd work for ya. Cheap enough to because I don't know how to frame.

ETA: I'm 25

[freebullet]

Same story here. The only people willing to work hard physically are illegals or so slow they aren't worth what they want. The unskilled laborers want technician pay and want you to listen to them cry about their problems and how hard the job is while they work at a snails pace.

When we do water damage restoration projects its usually an emergency. I struggle to find decent labor at 20+$ per hr in cash. I've seen elderly women work harder then most young guys will today. I reward the good ones well when I find one. Lazy cry babies is the new normal, sad but true.

[labradigger1]

I disagree that trim carpenters are NOT good framers, i am 41, have been a carpenter for 24 years. I prefer trim because i excell at it but i am a darn good framer as well. As far as hustle i have a pace that is faster than most peoples. I am not looking for work as i have a full time job and a home i am working on to flip on the weekends. You are correct that most younger people are lazy. Imho most are lazy, stupid and want it handed to them. Sad to say but these are the same people thatthat will be running this country one day. Lord help us all.
Lab

[winchester85]

i offer a guy with minimal experience a starting wage of $15 an hour. if they work hard, don't argue with me about how i want it done, show up everyday and dont try to rip me off i give them more. then at the end of the job i give a bonus to those that actually worked hard and had a good attitude.
my ad says that i need a couple of guys to assemble walls, floors, roof, etc... i just got a message from a guy that has 30 years experience, in his message he says that he can run my job from the ground up. if i dont need that, that he can read drawings and order material. except the ad specifically says that i do NOT need someone to run my job, and i am not interested in piecing it out. so apparently he did not bother to read the ad. oh, and he said he would need AT LEAST $35 to $37 and hour. i guess he will have to go on unemployment when his current job ends.

i am sure there are exceptions to the rule, but every time i give one of these guys a shot, they prove what i believe. they dont have the hustle, they don't know as much as they think. i tell them that i am not looking for someone to run the job, that i do that. that i only need guys to actually put stuff together. they tell me how fast they are, how hard they work, and how they have every tool needed. i explain that the job pays $18 to $20 an hour for good hard workers that know what they are doing, they say they understand and just want to work. but then after a one day of banging nails or running ply, they try to stand around or "run" the job.

i already tried the local high school's class where they teach kids trades. the teacher himself said he was looking for something this summer, but when i offered for him to come work for me, he told me he was out of town all summer. and that anyone in his class that was any good had already got something set up.



part of the problem is that some of these people work for friends or family and get paid way more than they are worth, then when they go out to look for a job they expect the same high wage and no accountability.

[plmitch]

Hammer slingers are a dying breed ...........

[Love Life]

Sheeoot. I've shoveled horse dookie all day for less pay than that.

[MaryB]

Blue collar trades in general are hard up for skilled workers. As mentioned kids get it beat into them that desk jobs are the only real form of work. Working with your hands and getting dirty is for uneducated poor people who don't know any better. This country needs a major turn around or we are lost. Desk jobs shuffling paper are not what made this country great. Hard sweaty work using your hands to create something, build, or fix things is how this country was built.

All Wall Street and bankers create is debt and unsustainable bubble markets. Further we get from our roots the worse the bubbles have become. Good paying factory jobs(not always union), construction, oil and gas, coal and other mining, farming and ranching created physical wealth in the form of goods.

[clownbear69]

$15/hr? jeez id be tickled pink

[bob208]

around here they want welders. are offering $10-13 an hour.

[osteodoc08]

I dont think that every one need to/want to/should go to college. By the end of high school you should know what youre cut out for and what your not. There is nothing wrong with a skilled tradesman and he/she should be proud of what they do. I've been trying to talk to my brother to get involved in a trade school to learn a trade. He's just lazy, 27, and living off mom. Never left home except for a brief stint at college where he partied too hard and failed out. School doesnt care. They got their money. There will always be another class next year. He's got it made. Room, board, newer vehicle he didnt have to pay for, gas money, etc. He's had a few jobs but gets fired.

It really is a shame that these slackers and mindsets will be ruining our country...they sure as hell wont be running it, rather ruining it. No typo.

[snowwolfe]

I can see both sides here. $15 an hour? If you are married it is almost impossible to live on that in Colorado, especially if you are not offering health insurance as well. Then add in the fact the job is only temporary at best.

Young men are looking to secure a future, not just a quick 3-4 month job. I bet if you could offer year around employement with insurance people would jump at $15 an hour.

[MtGun44]

A big piece of the problem is that in the last 20-30 yrs, well over 40 million Americans were never born (aborted). This
has massively damaged the country and is NEVER talked about. This is the reason that there is so much interest in
letting in more and more foreign workers - we have committed suicide as a country, frankly. This is not the whole
problem, of course, but missing 40+ million workers has a gigantic impact on the availability of workers in that critical
age bracket. You can have all sorts of discussions about the morality, and that is completely independent of the issue
of missing a big chunk of the next generation of workers who are necessary for a stable economy. We are screwed.

