How fast

[lunicy]

How fast can you push lead? How hard must it be. I want to cast lead for my rifles, but dunno where to start. I cast for the handguns and got that all figured out. But the rifles move a little quicker. Thanks.

[Shiloh]

How fast can you push lead? How hard must it be. I want to cast lead for my rifles, but dunno where to start. I cast for the handguns and got that all figured out. But the rifles move a little quicker. Thanks.

See this post started Yesterday.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=23749

Shiloh

[454PB]

I've seen claims of 3000 fps. My best efforts have topped out at 2500 fps using linotype and gas checks.

[mainiac]

Before winter set in here big time, I was shooting a 22 hornet with air-cooled WW and got up to around 2700 f.p.s., with no leading,,and exceptiple accuracy.

[longbow]

A good article for you to read with the exception of the yield strength of lead calculations and comments which are incorrect. The number that comes out of that formula is the recommended chamber pressure - not the yield strength of lead. In fact the recommendation I have seen most and believe to be a good guideline is that the chamber pressure should be between 3 and 5 times the ultimate strength of the alloy. Anyway, still a good read and he obviously got the desired results.

http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/guns/category16/9.html

In principle a longer slower powder burn should give a higher velocity with less boolit yield or distortion than a fast powder with rapid pressure spike. There are of course many "practical" considerations such as bullet/barrel fit, rifling quality and surface finish, rifling twist rate, gas check or plain base boolits, alloy hardness, lubricant, etc.

There are several members here who have posted good results with cast boolits at high velocity as well. I'm sure you will get good responses and advice, and you could do a "search" as well.

Longbow

[lunicy]

I am wanting to shoot my 30-06 and my ar. I've read of people shooting lead through their ar. I wouldn't mind. I just want some more info on it before I commit to doing it.

[Larry Gibson]

How fast you can push cst bullets is going to depend on what you want; the best accuracy, "acceptable" accuracy or just speed. Which are you interested in?

Larry Gibson

[Shiloh]

I am wanting to shoot my 30-06 and my ar. I've read of people shooting lead through their ar. I wouldn't mind. I just want some more info on it before I commit to doing it.

My best accuracy (So Far) has come at around 1750 fps. from an '03 Springfield.
I've run them as fast as 2200 but the groups open up and I have more flyers.

Shiloh :castmine:

[405]

I've been shooting and reloading and experimenting with this stuff for a long time. There seems to be a higher percentage of experienced CB shooters on this site than any other I visit. Tons of first hand info to be gleaned here. But, the best teacher in the end is your own tweaking and testing. Keep good records and approach this stuff in a half way organized fashion- taking all the good info offered then apply cautiously.

Over time and thru many stupid attempts I've learned and continue to learn. One such lesson took a long time but finally sunk in. Over simplified but probably the way to look at it....velocity is just a by-product of pressure applied over a limited amount of time. I finally learned to think in terms of pressure first then velocity second after years of thinking about it in the reverse- particularly when first learning on high powered rifles and 100 BHN bullets and the wow factor of high velocity. When dealing with lead and lead alloys, pressure is the limiting factor. I think a previous post or two referred to writings about the ultimate strength or yield strength of a lead/alloy bullet. Those studies and theories have to do with pressure vs strength of bullet. Richard Lee in his reloading manual also addresses this. I've finally come to think that that is the correct approach to this lead bullet shooting.

There is no reason to believe that it is not possible to shoot a lead alloy and/or heat treated gas-checked bullet with a very high BHN of 25-30+ at velocities well exceeding 3000 fps and still retain some order of accuracy. I'm not sure what is gained by doing it tho. For hunting purposes there is very little difference in performance between a super hard cast bullet and a hard core, full jacketed penetrating bullet except that the cast bullet may be brittle. For economical target shooting and for ease of wear and tear on both gun and shooter nothing beats a much lower pressure/lower velocity softer bullet. For hunting there is wisdom in using a softer cast or swaged bullet. Matthews swore by that theory.

Without a doubt the most accurate lead bullet guns I shoot are Sharps in 45-70 and 45-110. The most accurate loads are FF blackpowder under pure lead swaged paper patched bullets. The 45-70 mv is something like 1150fps and the 45-110 about 1350fps. The most accurate guns I shoot at high velocity (2500 -3200+ fps) are high powered rifles using regular match, jacketed bullets and regular smokeless powder.

I guess bottom line is experiment for your objectives and try to match the BHN to the pressure of the load. Velocity follows pressure :)

[Buckshot]

..............There can be several things that determine how fast you can go with a cast lead slug.

http://www.fototime.com/51033A5247B82E1/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/D3A7BD464EE81B6/standard.jpg

The targets on the left were shot with the rifle on the right. The load was the RCBS 7mm-168 (18 bhn, TL and then lube-sized .285") @ 172grs over a casefull of WC860 and WC872. The velocity and ES is written on the target. The rifle next to the targets did the shooting. A M1908 Brazilian Mauser. As longbow mentioned:

"In principle a longer slower powder burn should give a higher velocity with less boolit yield or distortion than a fast powder with rapid pressure spike."

Both these surplus powders are about as slow as chopped notebook paper. WC860 is a 50 cal powder and WC872 is for 20mm cannons.

http://www.fototime.com/F3E012F96D480D9/standard.jpg

These targets were fired with the same load but used the Lyman 150gr Loverin. The rifle was a 1897 Remington rolling block. Velocity was a tad higher then with the Mauser. All the targets were shot at 50 yards. Both rifles are box stock. Sights, trigger, stock etc were exactly as they were born with :-) I've never tried them at 100 yards. Undoubtedly they'd be larger and part of that would be the issue sights and trigger.

