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161
04-27-2014, 01:50 PM
I made a post about my 310 LEE .430 jumping forward during firing. Somebody told me I needed a different sizing die for tighter neck tension. They said I can't depend on the crimp alone to hold. I did a search and can't find it. Anybody know what I need to get. I been using LEE dies and apparently they aren't sizing tight enough.

gray wolf
04-27-2014, 02:10 PM
What brass are you using ? is it to thin as in Remington ? is your expander the standard J-bullet expander.
Are your bullet to soft and being reduced in size ?
Talk about your crimp, just how heavy or light is it.
How about a Lee custom factory 44 mag collet type crimp die, I think some are still available.

fredj338
04-27-2014, 02:52 PM
Check your expander size, a 0430" bullet will work in most 44mags. Diff brass will have diff thickness, RP bring among the thinnest Ime. A 300gr bullet running hard needs a good roll crimp.

MtGun44
04-27-2014, 06:38 PM
More likely too big of an expander than too large a sizer.

Bill

161
04-27-2014, 08:11 PM
Just getting home had to make a run to Des Moines 5 hours on the road. On the drive I remembered a set of Lyman dies that I never used. They definitely size smaller than the Lee. I don't use an expander, I bell the mouth with the Lee disc measure. Alloy is water dropped COWW. I worked a load up with 16 gr of 2400 and had to increase the crimp. I posted some pictures that I can't find now. And somebody told me I needed more case tension. I had to switch to Accurate #9 because that's all I could get. 15.5 gr of #9 shoots a little better but now the 6th rnd. is shook loose by the time I get to it. I'll try some with the cases sized in the Lyman and see what happens. The two case that jumped today were one WW and one R-P.

44man
04-28-2014, 07:39 AM
The guys are right, it is the expander. Every size die I tried was OK.
The reason the Hornady dies work good is the expander only goes in the brass about 3/8" letting the boolit expand the rest as it is seated. Need a tough boolit.
Even my .500 will not pull boolits with a mild crimp.
I use Rem brass in my .44 and even the 330 gr I shoot does not pull. Or the Lee 310 with those tiny crimp grooves. I wish Lee would learn to cut grooves!

161
04-28-2014, 08:26 AM
The guys are right, it is the expander. Every size die I tried was OK.
The reason the Hornady dies work good is the expander only goes in the brass about 3/8" letting the boolit expand the rest as it is seated. Need a tough boolit.
Even my .500 will not pull boolits with a mild crimp.
I use Rem brass in my .44 and even the 330 gr I shoot does not pull. Or the Lee 310 with those tiny crimp grooves. I wish Lee would learn to cut grooves!
Isn't that how the Lee dies work. I guess I'm lost. I'm sure the powder die with the Lee disc measure only bells the mouth of the case. I'm sure there is no expander.

161
04-28-2014, 08:48 AM
I just did some measuring fired case from my SBH is.455 Sized in the LEE die is .451 same case in the Lyman die is .449 after it goes through the powder measure to bell the mouth, still .449, loaded rnd is .452.

captaint
04-28-2014, 08:58 AM
Let's talk about brass. When you seat your boolit, can you just look at the brass case and "see" where the boolit stops ?? I can always see where my boolit is by looking at the subtle rolls on the case wall. Too tight ?? I think not, not in my ammo anyway. I'm not sizing my boolits down with the brass. So - if your sizing die is sizing your case proper, you should be able to "see" where the boolit is. Crimp em right and all should be well. I must admit though, I've never loaded the 300gr boolits, either. My take. Mike

44man
04-28-2014, 09:14 AM
I don't know about the Lee powder through.
My experiments started long ago when I shot IHMSA with the .44. I found the case tension problem and had special BR collar dies made with no expander. It worked and it took years to find Hornady dies will equal them.
You need to inform me about Lee. Does the size die size enough? Is there an expander step before the flare from the powder through die? I just don't know because I only use what works. I have no idea if you have case tension from a Lee size die. Lee gets too much wrong as does Lyman. Why would anyone use an "M" die?
I bought a Lyman neck die for the 45-70 and a .459" boolit will fall in the case.
A proper .44 load will show the boolit base and ripples from GG's through the brass. If a boolit will slip in the case, toss the dies. You will get everyone saying you need a tighter crimp and that is false. You will be told hard crimps will aid powder burn, I wish that would go away, The horse died long ago.
I bet 90% of answers will say to crimp more! NOT ME!

RobS
04-28-2014, 09:16 AM
New brass or how many times fired? New brass sometimes doesn't have the tension on the boolit that even once fired brass has?

RobS
04-28-2014, 09:20 AM
44man: The lee powder through/expander dies typically is 1/4-3/8" (depends on how much you bell or flare the case) or so deep in the case. Very similar to the Hornady dies it appears.

44man
04-28-2014, 09:32 AM
My work started with jacketed bullets. When a loose fit can have a POI 10" to 12" from a tight bullet, why does anyone think a soft lead boolit needs less?
I have no measurements for expanders to give anyone. I will never over expand for soft boolits. I will not use soft that brass will size.
Mike has a good handle on this.

