Lee 309-200 shoots like do do

[tomme boy]

Went out today to play a little bit with the 308 win. I was shooting at 100yds off the bipod. We had a 5-10 mph wind from the left to the right. Almost at a straight 90* angle to the range.

It started out pretty good hitting about 30 clay pigeons in a row, I decided to see what it looks like on a target.

This is 25 rounds of 308 win loaded with a Lee 200 gr boolit that has a aluminum check and lubed with Randy Rats Tac1 lube and 21 grs of 5744 powder. It is sized at 0.310" seated to the crimp grove. Now the gas check is way below the neck. Some say this is bad. But it works so here is a pic of the 25 round group. I say these Lee bullets shoot like DO DO. what say you?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0388_zps35920f4a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/101_0388_zps35920f4a.jpg.html)

[Ben]

So much for the g/c being below the neck , UUhhh ?

That particular bullet is obviously a great fit to the particular rifle you own.

[tomme boy]

The more the merrier in a group. 3 shot don't show much. I like how you do the 10 shot groups all the time. I just kept going. That bullet has shot like this in 3 of my different 308's. I have some that are better, but this is just one that seems to work in most. And with aluminum checks too. I know some will not shoot them but this gun carries a Shilen SS Select Match barrel and it does not hurt it at all.

[Ben]

Of all the things there are to worry about in this life, one of the very last for me is my aluminum gas checks.

Again, GREAT SHOOTING.

Ben

[tomme boy]

I just went and measured from the top to the bottom. 1.602" So that is 1.294" actual group. That is not MOA but there was not sorting done to the boolits at all. It was mixed 2x fired then neck sized MIXED brass. Military and about every other type made. I have used this same boolit to make hits on steel plates out to 600 yds with this exact load. The plates were 12" and I could hit it every time as long as I could get a good reading on the wind.

One thing I just wanted to show is you can shoot good groups with just the understanding of FIT and proper casting technique. Once you get in a rhythm, you know when you are getting good boolits. I know I can probably shoot better than this if I follow some of the practices most seem to do. And that you can do this on the cheap. You don't have to have $160 molds ( it does help ) and the use of cheap gas checks do work and work good.

[ACrowe25]

Hey Tomme, did you water drop, air cool, etc? Why did you choose to do it that way, which ever you chose to do.

I've casted too many pistol boolits to count. But I've always air cooled so I can inspect as I go and see if I need to speed up/slow down the cadence etc. Wondering how rifle casting ways and the way you do it... Obviously works! Great shooting buddy.

[tomme boy]

I water drop everything. Just faster for me. I adjust the alloy for what I am shooting. These were about 18-19 for the hardness.

I normally do sort my brass and go over it with a fine tooth comb. The most I sort the boolits is by visual. If it has any flaw I can see, it gets melted. I don't weigh any of them. This time I didn't do any of this. It just shows what a newcomer can achieve with minimal work. The understanding of what is going on is a big thing to all of this. Like Ben said, this boolit fits my throat rather well. So does the bore ride. It is right at 0.301" It fits and is starting straight. Thats what a lot of people hear keep saying over and over. It works. Granted it is not under the magical 1 MOA but I didn't take a picture of the first 5 rounds that were under .5" I could have shown that and said look at this .5" group. But this is more real of what it really is like. I know wind and off a bipod are playing a role also, but so is the nut behind the gun. Can I do this tomorrow???? I don't know. Everyone has good days and everyone has bad.

Ben above seems to be one of the guys that seems to be able to do this over and over again. But I bet even he doesn't show some of his targets just like the rest of us do. Myself included. You should see my handgun targets. They look like buckshot at 50 yds.

[Larry Gibson]

Assuming 100 yards?

Having used a Lee 200 gr cast bullet in the .308W and knowing where the crimp grove is please describe "way below the neck" for me? I would have described the GC , seated to the crimp groove in a .308W, as being "just below the neck". Matter of semantics I suppose and is why I simply ask for further clarification.

As mentioned in another recent thread the seating of the GC below the case neck can be ok. You WQ the bullets and are using a low end (psi) load of 5744. The velocity is probably around 1650 fps +/-. If the slip on GC is on reasonably tightly and only "just below the case neck" then no problems should arise if the rounds are single loaded (I also assume you single loaded?). However, if the slip on GCs are not tight on the shank or "glued" on by the lube then if the cartridge is in the magazine the GC may come off under recoil when another round is fired. However that depends a lot on the recoil of the load, which with your load should have been fairly mild.

Thus with the combination of things you did seating the GCs below the case neck obviously had little detrimental effect. Goes to show sometimes it's okay and sometimes it isn't. BTW; the use of Aluminum for the GC has nothing to do with it. I also use lots of aluminum GCs in .30, .31, 8mm and .35 calibers with no detrimental effect, especially with the low end loads like you are using. I make mine with .014 flashing and find them quite satisfactory.

