What parts to use in 1858 copies?

[Tackleberry41]

I have 2 of the pietta 1858 copies. One an old one, no idea on vintage, given to me as it was locked up from not cleaning after firing. And a new one bought 2 christmas ago, shorter barrel. I have a conversion cylinder, fits in both.

Question is since you dont need all the hammer strength with a conversion cylinder, what parts do you buy to improve the trigger in the guns? What fits in them?

[swathdiver]

The older gun will have a narrower bolt which fits in the narrower bolt slot on the cylinder compared to todays production. You can however narrower the new bolt to fit the old gun.

I think the wolf spring or some other brand that Brownell's sells will adapt for use in the Remington. They were originally made for the Colt Peacemaker. The hammer spring can be narrowed or of course adjusted by the screw.

[Enyaw]

People hour glass shape the mainspring on a grinder or file it (keep spring dipped in cold water often to not over heat and loose temper) to reduce the hammer fall and the trigger pull. Leave the top and the bottom of the mainspring the same as they came and thin the middle some and the hammer fall will lessen as will the trigger pull.

Work in steps and try it out for the pull you want. Don't hog the spring away too much right off the bat.

Then trigger side of the trigger/bolt spring can be thinned also to get a slightly lighter trigger pull. It's the mainspring that "heavies" the trigger pull the most.

Unless you have experience you don't want to fool with the hammers full cock notch angle or the triggers sear angle.

Taylors & Company sells reduced tension springs in kits made by Wolf and others. VTI Gunparts sell the same stuff. Dixie Gun Works out of Tenn. sells parts also as does Brownells and Cimarron in Texas and "The Possibles Shop". All on line.

You can get a crisp trigger break like "breaking a glass rod" but.....you have to know what yer doin or end up with a "hair trigger". Better to not mess with the hammer or the trigger.

There are places and people that frequent the "CASS" web site that are professionals or handy men craftsmen that will do work fer Hombres not born with the mechanical aptitude to work on guns triggers. There is a forum on the "CASS" that deals only in Remington revolvers. It can be interesting reading and replying. Lots of knowledge and of course some "internet bullpucky" too.

I've done plenty of work on Remingtons Revolvers. I own about five or six or maybe seven Remmies.

The conversion cylinders for them are cool to own. The hammer needs tuned so it doesn't bang the firing pins of those conversion cylinders too much. Sorta like making a cap&baller "dry fire safe" but protecting the firing pins and not the nipples. You know...making the hammer stop in the right place so it doesn't try to hammer the firing pins thru the cartridge or bang up the firing pin bushings.

I sold one of the most accurate reliable converted Remingtons I ever had to an Hombre I shoot with on all too rare occaisions. It could put the shots in the bread basket out to three hundred yards and further with the 45 Colt cartridges. Amazing. Shooting cast bullets at around 850fps and around 6.5 gr. Red Dot powder. We tested the gun out on the farm he owned for awhile till fate took it away. Good times.

I don't believe the Hombre knows what a good piece of hardware he has since he is of the "MAGNUM" mind set and......is also in love with semi-auto pistols that shoot double taps like laser beams. Anywhooooo.....that's besides the point unless you get the point.....Remington cap&ballers are good fun guns to play with. He'll learn some day.

You don't want to set up like the gun ends up with too much of a "hair pin" trigger pull that a slight breeeze will fire the gun ,for safety reasons, or like when you go to draw a bead on the target and go to find the trigger and a slight touch sets the hammer loose with a faintest touch prematurely. You knowthat anyway so why say it. I guess fer newbies it's a good thing to thunk on. Safety concerns.

[DR Owl Creek]

Enyaw knows of what he speaks. That 58 Remington has the R&D conversion cylinder from Kenny Howell. It really is a shooter. Enyaw slicked it up pretty nice, and used an 11 degree reamer on the forcing cone to take care of a little particle spitting problem too.

Enyaw built some really beautiful Hawkens for me. He's also kinda the Imelda Marcos of cap & ballers too.

