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bearcove
04-09-2014, 12:54 AM
I am going to try one.

Already have molds for 35whelan 358009 and some pp molds and other molds. It seems to be a equal to the 375h/h but 35 cal

Mk42gunner
04-09-2014, 01:31 AM
I have been gathering the parts and tools necessary to build one for the past few years, myself. I just need to decide which .35 Whelen gets its chamber reamed out.

It has gone more towards the back burner since I found I like messing with the smaller caliber rounds better here lately.

I believe the .358 Norma Mag would be a very good cartridge for an everything larger than whitetail rifle.

Robert

376Steyr
04-09-2014, 12:59 PM
Only downside I can see is the lack of factory ammo at the local hardware store during a hunting trip. Anything the .338 Win can do, the .358 Norma can do better. I know if one ever crosses my path, I will jump on it.

Mk42gunner
04-09-2014, 11:32 PM
I was at an estate auction a couple of weeks ago and there were five or six boxes of factory unprimed virgin .358 Norma Magnum brass there.

The sad thing is my back got to hurting too much to stay and buy it.

I do have 101 rounds of milsurp .300 Win Mag brass to convert when I get my rifle finished though. It makes dandy .358 brass, I tried it. I also have some virgin .338 brass that could be used in a pinch; but I really don't like necking up that small a diameter, too easy for someone to just read the headstamp and stick it in a .338.

I think the 101 rounds of .300 Win Mag will be sufficient for several years.

Robert

Ben
04-10-2014, 12:42 AM
I don't want to rain on anyone's party, but................

I have little doubts of the 358 Norma Mag's power with jacketed rounds. Like has been said already, the round is roughly equivalent to the 375 H & H.

However when comparing the available .35 cal cartridge cases available to the reloader , I can think of MANY that are much better suited to cast bullets than the 358 Norma Mag, such as the 35 Rem., the 358 Win., and the 35 Whelen. Even the Whelen is on the edge of being too large in internal cast capacity for the .35 cal. cast bullet. The 358 Win. may be just about ideal as far as case capacity for cast bullet applications.

Just my opinion, not trying to dampen anyone's interest in a new rifle.

Ben

Nobade
04-10-2014, 07:53 AM
I'll throw a bit more rain on this...

Look at the dimensions of those Norma cartridges compared to Winchester ones. For all intents and purposes a 358 Norma is the same thing as a necked up 338 Win Mag. Except it isn't. The dimensions of the Norma brass and the Norma chamber is slightly different, as is the headspace dimension. If you have a Norma chambered rifle you need Norma brass to use in it for everything to fit properly. If you build a 35 X 338 Win Mag, you can use any available 2.5 inch or longer belted magnum brass and not have to buy the special Norma cases. Something to keep in mind....

-Nobade

nekshot
04-10-2014, 08:17 AM
years ago I drooled and slobbered over the thoughts of having many of these odd ball magnums just for the nuts of it. After I looked at all the extra money needed to mess with them and got a good nights rest the feeling went away! But if it is what you want go for it and I can think of a few others while your at it!

Mk42gunner
04-10-2014, 04:15 PM
I don't want to rain on anyone's party, but................

I have little doubts of the 358 Norma Mag's power with jacketed rounds. Like has been said already, the round is roughly equivalent to the 375 H & H.

However when comparing the available .35 cal cartridge cases available to the reloader , I can think of MANY that are much better suited to cast bullets than the 358 Norma Mag, such as the 35 Rem., the 358 Win., and the 35 Whelen. Even the Whelen is on the edge of being too large in internal cast capacity for the .35 cal. cast bullet. The 358 Win. may be just about ideal as far as case capacity for cast bullet applications.

Just my opinion, not trying to dampen anyone's interest in a new rifle.

Ben

Ben you are absolutely right, the .358 Norma is way to big to use loaded to its potential as a cast bullet round. So is the Whelen, I believe. When I built my first Whelen, I was not into casting for rifles; if I had been it would probably have been a .358 Winchester.

What can I say, I had wanted a .35 Whelen since I read an article by Jack O'Connor (I think) praising it when I was a kid.

My plans for the Norma were to use a 250 grain Nosler Partition as a long range elk rifle; but since my best friend moved from Colorado, and my physical condition has gone downhill, the project has moved ever farther towards the maybe someday pile.

