recommendation for auto-loader critter defense.

[300blk]

(Daniel Boone national forest area in KY.)
I am a happy 10mm owner and shooter.
I am also a 6'1" and 225lb guy and have no problems with even the heaviest .454 loads.
This is not the case with my best friend,
he is 5'5" and maybe 145 soaking wet. he bout a glock 20sf and a 10mm 1911 at different times.
Recoil was unmanageable with full-house loads.
we are looking into alternatives,
The requirements are:
Auto loading handgun,
Higher capacity is better, but single stack is acceptable.
the projectile must be of sufficient sectional density to penetrate deeply, reliably.
recoil can be stiff, but not abusive. ( for reference, 10mm full-house loads are abusive in this case)
My thoughts were for a 38 super with a wide flat nose in a 160 (ish) grain hard cast projectile.
we had also considered a 9x25 Dillon.
I Look forward to your thoughts.
I also welcome firearm recommendations.
Thanks guys.

[Love Life]

45 ACP. 230 gr of stank at 800+- FPS. Get a Glock and you have 13 rds of stank. Not abusive and kills just about anything well. I reckon in your area your worries are black bears? What else?

[runfiverun]

I think a 45 acp may be in order also.
I'd look at a flat point though and a pretty tough alloy.
the 850 fps area is reasonable and powder selection can affect his perceived recoil.
other than something like that he might wanna stop by and get some bear spray.

[osteodoc08]

Wow. I find my 10mm G20SF to be relatively soft shooting.

If needing an autoloader, 357Sig would probably be "next in line" if wanting capacity, however, the 45 acp is nothing to sneeze at and at 15+1 from some of the FN offerings, offers plenty.

Or just learn to shoot the 10 he has.

[C. Latch]

I have a 1911 that I added a tungsten guide rod to, in order to increase the weight a tad, and it's a powderpuff with 250-grain flat points and 6.7 grains of 800-x for right at 900' MV.

What sort of critters do you have up there that a 9mm won't handle, anyway? I ask because it looks like I'll be your neighbor (Scott county, TN) here in a few weeks.

[muskeg13]

I have a 1911 that I added a tungsten guide rod to, in order to increase the weight a tad, and it's a powderpuff with 250-grain flat points and 6.7 grains of 800-x for right at 900' MV.

Have you tried any other powder combinations? With a 250gr Lyman FN, I've tried:
5.7gr of Universal Clays for 915 fps ~2" at 20 paces, but STOUT
up to 6.0gr Unique for 924fps, but not that accurate and STOUT
x.xgr Blue Dot for 921fps, but inaccurate with flattened primers..No Go

I eventually settled for 4.5gr Unique for ~800fps. Very mild and extremely accurate. Although I live in bear country, I'd rather carry my trusty .45 M1911 than a heavier, bulkier, and hard recoiling .44 Mag. 800fps may not be barn burning velocity, but if it's accurate and mild, it allows for fast follow-up shots. 8-9 250gr FN ww alloy boolits @ 800 (that hit the target) will break a bear's concentration.

[Changeling]

This is easy! The most overlooked caliber there is for non abusive recoil, easily handled by hunters, awesome home protection, excellent accuracy, enough energy for any deer or black bear, easy to cast and reload, easy on powder (somewhat) and is quitely being bought up by the S&W smart guys!

The ".41 Magnum" revolver! will handle any .41 caliber bullet. Not finicky about bullet type or configuration like semi-autos. Capable of being downloaded to "Soft" or uploaded to "ROAR" like a Lion.

It would be very hard to find a knowledgeable revolver man that would disagree.

[Pilgrim]

Uhhhh...I think he's looking for a semi-auto per OP. I'll throw my 2 cents in for a "1911" .45 ACP. You can start with a soft recoil spring and soft loads and work your way up to whatever power level he/she can handle by changing out the spring rate as the power increases. Handloads required of course. Springs are easy to get by the mfgr or Brownells. FWIW...Pilgrim

[C. Latch]

Have you tried any other powder combinations?



Not with the 250.

