experiencing leading

[aviator41]

I've been having a great time casting bullets! 45's, 357's, even some 50 caliber REAL bullets.

All are lubed with Alox - but the 38's are not performing as well as I had hoped. After 50 or so rounds, each of my new vaquero's have leading on the face of the chambers, and about 1/4 up the barrel. It's too the point that a brass brush worked repeatedly through the bore will yield long thin strips of lead from the lands of the rifling.

Rounds are 125gr, wheel weight lead, tumbled with Lee Liquid Alox, then sized and tumbled a second time. It's then placed in front of a 2.8-3.0 grain of Titegroup and lit using a Federal primer. Accuracy is great! even up to 150 rounds or so (we ran out of loads). but the pistols are leaded up, make no mistake.

So what am I doing wrong? I'm pushing these bullets at a very mild 780 fps, plinkin' steel in preperation for CAS competition. Do I need to be lubing these up differently?

I always thought the LLA would be plenty of lube at these low veolcities.

[blikseme300]

What is the size of the boolits? A micrometer is best for measuring accurately.

[aviator41]

bullets are being sized to .357 based on caliper results from 10 boolits fresh out of the sizer.

[Calamity Jake]

Check the chamber throats on your vaquero's, I'll bet there small, if your boolit is .358 then the throats need
to be .358 or .359 and slug the bore also.
Check dia. of a sized boolit, seat it in a case then pull it and check dia. again the cases could be reducing the dia.

"bullets are being sized to .357 based on caliper results from 10 boolits fresh out of the sizer."

Go to a .358 sizer you can lap the .357 out

[aviator41]

Throat is .3585 at the face. The bullets are .3568 after being seated and removed. I'm using a 357 sizer. Seems like it's all correct.

I'm only using the slightest trace of llox, do I need to be using more?

[tomme boy]

What is the measurement on the barrel? Are you thinning the alox any? I never could get it to work for me. I bought a lubesizer.

[aviator41]

This is a 5.5 inch barrel. Using Lalox straight, no thinning.

I think a lubresizer or a maybe pan lubing is in my near future.

[Calamity Jake]

"The bullets are .3568 after being seated and removed."

There's part of the problem right there, get a bigger expander. Put a 3rd coat of LLA on em or go to pan lubing.

[MtGun44]

Caliper is not an accurate tool in this range, only +/- 0.001"

You need a micrometer that reads .0001" to accurately measure this
level. Enco Tools has Fowler brand mics - normally about $28-$35.

Bill

[tazman]

Throat is .3585 at the face. The bullets are .3568 after being seated and removed. I'm using a 357 sizer. Seems like it's all correct.

I'm only using the slightest trace of llox, do I need to be using more?

Your boolits are smaller than the throats, hence the leading on the cylinder face and first part of the barrel. Gas cutting as the boolit leaves the chamber. Size the boolits to a light press fit of the chamber throats, in your case at least .358-.359. The boolit needs to seal the chamber as it exits.

[Hickok]

I agree with the boolits being undersize. Before I would do anything else I would shoot the boolits unsized or simply sized to .358".

Tumble lube some unsized right out of the mold and see what happens. Take an unsized boolit and try and push it through one of the chambers in the cylinder. It needs to be a tight fit.

As Mtgn said, calipers are'nt precise enough for measuring "frog hair!":lol:

[bedbugbilly]

Hikok took the words right out of my mouth. Try some "as cast". I have 7 38s that I shout - one is a NV in 5 1/2". I cast from a Lee SWC-TL, 150 gr RN, and old Lyman 160 gr WC - sized to .358 and an old Winchester mold - 160 gr RN. The only one I really sie is the WC as it drops at about .359 - .360.

I tumble lube all of mine - conventional lube groove and TL design - put 'em in a plastic bowl, heat 'em with a hair dryer - add a little paste wax and swirl good. I follow up with a "little" (it doesn't take much) Alox. After Tl, I put 'em out on wax paper and allow to dry overnight. I have no problems with "stickiness" from the Alox nor from leading in a ny of my 38s. I load "milder" loads for planing and usually use BE. I am currently casting my boolits from "range lead" but I'm really not that fussy on having specific alloys - all depends on what I have on hand.

Before the expense of a fancy lumb machine - do some experimenting - shot some un-sized and try some different TL methods. I have a feeling that once you start using a larger diameter boo let, your leading will go away for the most part.

The only thing I use a .357 sizer for is my 9mm. I cast the .Lee 356-120-TL. They drop at .358 out of my mold. I size 'em to .357 for my 9mm. I shoot 'em "as cast" in my 38s - and they make a good accurate load for me over BE.

If you are using a Lee push through sizer - all I do before sizing my cast boolits is to put them in a plastic bowl, heat 'em up with the hair dryer and swirl them around to coat 'em - then set them out on wax paper. They are good to go when cooled down and the paste wax gives enough lube for the push through sizer and doesn't make a mess. I save the Alox for the final lube operation.

