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NVScouter
04-18-2014, 01:27 PM
Here is an exerpt from an article I just read:

"The .45 Caliber Big Game Muzzleloader -

Can't, Won't, Can Do's and a Surprise or Two

By Randy D. Smith

If you're interested in hunting with muzzleloading rifles you have, no doubt, read the ads espousing the extreme performance capabilities of the high velocity, .45 caliber in-line. Some of the claims are pretty impressive and can be quite alluring.

Projectile velocities of over 2,300 feet per second from 26" and 28" stainless steel fluted barrels driven by massive powder charges and ignited perfectly by hot 209 ignition systems quicken our heart rates and stir our imaginations to visualize those two hundred yard shots that strike down elusive trophy bucks. Our palms sweat as we fill out the order for this 21st Century space age marvel that will totally counteract the handicaps placed upon us by black powder propellants and ramrods.

Finally, we can take advantage of primitive firearms hunting seasons with a rifle that will rival many fine smokeless powder models. "This truely makes me sick.

I wish people could see the forest through the trees while hunting. Why look at it like a compitition? Just enjoy the hunt, get the time by yourself/friends/family.

General season if open to anything I'm fine with any legal arm. Use a super duper rifle or scoped crossbow sited to 150 yards. But these special primitive seasons were created for people that want the extra fair chase challenge. Dont try and ruin it with Hi-Tech garbage, it improves your kill rate (not hunt) and screws the guy doing it right. Dont play the barely legal game and skirt the season's reason for being created.

Am I off base?

richhodg66
04-18-2014, 01:34 PM
No you're not.

I love the Kansas muzzle loader season in September and for years, they made scopes illegal, I liked it that way. They have been wittling away that season for a while now and soon I doubt it'll exist. Scopes are now legal, the archery season runs concurrent with it and there is a youth season for a week before it now just in the past few years.

I like inlines too, and have used a relatively crude one to take a few deer, but I like my old Hawken.

BTW, when I bow hunted, I used long bows and recurves, I feel pretty much the same way. High tech is fine, but in a season that is meant for high tech.

Smoke4320
04-18-2014, 01:48 PM
I have mixed feeling on this .. liked my old 45 cal TC hawken #11 cap days but don't miss the cap not firing the load occasionally ..
don't really like the 150 grain loads or the smokeless powder Muzzleloaders.. just seem to get by just fine on 88 Grs FFG and 209 primer even switching back to 20-1 lead for projectiles
so mixed feeling I have

quilbilly
04-18-2014, 01:50 PM
I absolutely agree but it is human nature. When I was a bowhunter, I felt the same way about bows with training wheels. Now I wish all the ML seasons were patched round ball seasons but I am old enough with eyes aged accordingly to wish scopes were allowed even with PRB. The way things are going, I am thinking about agitating for a 6 month atlatl season.

9.3X62AL
04-18-2014, 02:36 PM
The way things are going, I am thinking about agitating for a 6 month atlatl season.

THAT is old-school in 3 dimensions! I like that reasoning.

My areas (CA D-8 and D-14) offer an archery-only early season; general season allows all firearms types, no set-asides for primitive firearms. Our general seasons are generally 4-6 weeks too early, as well. One resolution that would address both questions would be to offer a 2-week primitive firearms season in December, much like Michigan does with their "deep-snow" late hunt. I would specify loose black powder only--muzzle loader only--patched round ball only--iron sights only. Maybe Barnes can come up with a replacement non-lead roundball for the application.

dilly
04-18-2014, 03:27 PM
You can hunt with atlatls in Missouri. I think they include it in the bow or black powder season or something.

rush1886
04-18-2014, 03:41 PM
You are 100% NOT off base. A "Primitive weapons" hunt should be just that!

Here in my state of residence, seasons are designated as primitive, and your rifle must meet certain criteria: load from the muzzle only, with a projectile within .01" of nominal bore diameter, eliminating the plastic cup crowd, and the ignition source must be exposed, not contained, eliminating the 209's, and open sighted-no scopes.

After 20 yrs of hunting with percussion and flintlock guns, 50 & 54 caliber, taking mule deer, prong horns, elk, and an American Bison, I too get a bit po'd, when some yahoo starts talking about hunting with "a muzzleloader", and proceeds to produce one of the modern caricatures.

In Idaho, if you choose to do so, you may carry one of the modern inlines, even scoped, in any "general" or "any-weapon" season. If you apply for, and obtain a tag for, any of the "primitive weapon only" seasons, packing an inline will get you in some serious hot water. This is how it should be, IMHO.

Carry on Sir!

siamese4570
04-18-2014, 03:54 PM
I guess that's why they have chocolate and vanilla. Don't really care what everybody else does, I'll still keep using my flintlock or caplock. I thought that I had gone all "hi-tec" last year when I put together a caplock with a fast twist barrel for use with conical lead boolits. oh well....

oh and one more thing, I use a single shot 45-70 with cast boolits at bp velocity loads during modern rifle season. worked just fine.
Siamese4570

starmac
04-18-2014, 04:12 PM
Personally I like the idea of primitive weapons meaning exactly what it says in black and white, but it is kind of like the constitution, it seems they are both open to interpretation.

M-Tecs
04-18-2014, 04:22 PM
My take is a little different. I play within the law. Most states have long since moved away from a "Primitive weapons season" to anything goes muzzleloaders. Some states are moving to straight wall centerfire single shot rifles as “Primitive Weapons”. I think this is a mistake but if it legal my original 45/70 trapdoors and Winchester High Walls would become my rifles of choice.

I hunt with stick bow, compound bow, iron sight handgun, scoped handgun, iron sight centerfire rifle, scoped centerfire rifle, scoped slug gun and in muzzleloaders traditional sidelocks with real PB and patched round balls to smokeless powder muzzleloaders.

As long as it is legal method I cannot find fault with anyone’s hunting method. I can find fault with the laws and work to change them.

The State Legislators are the ones that make the laws. I have successfully lobbied to have the hunting laws changed three times so it can be done.

If you don’t like the law work to change it but please don’t tell me my LEGAL choice of hunting method makes you “sick”

NVScouter
04-18-2014, 04:35 PM
I'm actually "OK" with in-lines that are held to the same range restrictions as a cap or flintlock.

I choose to hunt with a reflex deflex or recurve bow for archery. Some of the new bows are less than 4#, 60# draw with 80% let off, and shooting 100fps over mine with mechanical broadheads and illuminated pins out to 80y. I dont care for that but I can handle it.

Sabots are old school tech thats come back in a big way...just like the Accutrigger is based off a 1890ish design. 209 ingition and 50g block charges are pushing it. My new Remmington improved #10 caps I just got put new life into my .36 revolver. Posative ignition can be had my a clean well maintained firearm..or a 209. The advantage isnt in the shot or reload in my opinion. But again I can live with that.

Iron sites and a rifle designed for 100y shooting with a skilled person able to hunt to 250y makes it primative. If anybody can grab the rifle toss in 3 charges, a sabot'd .44 mag bullet, line up the 50/100/150/200/250/300/350/400/450/500 bar on the scope and hit...you just missed the point.

dragon813gt
04-18-2014, 04:55 PM
I guess I don't care because PA has two distinct seasons. There is a week long muzzleloader season that runs along w/ archery and is before rifle. And then there is the late Flintlock season that runs after rifle. The flintlock season runs for more than a week. So use what's legal during the seasons.

Here is what's going to eventually happen. The wrong people are going to find out about how powerful the newer muzzle loaders are. Same thing for shotgun slugs. When they realize how powerful and how far they can reach they are going to raise hell over it. That's when pressure is going to be put on the game commissions to reduce season lengths or change what is allowed to be used. This is not good for any hunter. People have less free time than ever so I understand wanting to maximize your chance of taking an animal.

NVScouter
04-18-2014, 04:58 PM
My take is a little different. I play within the law.

As long as it is legal method I cannot find fault with anyone’s hunting method. I can find fault with the laws and work to change them.


I agree and as sportsmen/women we need to be involved with our State Fish and Game departments to do so. I've had about 50/50 sucess here.

"If you don’t like the law work to change it but please don’t tell me my LEGAL choice of hunting method makes you “sick"

Sorry its my opinion based on the experiences of my life. My Uncle was one of the main reasons Nevada has a muzzleloader season. He didnt give a darn about anything else and just did his own thing in the 60s. He found more folks like him and they became friends and when it got harder to compete with more hunters with modern arms did something about it. That was the point, spirit, and intent of the season.

I believe in the spirit of the law, but we are held to its letter.

I was born on the Rodeo grounds while my Dad rode bulls to keep us fed. Many of the men that mentored me worked hard on a handshake and didnt mince words. I've become more open to different ideology but when you play with the law a part of you knows its not what the intent was. Right or Wrong. If a law morally offends you then its your choice to break it...but do so with conviction.

Does it mean so much to you to get a big early buck like that? Would it tingle your guilt if you met an old traditional hunter that had been after him for 4 seasons? Would it be worth it to you?

GeezerinNH
04-18-2014, 05:26 PM
NH bent over to the 2 big companies, TC and GM whose shills said if it loads from the muzzle it is primitive. Bull!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My own opinion differs For the ML season it should be period rifles only (Although I only shoot Flintlocks even in the general season). Note both were in NH (Knight were made by GM)

For the guys who say TC percussion cap guns (period kind) can misfire on the first shot I say learn how to make them fire. My flint's are faster than their cap locks, buy a better gun you want to be primitive.

I would love to have NH go to period style rifles for the ML season but it will never happen IMHO

M-Tecs
04-18-2014, 06:38 PM
Primitive (to me) is 1840’s period technology using real black powder in flint or sidelock. That is what I believe primitive seasons should be. By the way scopes started to be used in the 1840’s.

If I made the laws the muzzleloading season would true a “primitive season” with no inlines. Most state have moved away from a period primitive season to a muzzleloader season that allows scopes, inlines and any choice of powder. I lobbied against allowing inlines in my homestate. We lost. It’s hard to misinterpret the intent of the law when it changes from sidelocks using patched round ball to inline scoped rifles.

I started muzzeloading hunting during the regular rifle season before we had a muzzleloading seasons. Same for handgun. Went to my first Rendezvous in 1974 and I started building muzzleloaders in 1976 so I have pretty good understanding of what the intent of the laws where in the early days and what they are today.




I've become more open to different ideology but when you play with the law a part of you knows its not what the intent was. Right or Wrong. If a law morally offends you then its your choice to break it...but do so with conviction.


You lost me here. We are talking about a type of legal firearm that you don’t like. What does that have to do with breaking the law?



Does it mean so much to you to get a big early buck like that? Would it tingle your guilt if you met an old traditional hunter that had been after him for 4 seasons? Would it be worth it to you?

If someone is using a legal firearm I would be glad that they got a nice deer. I am partially color blind and I don’t track very well so with the bow I limit my shot to 30 yards. I did take one at 32. Two years ago I pasted on a 163” Whitetail at 46 yards. My buddy took him with a 54 yard shot. Not a shot I would take but I still was glad for my buddy. I also enjoy hunting with my original Trapdoors. When I do I am self-limiting my range but I have no issues with someone else using whatever legal firearm they what even if it gives them an advantage over my weapon of choice.


I don't really care what everybody else does as long as it is legal. Again if I don’t like the law I will work to change it.

If the law allows for state of the art smokeless muzzleloaders as well as well as smoothbore flintlock trade guns who am I (or you) to state the one is more “Right or Wrong” than the other?

While I don't agree with it the intent is pretty clear here.
http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/hunting/primitive-firearms-louisiana-seasons

Effective with the 2012-2013 Louisiana hunting season, the following firearms are legal for use during the primitive firearm deer season:

1. Rifles or pistols, .44 caliber minimum, or shotguns 10 gauge or smaller, all of which must load exclusively from the muzzle or cap and ball cylinder, use black powder or approved substitute only, take ball or bullet projectile only, including saboted bullets, including primitive firearms known as “in line” primitive firearms, and

2. Single shot, breech loading rifles, .35 caliber or larger having an exposed hammer that uses metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. All of the above may be fitted with magnified scopes.

missionary5155
04-18-2014, 08:46 PM
Greetings
Some of us have felt that way about archery for a long while. Not many of us long or recurve string pullers left. But I can live with that. Two fellers that started with the hi-tech things are also learning to shoot recurves without sights.