My .35 caliber cast boolit shooting is being handled these days by a Marlin 336A in .35 Remington, but really for targets the little .357 mag carbines do fine.

I still like oddball or outside the norm cartridges, but the .25-20 or .22 Hornet are a lot easier to shoot a couple of hundred in an afternoon than any rifle cartridge beginning with .35.

Robert

onceabull
04-10-2014, 05:07 PM
A 358 Norma Mag. or a 358 STA spent a long time near the top of my bucket list,settled for the Norma after shooting one belonging to another member here..Nothing but jacketed downrange from mine yet,but that will change,as original intent was to shoot cast,specifically from 285 gr to "whatever"heavier I can come up with..I had/have a # of 35 Whelen rifles and still am long 5 358 W. in bolt,lever,and slide action set ups... all the smaller cartridges don't go where I want to be with the "heavy'bullets...Like others have pointed out,the 358 W.. is the place to start and I think the majority would be happy to dwell there... Onceabull

bearcove
04-10-2014, 09:48 PM
Not worried that its not ideal for cast. Have a 35 rem and a 35 Whelen Working on a 358 win. I have 358 NM dies and brass and 300 win mag brass to make more. Don't have anything 338 and got rid of my 375 H&H cause it was too heavy so it never got carried. I have a 30-06 that goes with me most places so if I lost all my ammo I could find that.

I go to Alaska and it would be used there if anywhere. Good for long shots power for up close work if needed. AND most importantly I have all the components for it.

Mk42gunner
04-10-2014, 11:17 PM
I have a 30-06 that goes with me most places so if I lost all my ammo I could find that.

Funny you said that. When I was stationed in Fallon, NV and coming home every fall on leave to fill my freezer, I brought whatever the current rifle is was building/ having fun with, and my old 98a Mauser in .30-06 that I have had forever. If it got down to the last couple of days of deer season the new toy got put up and the '06 filled my remaining tags.

Robert

cabezaverde
04-11-2014, 04:12 PM
If any one is interested, I have a complete set up of dies, brass, factory ammo, and a Ruger 77 tang safety for sale... Drop me an PM

bearcove
04-13-2014, 10:24 PM
Still thinking

bearcove
04-13-2014, 10:39 PM
I'll throw a bit more rain on this...

Look at the dimensions of those Norma cartridges compared to Winchester ones. For all intents and purposes a 358 Norma is the same thing as a necked up 338 Win Mag. Except it isn't. The dimensions of the Norma brass and the Norma chamber is slightly different, as is the headspace dimension. If you have a Norma chambered rifle you need Norma brass to use in it for everything to fit properly. If you build a 35 X 338 Win Mag, you can use any available 2.5 inch or longer belted magnum brass and not have to buy the special Norma cases. Something to keep in mind....

-Nobade
The head space is not an issue because the 358 NM case is shorter. the belt of the case is the same as the standard mag case it technically headspaces off of,is the same as a 300 WM, the shoulder is set back.

bearcove
04-13-2014, 10:47 PM
you have to trim the brass cause they are too long

obssd1958
06-28-2014, 12:22 AM
I went to an Estate sale several years ago. While there, one of my purchases was a flat of factory rifle ammo. 7mm Rem Mag, 358 Winchester, and Norma brand 358 NM. I sold most of the 7mm and 358 Win ammo at various gunshows, but no one was interested in the Norma ammo. The longer I had it, the more I was intrigued. So before I knew it, I was the proud owner of a 1917 that had been fitted with a thumbhole stock, and converted over to 358 Norma Magnum!
It shot factory ammo well, but before I could wring it out, a certain enabler on this board had found a custom Model 700 with a Douglas barrel (also chambered in 358 NM) for sale at a price I couldn't pass up. The 1917 went on to a new owner, and I had something to really work with.
I put my Vari-x III on top and went to the range. Two shots to get the factory rounds in the center of the paper, and the next three went into about 3/4", outside to outside!
I took a white tail buck with it, at 265 yards, 2 years ago. At impact, the buck drew up all 4 legs, and dropped into the spot he had been standing in. DRT
I have not taken the time to work up a cast load for this rifle, because trying to pay the bills each month has taken pretty much all of my focus. But this year is going to be different - I and a good friend of mine, have drawn hunting tags good for one each, Bull Elk and Cow Elk. That's four total for the two of us. Taking my elk with my own cast boolit would be icing on the cake, so let the fun begin!!!