Bill

[osteodoc08]

A big piece of the problem is that in the last 20-30 yrs, well over 40 million Americans were never born (aborted). This
has massively damaged the country and is NEVER talked about. This is the reason that there is so much interest in
letting in more and more foreign workers - we have committed suicide as a country, frankly. This is not the whole
problem, of course, but missing 40+ million workers has a gigantic impact on the availability of workers in that critical
age bracket. You can have all sorts of discussions about the morality, and that is completely independent of the issue
of missing a big chunk of the next generation of workers who are necessary for a stable economy. We are screwed.

Bill

Not to play devils advocate, but what percentage of these would be in jail, living off the government or otherwise a drain to society.

Not to get this moved to off topic section, but it has more to do with entitlement ideology than anything else, IMHO.

[dragon813gt]

Abortion brought into a discussion about finding skilled workers? Talk about an epic thread drift :laugh:

[montana_charlie]

I can see both sides here. $15 an hour? If you are married it is almost impossible to live on that in Colorado, especially if you are not offering health insurance as well. Then add in the fact the job is only temporary at best.

Young men are looking to secure a future, not just a quick 3-4 month job. I bet if you could offer year around employement with insurance people would jump at $15 an hour.
Youn men have their entire lives to work at securing their future, and they can't expect a 'package' when they are just starting out.

A new hire in a job that so many fail at doesn't deserve that kind of consideration.
If he works well enough to prove his value, the pay increases can be expected. If he is a real jewel, he might be one of the few who stay on year-around, and get 'bennies'.

Offering any of that to an unknown is foolish ...

[detox]

It is very hard for convicted felons to find jobs. Maybe you could check with the local parole office. Sometimes parolees make the best workers.

[country gent]

This trend started long before now, it was back around 1980 or so. My friend and I had gotten "real" jobs at a factory. Before that from about age 12 to then we had bailed for a local farmer and also other farm labor. When we started the new jobs no time was left for the others. All of the farmers we had worked for told the same story. The one we bailed for all summer told us he hired several from the local high school football team, and they left a noon to rest up for football practice and never came back. These farmers never really found any reliable help for the work needed to be done. My friend and I would run up to 3000 bales a day at a penny a bale. Even back then kids were to good to actually work. I can remember breaking up a concrete silo ring and offering the sledge hammer to brothers step son and sister in law telling me he didnt need to do manual labor like that. My son was 7 or 8 at the time and was taking his turns with the hammers. I worked in the auto industry ( one of the big 3) and untill youve seen the attitude of a 3rd generation worker you dont fully understand, LOL. They have heard Grandpa and Dads stories and figure they are entitled to the same with only a years senority. Never mind they havent "earned" the easy jobs yet

[detox]

My work place did away with lazy seniority few years ago. Only your job skills, good attendance and good work ethic keep you from being laid off. Oh yea...and who you know.

Yes I am worried

[rondog]

On the flip side, it's hard to find JOBS these days! I've been unemployed since Nov 2012. At my age and with my physical problems, there's no way I could do manual labor anymore. I worked in Telecommunications for the last 26 years, and have vast experience in that field. So that's where I need to concentrate.

But I'm treated like I'm poisonous, like they'd rather hire 2-3 green people, pay them min. wage, and train them, rather than hire someone experienced. I'm not asking for high wages, pay has never even been discussed at any interview. I just want a chance. Sorry, we don't hire old people.

I couldn't even get a part-time job as a "lot attendant" at Home Depot for crying out loud. I'm 58, but I don't plan to retire anytime soon. I'd rather work until I just can't anymore.

[detox]

I seen on the news the other day that more companies are hiring older workers because they are more dependable.

I have seen guys in their 50's that worked harder and were more productive than most of the new younger generation. Seems the older generation has more to prove.

[rondog]

I seen on the news the other day that more companies are hiring older workers because they are more dependable.

I have seen guys in their 50's that worked harder and were more productive than most of the new younger generation. Seems the older generation has more to prove.

Still unreasonably tough. It's crazy. I go to Lowes and Home Depot, and half their workers are older than me, some dragging oxygen tanks around! And a lot of the others are covered with tattoos and piercings. But I can't even get an interview.

Another thing, you can't just go someplace and apply for a job anymore, EVERYPLACE requires you to apply online!

[Love Life]

Youn men have their entire lives to work at securing their future, and they can't expect a 'package' when they are just starting out.

A new hire in a job that so many fail at doesn't deserve that kind of consideration.
If he works well enough to prove his value, the pay increases can be expected. If he is a real jewel, he might be one of the few who stay on year-around, and get 'bennies'.

Offering any of that to an unknown is foolish ...

The gospel.

I watched it with my generation graduating high school. They expected to just walk into a $50,000 a year job with bennies 'just cuz'. Either that or they went to college, got in debt, just to get a $30,000 a year job. Of course you CAN live on $30,000 a year, but that is a whole other topic. You are dealing with different generations. What I would try, is to tell potential employees what the whole job is worth to them from start to finish.

You can say "I'll give you $18.00" (I'd already be busting my hump for you for that much money), or you can say "This job will net you $7,000 over the next 3 months."

That larger figure may entice more people (younger) to say.