But let me ask you caplockers a question.. Why do you need that type of ignition ? Is not a flinter actually far more primitive ? So then I would ask .. how about a matchlock... I built one of them too .
I see it all as a point of reference or prefernce. I would rather my neighbor is out there leveling another corn cruncher with a in-line caliber .45 super blaster than my wife taking out that same doe with our 2001 Chevy. Every hunter has his place and I am glad they are out there.
Now I will go back and read what all the others think.
Mike in Peru

357maximum
04-18-2014, 09:24 PM
I have carried several different kinds of bow during "gun" season, my buddy always carries a homemade stickbow during the "gun" season....just because the next yahoo wants to carry a super duper inline does not mean you have to....what is that man taking from YOUR EXPERIENCE? If it is legal to do so.... use what you want and do not worry about what the guy 1/2 mile away is doing is how I do what I WANT TO DO....just because he legally totes the equivalent of a modern gun does not mean I HAVE TO.

dk17hmr
04-18-2014, 09:43 PM
If it fires a projectile and is legal to hunt with I will use it after I have "mastered" it. I bow hunt primarily with my compounds because I have lost the muscle memory and instinctive hold for my recurves...although I am getting it back daily shooting several arrows a night.

The thing about inlines over traditional, scopes over irons, compounds over stick bows...they are easier/more ethical for those that lack time.

Every year I write the Wyoming Game and Fish and request a late season primitive deer hunt (draw only) in my area to get a chance at the massive bucks I see when I'm coyote hunting in November. In the letter I ask specifically for an iron sight flint or cap lock rule. Open ground iron sighted muzzleloader hunt during the rut would get me going for sure.

But without a doubt if that became a draw tag it would turn into a not so primitive hunt.....after a lot of people complaining about not being able to fill their tag with the equipment requirements.

M-Tecs
04-18-2014, 10:11 PM
Every year I write the Wyoming Game and Fish and request a late season primitive deer hunt (draw only) in my area to get a chance at the massive bucks I see when I'm coyote hunting in November. In the letter I ask specifically for an iron sight flint or cap lock rule. Open ground iron sighted muzzleloader hunt during the rut would get me going for sure.


In most states this goes through the State Legislator. Find a State Rep and a State Senator that is willing to sponsor a bill for you. The problem is you never have a set time when the bill goes to the floor. If you want to testify you may only have an couple of hours’ notice that it is coming to the floor.

I have done this 7 or 8 times. I was successful three times and my bills became law. DNR and G&F make recommendations not law. For a season to become law it has to be approved by the State Legislator. Not sure this is true in all States but the couple I have dealt with this is the process.

Lefty Red
04-18-2014, 10:30 PM
I think the main objective to any hunt is to HUMANELY AND QUICKLY kill the animal. I don't care squat about how great you feel about what type of weapon you use, if its not going to allow the animal to suffer then you have problems IMHO.

Hawken users don't like Inlines.
Flinters don't think we should allow Cap guns.
Holy Black users turn their noses at Pydrox users.
Patched ball users hate sabot users.

Extra seasons are about thinning out a large population of game that is over populated. Its not about who has the most period correct outfit!

dk17hmr
04-18-2014, 10:41 PM
In most states this goes through the State Legislator. Find a State Rep and a State Senator that is willing to sponsor a bill for you. The problem is you never have a set time when the bill goes to the floor. If you want to testify you may only have an couple of hours’ notice that it is coming to the floor.

I have done this 7 or 8 times. I was successful three times and my bills became law. DNR and G&F make recommendations not law. For a season to become law it has to be approved by the State Legislator.

I am in touch with my local Rep about this as well. I still write a letter to the G&F as well.....maybe someone with a little more voice in G&F would read it and agree as well. I lack the time to devote much more than emails and letters.

C. Latch
04-18-2014, 10:44 PM
Yep, you're off base.

I enjoy shooting blackpowder arms. I enjoy hunting with whatever weapon is legal at the moment. If you don't like the rules, get rich, buy an enclosure, put your own deer in it, and kill them with sticks and rocks.

<--proud and unashamed shooter of blackpowder until deer season, at which point the smokeless savage rolls out with sabots and drops deer at 200 yards.

You have to understand this: states manage deer herds in order to entertain the citizenry. And to better manage them, they give us extra seasons that allow them to sell extra licenses and guns and ammo and, frankly, they see blackpowder seasons as a sales-tax dream, because the average citizen is too lazy to clean the thing correctly, forcing him to buy a new rifle every few years.

States love tax dollars.

Fishman
04-18-2014, 11:09 PM
If you hunt only with a sharpened stick that is a primitive weapon, except to the guy hunting with an unsharpened stick.

How do you do that purple color?

Who needs a 30 round magazine?
Semiautomatics aren't sporting arms.
The 2nd amendment is outdated and scares me.

When will people learn that worrying about what other people do is pointless and frankly just a waste of time? Making judgements about other people's choice of hunting guns!!??? Seriously!?

Duckiller
04-19-2014, 02:17 AM
If you really want to change the rules got to your state legislature of Fish and Game commision. Who ever makes the rules. Michigan recently allowed crossbows during archery season because us old people can't pull bows anymore. Real reason may have to do with commerce. Manufactures want to sell things they make, stores want to sell things they have ordered. Real question is do we need special hunts? LOet everyone use whatever they want and don't worry about what the next guy is using.

Screwbolts
04-19-2014, 08:30 AM
Conversations like this thread only tend to divide us. We all need to stick together or we will surely hang along.

We all have different dreams and goals, so why does it matter to some what we each as individuals choose to hunt with.

What ever handicap you choose to limit yourself with is fine, I do not need others to approve of my choice of devise to harvest deer.

Nor do I pass judgment on others choices.

Ken

btroj
04-19-2014, 10:04 AM
The State is only concerned with herd management, not the "quality" of the experience. They also look at things like selling more permits with a more open definition of primitive weapons.

TXGunNut
04-19-2014, 10:53 AM
If I want to hunt with a frontstuffer it will be a .54 Hawken using PRB and loose powder. I had to put an aperture sight on it to get any degree of accuracy so that would probably disturb the purists but so be it. I have no interest in the inlines but I know they're lots of fun and may get a few more folks interested in the BP game; but then again, maybe not.
We need more hunters and if the rifle that gets them into the game and into the field is one I personally dislike I'm OK with that, it would be a boring world if we all had the same likes and dislikes.

fouronesix
04-19-2014, 11:43 AM
Am I off base?

Nope- couldn't agree more!

JSnover
04-19-2014, 12:26 PM
If smokeless powder and cartridge ammunition had never been developed, the muzzleloader we shoot today would be far more advanced than those in use more than a century ago.
They'd have stainless barrels, synthetic stocks, high-dollar scopes, etc. It's just evolution. The technology would have matured, it just wouldn't have to compete with "modern" firearms.
I think it is laughable to hunt a primitive season with a Buck Rogers charcoal burner, but if you're legal and ethical I won't squawk about it.

NVScouter
04-19-2014, 01:05 PM
The quality of the hunt is improved during primitive seasons. They also allow unique areas to be hunted that aren't open to hi power rifles in many states.

If the range is shorter, the stalk is harder, more time spent per harvested animal. Couple this with weeding out the folks to lazy to do this it becomes one heck of an experience.

If it's all about getting meat use a centerfire and doe tags.

Elkins45
04-20-2014, 12:10 PM
We don't have a primitive weapon season here in KY; we have a muzzle loading rifle season. I hunt with a muzzle loading rifle. Of course, when I load it from the muzzle I pour in a charge of smokeless powder and seat a saboted boolet (home poured modified HP) on top of it. I love my Savage 10ML-II because I don't have to clean it. In fact, I leave it loaded from season to season and the last charge I load in the fall is the first sighting shot the next fall.

If KY tells me I need to shoot a patched ball with black powder then that's what I will do. The ML season here results in what is barely a blip in the statistics compared to the modern firearms season. I think topics like this don't do the community any favors because there's no good than can come from an us vs them mentality.

Again: in the case of where I live there is no such thing as a primitive weapon season. There's a ML season and the distinction matters.

M-Tecs
04-20-2014, 03:27 PM
I think topics like this don't do the community any favors because there's no good than can come from an us vs them mentality.

I could not agree more!!! What I don’t understand is the mentally that feels they must force their views on anyone that chooses to legally hunt differently than them. Some in this post claim that if you don’t subscribe to their version of hunting you are sickening, lazy and not experiencing a quality fair chase hunt.

I personally don’t care for hunting over waterholes or bait but where it is legal it is not my place to tell fellow hunters they are lesser hunters for legal hunting methods that I don’t choose to do myself.

My most enjoyable hunts have been with disabled vets and terminal ill when I didn’t carry a firearm or hunt. My least enjoy hunt was setting over a water hole with a smoothbore flint trade gun. A friend is into the French-Canadian Voyageur scene. He hunts black bear with spear and everything else with a smoothbore flint trade gun. He talked me into trade gun only antelope hunt over a water hole. He enjoyed the hunt. I did not but it’s not my place to tell him what he enjoys or doesn’t enjoy. I simply will not do it again.

dragon813gt
04-20-2014, 04:14 PM
Some in this post claim that if you don’t subscribe to their version of hunting you are sickening, lazy and not experiencing a quality fair chase hunt.

And this sums up why we have the 2nd Amendment issues we do. The hunting/shooting community really isn't a community. It's a bunch of small clicks that only care about their interests. I guess you could call them special interest groups. You have the shotgunners that will throw everyone under the bus to keep their shotguns. You have the shooters that will throw all hunters under the bus as long as they can keep their guns and vice versa. I find it all sickening. I don't understand how people can't support all form of hunting/shooting regardless if they participate in it or not. This is just common sense to me. And if they all supported the NRA, doesn't matter if you agree w/ them 100%, that 100 pound gorilla would be unstoppable. But people would rather whine and complain while their rights are slowly being taken away.
/rant

Rangefinder
04-20-2014, 05:48 PM
Yup, it's a little frustrating when the 'skill' portion of anything gets constantly replaced by another gadget. I use to shoot archery leagues once upon a time. It got more frustration by the event when more and more would show up with something that looked like it was out of a sci-fi movie with stabilizers hanging every which way, bubble levels on their sights, etc. When that made it's way into the outdoor 3D shoots, I complained, then said "screw 'em". I shoot instinctive with a 60'lb recurve in my back yard and can hit the kill zone on a deer at will from as far as my back yard will allow--not quite 60 yards. The techno-gear heads wouldn't stand a chance if they had to do that with my bow, and I take my own simple pleasure in that. Starting to view the inline "muzzle-loader" crown the same way. Hand 'em a flinty with a RB and powder horn and they'll either be trimming trees or plowing dirt with it. Technology has it's trade-offs, and developing genuine skill does too. I'll take my chances with skill.

Boogieman
04-20-2014, 06:20 PM
When the flint in my gun gets dull I can knap it, try that on your electric fired inline when the battery goes dead.

Nicholas
04-20-2014, 06:40 PM
Our ML season in Missouri evolved to an alternate weapons hunt. Somebody has already taken a deer with an atlatl dart as in speared it during this season. All sorts of tools are permitted except centerfire rifles. I used a Contender pistol in 30-30 during the last season; in another season, I had success with a big revolver. I think of it as a bonus season that is the result of excellent management of the deer herd. It also helps put my supply of red meat in the freezer. And I like it that I get to try out various handguns for hunting. I could give a hoot about what other hunters use during the season as long as they follow the rules. We should be glad for the extra opportunity to enjoy time in the field.

rexherring
04-20-2014, 06:55 PM
To each his own. I loved going out with my rifle, black powder, patched ball, and a cap that I hoped went off. (or didn't fall off when I wasn't looking) But either way, single shot with open sights still takes more skill than rapid fire. I always kept shots within the same distances as with my Blackhawk .45. More hunting and many times more hunting.:-)

Doubless
04-20-2014, 08:12 PM
I find this thread rather interesting. Some see inlines as modern, when the inline action was actually developed back in the middle of the 19th century.

I shoot White muzzleloaders, and absolutely love them. I have been fortunate enough to hunt Idaho several times, twice with Whites. And yes, they are inlines... stainless barrels and actions, synthetic stock, etc. But they are equipped with a Lyman peep, and I shoot loose powder behind conicals I pour myself. Accurate as heck!

There is a dentist in CO that posts fairly often on a site called Monster Muleys. He too shoots a White, and two years ago his elk was shot the first time at a lazered distance of 287 yards. His rifle uses a Lyman peep, just like mine. The point is, learn to shoot the rifle and then take it to the woods.

I am fortunate: in Texas where I live, there is a stable population of somewhere around four million whitetails, so harvest methods and limits are pretty lenient. The last whitetail I shot was taken with a White, but this one was scoped. Was it any less of a thrill? Not to me. Did it make for a more humane kill and quicker dispatch? Absolutely.

