Jacketed boolet remove leading ??

[bandmiller2]

After a bout shooting lead that leaves minor leading will fireing a couple of jacketed slugs remove most of the lead or am I just digging a deeper hole.?? Frank C. referring to 35 rem.

[Shiloh]

If it is minor leading, a brush is your best choice. That's how I remove it. Running jacketed bullets over it may just iron it in more.

SHiloh

[Rick Hodges]

I have done it with badly fouled barrels in a S&W 686. It does get rid of a lot of fouling. I'm not sure if it is a "proper" thing to do.

[DougGuy]

Would you fire a boolit into a known obstructed bore? Of course not. Leading in a barrel is an obstruction of sorts. Firing a j word will not "scrape" the leading out of the bore cleanly, it may strip a good amount out of it but what it doesn't strip out gets pressed into the wall of the bore and if it's bad enough, you can get a bulged barrel out of the deal fairly easy. Best way is to use a bronze brush with a few strands of Chore Boy wrapped around it to de-lead the bore.

I mean you gotta figure, if you have a .429" bore, and there is .002" of lead on the sides of it, now it's .425" and you fire a .430" boolit into it at greater than the speed of sound, it has to go somewhere, there's no guarantee it goes in front of the boolit, and as the boolit travels into the lead deposits, it will become swaged smaller to some degree, and as .429" worth of boolit and .004" worth of lead fouling try and occupy the same .430" inch of space at the same time, it can only be forced in an outward direction. Only a matter of time before it begins to swell the barrel.

[RedHawk357Mag]

At the cost of guns today...I would remove the lead with brush wrapped in COPPER strands of Chore boy scrubbies or BRONZE wool. Even with heaviest of leading is removed in less than a minute minus the time it takes to assemble a rod from your kit bag.

[upnorthwis]

I've always thought that someone should make a knurled J-word bullet specifically for removing lead. Then the lead would have a place to be displaced too.

[gefiltephish]

A gc'd bullet seems to do a pretty good job of "scraping" out lead. I usually fire two of 'em at the end of a session. If there's any lead at all left behind, a quick swipe with a choreboy'd brush cleans it right out. Actually, the bores of my 686's never lead, just the forcing cone area. Curious if anyone has ever proven the "ironing in" theory? I mean factually, not anecdotal evidence.

[44man]

Good thoughts and the final answer is "don't do it."

[Recluse]

I work to avoid leading in the first place so that I don't have to debate the issue of whether or not running a jacketed round afterwards is necessary.

:coffee:

[DougGuy]

Curious if anyone has ever proven the "ironing in" theory? I mean factually, not anecdotal evidence.

There's a very well known and quite well regarded retired gunsmith on rugerforum.net, very wisened and experienced individual, he likely cannot tell you how many bulged barrels he has replaced, but if you hunt him down, he will tell you how doing things like this keeps guys like him in business. Not from hearsay but from first hand been there done that.

As was mentioned earlier, this particular forum is well equipped to help you develop loads that don't lead the bore. I for one when I started with the Rugers in .45 Colt, was just well, not really stupid, but inexperienced, and I sought out the hardest alloys I could find, specified linotype in the mix, and I pushed them as hard as H110 and W296 would push them. I got leading, and I HATED it. I almost destroyed a Lewis Lead Remover from forcefully cramming it in and out of the barrel. It was BAD let me tell you..

Now, many years later, I have not used that LLR in so long, the first thing I learned to do, was "dimensionally correct" the gun itself, so that I wasn't downsizing my boolits. The boolits are .001" over bore diameter, sized to .452" the cylinder throats are .4525" +/-.0002" and the barrel had the world's worst thread constriction, it was down around .4485" or so, really badly torqued on by the factory to clock the front sight so it shot to point of aim on the windage, so I Taylor throated it. No way in hades could you firelap this much metal out of it without destroying the good part of the barrel.

Now, that said, the mathematical dimensions of the gun from case mouth to muzzle decrease gradually, like they are supposed to. Each part of the gun gets a little smaller as the boolit leaves the case, until it leaves the muzzle. THIS, is as it should be. In a perfect world anyhow. I'm not advocating everybody ought to Taylor throat their beloved SA, but if you want it to shoot good, group good, and not lead the barrel, you have to make sure that it is indeed "dimensionally corrected" and you can achieve just that.

The rest of the story, is (IMO anyway,) choosing a boolit design AND size that the gun shoots well, that you like, that is accurate AT the DISTANCE you want to shoot it at, and then choosing the hardness of the alloy. The hardest alloy you can find, BHN 22-24 may not be the friendliest in your bore! Your gun MAY have the least amount of leading and a surprising amount of accuracy with a little softer alloy, 50/50 ww/pure lead and maybe 2% tin added in there vs. water dropped ww or Lyman #2. For example. You have to try it. I guarantee you for every variation in hardness and alloy content, we could find a barrel within our midst right here on this forum that would like it all day, and by the same token, we could find one that would absolutely lay down and refuse to shoot it for love or money.