[jsizemore]

www.hireacoloradovet.gov

[winchester85]

a couple people have referenced that i am only offering a short term job. i dont believe i ever mentioned that. the fact is, i can find work without much difficulty. i have a good reputation for speed and quality. if i could find 2 or maybe 3 guys that were worth keeping i would try much harder to have consistent continuous work for them. right now i have 2 houses to frame, that should take 6 weeks or less, then i have the exterior finish on both. after that the general contractor i am working for has 11 more houses to do, several of those permits should be in place about the time these houses are wrapping up for me.

whether someone can live on $15 and hour is not the point, the point is they get paid what they are worth. if they want to learn, work hard, and plan for the future, i will go out of my way to help them. but most do not think 3 days past the next pay day. they do not buy tools, they make no attempt to learn, they will quit working for me to go work some job that pays the same where the boss isnt around and they can be lazy.
the guys that start out at $15 an hour are guys that don't have much experience or knowledge, they have to start somewhere. seems these days that everyone wants to start out at the top.
i have hired guys in their 50's, none have worked out more than a week. the one i had that actually worked hard, dropped a nail gun on my head from 8 feet above while i was standing on an extension ladder. cut my cheek open, bruised my jaw and gave me one nasty headache. he worked hard enough but was just a boob, and would never stop talking. the longer he talked, the less he got done. so many of the guys that are in their 50's and older just want to stand at a cut table and cut for people. my jobs are fast paced, i do not ever set up a cut table. i run a bunk of material on the forks of my forklift out on to the floor, i cut right off the stack.
the floors on these two houses that i have to do are about 2200 sqft, with 2 guys on each floor and me helping with both, the floors both should be done in 5 days or less.

[winchester85]

just posted an ad on hire a colorado vet.

i have had felons work for me in the past, while on work release. one guy worked for me for over year, i even lent him the money to keep his house from being foreclosed on. then one day he just never showed up again, a few months later i saw him, he said he just couldn't frame anymore. never talked to me, just left.

[archmaker]

Guys the problem is not just with 'skilled' labor (I framed while in College . . . In SW Colorado, none the less :)), but also College grads.

I work in a very technically demanding field, I am a computer hacker/security specialist, and have to know to think outside the box. We hire the top rank students from college and all they can do . . . is fill out a scantron, give them a problem that isn't multiple choice and they can't do it, ask them to step outside the box, nope can't do that, come up with a creative solution . . nope can't do that either. College has taught them to stay within the lines when completing an answer, and the client is going to give you a possible list of answers all you have to do is pick the best one.

And they expect to be called an expert or someone the client's can trust to give them good advice after their first year. Pleeeaaaassseeee!!!

I was worried about losing my job as I got older (technology moving faster than I can keep up), but with the batch that is coming up my worry disappears with each day.

[David2011]

This reminds me of a guy I saw on a home buying show recently. Guy was a stockbroker and buying a $600K+ house. He said he guessed he would have to get his hands dirty. He was talking about buying a lawn mower!

David

[jsizemore]

just posted an ad on hire a colorado vet.

THANK YOU!!! That's the best thing I heard all day.

[Springfield]

Maybe it is just me, but I would like to think my son can do better than being a framer. I never got to go to college, my dad was a machinist and it was all he could do to raise 6 kids in California. I have worked as an HVAC tech and sweated my butt off on the roofs of many businesses. Worked as a motorcycle mechanic and just about starved the death in the winter when nobody was riding and didn't need any work done on their bikes. Drove an Armored truck for over 10 years but got tired of being paid less than a UPS driver while 2 of my coworkers were killed. Did 5 years as a Deputy Sheriff putting up with the bad hours and crappy people you have to deal with. Worked part-time for the USPS walking my butt off delivering and then drove most weekends as I had a class B license. Worked as a Facilities Maintenance Tech for a few years, but everybody wanted me to be a combination Carpenter/Plumber/Electrician but wouldn't pay me what any of them made, nor send me to any kind of classes to improve my skills. I worked 70 hour plus weeks for so long it started to seem like I was goofing off if I only did 55 hours. I learned a lot, but I wouldn't wish that life on my son, or daughter for that matter. Hate to sound like some sort of Army commercial, but I want my kids to have a CAREER, not a JOB. I wouldn't mind if my kids did some REAL work part-time in the summer, but not full time. And when you really get down to it, if you aren't getting good workers, you WILL have to pay more, because there are many jobs out there for beginning workers that aren't nearly so difficult, nor seasonal. And yes, our kids have been taught to work smart, not hard, and are taking it to heart.

[dbosman]

Unless you specified the time period, why would you expect replies from experienced framers? If they are really good, they are already employed somewhere cheaper to live.
I've framed in my youth, but I wouldn't take a framing job, today, for what's been mentioned - without being on someones health insurance. Unless you have an experienced team -which you won't have for a month- the odds are in favor of someone getting hurt on the job.

There are a lot of people looking for work but not hanging out on Craig's list.
I'd expect any lumber supplier to know of someone who knows people looking for work.

[snowwolfe]

Some valid points here but I'll play devils advocate for this. When you state "whether someone can live on $15 and hour is not the point",
Well, it is the point. If they can't live on the money they most likely will not take the job.
And then you mentioned "they do not buy tools". Why should they buy tools? Should the employer furnish them?

I can see your side but I also see why you can't find decent help. Your offer of $15 an hour would be great for someone looking for just a part time job but in this day and age people need medical insurance and steady employment. If they got hurt on the job would you cover their medical bills and pay them a salary while they were recuperating? If you will, make this known to them during the interview.
It's a shame someone who is looking for a good job will not even consider your offer until they find something better but its a tough world anymore.