I see it this way: use what you will, so long as it is within the confines of the law, and don't turn up your nose at me because my choice is different from yours.

Elkins45
04-20-2014, 08:17 PM
When the flint in my gun gets dull I can knap it, try that on your electric fired inline when the battery goes dead.

I don't have an electric fired inline and I'm not sure of your point. Can you start your truck with a hand crank?

Not referring to you specifically, but I do wonder just how sincere the primitive advocates really are. Do they drive an automobile to their hunting grounds? Do they use a battery powered flashlight? Wear synthetic fabrics in the field or use scent killing products? How about tree stands made in a Chinese factory somewhere? Do they cast the balls for their rifle over a wood fire and weave the cloth for patches on a hand powered loom? Etc...

I'm guessing that a whole bunch of the folks criticizing people with different ideas of what gun to hunt with probably aren't really all that primitive. Surely I'm not the only person who sees the irony of advocating for primitive stuff on a discussion forum running over a computer network?

Elkins45
04-20-2014, 08:30 PM
The techno-gear heads wouldn't stand a chance if they had to do that with my bow, and I take my own simple pleasure in that. Starting to view the inline "muzzle-loader" crown the same way. Hand 'em a flinty with a RB and powder horn and they'll either be trimming trees or plowing dirt with it. Technology has it's trade-offs, and developing genuine skill does too. I'll take my chances with skill.

I think we are having two different conversations here. Nobody is stopping you from using whatever equipment you like and developing whatever level of skill you desire. The gear choices of others don't lessen your proficiency, but so long as people follow the rules then blame the rules and not the people.

I applaud anyone who develops a skill, but some skills are more valuable than others. I once earned my living shooting pictures with manual focus cameras and then developing and printing black and white film. I was very skilled at it, but now guess what? All those skills I learned mean less than jack now. The world moved on and it left me behind. I can choose to hate Photoshop and digital cameras, but my resentment of them doesn't make them go away. There's no primitive photo season.

GeezerinNH
04-21-2014, 06:03 PM
The State is only concerned with herd management, not the "quality" of the experience. They also look at things like selling more permits with a more open definition of primitive weapons. They are only concerned with raising revenue IMHO

35 Whelen
04-21-2014, 10:29 PM
I didn't read all the posts, so I hope someone hasn't addressed this. (By the way, I'm WITH the OP. If it's called primitive, then it should be primitive!)

Let's see how too much of a good thing can bite you right square in the @ss:

Here in Texas, we like other states have an archery season. As we all know, archery hunting has gone from the challenge of a long or recurve bow with no sights, to unrecognizable gizmoes with every trinket, bell and whistle imaginable. Archers everywhere are joyful with all these little tweaks and toys that help their success. A few years ago Texas made it legal for archers, with a physical handicap to use a device that held the bow at full draw. It's all good now! Just another little something to give and edge, right? Well heck, they figured, that sort of made bows that used these devices resemble crossbows. Hmm....(can you see what's coming?) So, the powers that be then made crossbows legal for hunters with upper limb handicaps.There! All good! But wait, what would be wrong with letting ALL archers use crossbows? Grumbling, pissing, and moaning, wailing and gnashing of teeth. All the technology was OK right up UNTIL the crossbow was made legal.

One gizmo too many. LOL These guys crack me up.....

The purpose of primitive arms season, originally, was to let hunters use short range weapons, and the challenge therein, early in season when game was less likely to be spooky. Now we have hunters with "primitive" arms that have ballistics and trajectories that are better than a lever action 30-30, which ironically isn't legal during primitive seasons.

Watch this issue closely. There are too many hairs being split...

Doubless
04-23-2014, 01:08 PM
Crossbow or longbow, or compound bow... it really doesn't matter. Effective range is about the same distance.

Murphy
04-23-2014, 03:45 PM
My primitive arms hunting began about 30 years ago. I borrowed some Italian kit gun he had assembled in .50 Cal. Here in Oklahoma back at that time, primitive meant primitive. Hot Shot nipples as there were called weren't even allowed.

Over the next few years, I purchased a couple of different T/C's and stuck with one. One of the main things that got me started in primitive arms hunting was getting the season off to hunt. Regular rifle season was taken by all the old timers at work.

There were a few times primitive seasons my hunting buddy and I spent 11 days straight in the hill's, camped out. One year, we only came across 2-3 other hunters over the course of the entire season. Then, inines were allowed. Within a few short years, it almost looked like regular rifle season during primitive arms season. Why? Knight's inlines were just hitting the market along with a very few others. And scopes were allowed as well.

I wondered for several good years how it came to be that what was once a season few hunted, had boomed into such a popular season. I came to conclude it was simple once I thought about it. MONEY! Yes, money. The state sold untold 1,000's more tags, license....etc.

End of story.....

Murphy

NVScouter
04-25-2014, 12:12 PM
I'd like to adress a few views here:

1) "Its about selling more tags/more $$" Yes! But animal populations dont sprout with tag allocations. True primative seasons have very low sucess rates so you can then sell those tags again making even more money. If you allow every gizmo and modern arm sucess goes up and you cant sell that tag again. Its 100% not true that this doesnt matter on an ethical and finanical implication.

2) Special Needs Hunters. I never said anything about them but its like handicap plates. Sometimes you see a disabled person making it happen, other times you see a 500lb 25 year old waddling out of a lifted Suburban at Taco Bell. I'll leave it at that.

3) Why do we hunt? Meat: get a doe tag Connecting with nature: Fair Chase hunts will connect you more, even so the longer you hunt.

4) "Fish and Game doesnt care about the experience" False, like any other business this is what gets you repeat business. Most states are very careful to protect the integrity and image of the state's wildlife business. Its a heck of a money maker and money talks even if morals of a state are low.

NVScouter
04-25-2014, 12:18 PM
Crossbow or longbow, or compound bow... it really doesn't matter. Effective range is about the same distance.

Sure and its a lot harder than rifle hunting, or single shot handguns. But its not the same as a traditional bow in range. You also dont have to worry about drawing/holding for a shot and getting busted.

That being said open site crossbows have been around longer than black powder arms.

NVScouter
04-25-2014, 12:22 PM
Fishman the issue its what you can have or use. Its what can/should use during a specialty season. The general season is for that. I may think its dumb to shoot does with a .50BMG but wouldnt outlaw it. Make fun, keep my butt down, check my house for holes...yes. But not make illegal.

I dont want this to be the next Jim Zumbo experience....


If you hunt only with a sharpened stick that is a primitive weapon, except to the guy hunting with an unsharpened stick.

How do you do that purple color?

Who needs a 30 round magazine?
Semiautomatics aren't sporting arms.
The 2nd amendment is outdated and scares me.

When will people learn that worrying about what other people do is pointless and frankly just a waste of time? Making judgements about other people's choice of hunting guns!!??? Seriously!?

Fishman
04-25-2014, 04:14 PM
I understand the concern, I really do. As a counterpoint, when I was younger, the state I lived in had a 9 day deer season and I NEVER drew a doe tag. Orange everywhere and no deer. Populations have boomed to the point where such restrictions are unnecessary. Here in Texas, the deer season is 3 months long or so, and feeders, 30 round mags, and suppressors are just fine. Other states have multiple seasons of every description and all that does imho is cause hard feelings. I also see the same thing with fishing. Anglers like to complain about trotliners, jugliners, bow anglers, hand fishermen, bass anglers, striper anglers, keeping too much, keeping too little, keeping the wrong sizes, ad nauseum. I see a lot of regulations come along that are socially driven as opposed to having any semblance of science behind them. Just another form of class warfare. Folks don't have a bit of problem blaming their inept abilities on someone else. "The da--ed (insert angler group here) caught all the fish and my kids can't catch any. When will you guys think of the children and not somebody in an expensive (insert truck, boat, house, ranch, airplane, whatever here).

So all I'm saying is that I think the outdoors should be inclusive and inviting. Regulations limiting bag and size are fair to everyone. Regulations limiting means and methods beyond those absolutely necessary to prevent direct conflict among participants are divisive and do the sport a disservice.

bigted
04-25-2014, 04:38 PM
LOL ... had a friend of a friend that hunted hogs in Arizona with a spear. he very much looked down his nose at anybody that hunted with ANY other system as he was convinced to a shouting match ... that the spear was as modern as any sane person needed to hunt game animals with.

the friend of mine whose friend was this spear chucker [didn't like this first feller too much as he was just a goof in my opinion] hunted with a straight long bow. he hunted bear and cougar in Oregon and was thoroughly convinced that his Arizona buddy was straight up crazed with his spear conviction ... BUT ... when we entered into a conversation on compound bows ... he would get ballistic in his animated view on these new style bow's and there is no way to convince him that a compound bow is a great thing for the bow hunts ... he is firmly convinced that the long bow is the pure medicine and will ALLOW that in certain places the shorter recurve bow as kinda acceptable.

then along came myself in the camp that I do not like the bow hunting and so I don't give two shiners for bow hunting ... but ... I AM in the camp that believes that a muzzle loader should be at least a traditional cap lock using number 11 caps on a rifle that has no faster twist then a 60 twist. I balk at the inlines with their spiffy fast twist barrels and capability of scope mounting as well as the pistolgrip stock that is nothing more then a blob of plastic and rubber mixed together for an ugly looking modern rifle. I even have some problem with the fast twist barrels that serve to stabilize the boolits that give such great accuracy and power in animal harvesting. [I own both tho ...lol]

now that im older and a bit of moss on me ... I have a vast realization that shocks me and is a revelation to what is actually happening.

in history you will see that hunters have ... for the vast percentage ... lusted for the newest and best of harvesting machinery ... or TOOLS.

when the caplock came down the pike ... hunters and solders alike lusted for these NEW rifles with the vastly more consistent ignition. then at the end of the civil war the NEW thing that came about was a metal contained cartridge that could be loaded in such fast system that most of the old muzzle loaders were either converted to this vast new system and the old was left behind. THEN came a rifle that was the center of everybody's attention and on the cutting edge of technology ... the SHARPS SYSTEM. followed by the next huge system improvement which was the lever action repeater which forever changed the outlook on what was best for all uses ... next came the bolt action rifle ... followed by the semi-auto rifle ... then a machine gun that could be held in your hands for mobility.

so all in all I see that the improvements have been well accepted by and large and that these improvements have helped us in the hunting fields and held a place of honor as they came to be.

some however have a lust for yesteryear and a desire that others would see things their way. this is fine but why try to take a law and change it to suit our individual desires ... its not like we depend ... for the most part anyway ... on the game we harvest for our ability to live and survive or not ... some just simply have the desire to hunt in the old ways and I say MORE POWER TO YOU !!! it so far is your rite to so hunt and like myself and moose season ... half hope I don't shoot one and if I do I want a small bull with little small stubs stickin outta his noggin ... just way too much work for me anymore.

so why is it that anybody wants to prescribe to another what he/she uses for their hunting devise? do what you desire and look for places to hunt where you can do so without being disturbed by another's way they desire to hunt.

I well remember times in the past AND present that I have been hidden from view and silently watched modern hunters stroll past with no idea I was within a mile of them ... completely convinced that they were ALONE in the wilderness. I smirk as they stroll by and chatter with each other as they "hunt" and after they leave and the world settles down again ... I usually see game that has like wise hidden till these MODERN "hunters" get outta sight and hearing.

in my humble and lengthy words ... I believe that there is still room for us all to do it the McDonalds way ... your way!!! my best times are out in the woods hunkering round a fire at nite and listening to the sounds of nite time and clutching my instrument of desire and completely happy that I have the opportunity to do so still even after all my years of searching for the PERFECT rifle.

geezer56
04-26-2014, 12:41 AM
I have a saying that I use frequently. All available technology. If not for technological advancements, we would all be walking everywhere we go and living in caves. If it's legal and I can afford it, I use it. Remember guys, we are hunters and shooters. We need to support each other and quit the squabbling. The anti hunters love us for our lack of cohesion. Hang together or be hung separately.