DougGuy
04-28-2014, 09:49 AM
I use that same Lee 310 RF boolit in a couple different alloys, and I use the Lee expander that's in the powder through die with no issues. I size to .432" which you can take a Lee .430 sizing die and hone it out with a simple dowel hone if you can't get a Lee .432" die. There was some made for Ranch Dog that were selling on ebay from Sage's Outdoors.

I do use a modified Lee collet crimp die which I can promise you won't have any boolit jump whatsoever if you do it like I did mine here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

You DO need neck tension. Good neck tension will let you look at the loaded round and see the base of the boolit, and the lube groove edges, right through the brass. Good consistent neck tension AND a consistent crimp (that means trimming cases so the crimp die exerts the same force on all of them) will cut your standard deviation which greatly improves accuracy. The collet type die is not really necessary if you can get a good roll crimp, but what IS necessary is that the roll crimp be consistent from case to case. You may not achieve this with mixed brass unless you separate the brass and run them in batches, adjusting the crimp as needed when switching brands. I started using one of the Lee deluxe case trimmers so all the cases are the same length and it really helps make consistent boolit seating depth and consistent crimps a breeze.

The one thing the collet crimp will do, is no matter how deep you seat the boolit, even if there is no crimp groove or the groove is a chicken scratch and not large enough to roll the case mouth in, the collet will crimp right into the side of the boolit, just like the collet rifle die does.

RobS: With the 310 RF boolit, the Lee expander does not reach as far down in the case as the gas check on this boolit reaches. Even seated in the bottom crimp groove, the gas check has to finish expanding the case as the boolit is seated.

RobS
04-28-2014, 10:19 AM
RobS: With the 310 RF boolit, the Lee expander does not reach as far down in the case as the gas check on this boolit reaches. Even seated in the bottom crimp groove, the gas check has to finish expanding the case as the boolit is seated.

Yep and more than likely as in the scenario with most Lee dies the sliding expander/flare insert of the powder through die may go down into the brass that 1/4-3/8" as one can see by drawing a vertical line on the inside of the case with a marker it doesn't mean that the brass was expanded enough to be any different that far down vs. the before dimensions of the case that came from the sizing die.

DougGuy
04-28-2014, 10:29 AM
Isn't that how the Lee dies work. I guess I'm lost. I'm sure the powder die with the Lee disc measure only bells the mouth of the case. I'm sure there is no expander.

The powder through expanding die expands below the flare part.

It sounds like there just isn't enough case neck tension from the boolit being sized small. Lee made .429" and .430" sizing dies for .44 magnum. If you are using a .429" that may be the problem right there, it's just sizing the boolits too small so they don't have decent neck tension.

They also made .425" and .427" for 44-40 if I am not mistaken. If you have gotten hold of one of those 44-40 sizers, it will sure mess up your day loading for .44 magnum.

44man
04-28-2014, 11:24 AM
I found a large problem with GC boolits. Say you have a .430" boolit and run through a .432' size die to seat checks. WRONG. The check will size the brass larger then the boolit and reduce tension. Use a size die the same as the boolit so a .430" die should be used with a .430" boolit.
To over crimp into lead only leads to the boolit being sized when shot through the crimp. The FCD can ruin accuracy and brass. Look at fired brass, if you see any crimp left you are doing wrong.
Over crimping can bulge brass under the crimp and that loosens case tension. So can a crimp die that tries to size brass under the crimp. Brass will snap back from the lead.

Quiettime
04-28-2014, 07:55 PM
have you measured the boolits after sizing? I had a ".309" sizer that was actually sizing to .308" and had to hone it out.

161
04-28-2014, 08:35 PM
103458
This is one of my modified LEE 240 SWC I took the shoulder for the GC off and opened the mold up. This is a boolit that I cast and sized to .430 and it bounced back to .431. I do have one of RD's .432 sizing die. This pic shows my crimp which I think should be sufficient. I can see a slight bulge where the slug stops in the case. The 310 does not do this. After reading through the above posts I found that the gas check is larger than the boolit itself. I have shot some of the 253 gr SWC in the above pick with a stiff charge of #9 without them moving. I need to separate brass by manufacture and get everything trimmed the same. My brass is everything including HI Vel

DougGuy
04-28-2014, 08:38 PM
Hmm.. Looking at that pic it looks like there is not enough neck tension. You would be able to see the base of the boolit and maybe even the lube grooves, because they distort the brass and that brass is perfectly straight and undistorted. Boolit sized too small?

161
04-28-2014, 09:04 PM
There is a slight distortion. I should have used something other than brown for background.

44man
04-29-2014, 08:53 AM
103494I made all kinds of .44 molds up to .434" for a Marlin and lapped out a pile of Lee dies. I found the GC was too large when I ran my .430" boolits through a .432" die. I was sizing the .432" RD, 265 gr and was too lazy to change the die for my other boolits.
One other thing to look for is a lube that is too slippery. I like Felix lube best but have been sent some great lubes to try, some work fine but when I tried Ben's Red, I had boolit movement. BR works great in my 30-30 though.
Just by shooting, I can tell what a lube or primer is doing. A mag primer in the .44 can move out a boolit before good ignition and groups will open as the air space in the brass changes. A slippery lube will pull boolits from recoil as well as move from the primer. Some primers generate 2000 psi.
I still believe a .44 case is too small to absorb a hot primer and I don't go to the mag until the .475, etc. Even the .45 Colt does not like a full mag but the WW primer is OK. My 45-70 revolver shoots better with a LP mag then it does with a LR primer.
Revolvers are a special thing in that there is nothing to keep boolits in until the powder has ignited.
New brass was mentioned and tests have shown tension varies a lot until brass has been shot some. I have a way to measure boolit seating pressure to sort and new brass is the worst. Work hardening has shown to be a good thing. A few will tell you to anneal revolver brass, don't do it!
Looking at the picture, the crimp is more then I use on my 330 gr, .44, the 420 in the .475 and the 440 in the .500 JRH.