Good luck finding help. Sounds like you are trying to do well and wish you luck.

[gew98]

I feel your pain. Seems more and more companies are using temps more and more... and it's more bad than good. Just yesterday we had five guys show up from Road dog industrial to do electrical work. The GC ( Gray ) had a problem right off the bat..... their english was about zero. My boss had a major problem... they had no tools , hardhats or hi vis.... and their english was so bad enough that when he told them to Get the F*&$ out of 'here' and go home he had to pretty much act it out to get them to understand what he meant. And yet one asked in broken english at the end of the act if he had 'screwdriver' could he come back tommorrow. I've seen almost a dozen guys before this come and go on this one job - they were "tooled up" but they did not know the first thing about electrical work on the comm/industrial side. watched one guy burn up two bundles of 3/4 emt to do a simple saddle bend before the boss ran his **** off !. Got alot of older guys that say they are electricians but can't read a tape or torpedo level to save their lives !.

[10x]

Well first, I will take the job for $30.00 an hour.
I need an advance on 2 weeks wages,
and I need at least a week off to begin with...

[Love Life]

I don't get it. I come from a world where any money you earn in the pocket is better than no money in the pocket while looking...

[.45Cole]

Winchester85,
Are you in GJ? Assuming you are in GJ, you have one thing working against you, oil. The boom is waning, but with what they were making you are on the bottom. I'm from GJ, and perhaps I would know a couple people who could benefit from what you are offering. They would be the "inexperienced" type, but can learn. I'm 30 and they are my age.

[.45Cole]

Oh, and for the think out of the box comment, I have a very technical degree and am digging deep to find employment. Fire your HR people and actually look at the candidates. If you try out of the box methods, they will lead to out of the box results. Everyone does the same thing as the next guy, yet expects a different result/outcome. Only 1/2 of my STEM class is employed, one year later.
Rant over, sorry had to vent as I am actually right now filling out a beggin form.

[dragon813gt]

I guess I don't get some things in life. I took a $6 an hour pay cut, which dropped me below $30 an hour, just to get out of a horrible place to work. There is no way possible way I could get by at $15 an hour. But I also built up this lifestyle based on my wages. I would have to sell everything to maybe get by at $15 an hour. Even making $15 an hour while living at home, I had student loans to pay off, was barely cutting it. I have no clue how any adult can get by on such a low wage.

There is no shortage of work in some fields. But business owners sure like to lowball you. One guy offered me $18 to start when he knew what I currently made. And I was going to be brought on to replace his father, who started the business, so he didn't have to work in the field anymore. I'm not saying all workers are great because most of them are garbage. But after a lot of interviews I've realized that the business owners are some pretty shady characters. At least in my position where I have leverage based on my certifications and experience. You couldn't pay me enough to frame these days. Which is why I invested in myself years ago through education and tooling. I was taught to work smarter, not harder which is why I'm a technician and not a laborer/mechanic.

And for the record, this is an age old problem. I remember my grand father and great grandfather complaining they can't find good help. They were general contractors. Pick an age, and there are workers and the worthless. The percentage of each has been pretty steady over the years.

[fatelk]

I've found that all it really takes to do well in most any job is to show up reliably with a good attitude, do whatever work you're asked to do without complaining, and focus on your work. That and at least a bare minimum of competence will get you noticed.

Now if I can just teach my kids that. So many people in this world don't realize the value of hard work. Sure, I want my kids to go to college and excel at what ever they do, but there is tremendous value in starting out with menial labor and getting at least a taste of long days and tough physical work at some point.

I also suspect that the reason we often think that everyone is lazy nowadays and doesn't want to work hard for what they're really worth, is that those are the ones that we notice. The hard working ones all have jobs and are busy working hard. Not that there aren't some great folks out of work through no fault of their own (been there), but on the other hand how do you prove it when you can't get a foot in the door?

[Love Life]

I really just don't get it. I remember being a 19 year old kid and liberating cities for about $2500 a month and that was only because it was tax free and we got seps, hazardous duty, etc pay.

Somebody with the opportunity to work, and who chooses not to(for whatever lame excuse they have), just boggles my mind.

[str8shot426]

I run a carpenter crew for a large scale commercial contractor. My youngest guy is 28. The clowns get weeded out quickly and are sent packing.
Most of the younger college educated kids work in the office as project managers or project engineers. They are real good at telling us how to do our job. LOL!
Back when I went through the apprenticeship program I was trained as a "Carpenter". This is everything from concrete to crown mold.
Being well versed has kept me steadily employed for 20 years.