10 ga
04-30-2014, 12:14 AM
Yeah, you're off base. Here it's a muzzleloading gun season. So long as it loads powder and 45 cal or larger projectile down the barrel it is legal. I've been banned from some forums as I use smokeless muzzleloaders and other such. Yes I have "traditional" MLs and used them when/where required. And as for what is fair and not??? Well I'm retired and hunt EVERY DAY that I want to. Is it fair that I hunt every day and others can only hunt on weekends and holidays because they work? Is it fair that the best hunters kill way more game than ordinary hunters, even with daily and season limits? Is it fair that some people think that the type of equipment determines the quality of the hunting experience and try to have everybody do what they think provides the best experience? Is it fair that the "traditional" crowd and buckskinners call me names and claim my equipment and methods decrease the quality of their hunting experience, I certainly don't make that claim on other people. And yes, I do other stuff too, like: hunt with smokeless muzzleloaders, use rifles for turkey hunting, hunt deer with dogs, use trotlines/gillnets/fishpots for fish, hoopnets for turtles, various mt. Cur and other silent trail tree dogs for coon hunting and other stuff that is legal. Enuff of the rant but you get my drift, I hope. 10 ga

Screwbolts
04-30-2014, 06:59 AM
Well said 10 ga!!!!!

clintsfolly
04-30-2014, 11:51 AM
10ga You said it better then I want to! What I want to know is how appointed them as the keeper of the hunt standards? I do not care what you hunt with as long as it,s legal and you leave me alone to enjoy my hunt!! Clint

NVScouter
04-30-2014, 04:30 PM
So you would fish with a hunting license and fly a plane with a drivers license?

10ga your last bit is about time/effort getting rewarded more...thats the point. Counting last night I have a 98% sucess rate on my big game tags. National average is 40-60% overall. I work hard, shoot A LOT, maintain my gear, scout, get to know locals, and much more.

Clint-I've already addressed the diference between the spirit of the law (why it was created) and the letter of the law (whats written in black and white). I also addressed that if you feel the law is wrong you can either not obey it, change it, or deal with it. But if you "play within the law" to give yourself an unqual advantage you can ruin the season or screw it up for everybody.

I've found lots of the "how primitive" remarks thought provoking, and many of the "I dont care about other hunter's experience" views depressing. I've had great times BSing with other hunters or helping a total stranger haul a critter off the mountain. More hunters should slow it down a bit and emerese themselves in why they are there.


10ga You said it better then I want to! What I want to know is how appointed them as the keeper of the hunt standards? I do not care what you hunt with as long as it,s legal and you leave me alone to enjoy my hunt!! Clint

clintsfolly
04-30-2014, 08:26 PM
I also shoot,clear trails,scout,help others,hunt as hard as I am able and love to BS with friends and others. What I do not like is people that think that there way to hunt is the only way to go. If you want a flint lock go for it but do not look down your nose at me for my smokeless. Would you like it if you where being look down on by a guy with a match lock? So with this I am going back to reading and keeping my mouth shut. Hope you have a great season and hunt with the weapon you like and I will do the same!! Clint

leeggen
04-30-2014, 09:28 PM
I know this sounds crazy but I hunt just like my forfathers did, I don't use camo nor cover scents nor do I care what you hunt with as long as it is legal and you stay within the law. Some just don't understand why I hunt with a percussion mz instead of an inline. Some just really don't understand why I won't use scents or camo. Do I care no cause that is MY WAY of hunting. What you choose as your stile is up to you not me. You do not interfear with my enjoyment in myway of hunting nor do I interfear with the way you hunt as long as it is whhithin the law.
When I decided to do my old style hunting I have grown to really respect mother nature and the FAIR chase of game. I now hunt on her grounds in the animals(deer or which ever) domain and it is a real rush when I do get my game animal. Each his own choice and we are after a few things in common an enjoyable hunt , time with mother nature, and some real nice quiet time to ourselves and/or with friends.
CD

M-Tecs
04-30-2014, 10:32 PM
But if you "play within the law" to give yourself an unqual advantage you can ruin the season or screw it up for everybody.


The law applies equally to all. If you are complying to the law you do not have any unequal advantages or the ability to ruin the season for someone else or screw it up for everyone. If you want parity anyone with more skills, ability or time than the laziest, stupidest least talented hunter has an unfair advantage than the worst hunter. Complaining about someone else’s legal hunting methods is pointless and incredibly arrogant.

The original purpose of hunting was to survive. Since man started hunting naked with nothing more than sticks and stones man has applied various rules or rituals to hunting. These rules and rituals changed as needs and conditions changed.

If YOU don’t like the rules work to change them but it’s not your place to tell anyone else how they should hunt or what spirit of the law supposedly is. You seem hung up on a misinterpretation of what the spirit of the law is. The spirit of the law goes back no further than the last time the law was changed.

horsesoldier
05-01-2014, 03:58 AM
I like the muzzle loading regulations here in Idaho. I am not one to look down my nose at someone using an inline if it is legal in that state.The any weapons hunt here is almost 2 months long and they can use whatever gun or spear they want.

I do get a kick out of watching these hunting shows where they put a food plot up and a covered tripod blind.They are shooting some fancy inline with a scope.It would be easy for me to judge those that sit in a stand all day and hunt over food plots.Heck, I had some people judge me here when I had my thread about bear baiting.Its none of my business and its not my place.

TXGunNut
05-01-2014, 08:45 PM
My preferences and rules only apply to me, they're legal and they make me happy. What makes me even happier is seeing other folks out enjoying themselves too.

GMW
05-06-2014, 10:51 AM
We all have to live by our own standards as long as it is not breaking the law! My muzzleloader is a custom .60 caliber with a 44inch barrel with a 60 inch twist flintlock. Flintlocks won two wars for this country and it makes me laugh when someone spews garbage about how they are unreliable. A 60cal patched round ball will drop any deer in it's tracks...and yes they will fire perfectly in rainy humid weather if you do your part. Cap locks are a passing fad that will never catch on.

tahoe2
05-16-2014, 12:50 AM
I didn't read all 3 pages, that said; here goes,
I say use whatever your laws allow, hunt hard, enjoy the experience,
don't let other laws or types of muzzleloaders out there influence your
thoughts on it. your passing judgement on what you can't control.
mine is .50 cal Hawken caplock.

slughammer
05-17-2014, 12:45 AM
I say the law should set the dates and hand out the tags; I'll choose how I chase, and what satisfaction I get out of my choice. (By dates I mean September to February, I'll choose a hand gun in a tree stand in October, now just give me the tag and leave me alone),

NVScouter
05-17-2014, 09:26 PM
Slughammer I agree 100%.

Longer seasons would get higher success rates. That would be more equal for real harvest numbers and let you hunt how you want. But then they couldn't sell tags 2-4 times so it won't happen.

Digital Dan
05-17-2014, 11:10 PM
1. I'd still hunt with a flintlock if they did away with "primitive weapons" seasons. If they did eliminate the early season primitive weapons hunts, the market for inline ML guns would vanish over night. Case closed.
2. I have a BP muzzle loading target gun that is fully capable of whacking a deer at 500 yards. It uses #11 caps, has a Kreiger barrel, a false muzzle and a few other accessories to boot. I don't think there are many sabot shooting MLs that can do that. Everything aspect of the rifle is based on technology available in the latter half of the 19th Century.

Most of the folks I know that hunt inlines don't differentiate between shooting and hunting.

Beagle333
05-17-2014, 11:32 PM
Here, it's not called "extra seasons" for thinning the herd even more, as I saw somewhere back in this thread. It's called Primitive Weapons season. But they will let anybody hunt with a thumbhole custom composite-stocked scoped inline Knight using smokeless powder and a sabot. As long as you poke the bullet in the front end before you shoot it, it falls under Primitive Weapons. It might not have been the intent, but it's how people use it. I think it should be more restrictive, but that's just my thinking. We have a 78 day gun season, with a 2 deer per day limit, and only a 4 day primitive weapons season. I'd like to see em leave the buckskinners alone for those 4 days and let em hunt the old way.... but it ain't gonna happen. They want a 82 day modern rifle season, which is what it amounts to.

xtphreak
05-18-2014, 12:23 PM
...

There is a dentist in CO that posts fairly often on a site called Monster Muleys. He too shoots a White, and two years ago his elk was shot the first time at a lazered distance of 287 yards. ...

... Did it make for a more humane kill and quicker dispatch? ...



You're bragging on this guy and he shot an elk, " the first time" at 287 yards?

So how many times did he have to shoot this animal?

Maybe it was a little bit further away than he should have been shooting?

Even with a "white" muzzleloader vs. a "black" muzzleloader?

Del-Ray
05-18-2014, 02:22 PM
Wow. I actually agree with both sides on this. If a hunt is designated as ML, there's a reason for it. Generally ML are a bit harder to field easily. The modern ML turn that idea on it's head.

Then there's the guys that say, no fair! Let me hunt like I want to. I agree with that as well.

I guess there's a simple way to fix this. Drop the ML season all together. If you like to use cap and ball, or flint you still can. And if you want to use the modern smokeless electro ignition wonder guns you can do that too. Of corse you'll be hunting along with those hunters using truely modern arms, but hey. No one is telling you not to use your rifle.

After selling licenses at the gun shop I came to the idea a long time ago to just drop all the special seasons. Sell early, standard, and late licenses and let people use whatever they want, as modern ML, and modern crossbows have taken the hunt out of most hunters. At least here in MI.

TXGunNut
05-19-2014, 01:50 AM
As far as I know we don't have a frontstuffer season in TX. I have a frontstuffer hunting rifle, someday I'll hunt with it. It's a T/C Hawken .54 caplock loaded with real BP & .530 balls...with an aperture rear sight to accomodate my presbyopia. If that offends the purists so be it. When it kills a pig (or deer) it'll be fair chase and legal meat in the freezer, 'nuff said.

JesterGrin_1
05-19-2014, 03:37 AM
As far as I know we don't have a frontstuffer season in TX. I have a frontstuffer hunting rifle, someday I'll hunt with it. It's a T/C Hawken .54 caplock loaded with real BP & .530 balls...with an aperture rear sight to accomodate my presbyopia. If that offends the purists so be it. When it kills a pig (or deer) it'll be fair chase and legal meat in the freezer, 'nuff said.

TEXAS only had Black Powder Season 1 year. And that is all it took. When people showed up with those inline muzzle loaders and such as I was told they felt it defeated the reason to have a Black Powder season between Bow and Regular Rifle season so instead of bucking the horse they removed it. But you can hunt with Black Powder anything during normal Rifle Seasons.

35remington
05-19-2014, 11:14 PM
Have an "any weapons" season and nothing else and watch those using the modern muzzle loaders, the sabot/jacketed/pellet/maybe smokeless/209 rifle types.....drop them like a hot potato. They use those and stretch the definition of the muzzleloader because it gives them a perceived edge. Remove the need for that edge by eliminating the "special" season and virtually no one would use them.

Everyone would go back to their trusty 30-06, and sales of that type of arm would absolutely plummet. Hunting, for most, is using the most efficient tool allowed by law. Since many "special" muzzleloader seasons allowed that type of arm, that's what everyone used.

Russ M
05-24-2014, 02:15 AM
We don't have a muzzleloader season but I've lived and hunted in states that do. No, inlines should not be allowed in muzzleloader season. No scopes. Side lock only. If it takes a 209 primer it doesn't qualify. I quit my NMLRA membership over this years ago because they kept pushing hunting articles using inlines. Let them know my reason for dumping them for all the good it did.

Russ

jonas302
05-24-2014, 10:59 AM
Mn calls it Muzzleloader so any front loaded rifle is fully legal the thing is inlines are cheap and a great way to get people into the sport some advance per say to older style guns as they go thats how it worked for me
To me a primitive weapon is a rock also as pointed out in the thread flintlock can be just as or more accurate than an inline so it doesn't put the "traditional" hunter at disadvantage also what is a traditional hunter I kinda doubt that is a guy all dressed up in a mountain man costume in my family tradition was to put meat in the freezer buy any means possible
I guess its about like saying you shouldn't use a supermag when I have cast boolits loaded in my 30-30 each to there own

Elkins45
05-24-2014, 11:19 AM
We don't have a muzzleloader season but I've lived and hunted in states that do. No, inlines should not be allowed in muzzleloader season. No scopes. Side lock only. If it takes a 209 primer it doesn't qualify. I quit my NMLRA membership over this years ago because they kept pushing hunting articles using inlines. Let them know my reason for dumping them for all the good it did.

Russ

But you would allow percussion caps? That's hardly primitive. Why not flintlock only? Or wheel/match lock only? Or make it so you have to ignite the charge through a touch hole with a punk stick. Or how about just a handful of rocks and a pointed stick?

How did you decide that the cutoff should be that percussion caps on sidelocks are OK but inlines with caps are not? Or that side locks with 209's would be bad? I'm going to venture a guess and say that you own a sidelock rifle that uses #11 percussion caps. You do realize that somewhere there's a flintlock guy that thinks percussion caps shouldn't be allowed in ML season, don't you?