Loudenboomer
06-28-2014, 09:02 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about the .358 Norma case being too large for cast Boolits. I've done well with inexpensive WCC860 and heavy Boolits in the 35 Whelen. I'll bet the big .358 Norma case would be even better with the same type of combo.

cabezaverde
06-28-2014, 11:01 AM
If any one is interested, I have a complete set up of dies, brass, factory ammo, and a Ruger 77 tang safety for sale... Drop me an PM

Still have this for anyone interested.

assasinator
11-30-2014, 05:45 PM
there are a bazillion powders for reduced loads that shoot ANY .358 boolit just fine. I have shot everything I wanted to in my 350 Remington magnum. at low velocities also.

19112TAP
12-02-2014, 11:42 AM
I used to have a 358 NM for several years and had no problems fire forming 338 WM brass into 358 NM brass, I used pistol powder with toilet paper wad and then corn meal filled all the way up and capped of with some wax sounded like a 20 ga going off. I never loaded with cast but used several jacketed bullets in the 225 to 250 gr range killed allot of game with that old gun just got to be to much recoil for this old body.

Three44s
12-02-2014, 11:47 PM
I am a bargain hound.

A local shop was going out of business, the owner moved to Montana. He had something like 10-13 boxes of new unprimed Norma brass for the .358 Norma for sale that a customer had ordered in and then chickened out and returned the rifle in the meantime.

I bought the brass for conversions.

I never did that.

I started instead studying the info on the big Norma and just sat on that brass.

I have not done anything but my plan is to have an ER Shaw made up for my Savage bolt guns and have at it.

One thing has stymied me ...... I also have a fondness for the same in a .416 Taylor .......

AND I can't decide which to do first!

The other fact is that I have been so busy acquiring Savage made (mostly) and a few lower tier custom barrels for the Savage action that the available funds have been going that way instead of towards a pair of Shaws.

......... Well, that's my story anyway!

Three 44s

calm seas
02-01-2018, 04:16 PM
there are a bazillion powders for reduced loads that shoot ANY .358 boolit just fine. I have shot everything I wanted to in my 350 Remington magnum. at low velocities also.
I have a 35-338 WM that I want to shoot cast in. Not looking for jacketed velocities. Could I safely start at the lower end of the other 35's data to work up loads?
Lyman's 14th cast bullet manual (if I recall correctly) shows two loads for cast in the 358NM, both use 14 or 15 gr Unique.

Texas by God
02-01-2018, 07:46 PM
Mine was a 1917 Erfurt 98 Mauser that was originally rebarreled to 35 improved Whelan. I had it converted to 358 Norma Magnum. two of my brothers and I traded it back and forth over the years until it finally slipped Away. With reduced loads and Pistol bullets it worked great on turkeys, with 250 grain Speer soft point it worked great on Elk. I only had 20 Factory Norma cartridges and I held on to those for someday. I was given two boxes of Speer dwm 7mm Remington Magnum shells and not being scared I fired those in the 358 to make brass which to my surprise worked perfectly. I honestly cannot think of a better belted Magnum cartridge than the 358 Norma Magnum.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Three44s
02-07-2018, 06:14 AM
I am still sitting on most of my Norma brass as in the prior post.

A friend had a barreled Mod 70 pre 64 rebarreled in 7mm Rem Mag that I bought from him right after my earlier post but the friend got some of my brass in the deal.

His contention was that a controlled feed was the best choice for a cartridge like the 358 Norma.

While the .358 Win is more optimum for cast than a Whelen, The later certainly works. This I am sure of because I have a 338-06 and they are happy with cast.

The Lyman cast book listed the 338 Win Mag as a very stable cast platform. Why would a 358 Norma not be fairly do able? There is a difference between an optimum cast platform and a do able rifle made more versatile such as a 358Norma.

My friend kept his Norma and sold me his other pre 64 Win 70 instead because he likes it not only for it’s effect on game but also since it is so versatile .... he loves to shoot word pistol bullets out of it as well. I have to talk to him about cast boolits but he thinks they are some sort of evil. Oh Well!

By the way, last fall he tagged a major black bear with it. In previous years he clipped bears with it and was not happy with the bullet performance. This latest bear hunt went differently. He shot this one with a tipped Barnes bullet, not the heaviest of theirs either and it went down in a pile. He is on cloud nine over that combo now.