Also don't sweat the 25 shot group being not "under the magical 1 MOA". Shot from a bipod with that wind it is and excellent group, an excellent load and excellent shooting. Those who would criticize and moan about it's accuracy not being "match winning" simply fail to comprehend your enjoyment and accomplishment. I think it's great accuracy, well done.

Larry Gibson

[Love Life]

1.5 MOA fr a 25 shot group is legit.

[popper]

I agree, good shooting. FIT, alloy & load. Goes to show just a small amount of 'precision' can give really decent results. Try them without the GC. This is ~ same fps. 2 on right were me.
101694

[tomme boy]

I wanted everyone to see that you don't have to be so analytical about doing this. The important thing is consistency in casting and have fun. Don't sweat about little things and have fun. I am having more fun than ever since I started to shoot cast in rifles.

Larry, you're right about the speed. And being able to shoot the cheaper checks helps cut the cost. These are on the shank really tight. I can get them off, but I about rip my fingernail off doing it. I like being able to go shoot 150 rounds of 308 and not break the bank. And the look on everyones face when you have a huge pile of brass laying there is fun.

I have introduced 5 young kids this year already to shooting rifles. They really have a hoot of a time shooting this. They hit what they are aiming at. And that hooks them. I have a small steel target that I bring and when they hit that they hear it ring and they know they hit it. The smiles are great. The parents love it too because sometimes they have a hard time getting kids to shoot because of all the BS they are being told in school. Then they have fun and it all turns around.

I just hope that some of the newer people here can read this and see that using common tools they can shoot cheaply. They don't have to get a custom mold. Lee has its faults, but they do have stuff that works really well. I have a love hate relationship with them.

[Larry Gibson]

tomme boy

Good for you helping the youngin's learn to shoot the proper way. Wish more would do that.

You are also quite right that casting bullets and shooting them with excellent accuracy is not rocket science. Some of us who get into the nuts and bolts of it many times forget that. I converted 45 Argentine SF 75 7.65 cases to SR boxer primers yesterday and test fired them over a load not much different than yours. I just went up the mountain just outside of town (about 2 miles from my house) and shot them at rocks and some bits of clay pigeons left on the hillside at a place where a lot of folks go shoot. Range was just 100 - 125 yards. Had a blast and thoroughly impressed another couple guys there as I was shooting off hand with my M91 Argentine "Juan". Their jaws really dropped when they saw I was using cast bullets. The Lyman SME aperture rear sight was dead on with the load and I was holding hard and shooting straight. Not winning any CBA matches with it but I sure had fun!

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop Junior]

This is my favorite boolit in my handi rifle 30/06

[cs86]

Nice groups. What twist rate is your barrel(s). I've thought about a 200gr for targets. I wasn't sure how it would do out of my 1:12 twist at longer distances. I've never attempted shooting boolits out of a rifle yet, but I have a used 180gr lee mold coming sometime this week.

[Larry Gibson]

A 200 gr .30 cal cast will do fine out of a 12" twist.

Larry Gibson

[tomme boy]

It is a 1-10 twist. But at the time all I could get was this 10 twist. I wanted the 12 but did not want to wait for 8-9 months to get one. The 12 twist is about the perfect twist for 30 cal for most of the shooting we do.

[popper]

helping the youngin's learn to shoot the proper way Exactly why I want cast from the 300BO. No GC, a little powder and they will have fun, few $$/100. It will goto them when I'm not here anymore. 308 is a little much for them even though it's an AR.

[dverna]

Good post sir.

I HATE seeing guys post 3 shot groups - man what a bunch of dummies. even five shot groups are only so-so for proving a load unless you can repeat them over and over again.

Good casting, loading, and shooting.

Don Verna

[goofyoldfart]

TommyBoy, Larry or anyone---would that be a good boolit for a Stevens Mod 200 in 30-06? have a new one and don't know what I really want to shoot in it. I am of the opinion that heavy for caliber at about 1600--1800fps would do for hunting and target with out killing my damaged shoulder. Opinions would be appreciated. God Bless to all and theirs.
Goofy

[tomme boy]

I have never messed with the 06. Larry would be able to tell you or Gear or Ben.

[Bullshop Junior]

TommyBoy, Larry or anyone---would that be a good boolit for a Stevens Mod 200 in 30-06? have a new one and don't know what I really want to shoot in it. I am of the opinion that heavy for caliber at about 1600--1800fps would do for hunting and target with out killing my damaged shoulder. Opinions would be appreciated. God Bless to all and theirs.
Goofy

I shoot them all the time in my 06. If you shoot me a PM I can hook you up with some loads and some bullets if you like.

[Recluse]

Good post sir.

I HATE seeing guys post 3 shot groups - man what a bunch of dummies. even five shot groups are only so-so for proving a load unless you can repeat them over and over again.

Good casting, loading, and shooting.

Don Verna

Doesn't bother me seeing three-shot or five-shot groups displayed if they are rifle/long gun rounds in load development.