As a parting shot, pun intended, the lube you use, as miniscule a detail as it might seem, can make a huge difference in not only how clean the bore stays, but in group size as well. The blue magma lube is too hard, you can shoot magnum velocities and dig the boolit out of the berm and there, still in the lube groove(s) is nearly 100% of the hard lube. I got away from the hard lube the first time I tried Felix lube, and it was a comment from 44man that got me curious enough to try it, sheesh. Night and day difference in the bore, and yep it shrunk groups to boot!

[telebasher]

Paco Kelley says he fires jacketed bullet loaded backwards @ 900 fps to clean out stubborn fouling. I got curious and tried it and it does a pretty good job but most of my loads are developed for little to no leading among other criteria, so mine might not be a valid test . YMMV.

[dudel]

I'm curious. What part of jacketed projectile is going to scrape/push lead from the barrel?

[gpb]

For what it's worth. On page 94 of "Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook" Third Edition in a section called "A Clean Barrel is an Accurate Barrel" it is stated:

"Perhaps the easiest remedy for both handgunners and riflemen is to fire several rounds of jacketed ammunition. This removes the leading very effectively, leaving only the jacket fouling to be removed before the barrel is ready for alloy bullets again."

I've never done this, so I can't comment on it's effectiveness. However, Lyman appears to recommend it, at least in the Third Edition. Since I don't have the Fourth Edition, I don't know if it's still recommended. Perhaps someone with the Fourth Edition can check.

[bandmiller2]

Wow that came hard and fast of course I wouldn't try to shoot out heavy lead deposits. Probibly should have asked if its practical to shoot both at a range session. I mounted a new scope and would like to get it close with cast then tweek it at 100yds with jacket. Are cast and jacket really poison to each other.?? Yea I go both ways (with boolets anyways) Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

GPB, your right I just looked in the Lyman third edition and its just as you stated. Wile we're on the subject I usally don't wipe a light oil film before I shoot. Frank C.

[44man]

Many things happen that we will never understand. I have the BFR 45-70 revolver and use 4759 with all bullets/boolits but the threat of losing the powder production has had me trying other powders. It has not worked yet. I tried 5744 last time and I had a leaded barrel, pretty bad and I have shot the same boolit with 4759 many times with no problems.
Somewhere I had a post about some powders failing in certain calibers while working in others. Like the 4227's in the .44, big failures. Great heat sensitivity in the caliber.
Right now I blame 5744 for the leading but I don't know why.
But you CAN distort a barrel shooting jacketed over leading.
Maybe the best I have read is to shoot a soft boolit real slow through the barrel, never tried it but it makes more sense then copper over leading.
By the way, the GC will NOT clean a bore either. Neither will scraper grooves on a boolit.
Your best friend is your cleaning rod.
Back to powders, when you shoot the small stuff like a nine, etc, you are trapped with powder choices so will one powder lead more then another? Wish I knew for sure. All I can say is that 5744 set me back 100 years with my BFR. Usually I go two to three years between cleaning the bore.

[Bigslug]

Wow that came hard and fast of course I wouldn't try to shoot out heavy lead deposits. Probibly should have asked if its practical to shoot both at a range session. I mounted a new scope and would like to get it close with cast then tweek it at 100yds with jacket. Are cast and jacket really poison to each other.?? Yea I go both ways (with boolets anyways) Frank C.

For the short term, solve your leading problem with elbow grease - take your cleaning gear with you to the range, scrub out the crud, then shoot your jacketed stuff. If you're hunting with jacketed, you'll want to develop your data from a clean bore anyway.

For the long term, hang out here, learn, and fix your load so that leading isn't an issue. Then, you can run a bore snake and be pretty much done. In your shoes, I personally would get out of jacketed entirely and find a heavy, gas-check mold with a nose profile you like. The "normal" performance envelope of the .35 Remington is right at the point where gas checks are largely considered necessary to keep leading under control, and they will probably help your accuracy anyway.

[35remington]

Perhaps a little more thought needs to go into the barrel damage thing. Relate why shooting lead bullets in a leaded barrel does not damage anything, and recall that jacketed bullets have lead cores. Their compressive strength is much lower than steel.

From having done it color me a skeptic of the bulged barrel supposition, and nameless unreachable gunsmiths don't convince me.