Best regards

Three44s

calm seas
02-10-2018, 11:16 PM
Three44s,
I have Lyman's cast 4th edition; they also list some cast loads in their 48th and 49th editions of their reloading manuals. Would I be safe starting with low-end loads for the 338 - same weight bullet, and work up slow, using the standard cautions? I know it can be playing with explosions to start extrapolating load data from one cartridge to another.
Thanks in advance

white eagle
02-14-2018, 10:10 PM
I think it is one of the best there is
I have wanted a Norma for a long time
why slow it down and handicap it to shoot cast
like others have said there are better cast shooters out there

Three44s
02-16-2018, 01:03 AM
calm seas,

The 338 Win Mag and the 358 Norma have very similar case capacities and shapes. The Norma cartridge has a larger bore size. Everything else being equal, the Norma should operate at a lower pressure than the Winchester cartridge with same powder at a given charge and similar bullet.

White Eagle makes a good point that the Norma is not an “ideal” cast boolit cartridge. I don’t think that is the point. Lots of cartridges are not “ideal” for cast but still they serve yeomen’s duty with cast.

A great example is the .243 Win.

I personally have not tried my rifles in that cartridge with cast but it is well thought of by a number of members in that use. One would have a difficult time convincing many shooters that turning a 243 into a cast shooter is an “efficient shooter”. That is if only velocity is the prime criterion.

Another criterion an owner of a significant caliber such as the 358 Norma may well be concerned could be flexibility.

Three44s

calm seas
02-19-2018, 03:00 PM
Another criterion an owner of a significant caliber such as the 358 Norma may well be concerned could be flexibility.

And there, three44s, you stepped right in it. I have the 35-338 in hand. I would like something that can drop a Sitka Blacktail here in Alaska without dismembering it, yet be able to put a few in the magazine in case a brownie wishes to challenge my claim on the deer, or use me as a snack.
I use 8 gr of Unique under a 230 gr cast in my 454 pistols for plinking...a 360 gr cast WFNGC over 24 gr of H110 for 'serious' bear or moose medicine.
Flexibility is the beauty of handloading.
Thanks for confirming my suspicion that the 35-338 SHOULD have lower pressure than the 338WM using identical powder charges and bullets.

murf205
02-26-2018, 11:05 PM
I must have forgotten to tell my 358NM that it is not ideal with cast boolits. I shoot 30 gr of 4759 and a 200gr gc boolit into about 1 1/2" @ 100yds at 1988 ave fps. It is a real pussycat to shoot. It's a tang safety Ruger 77 with a 22" Douglas that is a duplicate taper to fit the original 77 stock. Love that old gun but with 250gr j bullets @ 2800 it may be too much for my new shoulder replacement.:veryconfu

Three44s
03-04-2018, 10:31 PM
murf205,

That is indeed very fine performance! It is truely a shame that Hodgdons chose to discontinue SR4759.

A while back I acquired a pre 64 Win model 70 that had been rebarreled to a stainless Shillen chambered in 7mm Rem Mag. It wears a single stage Canjar trigger but is not presently stocked.

The thought is that as a controlled feed action it would be a great one to go with a 358 Norma chambered barrel.

I am a fan of the 7mm Rem Mag and will want to test run it that way and keep it around but have a 358 Norma for it as well.

Best regards

Three44s

murf205
03-06-2018, 10:40 PM
My 358 NM was a 7mm Rem at birth, but it is an '83 model and Ruger was buying barrels from anybody who could make one back then and it gave me fits trying to make the $%^& shoot accurately. Finally, I had the rifle rebarreled to a 22" Douglas in 350 Rem Mag and it was a pretty good shooter but nothing you wanted to crow about. One day, while I was in Jimmy McCollugh's shop, wasting his time, he mentioned that he had a 358 Norma reamer. That's all it took and the old Ruger came alive with the new chambering. Jimmy is one of the best riflesmiths in this country and the rifle now shoots moa(well almost) with everything I feed it. I just hope my new artificial shoulder joint can stand the pounding. It will be fed a lot of cast boolits in the future at somewhat slower speeds since we are fresh out of grizzly bears here in Alabama!