My rifle offends your sensibilities. Every rifle offends someone's sensibilities. If KDFWR told me I was limited to sidelock rifles then I would drag my T/C Renegade back out. But since they haven't I appreciate not having to scrub the barrel of my Savage every evening.

44man
05-30-2014, 09:27 AM
It all comes down to personal satisfaction. If you shoot a deer at 200 with an inline and are happy, so what. I just prefer close up and use revolvers in rifle season because I was a bow hunter most of my hunting life. I shot many deer at long range with rifles and found it was not for me. I have shot more deer with flinters, shotguns, bows and revolvers then I can count.
I love long range shooting and shot wood chucks over 600 yards but that is different. Lack of excitement that deer close will give you. Just shooting!
In the end I shoot more deer then the rifle hunters around here, using a revolver.
I came to hate the compounds I have and went to a long bow last season. The reason is deer will jump a compound but not a long bow. NOISE. Then everyone today must have over 300 fps so they use arrows too light for penetration. I am tired of finding 6" of arrows inside deer. Almost cut myself many times when gutting. Yet the compound still has the short ranges and so does a crossbow.
Does not matter to me what you use because I get my deer anyway.
Most here use magnum rifles and lose hundreds of deer, I find at least ten lost when shroom hunting every spring. Small areas that I walk, what is up in the woods?
The whiz-bang super gun does not mean you get what you shoot at.
I got 7 last season, long bow and revolvers. No rifle hunter here came near that. I did not use a ML because it is easier then a revolver. Even a flinter.
I just prefer hunting and getting close. The revolver more then doubles bow range so that is progress in the modern sense of the word.
I don't know a single neighbor or friend that got a deer last season with an inline.
I don't like them because I have shot many and they get so hard to reload it is crazy. Seen friends run the ram rod against a tree to get a sabot down. I have shot my .54 over 200 times in a day without wiping the bore. Old stuff really works.

Elkins45
05-30-2014, 01:56 PM
Seen friends run the ram rod against a tree to get a sabot down.

I agree that sabots are annoying, and honestly I hate that rifles with modern ignition systems are only available with fast twist barrels. I hate having to buy sabots. I wish my Savage had a 1:48 twist so I could shoot cast Minnies in it.

Fast twist barrels and sabots are an "innovation" I could live without.

nanuk
05-30-2014, 07:28 PM
.... but I am old enough with eyes aged accordingly to wish scopes were allowed even with PRB....

a quality aperture sight will help extend your shooting until they approve scopes

nanuk
05-30-2014, 07:30 PM
You are 100% NOT off base. A "Primitive weapons" hunt should be just that!

Here in my state of residence...your rifle must meet certain criteria: ...the ignition source must be exposed, not contained, eliminating the 209's...
....

Carry on Sir!

My ML is an inline with an exposed nipple.... I use 209's too, so it would qualify for your season, so that rules does not eliminate the 209 primer

nanuk
05-30-2014, 07:36 PM
...
Not referring to you specifically, but I do wonder just how sincere the primitive advocates really are. Do they drive an automobile to their hunting grounds? Do they use a battery powered flashlight? Wear synthetic fabrics in the field or use scent killing products? How about tree stands made in a Chinese factory somewhere? Do they cast the balls for their rifle over a wood fire and weave the cloth for patches on a hand powered loom? Etc...
...

do they smelt their own ore to make the metal barrel? whittle down a tree for a stock using a flint knife?

how primitive DO some want to take it? (my guess? only primitive enough that it meets THEIR definition... and no one elses)

44man
05-31-2014, 09:46 AM
I had a problem with it at first but in the end, inline hunters do not really do that good in the field. Most trade hunting for shooting like the guys here that use .300 mags for deer when a 30-30 is all they need. I was not able to use a rifle in Ohio and used a bow or flinter, got deer all the time.
It could be said the .300 should not be allowed when the 30-30 is enough but to tell the truth, the .300 guys lose more deer. Distances are short, no bean fields. The bad thing is when a guy touches off the .300, he expects the deer to flop and if it doesn't he figures he missed and just waits for another. It is the power that goes to their heads.
What turned me was sitting on stand with a rifle and looking all around, said any deer that I see is DEAD! Just how exciting is it when a deer is 200 or 300 yards? The guy with a 200 yard inline is going to get rattled when a deer walks under or next to him. Chances are he will miss or cripple. The advanced gun has not made him a better hunter at all so use what you want to because there is no advantage in the end. You only think so. If I see you in the field with an inline, I will get a deer first anyway.
Bow hunting teaches you, do you know what it is like to draw a long bow or recurve on a deer at 10 to 20 yards? I lost count but have over 560 deer kills with about anything that can be shot. The bow and flinter have taken most but I am catching up with revolvers.
Bring your inline here, I will put you in a stand because it does not matter what gun you choose. You have no advantage at all. I will use my Ruger Old Army and you will help me load a deer! Yeah, I have killed deer with it.

35 Whelen
05-31-2014, 10:22 AM
My problem is not so much with the hunters as it is the DOW's allowing the in-lines, scopes, etc.

44man
05-31-2014, 10:24 AM
PA has or had a "primitive" season. Only a flintlock. I tracked deer in snow and always got one. Best hunting of my life, learned to track and outsmart them. Learned how they traveled. Tracked deer in Ohio and always got deer. Only two days I failed when deer went into private property. Next day I would get one. Your inline will NOT make it any easier. The biggest problem I had was cutting tracks. Took a lot of walking to find tracks. Once cut, there was meat in the freezer.
Your .300 mag would not help you a bit either.
One day on a drive in Ohio with all the farmers and friends, I seen a deer hide so I directed the drivers to it. He came out next to me and another hunter, I said. looks small but he unleashed his shotgun at it. I said "what the hell" and swung my .54 Hawken on him, running full bore across a winter wheat field. I seen orange in front of him so shot before getting to orange. He was over 120 yards and went head over tea kettle. I hit a little back but got him. I heard someone way up the hill say "had to be Miner."
The new guns are not going to make you a hunter at all so you can bring your .300 here in ML season. I just don't care.
I really love those with one or two deer telling you what to use and how to hunt.

44man
05-31-2014, 10:28 AM
The very worst are those that shoot but say "I don't hunt, but". Forget it.

44man
05-31-2014, 10:43 AM
One day in PA with my long rifle I see guy walking the creek bed fast. I could not find tracks so I headed to the creek. The first guy was long gone but I talked to the second guy. I asked if he seen any tracks, he said "no." I crossed and found all kinds of tracks. Took time to work them out until I seen where they left. I was going up a steep hill and seen a big doe stick her head and neck out from behind a tree. I shot at her neck, about 100 yards, .45 long rifle. Seen nothing until she flopped off the ground and flopped all the way down the hill to me. Hell of a drag to get her out. Back then all you read was a .45 RB was not good but they did not count my hundreds of deer.

dragon813gt
05-31-2014, 11:19 AM
PA has or had a "primitive" season. Only a flintlock.
Still have it. Compound and crossbows are allowed during the season. And parts of WMU 5C have extended shotgun during that season as well. Population is almost out of hand here. I see close to five dead deer every morning on the ten mile ride to work.

44man
06-01-2014, 11:31 AM
Still have it. Compound and crossbows are allowed during the season. And parts of WMU 5C have extended shotgun during that season as well. Population is almost out of hand here. I see close to five dead deer every morning on the ten mile ride to work.
I loved the season and dedicated hunters could reduce the herd. The big problem was how many deer a guy could shoot. back then it was one a season. Archery, gun or primitive, all you could get was ONE. Might be two now but still sad. I could never get a doe tag for rifle back then, found gun clubs bought them all up and tossed them. Out of state would never get one for rifle season. I watched 80 doe walk by and could not shoot.
Sick political control. Even here in WV, we can shoot two a day before having to tag the first. If you shoot a buck you need to shoot a doe before shooting another buck.
You can buy extra tags but land owners need none and when after 65, no license is needed. My hunting is free.
There is still a stigma about shooting doe in PA today. But I know farmers in PA that shoot deer all year in their fields, they gut shoot so deer run in the woods so they don't have to remove them from the fields. Then in hunting season they complain because they can't find a deer. They could have had meat all summer.
PA is screwed up, always was. game Wardens were fear but we got to be friends with ours because they seen us cleaning trash from Game lands. They seen Ohio tags and us with plastic bags picking up after the great PA hunters. I have nothing against the game wardens, only the stupid laws they have to follow, written by liberals.

dk17hmr
06-01-2014, 01:04 PM
58 caliber, round ball, #11 cap, exposed hammer, top of the breach is milled open to expose the cap, loose black powder....technically an Inline.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/DSCF0033.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/dk17hmr/media/DSCF0033.jpg.html)

Slippery slope....

dragon813gt
06-01-2014, 01:08 PM
PA laws aren't bad yet people like to complain about them. Contrary to what people like to tell you the game commission has done a good job managing the herds and the success rates have improved. It's one buck per year, so what. Doe tags are given out easily. I'm able to get them in all the WMUs I hunt. And in the one I live in I can buy them over the counter w/ no limit. As far as out of state doe tags, sorry but residents come first. People like to complain because they can't shoot what they want when they want. The only thing I find dumb is shotgun only zones. I live on the border so depending in which side of the hill I'm on I may not be able to use a rifle.

NVScouter
06-02-2014, 10:34 AM
Holy cow SOOO much wrong and immoral here!


I loved the season and dedicated hunters could reduce the herd. The big problem was how many deer a guy could shoot. back then it was one a season. Archery, gun or primitive, all you could get was ONE. Might be two now but still sad. I could never get a doe tag for rifle back then, found gun clubs bought them all up and tossed them. Out of state would never get one for rifle season. I watched 80 doe walk by and could not shoot.
Sick political control. Even here in WV, we can shoot two a day before having to tag the first. If you shoot a buck you need to shoot a doe before shooting another buck.
You can buy extra tags but land owners need none and when after 65, no license is needed. My hunting is free.
There is still a stigma about shooting doe in PA today. But I know farmers in PA that shoot deer all year in their fields, they gut shoot so deer run in the woods so they don't have to remove them from the fields. Then in hunting season they complain because they can't find a deer. They could have had meat all summer.
PA is screwed up, always was. game Wardens were fear but we got to be friends with ours because they seen us cleaning trash from Game lands. They seen Ohio tags and us with plastic bags picking up after the great PA hunters. I have nothing against the game wardens, only the stupid laws they have to follow, written by liberals.

Honestly I think primitive should be

archery: Bow only, no lighted sites, no artificial light to include lighted nocks, fixed blade of 1.25" and 125g minimum (only because I'm not sold on mechanicals reliability). No mechanical releases, 45# minimum draw weight and a 450g minimum arrow weight minus broadhead.
Muzzleloader: Open non-lighted sites, no powder restrictions, flint/cap or 209 primer ignition, Single shot loaded only from the muzzle.

The only purpose would be limit archery to around 65y and muzzleloader to visible distance with a 20-45sec reload time. Sure lots of legal wiggle room but I'd rather have it tempered morally instead of legaly. What I'm seeing in this thread is two things:

-Stigma about does for a meat animal. I would rather see a dead doe than a sad little spike(easters 4 point) any day. Does are fun to hunt, great to eat, perfect first youth hunt, and many times you can get multiple animals. Why some states dont have doe hunts or use that resource instead of young bucks is beyond me. A wiley old doe is much harder to hunt than a young stupid buck. Most people I see that shoot spikes/forkies (4 and 6 point eastern class) are either new/meat/youth hunters. I honestly doubt that most of them would take a 70b spike over a 100lb doe.

-Why special seasons exist and the percieved infringment on rifle hunters. This thread has honestly baffled me but has changed my mind a bit. Morally I stand by my initial stance, but practicly I see no reason for special seasons. The in fighting by people that believe any restriction to how to hunt is unjust is only tempered by the folks that will hunt primative in any season. So many people dont want a fair playing field or just to walk in the woods win or lose. Add "what does primative mean?" ideas and supirority using spear or only a flintlock etc. its rediculous. I now say scrap all special seasons.


I'm a Western hunter mostly on public land. I've been stationed in the South and have seen the land lockouts, woods so thick a tree stand/feeder may be the only way to hunt, city people SWARM hunting areas blasting anything that moves, local sick of out of area hunters blocking access. Many people here think I'm being judgemental and maybe I am. If anything I'd like to take some of you out hunting my way and see if I could change your mind about what its all about.