Evad

[DR Owl Creek]

I've been trying to get Enyaw to move into some more modern guns (like something from the 20th century or later) for a long time, but haven't had much luck so far.

Evad

[Tackleberry41]

I know the usual tricks like just taking them apart, and making the parts fit better, stuff they arent going to do on a cheap gun.

Problem I have run into is they are both piettas, same gun, but very different. No idea on the older ones vintage, but the frame is narrower as are the grips, grips and frame are even shorter. You cant get 3 fingers around the grip like my other one. Almost like my wifes 38 snubnose. I compared things, grips are no way interchangable, shape, length, thickness. I have a package of pietta replacement parts, not much will work in the old one without modding them.

I like the old one, pretty accurate, has the longer barrel, even ram arm is longer. But that grip just doesnt fit well, middle finger jammed up between the grip and trigger guard. So guess it means some time in the garage making a larger set to fit. Cant complain about it being a free gun. Somebody didnt clean it, froze everything, broke the end of the cylinder pin off trying to get it out. I just welded a piece on and ground it to shape.

Would like a conversion cylinder for both. One using the Howell style since already have it. But would rather go with a kirst side loading gate style. They that hard to put in for somebody with decent skills, vs sending it back for fitting? Or buy a new gun and convert it. I like the remington style, only experience with the 1851 style is an old CVA kit gun. Thought I saw a 6 shot side gate conversion for the 1851, vs the 5 shot 1858 kirst sells? Or maybe a smaller 36 cal, do a barrel liner?

[swathdiver]

I have a package of pietta replacement parts, not much will work in the old one without modding them.

If you replace ALL the parts with those from the kit, it'll work. BUT! You either have to narrow the new bolt or replace the cylinder with a new production one. (Sell off the old cylinder on ebay or keep around) BUT! Before doing that, make sure the new cylinder will work in time with the old gun. Never had that problem myself but have read that others have.

On the frame will be a square generally with two letters inside. Even older guns had no square but either just roman numerals or roman numbers with a regular number at the end. We can tell you when it was made, maybe someone has a chart handy they can post for you too.

[Enyaw]

I'd say workin with the older gun fer conversion to cartridge or regular maintainance keepin it on the road ,so to speak, takes a person with some degree of mechanical aptitude and the desire to get the job done.
Tackleberry seems to have surpassed "Kitchen Table Gunsmith 102 so .....have at it and thunkit thru before startin.

Things that get a little more involved than changin parts or modifying parts to work. Things like little innovative moves like making a grip fer one side of a Remmy that hangs down below the bottom of the backstrap and the other hanging below but with a bottom that wraps under the backstrap to meet the other hangin low grip so.......
when the grips are screwed on they make a longer gripframe fer bigger/more fingers. thats easier and more do-able than modifying the metal of the grip frame with welding and all that. Wood works easier and if ya screw up a little then gettin more wood and startin over is cheap.
Cinvertin an older gun where the newer conversions don't slap right in.......moght look at some books about how the early Remingtons were converted with lathing off the rear of the cylinder and making a two piece from the original cylinder by braising on a bored thru back end or getting a machinist gunsmith to just make acylinder fer the gun that is a longer bored thru repacement made fer the gun instead of trying to use a modern conversion meant fer the newer guns.
If you use the original cylinder of the gun and braise on a new bored thru back end the use of ,"blackpowder only", still applies.
Using newer conversion cylinder on an older gun the things to check and compare before hand are things like the distance from the center cylinder hole to the center of the chambers to see if the chambers can even align with the bore of the older gun and....how the hand channel fits the backof the ratchets for indexing. It's hard to change that hand channel to get the things to work. How the hand engages the rear of the cylinder and how the hammer is placed and all that can get into the "almost impossible" realm makin a cylinder not fitted to a gun "get fitted" proper enough. Might not be worth the trouble unless yer "really wantin" the gun changed with a newer designed cylinder fer a newer gun.
If a newer cylinder was just too much trouble I'd go with lathing off the nipple stuff off the rear of the old cylinder and make or get made a rear that's bored thru and slips over the ratchet left on the old cylinder and use braising flux(that paste made fer braising two flat things together) to make the two parts one whole cylinder. Remington used that type modification back in the day to use cartridges in a cap&baller.
They made the longer bored thru new cylinders too with a dovetailed backplate that was thin but worked well. That was used with the braised two piece cylinder also.