Texas by God
03-06-2018, 11:38 PM
Substitute a 158gr boolit for that 200gr with the same load in honor of that new shoulder! Fun shooting.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

murf205
03-08-2018, 04:07 PM
That is a good idea since I have had this old tang safety Ruger for almost 35 yrs, it would be hard to part with it, but a 358 Win dedicated cast boolit rifle would be a lot more practical. I'm only 2 1/2 weeks out of surgery, so still a bit tender on the shoulder. 22 LR time for a while.

rmcc
03-08-2018, 04:15 PM
The 358 NM is a GREAT cartridge!!! Getting into 375 H&H performance in my opinion. The biggest problem with 358 Norma not catching on here, again in my opinion, is that it was brought out in TOO light of rifles!! Look at the Kricos., Shults & Larson, and Husquavarna rifles that were introduced with this caliber. I shot one of the early Kricos and still have nightmares about it!! If you have a Model 70 action and a contour 5 barrel, you are well on your way to having one of the most versatile rifles you could want!!

rmcc

murf205
03-08-2018, 10:42 PM
216031216032Mine is a 77R Ruger from '83. It is just right to carry at around 8 lbs with a 3x9x42 Kahles scope. The pad on these old red pad guns is not known to be very soft and the age seems to harden them as well. It feeds slick as snot and will shoot 1 to 1 1/2" groups @100 yds with a 250 gr Nosler partition around 2750 to 2800fps. I had to beat my Alaska friends off of it. They love the tang safety 77's and especially 358 Normas.

Texas by God
03-09-2018, 08:45 AM
216031216032Mine is a 77R Ruger from '83. It is just right to carry at around 8 lbs with a 3x9x42 Kahles scope. The pad on these old red pad guns is not known to be very soft and the age seems to harden them as well. It feeds slick as snot and will shoot 1 to 1 1/2" groups @100 yds with a 250 gr Nosler partition around 2750 to 2800fps. I had to beat my Alaska friends off of it. They love the tang safety 77's and especially 358 Normas.That is very nice all around.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Three44s
03-09-2018, 11:48 PM
I will second that “nice” comment!

As a lefty shooting righty rifles all my adult life, the safety on the tang is a very useful location for them.

I bought two tang safety model 77’s back in 1976 & 1977, a Liberty 77V in 243 Win. and a post or non- Liberty model sporter in 270 Win.

The Liberty 77V had the good barrel and the 270 didn’t. The 270 got traded for a Browning A-bolt II in 25-06 that shoots lights out while the 77V has earned honored status. It still shoots lights out as well. Not a half MOA, but a 1/4 MOA gun!

Three44s

murf205
03-11-2018, 02:36 PM
Ruger was, and still is, noted for making limited runs of unusual calibers, so I wonder why they never chambered a run of 358 NM rifles. As you can tell by the dummy round in the pic I made for Jimmy McCollough as a guide for the throat, there is plenty of room for it. A 77 MKII would be a sure hit IMHO if they made a small run of them. Gill, are you listening???

Texas by God
03-11-2018, 10:57 PM
IMO if Remington had bought rights to the .308 & .358 Norma magnums and chambered them in the model 721 they would be standards today.

cabezaverde
03-12-2018, 03:51 PM
216031216032Mine is a 77R Ruger from '83. It is just right to carry at around 8 lbs with a 3x9x42 Kahles scope. The pad on these old red pad guns is not known to be very soft and the age seems to harden them as well. It feeds slick as snot and will shoot 1 to 1 1/2" groups @100 yds with a 250 gr Nosler partition around 2750 to 2800fps. I had to beat my Alaska friends off of it. They love the tang safety 77's and especially 358 Normas.

Is it a rebarrel or rechamber?

murf205
03-12-2018, 04:17 PM
Both. It was born as a 7mm Rem mag and that barrel was taken off and sent to Douglas where they duplicated the taper to match the factory barrel only in a 350 Rem Mag. Then it was re-chambered to a 358 NM later. It is actually more accurate as a 358NM than before.

murf205
03-19-2018, 02:24 PM
IMO if Remington had bought rights to the .308 & .358 Norma magnums and chambered them in the model 721 they would be standards today.

I agree 100%. The 300 Win mag would have had some serious competition if they had. The slightly longer neck and shorter OAL makes seating longer boolits for the 308 NM to fit the action of my Mark X Mauser perfectly.