44man
06-02-2014, 10:45 AM
PA laws aren't bad yet people like to complain about them. Contrary to what people like to tell you the game commission has done a good job managing the herds and the success rates have improved. It's one buck per year, so what. Doe tags are given out easily. I'm able to get them in all the WMUs I hunt. And in the one I live in I can buy them over the counter w/ no limit. As far as out of state doe tags, sorry but residents come first. People like to complain because they can't shoot what they want when they want. The only thing I find dumb is shotgun only zones. I live on the border so depending in which side of the hill I'm on I may not be able to use a rifle.
I like the game commission and the wardens but they are controlled by others. They work hard but what they recommend for the herd is ignored. politics enter into all of it.

Harter66
06-02-2014, 11:36 AM
Our law used to be more specific about the ML season . Its over complicated vague now . I believe it still boils down to it has to use BP/subs only,load from the muzzle and have open sights.
Personally I don't care for in-lines, but I'm no purist either. Here everything is a gamble ,tags are lottery draw and you get 1/season . It would take a century to hit some of you guys head counts,so if it allows a guy to reach a little farther to be successful it ok by me. Then again while we're home to 1 of the largest ,land wise,Nat'l forrests we have a lot more open ground than close woods. 200yd is normal during the rifle season. Spot and stock on bedded deer is the order for archery, kind of tough to do w/50yd between trees and knee deep 50ft between sage .

44man
06-02-2014, 11:49 AM
Holy cow SOOO much wrong and immoral here!
Yes, no problem with residents coming first for a doe tag. But greed was running rampant. The place I hunted had so many doe and so few bucks, I just archery or ML hunted.
It has been many years since I hunted PA and things might have changed.
Everyone must agree that the doe need reduced.
I see the same here, so many doe it is crazy, dead all over the roads too. I am not a trophy hunter, just good meat. The difference is we have good food for them here while PA forests there was none. get to farm country and it changed but then farmers were allowed to kill anytime.
Same on farms and orchards in Ohio but my farmer friends let us hunt instead of them just killing deer. They hunted with us and wanted deer in season. They got unlimited tags but for the season. I was given many tags and always invited back. But we did not shoot deer in the summer when chuck hunting. Seen farmers in PA bust every deer that came into fields all year.
The tiny deer in the forest were easier to get then a good deer on farms.
Knew a game warden in Ohio real good but politics said spotting deer was not legal. We met him once on a haul road hiding over a hump in the road. He told us to get down, car coming. He would ticket a family for turning headlights towards deer so the kids could see them. He gave his cousin a ticket for hunting fox at night when deer came over a hill and his light lit deer eyes. Fox calls can call deer too. He followed his cousin.
Don't tell me laws are fair, wardens don't write them, they are like the cop in a little town that will give a ticket for 1 MPH over the limit.
Once when going to work I got a speeding ticket on a back road. A car passed me going about 80 MPH and as he passed the cop, the cop waved to him but pulled me over for a few MPH over. We had friends in game wardens that never bothered us. They are just people. They are told what to do.
If a neighbor shoots a deer and is coming on my property I will help find it and any deer that goes through needs found. They do NOT need to ask me, get the deer. Ask to hunt is OK but a deer shot outside my property must not be lost.
Once in Ohio I shot a pheasant and it fell over a fence. I went to get it and got a ticket for going on private property. Local cop, seen me from the road. No idea about wasted game.
I have a million stories, don't tell me PA is good either.

NVScouter
06-02-2014, 12:28 PM
I agree if I was asked sure I'd allow a well mandered hunter to hunt my property. Also I'm with you if it runs on my place please go get it! If I find you out on my back property hunting and its an honest "oops" I'd probobly let you continue. Lots of people here are so jaded by people breaking game laws and tresspassing they ticket them all. I just like seeing people enjoying the outdoors.

44man
06-02-2014, 02:42 PM
The worst I seen was a truck full of orange coats with youngsters in the seat, they were road hunting private properties. I watched them drive slow and glass farms.
Then we hear shots all night during archery season and all gun season.
I bet some even write articles about how a great hunter they are.
I have to side with wardens in these cases. I love it when they set up the mechanical deer. I don't need those so called hunters. Spot and stalk or tracking, even stand hunting is good but I don't like the house up in the air with heat and blinds to hide behind. I can't stand the TV shows.
NVscouter has it right, a mature doe is harder to get a shot at then any buck. They care for young and nothing gets past them. The wrong move or noise and they are GONE.

1Shirt
06-05-2014, 09:44 PM
Like 44Man, the last time I hunted deer in Pa, will be the last time I will ever hunt in Pa. It was a sea of orange nut cases that shot at anything that moved. Stayed out just a few hours on opening day, and went home for fear of getting shot. It is a shame!
1Shirt!

dragon813gt
06-05-2014, 10:37 PM
Like 44Man, the last time I hunted deer in Pa, will be the last time I will ever hunt in Pa. It was a sea of orange nut cases that shot at anything that moved. Stayed out just a few hours on opening day, and went home for fear of getting shot. It is a shame!
1Shirt!

The whole state is not like this. I feel like I have to defend if because there is a lot of hate directed at it. If you haven't hunted here in years things have changed. You will have areas that are a sea of orange. But there are also plenty of areas where you won't see a sole. As far as farmers killing all that they see. They legally need Red Tags to do this. You will need to prove crop damage to get them. And they usually aren't unlimited. Any deer shot w/ this tag needs to be field dressed, pulled out of the field and the kill reported. The game commission collects the deer and donates them to the local food banks. You are not allowed to keep the meat on red tags. This is a goos thing as the meat goes to a good cause since most farmers just let it lie. Of course this is the legal route. And we all know that not everyone follows the law.

The biggest offenders are the Amish. They are issued black tags which are unlimited and no closed season. They legally shoot them all year long. Good thing is that they don't let the meat go to waste. But they put a severe hurting on the herds on the areas they live.

I've seen the same "shoot at anything that moves" hunter in other states so this isn't a PA problem. Unethical hunters live everywhere. As far as gun clubs buying up the tags. I don't see how this is possible because the tags are sold to individuals w/ two mail in draws. Most WMUs sell out during the first draw. It's just not possible to do this anymore. Now a lot of clubs do prevent doe hunting on their property. Their property so they can do whatever they want and it's almost always a club vote that sets the policy.

Sorry for the thread drift. Like I said I just feel that I have to set some things straight.

freebullet
06-05-2014, 11:23 PM
Any public ground within 1 hour of a reasonably large city is not a place I would visit the first part of any gun season in any state.

dragon813gt
06-06-2014, 08:12 AM
Any public ground within 1 hour of a reasonably large city is not a place I would visit the first part of any gun season in any state.

Bingo, add the popular area(s) of the state(s) that are known for hunting as well. They all have those areas. I would never go to Potter county to hunt during rifle season.

hpdrifter
06-11-2014, 07:41 PM
My take is a little different. I play within the law. Most states have long since moved away from a "Primitive weapons season" to anything goes muzzleloaders. Some states are moving to straight wall centerfire single shot rifles as “Primitive Weapons”. I think this is a mistake but if it legal my original 45/70 trapdoors and Winchester High Walls would become my rifles of choice.

I hunt with stick bow, compound bow, iron sight handgun, scoped handgun, iron sight centerfire rifle, scoped centerfire rifle, scoped slug gun and in muzzleloaders traditional sidelocks with real PB and patched round balls to smokeless powder muzzleloaders.

As long as it is legal method I cannot find fault with anyone’s hunting method. I can find fault with the laws and work to change them.

The State Legislators are the ones that make the laws. I have successfully lobbied to have the hunting laws changed three times so it can be done.

If you don’t like the law work to change it but please don’t tell me my LEGAL choice of hunting method makes you “sick”

Well, it does.

white eagle
06-11-2014, 10:20 PM
like the old saying one man's trash is anothers treasure
just because I hunt one way does not make it right or wrong
its hunting lets keep the divisions in our adversaries ranks
life is short hunt with a passion and pass it on

GunnyJohn
06-11-2014, 10:29 PM
Here in Oregon, during any muzzle loading season the rules are, only "loose" powder charges, Iron sights, open (exposed to the elements) ignition and no sabots. We can use an inline as long as all of the above apply no 209's. I use a Hawken styled .54 cal. Isn't that what makes it challenging. Much better to enjoy the hunt. Besides the meat seems to taste better when done the old school way. IMHO.

Old Scribe
06-12-2014, 12:50 AM
I've hunted for years with various lever guns- 30-30, 38-40, 44-40, 444 Marlin. Hunted a lot of bucks and killed a few. Then I started hunting with a flintlock and that's all I use any more (except for coyotes).
I guess I'm strange but it has always been the joy of the hunt, rather than get a trophy or go kill something.
I've no problem with those that choose to "hunt" with a modern inline, they should do it during a regular season not muzzleloading season. I too quit my membership in NMLRA when they promoted ads and articles on inlines.
I'll be using my flinter again this year during the regular season and enjoying the hunt!

44man
06-12-2014, 11:47 AM
I've hunted for years with various lever guns- 30-30, 38-40, 44-40, 444 Marlin. Hunted a lot of bucks and killed a few. Then I started hunting with a flintlock and that's all I use any more (except for coyotes).
I guess I'm strange but it has always been the joy of the hunt, rather than get a trophy or go kill something.
I've no problem with those that choose to "hunt" with a modern inline, they should do it during a regular season not muzzleloading season. I too quit my membership in NMLRA when they promoted ads and articles on inlines.
I'll be using my flinter again this year during the regular season and enjoying the hunt!
Why I sold my rifles and went to revolvers in gun season. Still love archery but have trouble pulling the things anymore. Still love a flinter but hate to clean guns. Sneak up to a deer or fool them into coming to you is hunting. To shoot 200 yards is not hunting, just shooting.
When you need to pull the hammer back on a revolver with a deer at 20 yards without spooking her, it is different then the videos where they "CLICK" the safety off.
Even the wrong clothing on when archery hunting will spook a deer as you draw a bow. They hear your arm in a sleeve. Once a deer is so far it can't detect you, you are a "shooter."
I love the old single action revolvers with all the clicks that CA shooters love to hear. No deer will stand for that. Rack your Freedom back and watch tails run off! I have had deer at 40 yards hear the one click from my BFR as slow as I cocked the gun. Learned to hold the trigger back and ease it forward at full cock.
Shoot deer with a flinter and you not only know the gun but can be called a real HUNTER.
I killed many deer in the flat lands of northern Ohio, never needed a 300 yard gun. Archery hunters kill pronghorns and all else with stick and string.

dakotashooter2
06-12-2014, 02:16 PM
There are a lot of issues involved. Originally primitive seasons were established to reduce the competition from hunters who use modern longer range weapons and often different tactics and in many cases to allow hunting in areas where the close proximity of dwellings mandated short range weapons for safety reasons. They were also utilized to extend hunting opportunities with less inpact on the game populations. Now we have shotguns and muzzle loaders with effective ranges (and danger) comparable to many center fire rifles and apparently the wildlife divisions are just looking the other way on the safety aspect and the success rate of "primitive weapons" is getting close to that of modern weapons. Sadly hunting has seemed to become a success at any cost sport. It's no longer about the time spent in the field but how fast one can achieve success. My wife will tell you I'm one person guilty of passing on taking game solely in order to extend my time afield. One of the newest trends seems to be long range shooting of game. I call it shooting rather than hunting because no hunting skills are actually required outside of spotting your target. And even limited shooting skills are required because technology in many cases replaces the skill required to shoot long distances. Personally I get far more satisfaction from getting spitting distance from game than popping away at something that is too far away to even have a chance of smelling, seeing or hearing me.

I'm not condemning people for their weapon choices but don't make them out to be what they are not. Face it, most modern muzzle loaders are the equivalent of using a single shot center fire rifle in such cartridges as 45-70 or 30-30. The only difference is a cartridge case and even loading time isn't significantly different.

44man
06-12-2014, 03:33 PM
There are a lot of issues involved. Originally primitive seasons were established to reduce the competition from hunters who use modern longer range weapons and often different tactics and in many cases to allow hunting in areas where the close proximity of dwellings mandated short range weapons for safety reasons. They were also utilized to extend hunting opportunities with less inpact on the game populations. Now we have shotguns and muzzle loaders with effective ranges (and danger) comparable to many center fire rifles and apparently the wildlife divisions are just looking the other way on the safety aspect and the success rate of "primitive weapons" is getting close to that of modern weapons. Sadly hunting has seemed to become a success at any cost sport. It's no longer about the time spent in the field but how fast one can achieve success. My wife will tell you I'm one person guilty of passing on taking game solely in order to extend my time afield. One of the newest trends seems to be long range shooting of game. I call it shooting rather than hunting because no hunting skills are actually required outside of spotting your target. And even limited shooting skills are required because technology in many cases replaces the skill required to shoot long distances. Personally I get far more satisfaction from getting spitting distance from game than popping away at something that is too far away to even have a chance of smelling, seeing or hearing me.

