Leading vs. Cream of Wheat?

[LeadThrower]

http://www.bulletlubes.com/ describes, at the very bottom of the page, a method of removing leading by "load[ing] a few cc's of Cream of Wheat breakfast cereal (UNCOOKED!) below a cast bullet".

Anyone care to share your experiences with this method?

Mmmmm.... suddenly I'm hungry! :coffee:

Happy New Year, all!

[mooman76]

So that's waht I've been doing wrong. It suppose to be uncooked!

[VTDW]

I read that also. I am going to give it a good try if I ever lead a rifle up but so far I haven't. Fingers are definitely crossed.

Dave

[ktw]

If I remember correctly, Ken Mollohan ("Molly" here) was an advocate of COW as both a filler and a gas check substitute.

He sent me a copy of an article he wrote on COW some time ago. I will have to look for it. I was planning to try it in a 243, but then unexpectedly traded off the rifle. Still plan to try in some other cartridges, but these are currently pretty low on my cast bullet load development priority list.

-ktw

[longbow]

I can't claim lead removal with Cream 'o Wheat (never tried that) but I can tell you that I have shot unlubricated lead boolits with a Cream 'o Wheat filler and have not gotten any leading when without filler I did.

I have also read posts and articles by others who claim the same. The comment I read was the the Cream 'o Wheat packs into a tight hard puck and scrapes the lead out.

Having just read ktw's post, I have also used Cream 'o Wheat filler under ungaschecked boolits successfully too. Just bear in mind that the filler takes up space and raises pressures. You can't just take any old load and add filler. You have to make sure the load is low enough pressure that the addition od filler weight and reduction of cartridge empty volume don't result in over poressurig your gun.

Good reading here on fillers:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

If the right page doesn't come up you are looking for "Cast Bullets in the Lee Enfield Rifle"

And from here:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

This comment: "Safe, easy to acquire & use, 100% loading density, accuracy enhancing and scrubs the barrel clean with each shot." This refers to PSB filler - you have to scroll down the article a ways.

Longbow

[Ricochet]

It used to be a popular recommendation as a filler for reduced loads. Sometime in the '70s I read that it has a tendency to clump, harden, and raise pressures.

[kodiak1]

Have used it for ages and wouldn't use anything else for a filler.
Have never had leading problems, figured I was either damn lucky or damn good.
Always lube when using grease grooves. Have even used it under paper patched with smokeless loads.
Kind of like the smell of powder singed cream of wheat.
Haven't ringed a barrel yet either.
Ken.

[JIMinPHX]

I always used grits for filler.

[VTDW]

Is there a rule of thumb for using COW for filler? I am thinking about using a 1/4 charge in my rifles to see how it works but would be grateful for someone having experience to post the answer as they see it.

Thanks,

Dave

[JIMinPHX]

I've only used filler with black powder. With that , you fill it right up to the seating depth of the bullet. Air space + black powder = big problems. With smokeless, things are different. The airspace in a smokeless cartridge acts as a buffer for the higher pressure that powder creates. That's why the same powder charge in a .308 & a .30-06 generate two different pressures. The case with the larger volume, & larger airspace, generates the lower pressure with smokeless powders.

[JIMinPHX]

Also, I’ve never used filler in a bottleneck case.

[LeadThrower]

The changing pressure as a function of case volume depends on powder burn rate, I imagine, so this question might be overly complex....

Is there a rule of thumb for changing case volume and its effect on pressure? (as a result of seating depth and/or filler use)

For reference: right now I'm dropping 5.3 gr Unique into 357 mag brass, which is well under Lee's reloading manual maximum of 6.9 gr. However, my COL is only 1.555 to seat the 158 RF at the crimp groove. Lee's manual lists 1.590 as the min COL, but I've had no signs of pressure even up to 6.9 gr with COL at 1.555 - 1.560.

Longbow: your link to filler use is my next destination... thanks!

[KCSO]

I have used COW filler, but only with charges that filled 3/4 of the case or better. COW was the only way i could get a couple of 303's to shoot as I couldn't put a bullet big enough for the bore in the chamber. I never tried to REMOVE lead but it might work. Let us know.