[montana_charlie]

Maybe it is just me, but I would like to think my son can do better than being a framer. I never got to go to college, my dad was a machinist and it was all he could do to raise 6 kids in California. I have worked as an HVAC tech and sweated my butt off on the roofs of many businesses. Worked as a motorcycle mechanic and just about starved the death in the winter when nobody was riding and didn't need any work done on their bikes. Drove an Armored truck for over 10 years but got tired of being paid less than a UPS driver while 2 of my coworkers were killed. Did 5 years as a Deputy Sheriff putting up with the bad hours and crappy people you have to deal with. Worked part-time for the USPS walking my butt off delivering and then drove most weekends as I had a class B license. Worked as a Facilities Maintenance Tech for a few years, but everybody wanted me to be a combination Carpenter/Plumber/Electrician but wouldn't pay me what any of them made, nor send me to any kind of classes to improve my skills. I worked 70 hour plus weeks for so long it started to seem like I was goofing off if I only did 55 hours. I learned a lot, but I wouldn't wish that life on my son, or daughter for that matter. Hate to sound like some sort of Army commercial, but I want my kids to have a CAREER, not a JOB. I wouldn't mind if my kids did some REAL work part-time in the summer, but not full time. And when you really get down to it, if you aren't getting good workers, you WILL have to pay more, because there are many jobs out there for beginning workers that aren't nearly so difficult, nor seasonal. And yes, our kids have been taught to work smart, not hard, and are taking it to heart.
I would say that you can't call it a career unless you retire from it with some kind of pension.
And, you can't retire from something unless you are there long enough to make a career of it.

It sounds like ten years was your longest job, and that only makes half of a career in most places.

I won't presume to tell you what you should teach your son, but you should make sure that he knows he'll need 'staying power'.

CM

[bayjoe]

My oldest son is a carpenter. The talent he has is unbelievable, and he makes 6 figures a year.

[winchester85]

i have done very well as a framer. people i know have put me down for being a "construction worker", fact is i have a better quality of life than many. i have worked very hard, and used my money wisely. ANYONE who has a brain, and works like i did can do well too. sure $15 an hour is not a great wage to live on, it is NOT intended to be. it is a STARTING point. i starting working as a hoddy in aspen in 1987. by 1993 i was an independent framing contractor. people who come to work for me usually have more experience and get paid more than that, but they do not get there right off the bat. if someone has little experience and works hard, shows up everyday and cares about what they do, they will be making far more than $15 an hour in a few weeks. if not, well then they are destined to a life of poverty.

buy tools? YES, buy tools. how is a person supposed to go through life without tools? when i was 19 i was put in charge of jobs my first day on the job, the boss saw how i worked and wanted me to get others to do the same. i never liked the idea of using someone else's tools, so if i needed something i bought it. the sawzall i bought when i was 20 is still in my job box, still works great, that was 24 years ago. many of my tools are older than the guys that work for me. when someone comes to me looking for work and says, "yeah, i know what i am doing, but i have no tools" it says to me that they do not care about what they are doing. it also says that they will probably trash my tools because there is no downside for them. i do not require a $15 an hour new guy to have much, but he must have his own bags with a good tape, hammer, speed square, cats paw, knife, and a pencil. a guy making $30 an hour as a sub must have his own saw, gun, hose, cord, bags, laser, sawzall, drill and a way to get the stuff to the job. it is customary in the carpentry trades for people to have their own tools. a nailgun, in the hands of a guy that doesn't own it, lasts about 6 months.

i own, everything i need to build a house. 3 compressors, 5 nail guns, 4 skilsaws, 2 drills, 2 transits, router, sawzall, 2 job boxes, 800 feet of cord, 800 feet of hose, hose splitters, coil gun, teco gun, roto hammer, ramset, and small tools to repair all those tools. oh, and a 42 foot reach forklift.
framing can be a career just like any other trade, but like any job, if you look down your nose at it, you will never have a career!

i am proud of what i do, i am good at it, and will never let anyone tell me that there is something better i should have done with my life. i enjoy what i do, if i did not, i would do something else.

i am so tired of people saying that they can't live on what their pay rate is. the job pays what it is worth, not what you need or want. if i paid starting guys $20 an hour, i would not make any money. if i did not make any money i would not be in business to hire them. so many also do not understand that if i pay them $20, it costs me another $9 for taxes and insurance.

[MaryB]

Only reason I could see having to sell everything to get by on $15hr is if you are deep in debt/lots of credit cards loaded up. Sure the house payment could be rough to make on $15 but that might be a signal it is time to downsize into affordable.


I guess I don't get some things in life. I took a $6 an hour pay cut, which dropped me below $30 an hour, just to get out of a horrible place to work. There is no way possible way I could get by at $15 an hour. But I also built up this lifestyle based on my wages. I would have to sell everything to maybe get by at $15 an hour. Even making $15 an hour while living at home, I had student loans to pay off, was barely cutting it. I have no clue how any adult can get by on such a low wage.

There is no shortage of work in some fields. But business owners sure like to lowball you. One guy offered me $18 to start when he knew what I currently made. And I was going to be brought on to replace his father, who started the business, so he didn't have to work in the field anymore. I'm not saying all workers are great because most of them are garbage. But after a lot of interviews I've realized that the business owners are some pretty shady characters. At least in my position where I have leverage based on my certifications and experience. You couldn't pay me enough to frame these days. Which is why I invested in myself years ago through education and tooling. I was taught to work smarter, not harder which is why I'm a technician and not a laborer/mechanic.

And for the record, this is an age old problem. I remember my grand father and great grandfather complaining they can't find good help. They were general contractors. Pick an age, and there are workers and the worthless. The percentage of each has been pretty steady over the years.