I'm not condemning people for their weapon choices but don't make them out to be what they are not. Face it, most modern muzzle loaders are the equivalent of using a single shot center fire rifle in such cartridges as 45-70 or 30-30. The only difference is a cartridge case and even loading time isn't significantly different.
Stated very well. An element missing is greed. Letting an animal walk when not sure is the true response of a sportsman. I remember sitting on stand and saying to myself that any deer showing up is DEAD no matter how far because I knew the rifle. I was out of the hunt and those rifles went down the road.
It is the same old thing that when deer are seen at 200, the first thought is to get a gun to reach them. To hunt means to get your own butt to the deer.
Friends come to hunt with 270's, etc, Guess who kills the most deer? Me with the revolver every time.

44man
06-12-2014, 04:19 PM
Greed is a factor. When you see a guy kill an animal are you jealous? Or do you help gut and drag? did you take his hand? This is so important. When someone comes to hunt with you, do you put them in the best spots? Have you ever had another hunter show up and did you give him your deer?
Yes, I have and to see a guy go to pieces and to find a friend is priceless. Your relationship with another hunter is the best thing ever.
To think you must kill before anyone else gets a shot is so wrong. It is why primitive so you have no advantage. Why do you need a 200 yard gun? Is greed seeping in?
I am a harsh old SOB. But if I have a deer down and you show up, do you want it? Tag it and take it. Point a gun at me to steal it and I will hunt you down. Just smile and ask.
The need to shoot so far is close to stealing one at gun point. You want an advantage over everyone. There might be a guy with a flinter, stalking that deer for hours but you see a need to get it first. Yes, I feel that way.
Once when pheasant hunting on public land I would boot one but he ran so I would chase the bird to get it in the air. Some @ss shot it on the ground in front of me. I never shot birds on the ground. But the greedy scum shot it out from under me. I picked it up and threw it at him with a lot of cuss words. I seen guys shoot towards others to get birds. Not nice to get sprayed with shot.
Deer season brings out the worst of the worst. Been there, seen it all, look inward and see your own thoughts once.

Bad Water Bill
06-12-2014, 08:07 PM
Yes I did buy one of those fancy Savage front stuffers.

Did I want to be restricted to using ONLY the J word stuff and loads THEY said would only work.

Would not be here if that was true.

I enjoyed finding out what powder and charge,sabot AND 45 cal HP boolit would work.

Finally got it down just where I wanted at 100 yards and have not shot it since.

It was great doing all of that work but I still think of it as a rifle not a real front feeder.

No modern rifles are allowed in my state and non resident licenses are to expensive.

It will remain another one that is there just for the shooting fun.

As far as archery goes been there and it was fun making my own footwear so I could actually FEEL what I was about to put my foot on.

Special clothing and soaps or scents??

Become a real hunter.

You will know you are there when you can wear plain clothes and stallk a buck over a 40 acre harvested corn field and watch his wiskers move because he still can not recognize or smell you.

To me that was where the sport was,not how many or how big.

Just the real challenge itself.

1911cherry
06-12-2014, 08:15 PM
Different strokes , I like shooting old build em yourself Hawken rifles , but I use Buffalo bullets, does that make me an outlaw? I also enjoy shooting the CVA inline my father gave me years ago when they were made legal. Where I'm at you can use any rifle built off a pattern patented before 1900 and the law changes every year, 35 Whelen /444 Marlin 45-70 in a handi rifle is good to go. I don't like it but I wont hate on anyone for using those rifles, its a choice- to each their own.

NVScouter
06-13-2014, 10:11 AM
Last year I hauled six elk off the mountain and a dozen antelope and deer. Only one elk was mine along with two antelope and three deer, the rest I was just there to enjoy the hunt.

I'm a mean cook and love cooking for other people so the meat is a big factor to me, and I scavenge all the cull fat they try and toss. But in the end I'm just as happy watching others hunt and shoot as if it were me. I ask nothing usually not even gas because its as much of a favor for me to be going as me to be going with them.


Dakotashooter-Spot on and a facor I missed completely. Yes bow/ML/shotgun did start for safety around certain areas and they new wizzbangs negate that safety net. Well said.

Harter66
06-13-2014, 10:43 AM
Wow ,this has taken twist. Credit is due nobody has ''your cheating becase you're shooting a rifled bbl not a smooth bore musket '' let's just go all the way I mean a primer is a primer why not just say primitive gun hunting can only be done w/match lock blunder etc buss and if you get caught w/a post 1700 style match in the field you loose your gear ? Ive never hunted over or even close to a feeder or out of a tree stand ,but I'm not going to tell you that's cheating. Frankly using the patent date design I have a rifle that would send some of you completely in to orbit. It was built in 1866 and issued in 1871 but is an in-line open breech and paper cartridge. I live in Nv wanna see a complex definition of a legal cartridge ? A pistol cartrige of 24 caliber and no shorter than the 44 Remington magmum, hmmmm so I can use a 256 Win Mag for elk. A rifle cartridge of 22 caliber w a 2'' or greater OAL and retaining 1000 ftlbs at 100yds so a 223 maxed out w/55gr spbt is ok from a 22'' bbl but a deference loaded 45-70 350gr HP (Remington factory ammo)in an 18'' ported guide gun misses the cut off at 992 ft lb. To be truely legal an 06' w/a 200gr cast boolit has to have a .400 BC and break 1900fps at the muzzle . Guess what 30-30 may or may not make the cut . Guess what ? A 45 cal PRB over 50 gr of 2 or 3 F in a 20'' ''Frontier'' would never be questioned.......nor would a Brown Bess. Tell me if you had to pack in on foot 10 miles to get to the ridge where you killed your 1st deer a half mile from the truck 30 yr ago on a lottery draw ML tag would you want to pack a 12# Bess or a 7# stainless Contender ? I wonder how many of those of you that say ''I can see his whiskers twitch after I crawled through 100yds of corn stubble'' ever set up the stalk between the bed,water and corn field......... wait your hunting in a cut corn field ? Is there any aberant corn spillage w/in 500 yd ? If so that's called baiting in Nv .

Seriously this is debating the half glass of water . Is it full or empty ? Neither it's a half glass.

44man
06-13-2014, 01:31 PM
Crazy laws, you can shoot geese over a corn field or grass but you can't put out corn. Here in WV, we can bait or put out salt but it gives no advantage at all. Can't bait bear or turkeys.
I have a feeder but put it in my yard so we see the deer. I do not hunt over it. Mulberries are coming on now and deer are in my yard, then it will be pears and apples.
I have to ask about NV, can you hunt standing corn fields or is that BAIT? How about apple trees?
I cheated in PA when archery hunting long ago. My stand was near apple trees but not all had apples every year so I picked up apples at another tree and put them under mine. Yeah, I baited. But it was, after all, an apple tree. Legal if the tree had apples but you could not put apples somewhere else. The state made salt licks and you could not shoot over the salt but you could shoot trails going to the salt.
I have not found baiting to be any advantage here. I just know the deer.
But advances in guns does not hold water for hunting. There is a reason to limit rifles in areas where a shotgun is legal. so when you make a ML as affective as a .30-06 that is not legal, where is the line drawn? Should ALL rifles then be allowed up to the .50 BMG?
Just why do you ever need a 200 yard ML? I can hit at 200 with my .54 and a RB too, only drop stops me from hunting that far.
It is the need to kill what you see and there is where some fall down.
I sit with a revolver and know if a deer is in range, I will kill it. I do see deer at a long distance but I do not need to shoot at them.
A flinter or percussion out to 100 yards works. Why do you need a scoped inline? It is because you see deer that you can't shoot at so you go buy something that can reach and that is NOT primitive.
Even compound bows or crossbows have not extended range hardly at all. Just maybe 10 to 20 yards.
I am north of 250 deer kills with ML's, mostly flinters. Explain why I need an inline? I am close to that with bows. Add in a few shotguns and rifles, I have gone over 560, lost count but revolvers have stacked a bunch. I shot one with a long bow last season but got 6 with revolvers.
Come with me in snow with a flinter to track. You will toss that inline quick. It is a from the house shooter over a planted field.
I hate the jerk in an elevated house with a high power from a rest, shooting a food plot. Put his fat butt on the ground with a flinter and just see him shoot a deer. They jump up and down like nuts over a kill. Slapping hands, etc. Such a sad end for an animal just shot, not hunted.

Bad Water Bill
06-13-2014, 04:04 PM
"I wonder how many of those of you that say ''I can see his whiskers twitch after I crawled through 100yds of corn stubble'' ever set up the stalk between the bed,water and corn field......... wait your hunting in a cut corn field ? Is there any aberant corn spillage w/in 500 yd ?"

The corn field had been harvested a year ago so baiting was not used. I saw the buck, crawled thru the barbed wire fence then proceeded to make the stalk.

The challenge for me is can I do it not how much meat can I get.

Yes I have not only gone from bed to water to feed but have posted someone else there for the shot because he did need the meat for his home.

NVScouter
06-13-2014, 05:04 PM
In NV you can hunt in a field of ______ but you cant put out ______ or its bait. This includes salt/mineral licks. I grew up in Northern Nevada and my first archery hunt was in Churchill county at 16. I could stalk to within 70 yards of deer regularly. However in that open country closing to 25-35yards defeated me. Guys that can spot and stalk mule deer in that country have my deepest respect.

Now in Utah, Texas, Kentucky, and Florida I got within 10 yards regularly and easily. Whole different ball game.

Harter66
06-13-2014, 07:34 PM
Again I'm not criticing anyones means or skills. I think the point is that its hard to compare hunting heavy wooded creeks and fence rowed fields to broken decomposed granite above the treeline and 10,000ft . I've had everything just right and been able to be very close like spitting close. Those days are few and far between out here . I also have no doubt that lots of folks can regularly sneek to Bowie range . My Dad in Utah once slapped a fawn on the honch w/a bow ......1 of the Glass Powered Bear recurves back in 73' .

Harter66
06-13-2014, 09:21 PM
The passage regarding that says ''normal agricultural activities''. So you can shoot the fields but it is at a wardens judgement if there has been a havest spill as to whether its baited. We're pretty thin on orchards too. I do not know of a fruit tree ticket but I would garantee that grounded fruit would be again wardens call. There was an incedent several yrs ago in that a group of goose hunters went through the hell because a silage truck headed for an adjacent dairy had lost by spilage some corn on the road over 500yd from their blind....ugly. Salt licks are a whole other kettle of fish due to the open range rules.... left overs from Normal Ag use apple flavored, get a ticket.

44man
06-14-2014, 10:20 AM
So the question is, when a field is planted with deer clover and a blind put up, is that "normal agricultural activity"? Was the clover planted to be turned into cattle hay?
We all know we hunt where acorns are or where deer feed or go to feed. if an oak dropped a ton of acorns in the wind, is that illegal? I don't think anyone hunts gravel pits.
See how thin and stupid the laws are? What difference standing corn or some dropped on the ground?
Since it is legal here I have had funny results with deer. A big doe will come in but stand way back while her fawn will go to the corn, even knock the feeder for more but she hangs back out of bow range. Then 20 turkeys came in and we don't have a fall season but it was fun to watch them, some at 10 yards. I wanted a camera big time.
I have no problem with baiting at all. It is the guy in a house with heat, coffee and a rest to shoot 200 yards or more that turns me off.
Planting for deer is a billion dollar industry but you get a ticket with spilled grain.
The point of primitive at the start was to give hunters using old stuff a chance without competing with rifle hunters, not to increase the harvest. It allows you being with the animals instead of seeing orange behind every tree.
When the compound came in there was a lot of ******** but it did not extend ranges enough to make a difference, in fact many spooked deer with noise.
But inlines extended ranges so is is again a competition and instead of stalking in camo, might need orange now. No problem with blaze orange though, best camo ever, just the freedom is gone.
I would be happy if ML season was made "primitive" again with only flintlocks or earlier like a match lock, legal. Might concede to cap locks. A spear legal too.

quilbilly
06-14-2014, 12:36 PM
"I would be happy if ML season was made "primitive" again with only flintlocks or earlier like a match lock, legal. Might concede to cap locks. A spear legal too."
I vote patched round ball only in muzzleloader hunts. I don't care if optics, inlines etc etc. are used - whatever floats your boat to get the round pill down range. Got to admit it would horrify the folks who believe it takes something 300 gr going 1800 fps to drop a 70# deer like some I have hunted with and occasionally laughed at as I dragged my 250# mulie back to camp shot with one 45 cal 130 gr PRB.