Fitting a new conversion cylinder to a Remmy isn't difficult. Some times some frame under the front of the new cylinder needs filed down so the cylinder pin can go thru properly. Stuff like that. Nothing really over the head of a regular "Kitchen Table Gunsmith".
When you work a project yer self,even with the help of a machinist, the end result is quite satisfying and can be yer pride and joy.

Bout the 1851 Colt conversions.....the barrels can be sleeved to take normal size 38 bullets or....heel bullet moulds and a coupla dies from "Old West Moulds" makes a original type conversion using heeled bullets fitted to the barrel grooves and bore.
You know....buy the conversion from Kirst or Old West Conversions(Howwel) and make yer choice...heeled bullets with a coupla new dies to crimp them and seat them or use a barrel sleeve to use regular 38's bullets. The Kirst doen't have chamber throats fer the regular 38's but Ken Howell(Old West Conversions) does have the throats in the chambers if you want that type to use fer a sleeved to regular 38's barrel.
One trick I should mention bout fixin older guns where parts are not available. Parts can be made or the old ones wire welded(mig) and filed to shape/fit like a new part. Keeps them on the road so to speak. You know...weld,shape,fit,reharden/temper and slap it backin the gun and get back to shootin.
Any "Kitchen Table Gunsmith" worth his/her salt can stumble thru that.

[Tackleberry41]

I have never seen a book on how they converted them in the old days, would like to have one. I have looked at and measured the cylinders wondering what could be done with one in my lathe. Have a 45 colt reamer. I would imagine there were more than 2 types of conversions back in those days, doubt many included ordering a premachined heat treated 4130 cylinder from some yankee. Seems like a version of the howell style could be made the easiest, using the existing cylinder, lathe a step so you could use the original teeth for the pawl to turn. The firing pins are cheap enough. But would prefer a kirst style. I needed to order some metal anyways. Might work it up on the CVA 1851, no great loss I ruin something figuring it out.

Guess I will get mahogany grips, since there is a big 5/4 chunk in the garage from building guitars. Usual problem is having time to dedicate to such things, with all the other projects.

[Enyaw]

Howdy again!
There were more than two ways to convert a Remmy that the factory did back then trying things out.
The one with the thin backplate dovetailed to the frame with a two piece braised cylinder and then a longer cylinder made seem to dominate the process. Allthe ways Remington tried it out worked well.
First was a conversion to 46cal. but later they adopted the 44 Colt typesince it was dominating the market.
Using 44 Colt with the heel bullet would be cool and leave more steel. I wouldn't try a conversion using 45 Colt unless a larger cylinder was used because of the 45 Colts diameter is large.The Howell conversion cylinders use a slight angle to the cartridges chambers to facilitate thier use. I thunk tonot leave the metalunder the cylinder notches too thin.
I'd go with a 44 Colt/special cartridge if I were to convert with an original cylinder that the gun has whether it was the older gun or the new. If the conversion cylinder was to be used with a hammer that was modified to strike the primer thu a firing pin hole there's no need for all six firing pins and the removable rear to the cylinder.

I like the conversions they did with the new long cylinder or the old one made long with a braised on rear(that went over the ratchets that wern't lathed off).

Theyn did do what Howell did and that would be because of accomodating the case head rims. The removable rear to the cylinder made it easier to chamber without milling away toomuch of the ratchet index on the rear of the cylinder.