YMMV - but experiment and change one thing at a time and see what the results are. You are pushing them at a slower speed so I would first look at the boo lit diameter - then go from there.

Good luck!

[Dan Cash]

.........
I'm only using the slightest trace of llox, do I need to be using more?

Probably; or better, use a different kind of lube unless your bullets are Tumble lube design. I never had any good results with the Tumble lube and liquid alox treatment.

[44man]

My guns lead with Alox. I use a good lube on TL boolits.
Try water dropping the boolits too. Fit is needed but still should not give that much leading.

[aviator41]

Okay, pulling out the micrometer, I have a size of .3572 on a sized bullet. I am not where I can get to the pistol this morning (at work), but I do believe the caliper based numbers to be correct above. The bullet in the picture is sized and lubed, right out of the 'ready' bucket.

101941

I initially tried loading 10 bullets without sizing, making sure to get the mold to temp to get good bullets. they were then water dropped, then tumble lubed with LLA and allowed to dry overnight. The next evening they were ready to load, so I loaded them up behind the same light charge mentioned above, but only two of them would fit into the cylinder. the others were oversized and would not chamber. The cases were visibly bulged where the bullets were seated. At the moment I don't have an un-sized bullet to measure, but will this evening as I plan on re-casting a few rounds to get some good dimensions.

These bullets are being dropped from a 358-125-RF 6 cavity Lee mold that was smoked and seasonsed according to Lee's directions. It's NOT a microgroove bullet, but based on reading and Lees recommendation, I used LLA. It sounds like I need to start pan lubing. Something tells me that pan lubing 1,000 bullets at a time is going to be quite the chore!

I can say that I drop 230gr RN's using the TL452-230-2R 6 cavity mold with great success and zero leading using the same procedure then running them through my 1911. But that's a different thread.

[aviator41]

Check the chamber throats on your vaquero's, I'll bet there small, if your boolit is .358 then the throats need
to be .358 or .359 and slug the bore also.
Check dia. of a sized boolit, seat it in a case then pull it and check dia. again the cases could be reducing the dia.

"bullets are being sized to .357 based on caliper results from 10 boolits fresh out of the sizer."

Go to a .358 sizer you can lap the .357 out

Jake, I plan on slugging the bores this weekend. My hope was to have enough ammo put together for this weekends match. Flat Top Okie is going to get me set up with everything I'm missing, but if these bullets are leading my vaqueros, I don't want to run them through his rifle. I know I'm running out of time, but I'm trying to be as prepared as I can!

[Bullshop Junior]

Your issue is probably two things that I would checks out.

Undersized is a possibility, a lot of revolvers need honing and reaming to get proper sized bullets to fit.

Try a softer alloy. That's right. Softer. Water dropping hardens. Not always the best thing. At that velocity softer is better. Pure lead would probably work, but I like to add a little tin, like maybe 20-1. What you want to happen is the bullet to swell up to fit the cylinder throats after leaving the case to form a good seal. Softer alloy allows this to happen at the lower pressure you are shooting at.

Alox tumble lube is junk. Get a good lube, and either pan lube, or break down and buy a lubrisizer.

[Calamity Jake]

I plan on being there for the shoot Sat. if I don't have to go out to western Okla. to help my FIL work calves.
I need the practice for Landrun.

[aviator41]

Okay, so here's the question. I have, at last count, about 500 rounds of cast and sized boolits as described above loaded and ready to go.

Do I run them and resign myself to dealing with the extra cleaning of the lead, do I break them down and re-cast, re-size, and reload? do I try and dip the boolits in heated alox without without completely breaking them down and hope that helps some?

These pistols will never see jacketed rounds - in fact they will never see factory rounds of any type - so I am not worried about added pressures when switching to a copper clad projectile.

Accuracy was good through our last session. They're just dang messy.

[tazman]

There is a thread on the site where a shooter had a problem similar to yours and got better results by dipping the nose of as loaded cartridge in liquified LLA. He said it improved his accuracy and stopped the leading he encountered with some slightly undersized boolits. If you are short of time it might be worth a try.

I get good accuracy and no leading with LLA lube boolits exactly like yours sized to .357 BUT my barrel slugs at .357 and so do the throats on my cylinder. My pistol is a bit of an oddball in this.

[detox]

You can reduce lead splatter on face of cylinder by sizing your bullets larger. I recut and polished my barrel forcing cone (slightly larger) to 5 degrees and this helped alot also.

Tom at Accurate moulds recommends Gas Checks for all newbies.

[aviator41]

Can't use gas checks for CAS shooting.

I have a 358 sizer on the way. One step at a time, troubleshooting and this seems to be the logical first step

I'm not ready to give up on LAL just yet and would prefer not to have to have the pistols reamed right now due to budget constraints.

[detox]

Ask the CAS guys what they do to completely elliminate leading in the .357 Magnum Vaqueero

[bstone5]

A lot of the Cow Boy Action shooters in the Houston area are powder coating the bullets, they shoot the bullets without any lube after they are powder coated.