44man
04-29-2014, 09:07 AM
Had some factory cast .454 loads here shot from a SRH. The crimp was a very hard, full profile and I asked why so much crimp???? It was either two or three shots and the gun locked up. I had to use a dowel to tap the other boolits back in the brass so the gun could be opened. None of my reloads pulled and a friend is using my boolits in his Freedom with max loads.

Whitespider
04-29-2014, 09:17 AM
I've had more than one problem with Lee sizing dies not reducing the case enough.
I have a Lee carbide .357 Magnum sizing die that leaves some cases where a .357-.358 diameter boolit will literally fall right in... it's been regulated to re-sizing .38 S&W brass for .361-.362 boolits.
My .38-40 sizing die wouldn't set the shoulder back enough and I had to remove .010 from the bottom of the die... I eventually replaced it with a different brand.
My .30-06 sizing die wouldn't size the case body enough to chamber unless I set the shoulder back way, way too far... I threw that one in the corn field.
Don't even get me started on the expander and seating dies...
I finally learned the lesson... I no longer buy Lee dies...
*

rhead
04-29-2014, 10:11 AM
I made a post about my 310 LEE .430 jumping forward during firing. Somebody told me I needed a different sizing die for tighter neck tension. They said I can't depend on the crimp alone to hold. I did a search and can't find it. Anybody know what I need to get. I been using LEE dies and apparently they aren't sizing tight enough.

Call me left handed but I read that as he is suggesting a larger boolit sizing die. You may have to lap a lee die our with a dowel pin and sandpaper.

Of course by boss once accused me of thinking that an oak tree was the method an acorn used to make more acorns.
He later admitted that what I was doing solved the problem.

dondiego
04-29-2014, 10:16 AM
I've had more trouble with RCBS dies. One set of new RCBS 9 MM dies wouldn't even size enough to allow a cartridge to seat in a Wolf barrel that was tight. The LEE sizer worked fine.

161
04-30-2014, 07:00 PM
I'll put some of the suggestions above to work and let you know what happens. I started trimming all my brass to the same length, about 1000. I'm going to try some of the 310s without GCs.

True.grit
04-30-2014, 09:53 PM
You might check you powder scale and see if you are over charging the powder. That's my 2 cents.

RobS
05-01-2014, 12:30 AM
In your photo above with your crimp it didn't look like you had the boolit quite seated all the way down so the brass was just under the front drive band there in the crimp groove, the crimp isn't in the middle of the crimp groove where it should be. Again it's hard to see but this means the crimp isn't in place to really maximize. You are on the right track though in trimming all to the same length though as this will keep all your crimps consistent and true. 44man's crimps, in particular on the first two (looking left to right) are perfect regards to the bullet seating depth and the crimp. Your picture is hard to see and you may be right on but I can tell if the shinny part of the brass at the top of the mouth at the crimp is the very edge of the brass or if it's the shinny part of the top of the boolit's crimp groove that is sticking out a top of the brass/crimp.

44man
05-01-2014, 07:54 AM
I seat so the brass is even with the top of the CG. I cut the CG a little deeper for the .500 so it looks different.
The boolits to watch are Lee. I do shoot the Lee 400 gr in the .475, CG's are very small but the brass holds them in. Never try to use as much crimp on Lee boolits. I use a thin spacer under my crimp, seat die when I load Lee boolits.
The RD 265 for my .44 has tiny CG's too but it is an extremely accurate boolit and has done 1-1/4" at 100 many times from my old SBH. The Lee 310 is super accurate and a proven deer killer from my guns.
Over crimping is very common because of the false assumption that it aids burn. Actually if you get a bulge below the crimp, you LOOSEN case tension. The FCD from Lee can shorten brass life and also size a boolit trying to exit the crimp. Full profile can ruin cast.
I have made many tests from no crimp, shooting single shot, to full profile and groups stayed the same until I ruined the boolits or the tension.
Brass should ONLY fold to the bottom of whatever groove your boolit has. Never force into the boolit.
Be more gentle with crimp.
If you have any crimp left on fired brass, the boolit is too soft and you turned the case into a size die. Crimp does not pop open before the boolit leaves and neither does any neck, the boolit opens crimp and pressure behind a boolit expands the necks.