I thunk the easiest to do with an older gun that the new conversion kits aren't made for would be the "thin backplate dovetailed to the frame and the longer cylinder(whether it be a new long one or the old one made long with a new rear braised on)and no side loading gate but...with a side loading port. Kirst made those at one time. A side port backplate with no gate and the gun owner filed a loading port into the side of the frame. Remington did the same and it works good.Coltdid ittoo. Side gates for loading aren't needed unless you shoot at stuff at a high elevation and keep the gun pointed up when drawing back the hammer to rotate to a new chambered cartridge. The case just fired can slipback and out slightly(not all the time if the cases are snug in the chambers) if the gun is cocked pointing upwards too much.
The new "Guns of the Old West" magazine has a pic of the conversion with the thin backplate dovetailed and a longer cylinder on the front cover and more in an article inside the magazine. An article bout the converted Remmies.

I have some guns with the side loading port with no gate and...they aren't aproblem.They work.

You could Google "original Remington pistol conversions to cartridge" and get lots of info I'd thunk.
If you really wanted toconvert to the long cylinder type ask Ken Howell at "Old West Conversions tomake you a 44Colt/44Special new cylinder to fit yer un. He could dothe backplate and the hammer converted to a firing pin point too. "Old West Moulds" and Bernie Rowls could make the coupla dies fer loading the heeled bullets and the mould. Do what you thunk you could do yerself and leave the rest to the "exspurts" of let the "exspurts" do it all. ha ha ha

They had long cylinder Colts converted backin the day too.

If you make a thick backplate you don't need a long cylinder though.......just a long firing pin on the hammer or one fixed into the plate with a spring to retract it.

It's do-able if a person really wanted toconvert an older gun that no kit is available for.
Of course....ifone were to leave the old gun with a modified gripand left percussion and convert the newer gun with a slip in conversion kit......life would be easier if time is of the essence like it is fer working Hombres that have to feed Mamma and the dogs. Sometimes the kids too if they can't fight the dogs fer their food.

[Tackleberry41]

I hate paying more for a conversion cylinder than the gun. Very happy with the one I have, just not willing to shell out the money for another one, way to many other things that require cash. This would be a back burner kind of thing as I have a ton of projects as it is. I saw a conversion a while back, wasnt available for sale, I guess seeing if somebody would buy the patent or something. It was a 22lr conversion, had a barrel that slid inside original one, a threaded cap to keep it in place, new cylinder and back plate, cant remember the name of it started with a V I think. I wondered if something similar but with larger bore ammo could be done, obviously low pressure. The 32 S&W or something like it. But not be easy to convert an existing 44 cylinder to that, and machining a new cylinder is beyond the tools in my garage. Dont see how I could convert an existing 1851 style with the stepped cylinder.

I did several searches but all that ever comes up is the drop in conversions. Be nice to see some pictures of the old school conversions. Might have to find me a copy of that magazine to look at. A 44 conversion would of course require a nice 'cheap' reamer. Already have a 45 colt one in the drawer. I think the howell and kirst get away with it thru heat treatment and stronger modern steels. Theres a heat treating place not far away if I had to resort to it.

I was just banging away at ideas. Some I look at and go hmm thats gonna take a while and forget about them, or simply diminishing returns. A set of grips tho arent a huge deal.

[Enyaw]

I wanted to get back here earlier but had to finish the grass.

I have to apologize for making a mistake. I don't do that often(that's what she said) but....


I was talking Remingtons and was thunkin Colts. I mess with Colts more.

The Remington can't have the back of the cylinder turned off and leave the ratchet(index steps) to slip a new bored thru back end on the cylinder. The new back end needs the ratchet index notches cut into it.

It's easier to convert a Colt to "long cylinder" for cartridges because of leaving the original ratchet teeth on the original cylinder.

One other slip up is....the rebated 44 Colt type cylinder can't be used and drilled thru since the index notches will get holes open up. The 36cal. Colt can be done with the original cylinder to convert to cartridge since it's bored thru the samw size as the chambers already are.

The conversion kits are expensive. Once an Hombre has one and shoots the Remmy with 45 Colts he forgets the pain of buying the conversion. han ha ha At least I did. So I bought another fer the stainless steel Remington I had.