[psychicrhino]

i have done very well as a framer. people i know have put me down for being a "construction worker", fact is i have a better quality of life than many. i have worked very hard, and used my money wisely. ANYONE who has a brain, and works like i did can do well too. sure $15 an hour is not a great wage to live on, it is NOT intended to be. it is a STARTING point. i starting working as a hoddy in aspen in 1987. by 1993 i was an independent framing contractor. people who come to work for me usually have more experience and get paid more than that, but they do not get there right off the bat. if someone has little experience and works hard, shows up everyday and cares about what they do, they will be making far more than $15 an hour in a few weeks. if not, well then they are destined to a life of poverty.

buy tools? YES, buy tools. how is a person supposed to go through life without tools? when i was 19 i was put in charge of jobs my first day on the job, the boss saw how i worked and wanted me to get others to do the same. i never liked the idea of using someone else's tools.......

i am so tired of people saying that they can't live on what their pay rate is. the job pays what it is worth, not what you need or want. if i paid starting guys $20 an hour, i would not make any money. if i did not make any money i would not be in business to hire them. so many also do not understand that if i pay them $20, it costs me another $9 for taxes and insurance.

I am not a tradesman. I am a nurse. When I was in HS, I gravitated to mechanical things. Took Ag classes where I learened to cut and weld steel, took a mechanic/ engine rebuild class at jr. college, made pochet mone doing shade tree work like water pumps, starters, fuel pumps and such. Worked as an electricians helper, learned to bend conduid, climb poles ( I am a big guy so picture a bear humping up a 4' tooth pick), worked as a pipe fitters helper and a warehouseman at a brewery, worked for another contractor pouring concrete, tearing off roofs, carrying bundles of shingles up ladders and such. Then I graduated college and did not owe a dime.

Maybe there are HS boys who would want to learn carpentry work in the summer? No, they would not be good ongoing hands, but might get a summer or two out of em until they go off to college, or maybe workem a little on saturdays with clean up or one man framing work when school is back in.

I am now 40 and have been building my own house for two years now. Lastspring I decided to try to get a helper ready to work with me all summer ( I was teaching at a nursing school and had nearly 3 mo off in summer). Anyway, Only guys I could find were mostly ex-cons, or professed rehabbed dope heads. Even tried to work one that said he was experienced in construction. He talked nonstop about meth and all his legal woes. That was OK, work ethic poor, sub 1st grade ability to engage in simple mathmatics for making cuts, etc. Ran him off after a week.

Then contacted the local Ag/ shop teacher inquiring about a helper old enuff to drive. I mostly just needed an extra set of hands. Went through 7 boys. Some would show up late -> fired. Some hade attitude -> fired. One was deathly afraid of heights encountered on an 8' ladder -> fired. One was so out of shape that I tried to give him a break from hauling decking by having him push a broom for a while. Pushed it so slow that it was hard to see if he was moving -> fired. I now have a young man that was 17 when I started him last spring. Worked w me all summer, and most saturdays this fall, spring. Will work w me again all this summer.

He is an honor student, eagle scout from a one parent family. If he wants something he has to hustle for it. He did not know anything when I hired him. Taught him framing and all the tools that go with it. Gave him a basic text to study and we would discuss it during coffee breaks. Taught him a/c duct work. Faught him how to rough in wiring and calculate loads and lay circuits for residential. I only have to tell him any thing one time. He is always on time and always stays busy. He will ask me lots of questions when we take a break about the whys and hows. "What is the diff in 110v 220 volt. ?""Diff in single and 3phase?""why is the hot side of the outlet have a copper screw and the common side a silver screw?"" what is the diff in sine wave, modified sine""what is the diff in amps, volts, watts?" Soo, I answer all I can and ultimatly, usually have to admit when he has plumbed the depth of my knwledge on any on topic and offer him a book.

Soon I will teach him plumbimg and septic. In the fall he will head off to college and I will try to work him over the holidays. During lunch breaks I am teaching him to reload.

I started him at $10 hr last year, he now makes 12.50$ cash. He has an interest in learning. I give him hand me down tools on birthdays, Christmas etc. He is nearly finished building his mother a back yard shed. I will probably bump his pay again soon.

I say all this to suggest maybe another source of help, to say that there are some young guys willing to hustle. And to wish you good luck.

[KAF]

Work ethic is pretty much gone in young folk. All winter long, lots of snow, schools closed. Not ONE of the neighborhood kids even asked if they could shovel drives etc.
Been in this house over 20 yrs, had one kid ask to do the drive, I paid him well instead of doing it myself with my Snow Blower.
Never a kid ask to mow, rake nothing. But they all drive decent cars and sleep to noon and ride ATV's up and down the streets even tho illegal.
Lazy, worthless parents, raise lazy worthless kids.......... ********* raise *********

[garym1a2]

what do we expect when goverment gives people money for not working!

Work ethic is pretty much gone in young folk. All winter long, lots of snow, schools closed. Not ONE of the neighborhood kids even asked if they could shovel drives etc.
Been in this house over 20 yrs, had one kid ask to do the drive, I paid him well instead of doing it myself with my Snow Blower.
Never a kid ask to mow, rake nothing. But they all drive decent cars and sleep to noon and ride ATV's up and down the streets even tho illegal.
Lazy, worthless parents, raise lazy worthless kids.......... ********* raise *********

[w5pv]

My friend who is a superviser at one of the local refiners was talking about they went through 90 applicants before they found one that met their standards.Most wouldn't show back up when they found out that drug testing was one of the requirements for the job.They were lookingf for an instrument/electrical person.