..........................Buckshot

[lunicy]

To be honest, I would rather have accuracy rather than speed. I was just worried that you couldn't shoot lead out of a rifle at any speed to be accurate. If I can shoot my 30-06 at any speed with accuracy, I'd be happy. I guess I'm looking for an accurate load without leading the barrel up to bad. I don't mind cleaning my rifle, I just don't want to clean it every 3 rounds :)

I should say I want an accurate load with lead.

[Bass Ackward]

To be honest, I would rather have accuracy rather than speed. I was just worried that you couldn't shoot lead out of a rifle at any speed to be accurate.


Oh man. Are your fears unfounded.

You can search for time tested loads all over this site. The search bar is at the top of the page, three places from the right.

Pick a design that is common today and then go from there as you gain confidence. Bullet fit is going to determine how well you do in the accuracy department. I would recommend either the 311291 or the RCBS 180 to start. It would help if you slug your throat too. Just try the search function for those topics.

[26Charlie]

Lunicy, Looks to me like you could use some basic cast bullet info.. You can buy cast bullets, but if you want to cast your own, here's the basics -
You need a mould and a pot - bottom-pour pot is nice, both available from Lee's. Get some wheelweights or range scrap and cast some bullets.
There is a press-like tool called a sizer-lubricator (Lyman or RCBS), or there is a push-through die (also from Lee) to bring the bullets all to uniform size and put lube in the grooves. The sizing isn't actually necessary, but the lube is, even if you just wipe it on by hand. Bought bullets come lubed.
You need to chamfer case mouths or flare them with an expanding die (again, Lee or Lyman) to keep from shaving the bullets when you seat them.
Powder charge will depend on speed of the powder you have - for .30-'06 fast pistol or shotgun powder like 700-X or UNIQUE about 8.0 gr., medium speed rifle powder like 4198 or 3031 about 22 gr., slow powders like 4895 or 4320 about 38 gr., ultra slow powder like 4831 about 50 gr. - pick your powder and look up a load for it, starting at what is recommended and then working up or down, as you would do for jacketed bullets.
When you seat the bullets in the case start by seating so they function through the magazine. Then, close the bolt gently so see if the round chambers hard - if it does, see what marks are being made on the bullet by the barrel, and seat a little deeper until it chambers easily; you want it snug but you don't want it tight because you will get a mess if you try to extract a loaded round and the bullet sticks in the throat and dumps your action full of powder.

Thats the basics. Here are some further remarks -
Gas checks - these are little copper cups put on the base of the bullets to protect them from the powder explosion, and they give increased accuracy at heavier charges than plain-base bullets can stand. The bullet has to be designed for them with a rebate at the base. A gas-check bullet can be fired without the gas check with a suitable charge for a plain-base bullet. A sizer-lubricator or a push-through sizing die is generally needed to use GC bullets, because they press or crimp on the bullet base.
Bullet size - its nice to know your barrel/throat diameter, but not too many people know how to find it out. You then size your bullets to a thousandth or two over barrel diameter "for best accuracy." But - lead bullets squeeze through a rifle bore like a plug of putty, compared to a hard jacketed bullet, and size isn't too critical - many shoot them as cast with fine results. What generally destroys accuracy is gas blow-by, either from too high a pressure with a plain-base bullet or an undersized bullet.
Primer - use what you've got, unless you get hang-fires, then you have to rethink your powder charge and/or go to a hotter primer. Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers are the hottest I know.
Lube - required to prevent leading of the barrel. Commercial lubes are available, or I use a mix of 1/3 beeswax and 2/3 beef tallow. Lee has a liquid lube called a "tumble lube", you just squirt a little in a box with the bullets and tumble, then let the bullets dry awhile.

[lunicy]

Thanks for the lesson Charlie. I cast for my handguns already. Most of your info was just a refresher for me. I just wanted to know what I can and can't do with lead reguarding my rifles.

[VTDW]

I am with lunicy on this. I am soon to try some top end loads for my .308MX with cast boolits at 23 Bnh and 28 Bnh. I want to try and get velocity and accuracy and understand I cannot get factory ammo velocities with cast, or I don't think I can. I shoot hawgs behind the ear in the neck and deer heart shots. I think this new levergun Marlin has come out with is the bomb and with the Hornady factory stuff it is amazingly accurate. I wanna do the very best I can with cast 165gr Ranch Dog boolits. The forumla for pressure to obturate the boolit should be my friend. If I do not succeed, oh well, I'll start reducing pressure until the rifle shoots these boolits well.

I appreciate you folks taking the time to explain all this.

Dave

[Larry Gibson]

To be honest, I would rather have accuracy rather than speed. I was just worried that you couldn't shoot lead out of a rifle at any speed to be accurate. If I can shoot my 30-06 at any speed with accuracy, I'd be happy. I guess I'm looking for an accurate load without leading the barrel up to bad. I don't mind cleaning my rifle, I just don't want to clean it every 3 rounds :)

I should say I want an accurate load with lead.


Your best accuracy then will be between 1700 and 1850 fps, perhaps into 1900s if you do everthing right. That's with using a medium or slow burning powder.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

VTDW

What is the twist of your Marlin 308MX. Pressure is only part of the equation. It's an important part during accelleration, i.e. how fast the time/pressure curve is. However it is RPM at higher velocity once the bullet leaves the barrel that lessons accuracy. There is a threshold of 125-140,000 RPM that once the bullet goes beyond that accuracy is lessoned.

Larry Gibson

[VTDW]

Thanks Larry. This rifle has a 1:10 twist, a 22" barrel and is a legitimate 40,000+ psi rifle. Is there a formula for me to know and work with?

Tnx,

Dave

[VTDW]

bump once