The bullets still need to fit the barrel.

[aviator41]

Finally got a chance to throw some more boolits. Molds are throwing .359 - .360

[tazman]

Slug your barrel next. Then size the boolits 1-2 thousandths larger than the groove diameter. Most will work at .358 but not all.
Also you should measure the throat diameter on your cylinder. The boolits need to be a tight fit there as well but not a hard press fit. If you can push them through with a little resistance you should be in good shape. They should not just fall through.

[detox]

Fine 0000 steel wool wrapped around bronze bore brush will slightly polish rough spots in barrel and remove lead quickly. Constipate more on barrel's forcing cone area during polishing. Kroil penetrating oil works verygood as solvent.

Lyman's Moly lube will help also.

I have shot bullets .002 oversize without problem. The larger size will prevent gas cutting, which is major cause of lead splatter on cylinder face. Shoot bullets as cast without sizing.

[tazman]

Constipate on the forcing cone?
That sounds like a personal problem somehow.

[aviator41]

Okay, so here is where I am at:

Cylinder throats:

3570
3565
3570
3570
3565
3570

These are measured with a caliper since I don't have a micrometer small enough to measure this small of a hole.

the barrel slugged at .3563 from muzzle to cone.

Seems to be a bit of a quandry, so I did it a second time and got the same results.

So, I think the cylinder needs to be reemed for concentricity, but what do I do about the barrel? Seems like it's awful tight at the forcing cone end.

[detox]

Those measurements look good. Sounds like your bullets were sized too small to begin with. Larger will help for sure. You will get far less leading.

Constipate on forcing cone area when polishing.

[aviator41]

Okay, so a jump up to a 358 sizer and a little more liberal coating of LAL after sizing seems to have solved the problem. We shot several hundred rounds of this ammo this weekend through the two Vaqueros and experienced zero leading.

Of course, these are light cowboy loads, but that's all that will ever be shot out of these pistols, unless the zombies hit.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Okay, so here's the question. I have, at last count, about 500 rounds of cast and sized boolits as described above loaded and ready to go.

Do I run them and resign myself to dealing with the extra cleaning of the lead, do I break them down and re-cast, re-size, and reload? do I try and dip the boolits in heated alox without without completely breaking them down and hope that helps some?

These pistols will never see jacketed rounds - in fact they will never see factory rounds of any type - so I am not worried about added pressures when switching to a copper clad projectile.

Accuracy was good through our last session. They're just dang messy.


Okay, so a jump up to a 308 sizer and a little more liberal coating of LAL after sizing seems to have solved the problem. We shot several hundred grounds of this ammo this weekend through the two vaqueros and experienced zero leading.

Of course, these are light cowboy loads, but that's all that will ever be shot out of these pistols, unless the zombies hit.

Glad you solved the lead fouling issue.
in regards to the 500 already loaded, No need to pull them apart.
I'd shoot them, after about 50 to 100 rounds or when ever the lead fouling starts to build up, then shoot a dozen of the new .358 (I assume you meant .358 when you typed .308)
loads, that will clean the lead fouling out the barrel. Obviously check it, just to be sure. I've done this successfully before.
Good Luck

['74 sharps]

Alox works great in my 38's and 357's with a very soft alloy in a standard lube groove bullet shot as cast without sizing. Before casting my own and buying "hard cast" bullets with that problematic plastic lube, leading was a big problem.

[aviator41]

Glad you solved the lead fouling issue.
in regards to the 500 already loaded, No need to pull them apart.
I'd shoot them, after about 50 to 100 rounds or when ever the lead fouling starts to build up, then shoot a dozen of the new .358 (I assume you meant .358 when you typed .308)
loads, that will clean the lead fouling out the barrel. Obviously check it, just to be sure. I've done this successfully before.
Good Luck

Yes, 358. I've corrected the original post. Thank you for catching that!

In regards to the already loaded, but small ammo. That's exactly what I'm doing. I don't mind cleaning the pistols more often.

[aviator41]

Just an update to those that might stumble onto the thread. I contacted Lee to find out why the mold is throwing oversize bullets. They sent out a replacement immediately. The new mold throws .358 exactly after a small tweak of the lead formula. I've thrown about a thousand boolits from the new mold and shot about 400 of them (with a thin coating of LLA) with zero leading issues. I'm running them through the revolvers and a lever action rifle with great success!

[Calamity Jake]

Did you make it to Landrun?

We had a great time, 347 shooters for 3 days. I shot 8 of the 12 stages clean.

[blikseme300]

Aviator41,

Glad you have found a recipe that works. Very satisfying to get things working out as I'm sure you have found.

A suggestion for something you might try. Look into 45-45-10 lube. It is less messy and works well in rifle and pistol. Even though I have 5 Star sizers I use 45-45-10 for my Ruger SBH's in .357 and .44Mag as well as my 30-30's using RD TL designed boolits.