[waksupi]

I have used COW in bottleneck cartridges. I found at times, I would have a hard compressed ring of it, left inside of the casing after firing. I don't use it anymore.

[longbow]

I have used COW filler only in black powder cartridge and .303 British.

I have not had any trouble with COW in the .303 with smokeless loads. I would have to look up my records but I have used it to top up the case with reduced loads of IMR 4064 and IMR 4320 and I worked up to a max. load of Unique (loading manual max. without COW) under a 205 gr. boolit with the extra case volume filled with COW. The primers were just starting to flatten a bit with that load, no extraction problems or other signs of pressure. Accuracy was good and no leading.

I've also used it with of IMR 4198 (I won't repeat the charge unless I check) but it was near the maximum recommended without filler. I worked up to this load with no problems and got good accuracy.

I was a little surprised that I wasn't seeing pressure signs with so much volume reduction but then the COW does compress some too and is probably on its way down the barrel before the pressure peaks. From what I understand from reading several articles is that the biggest benefits are consistent velocities due to consistent ignition and sealing of the gases behind the boolit. David Southall mentions these as well as the potential to scrub out leading in his article on http://www.303british.com/id37.html

I haven't done enough testing to confirm or deny with certainty but I like the COW filler and will continue to use it when appropriate unless I experience problems. Also when using it I have had no leading so far.

Granted the .303 has quite a tapered body and gentle neck angle compared to say a .243 Win., 7mm Remington mag, 300 Win., etc. They may respond differently.

Longbow

[racepres]

The only times I have used COW was when fireforming for wildcats! [I have a few] Can say that lead was not a problem, and they were all bottleneck cases [to start w/ at least]. On some radical forming processes the charge was quite stout, in order to get good forming. Always I charge, then fill w/ COW [to the top] then seat. Yes it compresses the 'stuff" but I have always gotten good case forming, and now that it is mentioned... No leading whatsoever.. HTH.. MV
Please note that in fireforming,, pressures are typically lower than normal due to the case capacity increasing as the charge builds pressure... so I would start w/ a very light charge when topping off w/ COW in fully formed cases!!! Heck I'll try it tomorrow and give a heads-up... MV

[The Double D]

I first learned of Cream of Wheat from P.O. Ackley. He said use it to fireform brass.

Works good for that. Necks never came out square. One by product of fireforming with CoW was afterwords the bore was always bright and shiney. Nice!

I have been in some feedmills over the years and the thing that has always impressed me was how bright shiny smooth the grills were where the feed passed into the sacks and trucks.

Got to thinking about CoW in a bottle neck case. I can pour the stuff in pretty easy but ever now and then it will block the funnel and I have to shake it to get it in. Pulling down loads I have to poke the stuff with a screwdriver to keep it flowing when i dump it.. Wonder how easy it pours from the larger body of a bottle neck cartridge when being pushed through the smaller neck by a charge of RL-15. Maybe thats why the cases in which I used CoW always need squared.

Lets see...stretched necks, shiney bores...hummmm, I wonder?

[Paul B]

It used to be a popular recommendation as a filler for reduced loads. Sometime in the '70s I read that it has a tendency to clump, harden, and raise pressures.

I'll comfirm that it does cause problems. I was using COW in my 45-70 rifles to hold 16.0 gr. of SR-4759 against the primer with the COW slightly compressed by a Lyman #457122. The load was accurate, gave about 1750 FSP and I liked it. One day at the range, I had an FTF and the bullet never left the case. When I got home, I pulled the bullet and the COW was compacted into one solid chunk that had to be dug out with a screwdriver. Never again, sez I.
I can only imagine what the pressures could be like in a bottlenecked case if the COW compacted as solidly as it did in the 45-70. The slight loss in velocity and slightly larger groups are a very small price to pay for safety.
Paul B.