[snowwolfe]

You really think the work ethic is gone? I'll pass along a short story about when we moved into our last house when our son was about 12 in the year 2000. In the summer he would make $25 for cutting a lawn and most days he could cut 3 or 4. All small yards and it took less than an hour per yard. He would also clean a yard of dog **** and they paid the same, $25.
The kicker was every house he worked at had kids his age or older sitting inside either playing video games or online. Talked to a couple of the parents and they were very adamant their kids would NEVER be required to do something so menial as grass cutting. I would estimate 3/4's of the parents were either physicians, dentists, or attorneys.

In 90% of the cases blame the parents. My son loved their "work ethic" as it kept his pockets full as long as he wanted.

[Dale in Louisiana]

My friend who is a supervisor at one of the local refiners was talking about they went through 90 applicants before they found one that met their standards.Most wouldn't show back up when they found out that drug testing was one of the requirements for the job.They were looking for an instrument/electrical person.

You're right. I've worked in and out of the petrochemical plants up and down the Gulf Coast for years.

A halfway decent I&E tech is a potential six-figure job after a couple of years proving himself. So is a good welder or pipefitter or millwright, if they know their craft and if they can manage to show up for work sober.

With all the construction work breaking loose in this area, it's going to get worse, too.

dale in Louisiana

[Love Life]

You really think the work ethic is gone? I'll pass along a short story about when we moved into our last house when our son was about 12 in the year 2000. In the summer he would make $25 for cutting a lawn and most days he could cut 3 or 4. All small yards and it took less than an hour per yard. He would also clean a yard of dog **** and they paid the same, $25.
The kicker was every house he worked at had kids his age or older sitting inside either playing video games or online. Talked to a couple of the parents and they were very adamant their kids would NEVER be required to do something so menial as grass cutting. I would estimate 3/4's of the parents were either physicians, dentists, or attorneys.

In 90% of the cases blame the parents. My son loved their "work ethic" as it kept his pockets full as long as he wanted.

There are hard workers out there, but most of those are already employed since they are jewels in today's world.

[archmaker]

45 Cole the problem I see is that in the past finding students with high GPA's WAS a good indicator of intelligence, but no longer is that true. Companies are slow to make that change and you know the old model, if it isn't broke don't fix it (the don't see it is broke because there are partner's of the old school thought process that believe in it).

I can tell you that there are/was three guys that were considered the SME on hacking within in organization, one was an Accounting major with a 2.3GPA, another was a Journalism major with a 3.2GPA, and a Finance major with a 2.7GPA. Because they came into the firm as 'experience hires' they did not have to provide their GPA, or I doubt any one of the three would have been hired, yet those three represent some of the most utilized and trusted resources.

HR departments at big companies are doing the same as what the college students are doing: check the box - GPA high enough - Check, Right type of degree - Check, Well dressed - Check, no Tattoos - Check (I hide my only one, and then got another one after I was hired :) ), and the list goes on. I would prefer they find someone that can think instead of someone that looks good on paper. I understand the frustration of not having a job when you are more than capable of doing it, there is also the frustration that we can't find the right people to do the job for us, because the 'system' is all messed up.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

How many times have you heard the old saying, it's not what you know , it's who you know? What a crock ! When I was a supervisor at the phone company the last thing I wanted in my crew was a good friend who showed up late everyday. No matter how good a worker he is, you can't let his tardiness slide, then go after someone who also shows up late and does a lousy job. What I, and every other person who has a job to do appreciates is a person who shows up on time, does the job without being watched and doesn't constantly bitch about every little problem. If I found a person like that I didn't care what color, sex or nationality they were. To me they were a jewel to be treasured.

[winchester85]

sounds like the situation is the same everywhere.

it is too bad, when i retire it will be about the time that the lazy generation is to take over. i can only imagine that everything will go up in cost and quality will drop. in the mean time, it means that i can make even more money because i do work hard and know what i am doing. i will just do more of the work myself instead of hiring guys. in the past, the larger my crew was, the smaller my profit per hour was!

[.45Cole]

archmaker -As you can see from my profile pic, I'm pretty well dressed (and armed), and I don't have any tats. Honestly my gpa is what is holding me back. I started a "step up" job when I was halfway into high school. Through promotions and increases in compensation I never felt the need to leave. While the financial bomb exploded, I thought that my job (at a grocery store) was pretty secure from layoffs, so I worked overnight and paid off my education as I went. Unfortunately, you cant work full time and keep up with the HW and I was lower gpa b/c of the curve (hw is weighted more than tests). Now the three digit number that doesn't account for the high credit score, promotions/perseverance, and test scores is all that they look at. BUT, I have a final interview in two thurs and I guess maybe this one will turn out different. I always get an interview, but then they want my gpa.

You guys should throw me some luck, and hope the guy reloads!
PS 15/hr is what I made 10 years ago putting milk on shelves, plus vac and full benefits.