When I'm working up loads, I typically will only load between three and five rounds per specific charge/dimensions/configuration, change powder volume or crimp or brass or whatever, then load three/five more, and so on.

I call it "economy of scale."

If I get a good load, then I'll work on duplicating it. But if/when I get not-so-good loads, no reason for me to blast through ten or more rounds simply to prove that it's not a good load.

An old armorer friend of mine from the military once told me that the first four or five shots out of a rifle showed what the rifle could do. The next four or five or more shots showed what the guy firing the rifle could do. I've found, for the most part, that this is pretty accurate. I've got a few rifles in which the more you fire them, the looser the groups become--notably a Mini-14 and a Winchester 94 in 30-30. All of my bolt-action rifles are very consistent from the first round to how ever many I fire before having to stop to save my (already wrecked) shoulder.

I like that Lee 200gr boolit as well, and I've got a Savage Model 110B in 30-06 that especially loves it. I haven't tried it in .308 as I typically like a slightly lighter projectile in that caliber, but given Tomme Boy's spectacular results, I may have a new summer project.

Also agree about taking the new folks out and shooting. In the past six months, I've helped six medical professionals (combination of doctors, pharmacists and one registered nurse) learn to shoot and get their CHLs. Since the first of the year, I've taught two shooters how to reload and have a third student waiting in the wings.

It's all fun and it's all good.

:coffee:

[45 2.1]

An old armorer friend of mine from the military once told me that the first four or five shots out of a rifle showed what the rifle could do. The next four or five or more shots showed what the guy firing the rifle could do.

Ahhh..... Someone who understands. Truer words were never spoken.

[Hickok]

Doesn't bother me seeing three-shot or five-shot groups displayed if they are rifle/long gun rounds in load development.

When I'm working up loads, I typically will only load between three and five rounds per specific charge/dimensions/configuration, change powder volume or crimp or brass or whatever, then load three/five more, and so on.

I call it "economy of scale."

If I get a good load, then I'll work on duplicating it. But if/when I get not-so-good loads, no reason for me to blast through ten or more rounds simply to prove that it's not a good load.

An old armorer friend of mine from the military once told me that the first four or five shots out of a rifle showed what the rifle could do. The next four or five or more shots showed what the guy firing the rifle could do. I've found, for the most part, that this is pretty accurate. I've got a few rifles in which the more you fire them, the looser the groups become--notably a Mini-14 and a Winchester 94 in 30-30. All of my bolt-action rifles are very consistent from the first round to how ever many I fire before having to stop to save my (already wrecked) shoulder.

I like that Lee 200gr boolit as well, and I've got a Savage Model 110B in 30-06 that especially loves it. I haven't tried it in .308 as I typically like a slightly lighter projectile in that caliber, but given Tomme Boy's spectacular results, I may have a new summer project.

Also agree about taking the new folks out and shooting. In the past six months, I've helped six medical professionals (combination of doctors, pharmacists and one registered nurse) learn to shoot and get their CHLs. Since the first of the year, I've taught two shooters how to reload and have a third student waiting in the wings.

It's all fun and it's all good.

:coffee:Correctly stated. :goodpost:

Also a "1 shot group" fired out of a cold barrel, on 3 or 4 consecutive days tells me a whole lot about my load and my rifle. I want to know where the first shot goes out of a cold barrel, because that is the one that downs the target, whether varmit hunting or deer hunting.

[Larry Gibson]

An old armorer friend of mine from the military once told me that the first four or five shots out of a rifle showed what the rifle could do.

Yup, that ranks right up there with; "beware the man with one gun.............."

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

TommyBoy, Larry or anyone---would that be a good boolit for a Stevens Mod 200 in 30-06? have a new one and don't know what I really want to shoot in it. I am of the opinion that heavy for caliber at about 1600--1800fps would do for hunting and target with out killing my damaged shoulder. Opinions would be appreciated. God Bless to all and theirs.
Goofy

Either the Lyman 311041 or the 311291 will do very well for any '06. Similar bullets from other makers in the 170 - 180 gr range will do as nicely. They can be used for light "cat's sneeze" loads all the way up through max hunting loads in the 2000 - 2300 fps range. Very good target shooting at 1400 - 1850 fps with either is quite the norm.

Larry Gibson

[w5pv]

I don't have the rifle now( it was stolen)but I could get 3/4,shot groups of 5 at 75 yrds using 40 grains of IMR 4831 under a gas checked 200 grain spitser OAL length of 3.240.Loobed with Bens Red.This was in a 742 Woodmaster Jamamatic.One of the best shooting guns that I ever had,
TommyBoy, Larry or anyone---would that be a good boolit for a Stevens Mod 200 in 30-06? have a new one and don't know what I really want to shoot in it. I am of the opinion that heavy for caliber at about 1600--1800fps would do for hunting and target with out killing my damaged shoulder. Opinions would be appreciated. God Bless to all and theirs.
Goofy