[racepres]

As promised, I gave it a go today. In the 8mm Mauser 150 gr gc .323's [didn't have any heavy ones madeup] I generally use 13.0 gr of Unique.. tried 10 gr and filled case to shoulder-neck junction w/ COW. .. Got a dirty gun!! Took an ole turk that the bore was kinda dark, and ran the load up to 12.0 gr Unique. filled to base of neck w/ COW and seated some PB and got a really clean bore out of the deal! Encouraged, I grabbed the ole reliable Lee Loader for my .44 [My shootin' partner has my .44 dies] and made some 200 gr rfn pb sized .430 that I been using. Generally I load these w/ 18.0 gr of Blue Dot, but in my records I see where I started at 15.0 gr. and nearly gave up cause of leading. Going to 18.0 had actually improved the leading situation, but cost accuracy, and were not "lead free" . Short story longer, my SBH had some serious lead streaking in her when I started. From touching off some of the 18.0 grainers. for a baseline. After loading the 15.0 gr of BD and enough COW to get a very slightly compressed situation, into a cylinder full, I went out to give 'em a go. Accuracy was real good , considering the "shiver factor' and my range is buried in a snow bank!! Once inside I pulled the cylinder and about dumped the empties out.. not quite but nearly. The bore is shiney as if I just cleaned it!! I'm Gonna keep experimenting. After a warm front!! Sorry so long.. MV

[Cayoot]

Racepres,
Excellent report! I'm gonna have to purchase some cow!

I'm really looking forward to your next report.

Thanks:drinks:

[PAT303]

When I first started in Lead boolits I bought some mass produced boolits that were terrible in every way.Then after reading the 303 article I used COW and tumble lubed them and they shot quite well.I have also used it with my own home cast boolits and dacron filler and it doe's seem to work with some loads.My idea is that it makes up in a way the loose spec's in mil surp barrels and cause's the boolit to slug up quicker by raising the pressure at ignition but that is for smarter people to work out. Pat

[lordgroom]

I am thinking of trying this with a .357 Magnum round in 158 Gr SWC. I assume I should start at the beginning powder load and work it up as I woul a new load?

I use 13 gr. of 2400 currently but I got quite a bit of leading. I have worked up loads with Bullseye for fun and to see if I can use less powder and gain more shots, but I haven't tested the rounds yet. There is quite a lot of extra room in the case with only 4.8 gr of Bullseye.

I load with a progressive press so I imagine adding COW will take some extra work and perhaps have to be done by hand.

[carpetman]

Maybe with cream of wheat you aren't getting leading at all,but maybe constipation.

[racepres]

I am thinking of trying this with a .357 Magnum round in 158 Gr SWC. I assume I should start at the beginning powder load and work it up as I woul a new load?

I use 13 gr. of 2400 currently but I got quite a bit of leading. I have worked up loads with Bullseye for fun and to see if I can use less powder and gain more shots, but I haven't tested the rounds yet. There is quite a lot of extra room in the case with only 4.8 gr of Bullseye.

I load with a progressive press so I imagine adding COW will take some extra work and perhaps have to be done by hand.


Utilizing a commercially cast 158 as well as the Lee SWC water quenched WW,at 155 gr. Either seems to have given like same results as the other.. I have used both 2400 and H110 [same 13.0 gr] And according to my notes, the H110 loading was doing 1160 fps from my 4" DW, the 2400 load I guess I gave up on... note says too much lead! Note also says that the H110 load does leave leading.. but less than even a Unique loading of 6.4 gr [1088 fps].
Now ya went and done it... I gotta go load some 357's to see if the COW is the "answer"! Sure wish it was warmer out!!!! MV
BTW adding COW is a pain in the ****.. but once you choose the appropriate Lee Dipper, [You do have the Lee dipper set don't you??] It becomes dip, dump, and go!!!
On my .44 load previous post I use the #1.3 for the powder and the #.5 for the COW and seat....MV

[shooting on a shoestring]

I currently have on my loaded shelf, lead cutter loads for .38spl, .357 and .45 Colt. All have charges of fast powder, case full of COW and whatever boolit. I do lots of experimenting with lubes, sizes, powders etc... and sometimes get a looser load that leads a barrel. No problem, shoot some lead cutter loads and move on.

I have loaded 30/30 with 2 gr Bullseye, .310 round ball and the interviening space filled with COW. Very quiet. About like closing the door on a worn-out Ford, velocity 450 fps.