44man
06-14-2014, 03:59 PM
"I would be happy if ML season was made "primitive" again with only flintlocks or earlier like a match lock, legal. Might concede to cap locks. A spear legal too."
I vote patched round ball only in muzzleloader hunts. I don't care if optics, inlines etc etc. are used - whatever floats your boat to get the round pill down range. Got to admit it would horrify the folks who believe it takes something 300 gr going 1800 fps to drop a 70# deer like some I have hunted with and occasionally laughed at as I dragged my 250# mulie back to camp shot with one 45 cal 130 gr PRB.
I like you right off.

clintsfolly
06-14-2014, 09:46 PM
I just love the way some think just because I use a modern muzzle loader that I am not as good of hunter as they are! You chose what you want and I will too but we both Do Not have the right or should not want to have the right to mandate what and how we hunt as long as the law will allow it. Thank and back to your holier then thou thread. Clint

M-Tecs
06-15-2014, 01:46 AM
I just love the way some think just because I use a modern muzzle loader that I am not as good of hunter as they are! You chose what you want and I will too but we both Do Not have the right or should not want to have the right to mandate what and how we hunt as long as the law will allow it. Thank and back to your holier then thou thread. Clint

That is just the tip of the iceberg according to some on this forum. According to them anyone hunting differently than their narrow perspective of what hunting should be is not a REAL hunter, they are lazy, stupid, greedy, skill-less sickening thieves worthy of hate and contempt. They must be GODs (more like legends in their own minds) since they and only they know how and what methods other people find most rewarding.

I hunt with stick bow, compound bow, iron sight handgun,scoped/red dot handgun, iron sight centerfire rifle, scoped centerfire rifle, blackpowder cartridge rifle, scoped slug gun and in muzzleloaders traditional sidelocks with real PB and patched round balls to smokeless powder muzzleloaders. I find all very rewarding in different ways. I like the freedom of choice to hunt with any legal method.

My favorite rifle has always been a Trapdoor Springfield but I have enough respect for my fellow hunters to not look down on them if they use something other than a TD.

None of us need to hunt. We hunt because we want to. I will hunt the way I want and, while I may not approve of someone else’s methods, they are entitled to hunt with whatever legal method the want.

I don't really care what everybody else does as long as it is legal. If you don’t like the law work to change it.

TXGunNut
06-15-2014, 02:13 AM
I don't look down on another hunter because of his choice of equipment. I drive an old Ford to hunting camp, my brother gets there in a new Chevy. We drink old whiskey and make fresh meat, it's all good. Someday I'll hunt with my Hawken but for now I'll use CB's and SP in somewhat modern arms in a situation some posters may take offense to, that's OK. I don't have a thing to prove to anyone. I maintain the herd, I put meat in the freezer, and I do it well within the law.

44man
06-15-2014, 10:45 AM
No offense is taken to what you use, it is just what you enjoy. But to allow long range guns in areas where a high powered rifle can not be used in gun season because of flat land and many homes or roads does not make sense. Many areas are shotgun or bow only for safety but an inline is legal.
I hunted Ohio with a flinter because it was so much better then a shotgun so Yes, I was also different because I could shoot farther but it was still safer then an 06 in the areas.
Then the Amish would be out with rifles. What is THAT about. Legal for them but not us. There were times I would wish for a rifle but after knowing the deer and the ability to make them come to me, I lost that need.
Heart beating with a close deer is hunting and to make a deer come to you is even better. There is no thrill at 200 yards. Take a sip of coffee, set the rest and "click" off the safety, then brag about your deer. Call in an elk or moose and feel the hunt. Track deer in the snow and feel the hunt. Don't matter the gun because it is you and the animal.
So you will feel the same with a 20 yard deer with your inline as I feel with a flinter or revolver. You can get buck fever and miss. The gun itself does not make a hunter.

JSnover
06-15-2014, 10:59 AM
Sounds like the 'primitive season' has become irrelevant. May as well do away with it and go back to bow season, firearm season.

TXGunNut
06-15-2014, 11:17 AM
Sounds like the 'primitive season' has become irrelevant. May as well do away with it and go back to bow season, firearm season.

I think that's what Texas has done. I liked the idea when it was available but it wasn't popular with some folks for all the reasons stated earlier. I'll hunt with my caplock Hawken someday and you can bet it will be loaded with PRB and Holy Black....because that's the way I want it.

NVScouter
06-15-2014, 11:31 AM
That is just the tip of the iceberg according to some on this forum. According to them anyone hunting differently than their narrow perspective of what hunting should be is not a REAL hunter, they are lazy, stupid, greedy, skill-less sickening thieves worthy of hate and contempt. They must be GODs (more like legends in their own minds) since they and only they know how and what methods other people find most rewarding.

I hunt with stick bow, compound bow, iron sight handgun,scoped/red dot handgun, iron sight centerfire rifle, scoped centerfire rifle, blackpowder cartridge rifle, scoped slug gun and in muzzleloaders traditional sidelocks with real PB and patched round balls to smokeless powder muzzleloaders. I find all very rewarding in different ways. I like the freedom of choice to hunt with any legal method.

My favorite rifle has always been a Trapdoor Springfield but I have enough respect for my fellow hunters to not look down on them if they use something other than a TD.

None of us need to hunt. We hunt because we want to. I will hunt the way I want and, while I may not approve of someone else’s methods, they are entitled to hunt with whatever legal method the want.

I don't really care what everybody else does as long as it is legal. If you don’t like the law work to change it.




i find it amazing over and over that people can't understand the point of primitive season versus ALL HUNTING scenarios.

People get offended rapidly and become offensive while claiming they aren't doing anything wrong.

dragon813gt
06-15-2014, 01:07 PM
Different strokes for different folks. As long as they are abiding by the laws set by their state then I don't care. If everyone took this road it would be better for everyone. Hunters/Shooters are our own worse enemies.

M-Tecs
06-15-2014, 01:08 PM
i find it amazing over and over that people can't understand the point of primitive season versus ALL HUNTING scenarios.

People get offended rapidly and become offensive while claiming they aren't doing anything wrong.
Not offended in the least as I simple do not care what other people do as long as it is legal. I do get tired of the holier than thou my way is the only way attitude of
People get offended rapidly and become offensive while claiming they aren't doing anything wrong. &
But if you "play within the law" to give yourself an unqual advantage you can ruin the season or screw it up for everybody.

While you may not agree with it if it is legal they are not doing anything wrong (except in your mind!!!!!!!!). Same for ruining the season or screw it up for everybody.


people can't understand the point of primitive season

The point/intent/spirit of the primitive season is fluid and determined by the state legislator. A good example is Louisiana.

While I don't agree with the trend to more modern arms in some states the intent/point/spirit is pretty clear.
http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/hunting...isiana-seasons (http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/hunting/primitive-firearms-louisiana-seasons)

Effective with the 2012-2013 Louisiana hunting season, the following firearms are legal for use during the primitive firearm deer season:

1. Rifles or pistols, .44 caliber minimum, or shotguns 10 gauge or smaller, all of which must load exclusively from the muzzle or cap and ball cylinder, use black powder or approved substitute only, take ball or bullet projectile only,including saboted bullets, including primitive firearms known as “in line”primitive firearms, and

2. Single shot, breech loading rifles, .35 caliber or larger having an exposed hammer that uses metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. All of the above may be fitted with magnified scopes.

I do not live in Louisiana. If I did I would have lobbied against this change since I don’t agree but since it became law I would probably use my original Trapdoor Springfield’s loaded with real BP. Some others may use a scope sighted TC Encore in 375 H&H Mag.. I simply don’t care nor do I believe what they legally use can ruin my season or screw it up for everybody.

NVScouter
06-15-2014, 03:08 PM
What you call holier than thou are what I call my ethics. Yours and mine differ. I feel there should be less law and more hunter ethics and fair chase. I believe that should be taught and perpetuated among the hunting community. Community thinking is the only way to keep it going.

You you seem to think a law will solve all these issues and a guy in a suit will protect it. My faith in politicians, laws, and courts is much lower than yours. Great example is that non-primitive LA season. People lobbied and played with the law until it's a joke and pointless.

If that's what you want or what they evolve into there is no point in having them.

M-Tecs
06-15-2014, 05:03 PM
You are entitled to your ethics the same as I am entitled to mine. Put ten hunters in a room and asked them what their personal ethics are you will get 10 different answers. As long as they are legal none of them are right or wrong.

I personally will not hunt over water holes or bait as my personal ethics are that is not fair chase so I don’t use these methods but I also have no problem with those that do.

In my home state I was one of five people that testified to the state legislators to allow handguns during the regular firearms season. First & second year I used Colt 1873 45LC fixed sight revolver. Didn’t bother me in the least that 99% of the other hunter used scoped highpower rifles. Same for when I used an original TD with black for Antelope.

As I stated earlier I also lobbied to prevent in-lines but I was on the losing side so in-lines using smokeless are now legal. Since I like variety I now have one. I have only taken two deer with it but the experience was no less rewarding than the deer I have taken with bow, flintlock or caplock rifles. I just finished building a new caplock so that will be used on my next muzzleloading deer hunt.

For deer and antelope I have filled every tag since 1971. Using stick bows, compounds, a variety of muzzleloaders including smoothbore flintlock trade guns has not increased the challenge to the point that I can’t fill my tags.

TXGunNutstated it best
My preferences and rules only apply to me, they're legal and they make me happy. What makes me even happier is seeing other folks out enjoying themselves too.

As long as it’s legal and it makes you happy go for it. That is the real difference between your view and mine. You want to apply your “ethics”to everyone else. To do that you need to work with the state legislators.

Screwbolts
06-16-2014, 06:05 AM
Very simple IMHO , divide and conquer. divide the group so infighting starts then take away some of mans freedoms, not all will be upset. This kind of thread and discussion is IMHO of no value to any one. It just entertains the ones that love to stir pots and agitate. "If it breaks no bones nor steals my money then why do I care?" Ken Hall

44man
06-16-2014, 09:33 AM
Exactly, using a modern gun does not insure success and from what I see in gun seasons, neither does a magnum. What I really see are more losses.
One year a neighbor needed help to find a nice buck. We went to his stand and I asked "where was the deer?" He showed me and I said, "you can't shoot your magnum rifle through that stuff", I could not see his stand at all. Almost no blood and it quit in 100 yards. I knew where the deer was going so we split up and worked that way. He found it before my fence, went near 1/2 mile. He had a hole in the hams you could stick your head in. Mangled meat seals faster then a cut so there was no trail.
It was not the first time I had to help him find deer either. His 7mm mag should be traded for a 30-30.
My .475 puts most deer on the ground before recoil blocks my view and the only other gun I have that does that is my .54 Hawken with a RB.

NVScouter
06-16-2014, 02:00 PM
You are entitled to your ethics the same as I am entitled to mine. Put ten hunters in a room and asked them what their personal ethics are you will get 10 different answers. As long as they are legal none of them are right or wrong.

I personally will not hunt over water holes or bait as my personal ethics are that is not fair chase so I don’t use these methods but I also have no problem with those that do.



Very well said.

Since ethics are comunity thinking talking about them and sharing them is the value. Applying ethics should be important and failing to share them means losing them. Sometimes this is a good thing,then a new ethic is moulded. Lots of things that were common practice are barbaric history. Then again most persons in the United States cant write in cursive with college educations while a 14 year old 100 years ago created beautiful letters home.

The group will deside what is worth losing and I would like to perserve primative seasons, fair chase, and good sportsmanship. An ethical hunter will be just that no matter what, but the super gadets open the door to less practice, less skill, and less time invested.

44man
06-17-2014, 08:56 AM
One thing I see is the magnum gun users shoot at a deer and if it doesn't fall, they think they missed, never even go look, just wait for another deer.
Last season my friend seen a deer come in, nice little buck. He could not shoot because of brush and noticed the deer never came out. When I got there we went and found the deer. It came from a neighbors property so we waited and nobody was looking for the deer.
I don't like the neighbors ethics with deer so when he never showed up I told my friend to take the deer, the neighbor would let it rot. I find too many dead deer to feel bad about it.
Once the trigger is pulled, you never give up to find an animal.
If he would have made an attempt to find it, we would have gutted it and helped him drag it home. He sat waiting for another deer, never left his stand to see what he did.