[ezed]

this sounds like a typical problem within this country. Here in the midwest, where you would expect kids to have worked hard in their younger days, they are lazy. Had one last week that was a common laborer, not hard work at all, actually a plant waterer....and he quit after one day on the job because " he didn't want to work". Go figure. When I was his age, I was bailing hay, doing concrete work, framing, horse **** shovelling, etc... and for a whole lot less money. My Dad, who just died one week ago, always told us kids.."you don't work, you don't eat" and we all have live by that message. Too bad kids these days didn't have my Dad around them!

[jsizemore]

I want to point out to folks that the lazy kids that people keep bellyaching about are the same kids that VOLUNTEERED to join up and do their duty for OUR COUNTRY. They watched and read about combat troops being maimed and killed and still joined and served with honor. When I joined up more then 40 years ago to do my duty there were plenty of kids that didn't, the same as happened for generations before mine. There always has been and always will be those that do and those that have an excuse.

[MT Gianni]

So much of it is liking where you are at. In 2007 I turned down $70 an hour to work out of Houston and $50 to work out of N Texas. No reason to believe I would be there longer than the job would last. I could make more on either coast or in the oil boom but like my benefits too much.
When I was in my 20 I followed good opportunities but didn't jump around much either.

[historicfirearms]

Sounds like winchester85 is a hard worker. Unfortunately, his shift key is not. Four pages and not one capitalized letter. Just kidding, of course! Good luck finding labor, remember the law of supply and demand and you will be fine.

[DCM]

Win 85 Based on your requirements, Try the local temp agencies as it appears to be temporary work from your description.
Good luck.

[winchester85]

IT IS NOT TEMP WORK.

temp services rarely ever have anyone worth using for more than a day or two. anybody any good is snatched up. i run my guys through the temp service. it is cheaper than paying them myself!

[montana_charlie]

I want to point out to folks that the lazy kids that people keep bellyaching about are the same kids that VOLUNTEERED to join up and do their duty for OUR COUNTRY.
Are they the same ones?
I have a feeling that the lazy ones are still at home studying their navels in attempts to find 'true self' between tokes on the reefer.
Anybody with enough gumption to go do their duty will also do their best to pay their own way.

CM

[psychicrhino]

Montana Charlie, made me smile when I read you'd typed "reefer", hadn't heard that one in a while! :)

[MaryB]

Last job I had at the casino was a classic case of who you knew is how you got the job, laziest bunch of idiots I have ever worked with. All friends of the boss so they never got reprimanded often. Boss did finally have it with them one day when we had 200 slots to move in 8 hours and they spend half the day smoking and drinking pop(was free). Boss and myself moved 120 machines, 5 other guys moved 80... he blew up and they all had a week off no pay and the 4-mids got to work days and a double if they wanted the overtime(most did, that shift was a bunch of hard workers, I moved up from there to days).

Day the lazy idiots came back boss sat them down and proceeded to scream at them for 2 hours, then he quit and said what a bunch of fine friends you all are. About a year later I tore up my back from the constant lifting and retired. Last I heard the day shift had been moved to graveyards and the 4-mid crew was given the day slot because they actually worked. Bunch quit when they got mids and had to be replaced so maybe that place has finally gotten crews that work and get the job done.

And I never had an issue sitting around doing nothing as long as the days work was done and out of the way. Then they could go do as they please, got them out of the shop so I could repair monitors and boards for the slots without a bunch of horseplay. The hideout was our parts warehouse, no cameras so they could smoke on the job.

[dakotashooter2]

The problem with a lot of people that apply for work in the trades is all they care about is a paycheck and that often only needs to be enough to get them through the next weekend. So if that only takes 3 days of work that is all they will show up. Or every time they find a job that pays a dime more (and I literally mean a dime) they jump ship. In my area we have people quit work at the local manufacturing plant in the fall to work harvest for a month and maybe take home a couple grand more...........which they burn through because they are unemployed for the next 2 months. We get a lot of migrant workers in my area...maybe 5% of those that claim to be carpenters actually know what they are doing. I see it because I'm a building inspector. Most of our local long standing contractor/carpenters are booked out for at least a year and the larger ones are having the same trouble finding help as elsewhere.

[MaryB]

Sad commentary on our society these days that the work ethic that built this country is disappearing rapidly.

[DCM]

IT IS NOT TEMP WORK.

OK you said you have 2 houses to frame this summer, then what??

What percentage of folks that work construction can say they worked 40+ hours/wk 50-52 weeks/year for 30-40 years straight especially in the last 5-10 years???

[plmitch]

OK you said you have 2 houses to frame this summer, then what??

What percentage of folks that work construction can say they worked 40+ hours/wk 50-52 weeks/year for 30-40 years straight especially in the last 5-10 years???


In this area a very high percentage, there is no shortage of work for those who want to.

[jmort]

Not here, that is certain. Prevailing wage work exists, but otherwise it's a toilet.

[JWT]

I run large industrial construction projects. We staff out of the local union halls. The talent level of people that we get in the millwright and ironworker fields has falen off dramatically in the last 10 years. And when you do find them, they don't have the same pride in the quality and quantity of work they do.

On another note we are actually getting no shows for inteviews to hire engineers.

[MaryB]

Construction here stops most of the winter, very few crews who work through the snow and ice. Many of the carpenters and house builders around here are also school teachers, use the summer off to build 1 or 2 houses.