44man
05-01-2014, 08:19 AM
I've had more trouble with RCBS dies. One set of new RCBS 9 MM dies wouldn't even size enough to allow a cartridge to seat in a Wolf barrel that was tight. The LEE sizer worked fine.
Funny to hear that. When I started IHMSA I used RCBS dies and could barely hit half the steel with my .44. I found the case tension problems with the over large expander and had special BR collar dies made for the .44. The BR die maker understood and worked with me. All I needed was a flare tool that did not expand and the large selection of collars he made me just let me select one that worked.
Yes, I really do have collar dies for the .44. They allowed me to shoot tons of 40's and to win Ohio state with 79 out of 80, last ram miss was me only.
At the time I also found the primer problem with mag primers and a problem with the 4227's with the .44.
Now I use Hornady dies for all of my guns, they match BR dies.
I had the article about the 1 MOA revolver that they spent thousands on the gun, special barrels, throating, etc.
I have taken out of box Rugers and BFR's and shot hundreds of groups at 100 that are under 1", some to 1/2" because of how I load. Most times it is NOT the gun. The BFR is the most accurate revolver ever made. Next was the SRH and the SBH Hunter.

dondiego
05-01-2014, 09:20 AM
44man- Could you describe the problem with 4227 powder please?

44man
05-01-2014, 11:00 AM
44man- Could you describe the problem with 4227 powder please?
Yes. I shot the best group ever at 200 meters when working loads but once at a real shoot I would hit dead center, then lower and lower and lower with each shot. At 200 meters I had to raise the sight for each target until I was 16 clicks over normal and still hit ground 50 meters short. primers got flatter and flatter too so pressure was rising along with velocity. I reduced the load and it still happened. Gun heat was changing it.
The .357 max loved the powder but not the .44. I can not explain it in the .44 because it is a good powder in some calibers.
Only when I went to 296 and a Fed 150 primer did I start to win.
Some calibers are so powder specific I can't explain it. I have made a few posts about powders that do not work in some guns but wish I could make a list.
In the .44 it is gun heat!

dondiego
05-01-2014, 11:54 AM
44man - Do you feel it is firearm specific or caliber specific? That is really weird!

44man
05-01-2014, 01:29 PM
44man - Do you feel it is firearm specific or caliber specific? That is really weird!
I think it is just the .44 as it works in others. Many IHMSA shooters used it in the .44 and to tell the truth, I never heard so much cussing on the line. Guys use 25 gr with a 240 bullet but even 21 gave me the same trouble. I never tried it in the .45 Colt but it was amazing in the .357 max. I shot a 39 out of 40 with a new Ruger with no sight settings using 4227.
I hate the powder in my 45-70 revolver too. Can't stand it in my 30-30 either.
I just don't know.

161
05-01-2014, 02:07 PM
103734
Here are two that I set deeper in the crimp. I also found another set of 44 dies these are RCBS. If I take a fired case the I.D. is .431 after a trip through the Lee die it is .429, the Lyman .425 and lastly the RCBC takes it down to .423. I'm finding there is a difference in dies. And there is a difference in I.D. depending on the brand.

Iowa Fox
05-01-2014, 06:39 PM
Good thread guys, lots of info for the 44 mag. 44man when you were shooting to 200 M what bullet or bullet shape were you using? Skip Otto made a few collar dies and collars for me but unfortunately he passed before I got them for the 44. They work very well.

RobS
05-01-2014, 07:08 PM
103734
Here are two that I set deeper in the crimp. I also found another set of 44 dies these are RCBS. If I take a fired case the I.D. is .431 after a trip through the Lee die it is .429, the Lyman .425 and lastly the RCBC takes it down to .423. I'm finding there is a difference in dies. And there is a difference in I.D. depending on the brand.

Now that's much better with the boolit seat at the right spot on the crimp groove and the crimp looks really well done too. Also something to consider here with the dies is the brass itself. There can be different spring back for different brands of brass, the number of times the brass has been shot and so on and so forth. I would try to set up a close comparison of brass i.e. brand new brass, once fired, twice fired etc. and of course the same brand. Maybe you already did this but I would also get a larger sample from each sizing die.

Indybear
05-01-2014, 07:25 PM
I have an old set of Lee 44M dies, size the 310 GCs to .4305, Redding crimp die, once fired Starline and a heavy load of 110 and they show no signs of jumping in my SRH even after multiple firings.

44man
05-02-2014, 08:24 AM
Good thread guys, lots of info for the 44 mag. 44man when you were shooting to 200 M what bullet or bullet shape were you using? Skip Otto made a few collar dies and collars for me but unfortunately he passed before I got them for the 44. They work very well.
I mostly used the Hornady 240 sil bullet and the 240 XTP is even more accurate. I went 100% to cast and use a WLN or WFN. I used 23.5 gr of 296 with the sil bullet and 24 with the XTP, all with a Fed 150 primer. The 300 XTP likes 20.5 gr. I use 21.5 with the Lee 310, 320 LBT and 21 with my 330 gr. The 265 RD likes 22 gr.
The WLN and WFN will shoot far, once with my 45-70 BFR, shooting Creedmore at my half size buffalo, Ultra dot, I aimed at a tree branch around 26' high and had a 2-1/2" group at 500 yards.
The boolit I showed in my .475 hit a 6" steel swinger 4 out of 5 times at 400 yards, first shot a sighter. I had to set the bottom of my dot on top of the 500 meter berm.
Do not fear a large meplat.