I once backed that load down to 1.5 gr Bullseye and stuck a plug of COW in the barrel about 6 inches from the muzzle. It was the size of a cigerette butt and packed like a dirt clod.

I've wondered about COW eroding forcing cones, throats and barrels, but so far haven't seen anything but a leadless bore.

As for dispensing COW, I have a second Lyman 55 setup on my bench dedicated to COW. I also learned to keep my COW sealed in old powder cans, my mice were getting a little pudgy.

[lordgroom]

Shooting on a Shoestring- Are you saying you use a handful of COW filled rounds to clean the leading at the end of your firing session rather than mixing COW in every cartridge?

[racepres]

Weather warmed to abt 29 today so I experimented w/ the 357 and my "pet" 7X57.. I have come to the conclusion that the use of COW is both a "tool" for lead removal, and a "band-aid" for less than perfect loads. My 357 will shoot the poorer performing loads satisfactorily if I add COW. also the COW loads "clean' the bore up, if leaded. However w/ the 357, and the 7mm Mauser, I already have "good" loads and there is no improvement... For my 44,, I will continue to add COW, until I decide to go to a bullet of a different type.. W/ rough bore 8mm it works wonders!! But for good loads... I'm gonna leave 'em alone! Not that it wasn't a great learning experience... Quite contrary.. I now have a great tool, as well as the [seemingly] perfect band-aid for my "less than perfect" loads! HTH MV

[LeadThrower]

I finally got some CoW loads tuned for my 357:
158 gr Pb over 10 gr CoW over 2.5 gr Unique
This load fills the case, or nearly so, so I don't fear any mixing powder and cereal.
It kicks like an impotent 22 and cleans every last bit of lead from the bore in 6 rounds! It was even accurate at the 7 yard range some paper was sitting at the time.

My intent was to use it as a clean-up while I'm tinkering with various alloys and lubes which have been leaving a bit of leading in the forcing cone and first 1/2" of rifling. Chucking lead downrange is far better than developing tennis elbow from scrubbing silver smears from the barrel.

Enjoying a new leading-free life! :Fire:

[hotwheelz]

I Have just loaded some .40, and .45 to try this out is was wondering if you guys could look at my loads and see if they are close to what you are using???


-.40 175gr lswc, 3.8gr of bullseye with 5gr of C.O.W. fills case to bottom of bullet

-.45 200gr lrn, 3.8gr bullseye with 9gr of C.O.W. fills case to bottom of bullet


I went with lite loads b/c Im not sure if all the cow will cause the pressure to rise. I have heard that you shouldnt compress loads unless it says so in your loading manual. I will tell you it is time comsuming to do this on a dillon 550, its very hard to get in a rythm after years of just loading normaly. If it works it will be worht the time. Thanks guys

[LeadThrower]

Wheelz,
Your loads look like mine. My 2.5 grain Unique was about 40% of my normal starting load with the 158 gr RF. I also referenced 38 special data to be sure I was using a light load for that caliber as a precaution. I went very conservative to account for the tightly held (or marginally compressed) powder. I'm sure I could have gone with twice the powder and correspondingly less CoW without pressure problems.

My only other thought is that bullseye is mighty quick, so might produce pressure problems when contained more so than a slower powder like unique. I'm just guessing on that point.

[racepres]

Like Lead thrower, I "feel" that bullseye is plenty quick for use w/ filler! tho the loading appears safe, and thusfar I have not noticed the COW causing increased pressure.. tho my "spidey sense" tells me that it must!! I would use 5 and 6 gr of Unique personally, and grin like the Goon that I am... But I suspect that your loads will make you smile also!! Big help huh??? MV

[LeadThrower]

:-D

First, a little background: My CoW lead-scrubbing loads were fired at a lonely piece of paper hanging about 7 yards away. I noticed some rather long keyholes (not scattershot) after force-feeding it some breakfast. Clearly the CoW was compressed into a "slug" that survived the 7-yard trip relatively intact.