[bandmiller2]

Bigslug, I'am going to concentrate on lead with the old 1951 Marlin 35 rem. Fired both today sighting in a new scope. Pulled the bolt and ran a dry patch then solvent no leading or copper fouling. Guess that old cut rifled barrel is smooth. I have the RCBS 200gr FN, as cast .3585 also may try some 158gr pistol boolets. You know if this was easy it wouldn't be interesting. Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

35rem. I hear what your saying the shooting sports and especially cast shooting is rife with old wives tales and unwritten laws. After we hear something repeated for years its often taken for gospel. I've cast and shot lead for years and never had more than a few streaks or flakes left in the barrel, certainly nothing even close to an obstruction. Hope you have a good supply of 35 rem. brass you just know the manufacturers will pump out the popular brass first and we'll be sucking hind teat. Frank C.

[Harry O]

I shot some very soft 44-40 bullets in an oversized Marlin microgroove carbine barrel once (bullets a swaged 0.427" and the barrel groove diameter 0.430", probably from a .44 Magnum -- I found this out after shooting). The worst leading I have ever seen. The first few inches of the barrel looked like a smoothbore. I shot some jacketed 44-40 bullets down the barrel. It ironed out some of the leading and spread it forward. If it had been a handgun (with a short barrel) some of it might have been removed. However, the stuff that remained was very, very hard to get out. More so than regular leading is. I think it was ironed down into the grooves. Shooting jacketed bullets down a leaded bore is something I will NEVER do again.

In any case, I have since found out that if I get any leading, shooting gas check bullets through the barrel will remove most, if not all, the leading. It seems to cut it away instead of ironing it down.

[62chevy]

Seen a lot of pros and cons on the shooting jacketed in a lead foaled barrel and the only thing I know in my limited experience is shooting jacketed bullets when the barrel had lead fouling cleaned about 98% out. Groves were packed but after shooting the jacketed the groves were visible again with just minor leading. A brass brush took the rest out of the barrel.

[mpmarty]

Since I don't foul my barrels with lead I won't be experimenting with this notion.

[35remington]

Contrast that with this. My first experience shooting lead bullets was with a discontinued Lee mould producing a 190 grain SWC that I didn't lube at all. Fifty rounds of this plated the barrel so solidly no rifling was visible. I thereupon proceeded to shoot ball through it. Long slivers of lead protruded through the barrel, and I kept whanging away. Soon no lead remained. If any even minute amount of bulging occurred the long belled Bar Sto 45 ACP barrel would have shown it as the bushing was very tightly fitted, and the bell extended quite a ways from the muzzle as it originally had a collet bushing. We had fitted a solid bushing to it with very small clearances, and any bulging would have locked the bushing up tight. No such bad thing happened.

The problem with Harry O's barrel is the jacketed bullets were not reaching the bottom of the oversized grooves.....and of course the lead in the grooves was not getting cleaned out. No jacketed 44-40 bullet has ever come anywhere close to the .430" groove diameter of his barrel. If the bullets had been .430" diameter the lead would have come out.

I don't view the idea of shooting a barrel so heavily plated with lead that no rifling is visible with high pressure rifle type loads as a good idea and would campaign against that. But minor streaks of lead? Bang away all you want. I've done just that many times with jacketed bullets. Keep in mind the rifling displaces jacketed material with no trauma to the barrel, and the elastic nature of steel and its higher strength see to it that such an event has no resemblance whatsoever to a barrel obstruction. Barrel steels deflect slightly and return to their original state all the time under rifle type pressures, and this in fact is how strain gauge measuring systems like the Oehler work.

Even given that, it is far more likely that the much more yielding and softer bullet has opportunity to deform longitudinally when material is displaced. If this were not so oversized bullets could not swaged down in barrels smaller than their diameter when transitioning from throat to rifling. The displaced material does indeed have somewhere to go. In leaded barrels, too.

Keep in mind the OP asked about streaks of leading, not a plated barrel.

Hatcher in his Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers noted some "Silvadry" .22 ammo leaded the barrel so heavily the bullets were elongated and swaged down in the passage through the barrel. The gun was unharmed after a cleaning.

[TXGunNut]

Bore leading? That's the tiny specks that I might see when before I get the powder and lube fouling out. Non-issue but if it occurs I'll brush it out. Bulged barrels are no fun.

[GP100man]

I experiment & lead the snot out of my barrels some times & this is what I use to delead the barrel .

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/choreboyscrubber.jpg (http://s746.photobucket.com/user/GP100man/media/choreboyscrubber.jpg.html)
Shooting condomened bullets down a leaded barrel just leaves a hardened layer of lead that`s a b***h to remove.!!

I have revolvers that have never seen a jacketed bullet since the factory !!

GP

Clean the barrel ,clean it again wiith a good solvent for copper then smooth it up with a good cleanin with FLITZ untill it feels smooth enuff to not grab a patch on a jag.

[35remington]

Just stating for the record I've shot jacketed over minor leading many times and never bulged anything, for the very understandable reasons mentioned above.

And the undersized nature of jacketed bullets in many barrels explains why some leading remains in some instances.