44man
05-02-2014, 08:44 AM
103811
Now that's much better with the boolit seat at the right spot on the crimp groove and the crimp looks really well done too. Also something to consider here with the dies is the brass itself. There can be different spring back for different brands of brass, the number of times the brass has been shot and so on and so forth. I would try to set up a close comparison of brass i.e. brand new brass, once fired, twice fired etc. and of course the same brand. Maybe you already did this but I would also get a larger sample from each sizing die.
Brass is the enemy and new is very bad, brand does not matter. The amount of tension is not real important as long as there is enough for burn. What counts is that every case has as close to the same tension. If you feel different seating pressures, you will get no groups.
My best group at 200 was using brass shot over 40X. I am still using brass from the 80's.
The picture is a test of 50 new cases at 50 yards. You can see the variation of tension affects. If brass is sorted by POI, they will shoot the smallest groups. Same thing BR shooters do. I feel once brass reaches maximum work hardening, it will be more accurate in the revolver. It is not being cheap like me, so don't just toss brass unless you get a crack. Your gun and wallet will thank me! :mrgreen:

44man
05-02-2014, 08:46 AM
Might have a duplicate post, got a data base error.

44man
05-02-2014, 09:00 AM
I can measure boolit seating pressure but once brass gets fired enough, I don't bother. Most will be very close. It is hard with the press handle alone but if the handle weight alone will push a boolit in, set that one aside, it can be 10" out of a group.
Even if looser, sort and each pile will still group. They just change POI so the groups will wander all over the paper. Don't mix loose with tight.
Revolver accuracy really is the brass.

RobS
05-02-2014, 09:28 AM
103811
Brass is the enemy and new is very bad, brand does not matter. The amount of tension is not real important as long as there is enough for burn. What counts is that every case has as close to the same tension. If you feel different seating pressures, you will get no groups.
My best group at 200 was using brass shot over 40X. I am still using brass from the 80's.
The picture is a test of 50 new cases at 50 yards. You can see the variation of tension affects. If brass is sorted by POI, they will shoot the smallest groups. Same thing BR shooters do. I feel once brass reaches maximum work hardening, it will be more accurate in the revolver. It is not being cheap like me, so don't just toss brass unless you get a crack. Your gun and wallet will thank me! :mrgreen:

I get what you are saying about brass and tension depends on those variables. I was pointing out as the original poster tries to figure out which die sizes smaller it could very well be the brass itself giving some variance.

44man
05-02-2014, 10:00 AM
I get what you are saying about brass and tension depends on those variables. I was pointing out as the original poster tries to figure out which die sizes smaller it could very well be the brass itself giving some variance.
Very true and is the biggest problem. But it can't be traced to the brand of brass. Revolvers are different when sizing and expanding. Rifle dies should not over size and then force an expander out that bends necks. The revolver needs sized enough and then only expanded enough.
Guys are showing how some dies differ when sizing yet the expander is a real problem too. Until we get a digital readout of seating pressures, we are at the mercy of the brass God.
I always sent rifle dies back to get lapped for minimum sizing, Weatherby brass the worst with the round shoulders that bend fast. We have a different expander for the revolver, not drawn out of brass so we have more control. Just need to make use of what we have.

DougGuy
05-02-2014, 10:29 AM
I must have did good then, bought a bunch of mixed headstamp .44 brass from a guy, there are a cpl hundred PMC and maybe 100ea. WW not known how many firings but for sure well more than once fired.

With my .308 I group by seating tension when I load them. All the loose ones go to one side, tight ones the other, I take the ones in the middle with the most even feel and finish those. The ones with the collet marks near the end of the case, set them out, farther down on the case, set them out, keep the ones that look just right. Out of 100rds, now I am down to less than 25 usually, that feel and look really consistent. Those, I load in the chamber and close the bolt. Loose and easy, set to one side, hard to close, set out to the other side, ones that feel even and just right, I hunt with those. Maybe now I have 15rds out of that 100 that I started with, that I can hit an eyeball at 200yds first shot cold barrel every time. These are the loads that will put 3 into a guitar pick @200.

Never really thought to do it with pistol brass but I guess it might be even more crucial in a pistol than a rifle because of how much POI is affected by muzzle rise and how simple variables like neck tension affect pressure which affects muzzle rise.

In lieu of a digital measurement, I bet a guy could take a bell out of an expander die and size it down so that it didn't really expand the brass after sizing, but had enough interference to "feel" case tension and stick it in a single stage press so you can run your brass through it and find the loose vs. tight ones.

Very interesting Jim, thank you for that.

40-82
05-02-2014, 10:41 AM
44man,

I'm having the same problem with my RCBS 250 grain cast bullet in the Keith pattern slightly slipping past the crimp on the sixth round. The guns I use are an old Ruger Blackhawk and and a Smith & Wesson 629-1 with a four inch barrel. I've tried heat treating the bullets and that helps but doesn't eliminate the problem entirely. Using different powders has not made much difference either. I've tried both RCBS and Redding dies and experimented with a Lee crimping die. None of these variables solve the problem.

If I stay with older brass as you suggested above and go to the Hornady dies will that likely solve the problem?

40-82

44man
05-02-2014, 02:43 PM
44man,

I'm having the same problem with my RCBS 250 grain cast bullet in the Keith pattern slightly slipping past the crimp on the sixth round. The guns I use are an old Ruger Blackhawk and and a Smith & Wesson 629-1 with a four inch barrel. I've tried heat treating the bullets and that helps but doesn't eliminate the problem entirely. Using different powders has not made much difference either. I've tried both RCBS and Redding dies and experimented with a Lee crimping die. None of these variables solve the problem.