So, a challenge for we Goons: develop a load for which CoW plugs have stable ballistics. :kidding:

[racepres]

OH!!! LT: My .44 mag positively dotes on the COW combo listed previous in this thread!!! It shot that load very well indeed previous to "breakfast time" but now it does so w/o leading!!
I did reduce the loading slightly cause I felt it prudent... Later under warmer conditions, I will boost 'er back up!! I would chronograph it... but, I don't have a "shield" !! One Goon to another!! LOL MV

[hotwheelz]

OK here is my review of my C.O.W. loads in 45, 40. I went to the range this moring to try out the cow loads to see if what was being said was true I believe it works well smells kinda funny. I will show you some pics I took of both barrels before and after.
My .45 colt commander had about 700-800 rounds on of 200gr lsw tumble lubed with 4.5gr of titegroup. As you can see in the pics I had a lot of gunk in the barrel, which is a pain to clean out mostly lube in my opinion. I shot about 20 rounds of 200gr rn Rainiers thew it {not sure if I need to use jacketed ammo or not I loaded some lead rounds with the cow but didn’t use this time} with 3.8gr of bullseye and 9gr of cow. I brought it home took a picture before running a bore snake threw it and a pic again after bore snake. I think the pics speak for them selves.
My 40 smith M&P had only 200-300 rnds of 175gr lswc tumble lubed with 4.8gr of RED-Dot powder. The barrel wasn’t to bad to begin with but had some smears near the front of the barrel. I shout about 20rnds of 175gr lswc t.l. with 3.8gr of Bullseye and 5gr of cow. Just like the 45 I brought it home took a pic and then ran a bore snake threw it and took another pic.
It cleaned the barrels and I am happy with the out come of this idea and I will continue to use these after shooting sessions to help with clean up when I get home. Im not sure yet if I need to use jacketed ammo for this or if lead makes a diff. I will check it out more in the next month or so. I also am not sure how many rounds are really needed to clean up I put 20rnds threw each gun but it may take less. Thanks to those of you who brought this up it has been a great learning project.

First pic is of my .45 before shooting
second is the .40

[hotwheelz]

1st pics is .45 after the cow loads and before the bore snake
2nd pic id the .40 after the cow load and before the bore snake

[hotwheelz]

1st is the .45 sfter the bore snake
2nd is the 40 after bore snake

[georgeld]

Impressive bore cleaners!

I've very seldom used CoW, most times when I fireform I use corn meal.

Some have mentioned hunks of CoW.
I just fireformed around 330 5.7 case's necked down to 17x28's and fire formed them all at 8 feet at cardboard.

Not having any use, or success in finding out what the powder is they used to load factory 5.7's with. I'd kept it rather than throwing out when pulling 300 bullets down.

Not having any bulleye, and Red Dot filled the case too full and still wouldn't fully form them. I decided to try 3.0gr of this 5.7 pull down powder. made a dipper from a .22LR case cut about in half as no Lee dipper was small enough to throw 3gr. This worked slick.

Instead of wasting a bullet. I loaded them: 3.0gr pwdr, cornmeal to the mouth, then pressed all the softened parafin wax in by hand that I could get in them. They were compacted.

After finding piece's of this wax all over things in the shop. And it blew hole's thru the cardboard and still cleaned the loose dirt off the dirt floor. I fired at an angle against a piece of steel plate with the cardboard standing behind it. After about two hundred rounds like this the cardboard was nearly "spray cut thru about 4" high and 16-20" long.

The bore was clean and shiney too, even after the wax. I'm convinced the cornmeal didn't pack into a hunk. But, also hitting the plate that would have broken it up. Yet when fired right at the cardboard before the steel. there were 2-3 holes from the wax and many fine pits from the cornmeal. Therefore, I assume it did not pack into a hunk like CoW has been for you guys.

Anyone willing to load some up in shotgun shells to see if it polishes the plastic streaks out?

Too bad all my 45 Colt cases are loaded or I'd fill them with C/M. The bore on this blackhawk is rough and has some leading build up from about 3-400 rnds.

Great thread, maybe we've hit on something worthwhile.