If I stay with older brass as you suggested above and go to the Hornady dies will that likely solve the problem?

40-82
It might, Hornady dies have proven very good so far. Yet that does not solve the brass itself.

161
05-02-2014, 05:39 PM
Another interesting thing I learned today. Brass sized in the Lyman die and trimmed. When you run it through the RCBS die that is tighter than the Lyman. The brass will grow .001 in length.

40-82
05-02-2014, 06:07 PM
Thanks 44man,

I'm ordering the Hornady dies now.

40-82

RobS
05-03-2014, 12:59 AM
Another interesting thing I learned today. Brass sized in the Lyman die and trimmed. When you run it through the RCBS die that is tighter than the Lyman. The brass will grow .001 in length.

Correct, the brass flow or movement has to go somewhere and the other end is closed off.

44man
05-03-2014, 08:55 AM
Correct, the brass flow or movement has to go somewhere and the other end is closed off.
Yes, revolver brass actually shortens when fired as it expands to fill the chamber, then sizing will make it longer again. A good thing is that brass does not flow forward much, not like my 30-30 brass from the Marlin, need to trim every time.
Run out with revolver brass is also very low. The Weatherby drove me nuts until I had the dies lapped for minimum sizing, Redding used to do it free but will charge now. Collar dies solved the problem but back then, they didn't have them yet. I was able to shoot 1/2" groups all day once I got the dies fixed. Not bad from a .300 W. Those round shoulders bend easy when pulling the expander out. Neck turning rifle brass until just even is a good thing too.
However, just making tension more with the revolver, over only what you need, is not the final answer but it does seem to help. As long as boolits stay put under recoil, no more is needed. The hard part is to make them all the same.
Shooting dead soft lead and expanding more does not work for me at all. The boolit must resist the brass. Soft lead causes more problems that can't be solved. I water drop WW lead but for better accuracy I add more antimony and tin.
Some of my guns like the 45-70 and .500 JRH, BFR's need a softer nose for deer, They are paper punches on the deer. I refuse to soften the drive bands though. The .44 and .475 works with hard. I think Thor designed the .475!
You can see that the brass itself is even a problem with a rifle too and is why BR shooters use the same 5 cases over and over, loading right at the bench. Brass was sorted by where the shots went.
It works with a revolver, get a flier and put that case aside.

gray wolf
05-03-2014, 10:59 AM
Thank you all for the great information, sometimes these threads kick into high gear and the knowledge just flows. It has helped me to understand some things that were a little fuzzy.


GW

161
05-05-2014, 09:22 PM
Did a little shooting today, everything stayed where it was suppose too. Drilled and taped for the Weigland mount. But a cheap 2.5 X pistol scope because I had it sitting around. Groups are smaller but need to do some more work tomorrow.

44man
05-06-2014, 09:45 AM
Heavy guns and those with added scope weight have less problems with boolit pull too. Some little guns come back so fast it is crazy. That boolit wants to stay were it is. The reason a S&W does not like heavy boolits, parts in the guns have too much inertia and get unlocked or battered.
My worst recoil from the bench are from the BFR's, .475 and JRH, they twist my wrist but boolits still hold. Torque is real bad with some guns too. I have had guns twist under the Ultra Dots with good rings. A tighter hold helps, so don't wimp your revolver. Hold tight, just short of the shakes. Never let the gun free recoil.
Even a .22 or ACP needs the same hold.

161
05-06-2014, 05:12 PM
[ATTACH=CONFIG]104200[/ATTACH
This is a 12 shot group @50 yards off the pickup hood with sand bags. Not great but at least the it sort of round. The wind was howling today tried to shoot between gusts. 310 LEE 16.5 gr. #9 and a Remington standard primer. FPS is 1209. Shot some XTP 240 and the group was slightly larger.

161
05-06-2014, 11:31 PM
Getting tired of trimming cases.
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=8ZmELX72A0k

44man
05-07-2014, 07:49 AM
161, that is fine shooting. Thump a deer with that and it won't go 20 yards.

161
05-07-2014, 09:22 AM
It's a lot better than it was. Thanks for the help everybody. I am amazed at the poor quality of the PMC brass. I haven't found a single case that has the flash hole centered. Where would a guy send a SBH to have some fine tuning done to the trigger?

RobS
05-07-2014, 10:20 AM
It's a lot better than it was. Thanks for the help everybody. I am amazed at the poor quality of the PMC brass. I haven't found a single case that has the flash hole centered. Where would a guy send a SBH to have some fine tuning done to the trigger?


Good shooting! I've never had any PMC brass but it sounds like something I'll pass on should I ever see some.

A little creep in the trigger?

161
05-07-2014, 10:23 AM
A little creep in the trigger?
There was a lot. I got the pull down to a consistent 2.5 lbs but still a little creep.

44man
05-07-2014, 01:29 PM
It's a lot better than it was. Thanks for the help everybody. I am amazed at the poor quality of the PMC brass. I haven't found a single case that has the flash hole centered. Where would a guy send a SBH to have some fine tuning done to the trigger?
Very easy to do yourself. Stone just enough from the hammer to get rid of creep. Do not go near the angles, just the outside and just break the corner with a slip of a fine stone. Then bend the trigger spring to decrease pressure but the poor mans job of unhooking one end really does work. Nothing at all needs done to the trigger itself. Sometimes just the poor mans job is enough.
You can find how to do the trigger spring with a search. No need to replace it at all.
I make my triggers so light that I had to make new transfer bars, longer so they do not drop off the firing pin. I get less then 1-1/2# triggers but stay away from any trigger that kicks your finger ahead unless you know how. You don't want to be able to push the hammer with your thumb and have it drop but my SBH has, But I don't push my hammer after cocking it and after over 76,000 heavy loads, I never found a need to push my hammer. I use the trigger to shoot!
My BFR's have triggers to die for. My 45-70 is 19 oz but took a homemade transfer bar.

DougGuy
05-07-2014, 11:23 PM
Where would a guy send a SBH to have some fine tuning done to the trigger?

You can do the SBH trigger yourself, it's a piece of cake. A lot of people do what is called the "PMTJ" or Poor Man's Trigger Job, which involves taking the grip panel off one side, and pulling the leg of the trigger return spring over the retainer pin and letting it hang loose, then put the grip back on and try it. You can also get a "Shooter's Kit" from Brownell's that is an assortment of Wolff springs, but the easiest thing is to just get one of the 30oz trigger return springs and install it. You can also do the "Ultra PMTJ" on that one too, and leave one leg off. That's how I do mine, my SBH has the factory main spring and a lightened trigger return spring with one leg off, my Vaquero has a lightened main spring AND a lightened trigger return spring, again with one leg left off.

With this setup, I have found the creep to be smooth and very liveable, on the Vaquero, it almost acts like a double set trigger, it takes up the slack and stops, the next little bit of force you put on the trigger, it breaks nice and clean. I prefer to leave the hammer and sear engagement as shipped from Ruger. Bottom line, dry fire the gun at a target, take a mental "snapshot" of what the front sight did when the hammer clicked. Lighten up the trigger spring first, dry fire it some more. Is it easier to hold the front sight perfectly in alignment with the rear throughout the hammer fall? If so, stop there and just shoot it, come to learn the feel of the trigger and when it is going to break. If you cannot yet hold that front sight in alignment, try a lightened main spring along with the lightened trigger return spring.

Also, try pushing to one side or the other with the pad of your trigger finger when you fire, this will help take the error out of your finger pressing and follow through. That part usually throws off windage if you don't train it out of your hand. Most right handed shooters will shoot low and left, because when the shot breaks, the overtravel and pressure from their trigger finger jerks the gun to the left and down. Practice curling your finger tip back to the right a little, or vice versa if you are shooting to the right. Try with more meat of your finger slid through the trigger guard and pull the trigger with a different part of the pad of the finger. Your eyes and the sight picture when the hammer falls will tell you which way to pull it.

When you can dry fire the gun and keep the sight picture motionless, you have come to grips with shooting a single action revolver. Just remember your grip, and your index finger movement you used in dry fire, and train to do the same in live fire, you will be a LOT more accurate and consistent now.

44man
05-08-2014, 10:21 AM
Super good info about trigger pull. But never reduce the hammer spring. I put Wolff over power variable 26# springs in a new Ruger or BFR before I ever shoot it. I always have some here. Ruger factory springs will set and reduce primer impacts. No it is not hammer speed, it is primer impact for top accuracy. When you need to use a softer primer you are well past what the gun will do.
Ruger springs are 23# but will weaken. I changed mine every year when I shot IHMSA because accuracy would go south. I am called a crazy old coot but yes I can tell the primer you use or what the hammer spring is doing. Your best friend is a pile of good springs.

161
05-08-2014, 10:51 AM
I did the poor mans trigger job. Then put a Wolf reduced power return spring in. I stoned the hammer myself and got most of the creep out just not sure enough of my self to go any more. I'll tear into it again maybe today when it starts raining. I made a video yesterday of different loads hitting steel at 75 yards. The 310 really makes things jump when it hits. I missed a 4 or 6 inch plate once out of 12 shots. Shot over it once I need to lower POI. I'll post the video if anybody is interested its 16 minutes long and shows a short fat guy painting the target between groups.

1bluehorse
05-09-2014, 01:42 PM
I found this a most interesting thread....I've not had any problems with bullets "jumping crimp" but I don't load anything over 265gr in my 44 mags....my "standard" load with these for hunting is 20gr. A2400....but I shoot a lot of lighter loads also (9 gr. Unique, 10gr. Herco for instance)..however all this info got me to checking on some new Hornady Cowboy dies I purchased for loading cast bullets (which is all I shoot in my 44's and 45's..) vs some standard Hornady and RCBS dies....all three resize dies sized the ID (measured with minus pin gauges) to .422 (I'm a bit surprised all three were the same)...different story for the expanders....Hornady "Cowboy die" after expanding ID measured .427.....regular Hornady was .425 and the RCBS was .424 but had more "flare" at the mouth than the Hornadys, which made the insertion of my .4315 bullets a bit easier to start....the RCBS was also a smoother expander....I have no idea if any of this really matters a whit or not...but it may make someone feel better about the process...I should add that after seating a .4315 bullet (micrometer) into a case prepped with the "Cowboy dies" and crimped, upon removal (impact hammer) still measured .4315.....did not check the others but my SWAG say's the same result probably....uhhh, air cooled wheel weights....