[lovedogs]

Here we are... into this filler controversy again. I know some experienced shooters who've ruined a few good rifles using fillers so I try to warn others against the practice. I know, some of you have used them for decades and never had a problem. I just wonder if it's worth the gamble. I was almost convinced to give them a try, COW and others, when I decided to give a call to a ballistician who I visit with occasionally. He has always steered me in the right direction. He warned me against using any fillers of any type. He did say that COW was probably one of the safest to use if one wanted to take the chance but also warned that if left in a cartridge long enough it tends to leech some of the solvents in the powder out and makes the powder of a faster burn rate, which can be disasterous. It would have the effect of turning something like 5744 into Bullseye. It's just best to avoid fillers altogether and look for other ways to rectify any problems we encounter. Just my 2 cents worth.

[hotwheelz]

Here we are... into this filler controversy again. I know some experienced shooters who've ruined a few good rifles using fillers so I try to warn others against the practice. I know, some of you have used them for decades and never had a problem. I just wonder if it's worth the gamble. I was almost convinced to give them a try, COW and others, when I decided to give a call to a ballistician who I visit with occasionally. He has always steered me in the right direction. He warned me against using any fillers of any type. He did say that COW was probably one of the safest to use if one wanted to take the chance but also warned that if left in a cartridge long enough it tends to leech some of the solvents in the powder out and makes the powder of a faster burn rate, which can be disasterous. It would have the effect of turning something like 5744 into Bullseye. It's just best to avoid fillers altogether and look for other ways to rectify any problems we encounter. Just my 2 cents worth.

Have you heard of problems with staight walled pistol cases?? As far as leaving them sit and the cow leeching some of its solvent?? Im looking at the box and the ingredents I dont see anything that is solvent but Im no chemist could you elborate what is turning to solvent? I kept my loads on the way low side just incase. I dont imagine loading 1000's of these and leaving them around. But thanks for the word of caution and I will keep a close eye on these loads.

[lordgroom]

Went to the range yesterday and after working up a load of .357 Mag with Unique, I decided to test some COW. I fired 30 rounds that I previously caused a lot of lead fouling. My accuracy worsened after about 20 rounds. I fired 10 rounds of .357 Magnum pushed by 6.2 Grains of unique with COW to just under the base of the bullet. Fired the remaining 20 rounds of the lead fouling bullets and then tested 3.2 Grains of Bullseye with a .357 bullet because the case had room for more COW. I can't say which load was more effective but there was virtually no lead fouling when I cleaned the barrel.

This is a great discovery!

[duckndawg]

Ok so do you put a card over the powder or just put the COW right on top of the powder?

[racepres]

No card for me! Just try not to put so much that the seated bullet compresses it appreciably, but not so little as to leave a gap!! IMHO the gap is a worser thing than some compression.. As w/ any reloading endeavor consistency is also a factor, depending on your use!

[JesterGrin_1]

Could someone by chance give me an idea for this COW in my .44 Mag Marlin? I have TightGroup and thought I would go cheap and use some .433 round balls for doing the cleaning. In doing this I will have a light weight Boolit which will in my thoughts of which could be all wrong help lower the pressure needed to put the ball through the Barrel as well as use more COW to clean the Barrel with. As it takes me much too long to clean out the lead after a day of shooting. Thanks in advance for any help on this. :)

[Bass Ackward]

As it takes me much too long to clean out the lead after a day of shooting.


Wow. When you see threads like this envelop this much interest, it says, you're not alone.

[racepres]

Wow. When you see threads like this envelop this much interest, it says, you're not alone.
I agree...
Jester.. while you are correct on the pressure thing... For cleaning I would take a different tact! Using heavy boolits [rejects w/o lube seem to be fine] and the COW seems to leave the bore cleaner FWIW!! Heck "plink" w/ the "balls" then clean!!!
I guess that the only "cleaning" use, I was interested in was for dark [military type] bores.. A brush has alway worked fine for me on "decent" bores! Then again... any less cleaning rod "strokes" has gotta be a "good thing", as I'm one who believes cleaning rods are harder on bores than anything!! I never [hardly] clean my 22 rf's!! They work fine.
While I was most impressed that I could make a "less than perfect" load perform w/o leading, Let me say again that such uses are a "band-aid"!! MV

[JesterGrin_1]

Wow. When you see threads like this envelop this much interest, it says, you're not alone.