BloodGroove4570
05-09-2014, 06:24 PM
Great thread/post folks. I'm gathering a bunch of good info here to keep in mind....

[smilie=s:
44Man,
I Really Enjoy reading your posts, it always amazes me the knowledge you have on the 44 mag (other cal's too) and feel grateful to be learning it! The 44 mag is my Favorite caliber to shoot and load for and I'm always trying to learn as much as possible about it and loading for it..
I'm relatively new to handloading (6~8 months) and I try hard to get better every time I load a new batch.
I hope someday to maybe capitalize on ALL the Great info here and that would be a fun and Accurate day for sure... :guntootsmiley:

Thank you for all the great information you and Everyone else shares on this Forum!!! :-)

I know I surely appreciate it and enjoy reading it!

BloodGroove4570

44man
05-12-2014, 04:08 PM
Great thread/post folks. I'm gathering a bunch of good info here to keep in mind....

[smilie=s:
44Man,
I Really Enjoy reading your posts, it always amazes me the knowledge you have on the 44 mag (other cal's too) and feel grateful to be learning it! The 44 mag is my Favorite caliber to shoot and load for and I'm always trying to learn as much as possible about it and loading for it..
I'm relatively new to handloading (6~8 months) and I try hard to get better every time I load a new batch.
I hope someday to maybe capitalize on ALL the Great info here and that would be a fun and Accurate day for sure... :guntootsmiley:

Thank you for all the great information you and Everyone else shares on this Forum!!! :-)

I know I surely appreciate it and enjoy reading it!

BloodGroove4570
No other site has so much info. so many great members with true experience. The one thing here is to help and pass on those things learned without a copy from somewhere.
It is like teaching a kid to load or shoot, "do this and not that". Then when the kid puts you to shame, do you feel bad or are you proud? The pride of helping each other is what we live for. Cast is a new world but they will beat the J words. I should say "old world" but you know what I mean.

161
05-12-2014, 08:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8wvuV9SjEA
I got the two videos down to 10 minutes. I had a little trouble with everything other than the 310. Gun isn't fine tuned for zero. I had to use about a 4:30 hold on the round plate with the 310. But I was very happy with the way they grouped @75 yards. The XTPs and the lighter loads shot about a foot high and different amounts to the right so I was by guess and by golly lobbing them in. The 310s really shake things up when they hit. Enjoy

Iowa Fox
05-13-2014, 12:07 AM
Very nice job on the video.

44man
05-13-2014, 10:18 AM
Wonderful! Don't you just love the .310? Take it up a step with 21.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150. Try again but I have a hard time with what you did. So many hits in the same place. I love it.
Now look at the semi wad cutter, no guidance at the cone. Try a harder boolt and Felix lube and see what they do.
I was surprised how the light XTP did.
It is so good to show what a .44 can do. Those 310's hit with a lot of punch.
I usually use my 330 for deer but ran out two seasons ago and just picked loads from my box. Put the last 5 in, shot 3 deer and had 2 rounds left. That was when I seen I had the Lee 310's instead of my boolits. Hit the same and deer went in the freezer.
161 earned a "top shot" place here. Great shooting my friend. I hope to see more of your videos.

DougGuy
05-13-2014, 10:43 AM
The 310 is the only boolit I shoot in my .44 now, and it's bigger brother the 300 is all I shoot in the .45 Colt. Felix lube all the way!

161
05-13-2014, 09:19 PM
Found a can of 296 today, no Federal primers. I'll try the Remington 2 1/2 and give a report.
Thanks for the help
Warren

44man
05-14-2014, 09:42 AM
Yes, the CCI 300 and the Rem 2-1/2 all work fine. I see no difference with them. Good primers.

161
05-18-2014, 03:47 PM
105302
This one is upside down. But it's 21.5 gr. of 296, Remington brass and a Rem 2 1/2 primer 310 Lee. 1370 FPS 15 feet from the muzzle. Shot at 50 yards over the hood of my pickup. I have dents in the hood now.

105301
This is 17.5 Accurate #9 Rem cases and primer 310 Lee at 1360 FPS. Boolit was water dropped and sized .430.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W4hVQs2oB8

This is another video, I didn't edit it so there is some down time. The first 5 shots are 16.5 #9. The same load I shot the other day. First shot is at about 1:28 it just nicked the left edge. The next 4 are 296 and they put three on top of each other @ 75 yards. I'm going to replace it but I'm wondering how long the $40.00 NcStar 2.5X scope will hold up.
Enjoy

161
05-18-2014, 05:34 PM
Forgot to take the privacy lock off. Should work now.

44man
05-19-2014, 07:08 AM
I can't open the attachments.
What is your impression of standard primers?

161
05-19-2014, 08:29 AM
105370
Picture is upside down. 21.5 296
105371
17.5 #9 both 6 shot groups
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W4hVQs2oB8
First 5 are #9 last 4 are 296.
I guess the standard primers are fine. I have a couple thousand CCI mag. primers but see now reason to change. Unless you think sub zero weather during deer season would make a difference.

161
05-20-2014, 10:02 AM
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