Well I do hope someone does come up with some kind of load for this thing lol. I have been throwing lead out of my Marlin like it was free trying to find a good load and the cleaning is just wearing me out lol. I have been cleaning it so much I feel like I am going to wear the gun out from the bore out lol.

[lovedogs]

Hotwheelz... No, I haven't heard of any problems with straight-walled pistol cases. But I've not heard of anyone I know using COW in them, either. As to the question on solvents, there are solvents used in smokeless gunpowders. If these leech out of the powder it alters the nitro content and thereby increases the burning rate. At least that's what I've been told. For example, if the powder used was maybe Unique and the solvents leeched out of it over time it could react like Bullseye, creating a very hot load. I have no idea how long it'd take for this to take place but it seems like it'd take a while.

[Molly]

... I was almost convinced to give them a try, COW and others, when I decided to give a call to a ballistician who I visit with occasionally. ... He did say that COW was probably one of the safest to use if one wanted to take the chance but also warned that if left in a cartridge long enough it tends to leech some of the solvents in the powder out and makes the powder of a faster burn rate, which can be disasterous. It would have the effect of turning something like 5744 into Bullseye. ...

OK, I've got to put MY two cents worth in too, after reading something like that. Lovedogs, FWIW, I really AM a research chemist, and have worked with solvents all my life. And yes, there are traces of solvents (mostly ethers and alcohols) in freshly manufactured smokeless gunpowder. But no, they have no significant effect on the burning rate of the powder. They are only there because they have no significant effect, and because it would cost a lot of money to remove every trace.

Let me ask you this: Do you reduce the recommended max charge on your latest batch of powder every year? Does ANYONE? No, not even the guys who buy by the keg or drum. But the traces of powder escape during storage, nonetheless. If anyone believes this, I suggest the simple expedient of actually TRYING it, instead of reporting it as fact - which it is NOT. Weigh out a couple of powder charges for your favorite smokepole. Load one into a round while it is still fresh. Let the other lay in the hot summer sun - or bake it on the oven for a while - until there is no trace of solvent smell left. Then load it in another round. Shoot both of them, and see if you see any difference in pressure signs. You won't!

Now it is true that COW will adsorb traces of that residual solvent, right up until the solvent is uniformly distributed within the cartridge. Then it hits an equilibrium, and no other change occurs. The powder will still have 90+ % of the solvent it had to begin with. And since it can lose ALL of its solvent with no noticable change in pressures, how much change do you think will occur if it has only lost 10% of it's solvent? HEY!!! THAT'S RIGHT! Congratulations!!

This has all the earmarks of someone classifying a sack of self-rising flour as an high explosive, just because a few silos have been known to blow up. It takes a few accurate facts (Wheat dust can detonate. COW can adsorb solvents) and applying rubber (as opposed to rigorous) logic until the rubber band snaps! It would be just as logical and reasonable to decide that since wheat dust can detonate like HE, the COW is equivalent to adding an eyedropper of nitroglycerine to the load.

Molly

[Bass Ackward]

Now it is true that COW will adsorb traces of that residual solvent, right up until the solvent is uniformly distributed within the cartridge. Then it hits an equilibrium, and no other change occurs.


I see COW as an equal opportunity absorber. I would think that it isn't always what a filler takes out, but what it can put in that can cause problems. Especially if you are in a humid climate or load on a damp day. Or I would think a cold climate where your rounds go from cold to hot and sweat.

What does moisture do to smokeless powder where it obviously isn't sufficiently high to prevent ignition? Can / does moisture change or affect burn rates?

[Molly]

What does moisture do to smokeless powder where it obviously isn't sufficiently high to prevent ignition? Can / does moisture change or affect burn rates?

Smokeless gunpowder - IE nitrocellulose - will not absorb moisture. Smokeless and water are as incompatible as motor oil and water. While a rigorous analysis may find traces in both cases, they will be in the parts per million range at most. You can pour smokless into a bucket of water, strain it back out and let it dry with no observable change in properties.

Molly