My main interests for a .45 ACP are factory-duplication loads; right now mine happen to be holoow-points but I bought a mold that would also drop a 250-grain Flat Point, and experimented with 800-x, because my dad wants to borrow that 1911 and hang it off his side while hunting in black bear country this fall.

I cast some flat points, loaded them up with 800-x, fired them, they worked perfectly, and I shelved the project until later in the summer. FWIW this 1911 also has a squared-bottom Firing Pin Stop and a 18.5" recoil spring. If I was going to shoot a lot of hotter-than-factory-ammo loads through one I'd definitely suggest the FPS and whether you go to a heavier recoil spring is up to you.

[DougGuy]

.45 ACP +P is about as good a bang for the buck as you will come by that is a bit short of full house 10mm loads. It's a good compromise between the 10 and the .45 ACP at standard pressures. Trade the 10mm 1911 and get a .45 ACP 1911 maybe an all steel or stainless steel Commander size, very portable, most any decent one will handle +P pressures.

[MtGun44]

Truncated cone or Keith 452423 will penetrate well, load to 900 fps in .45 ACP, good
hole size, good penetration, moderate recoil.

Bill

[harley45]

I'd go 45 and load it with the RCBS cowboy boolit at about 900 FPS
I've been thinking about testing that combo on Hogs as an addition to my 10mm

[osteodoc08]

This is easy! The most overlooked caliber there is for non abusive recoil, easily handled by hunters, awesome home protection, excellent accuracy, enough energy for any deer or black bear, easy to cast and reload, easy on powder (somewhat) and is quitely being bought up by the S&W smart guys!

The ".41 Magnum" revolver! will handle any .41 caliber bullet. Not finicky about bullet type or configuration like semi-autos. Capable of being downloaded to "Soft" or uploaded to "ROAR" like a Lion.

It would be very hard to find a knowledgeable revolver man that would disagree.

Don't disagree one bit, but I think the OP was looking for autoloader.

I love my 41's though.

[petroid]

Ok so I'll ask. Do you reload? Does your friend reload? I'm hoping you do which is why you're on this forum. Can you not load the 10mm a little lighter to reduce the recoil to more manageable levels? A 10mm 200gr TC or SWC would be better than a 357 caliber boolit even if loaded to 40sw levels in my opinion. And it would have as much or more energy than a 45. You can always keep some full house rounds on hand for defensive purposes but practice with the lighter loads in the same gun

[300blk]

Given my tests, the .45 seems to be a bit of an underperformer is the area of deep penetration, I wouldn't hesitate to use it for two legged types (if i didnt love my 10's so much) and it may perform well (especially with 250 HC ), but 35 to 40 caliber seems to give better penetration vs recoil. I do appreciate the responses is there a reason not to use 38 super, 9x23 or 9x25?
Keeping that suggestion in mind... Outside of the .45 acp what other recommendations do you have?

Were he after a revolver I would highly recommend a 41 magnum handloaded with ultra heavy bullets at a moderate pace. Or even a 357 mag with a 200 grain hcwfn. (my first suggestion)

Mostly I'm just trying to keep it easy on him and reduce recoil as much as possible.

"learning to shoot the 10mm" is not an option, he is a hell of a shooter it's just a problem with lack of strength.
Ever met that guy who can sit down and eat 1.5 16" pizzas and be hungry in an hour? Yet is still skinny as hell? That's him all over.

Concerns are black bear, wild cats, coyotes, people and wild boar(recently).

[Mk42gunner]

Given your description of your friend, I am guessing the Glock 20 was way to big for his hands, and depending how it is set up the 1911 may be too.

Was it the recoil or the muzzle flip that he didn't get along with in the 10mm 1911?

A 1911 with a flat mainspring housing and short trigger is about the easiest bottom feeder to grip and shoot well for medium sized hands, ( an a serious caliber).

I am going to suggest a 1911 in either .45 or 10mm with a Commander length slide and a single or double chamber compensator on the end, making it the same length as a Gov't model. That is about the easiest shooting combo I can think of.

Or if he doesn't like the idea of carrying cocked and locked, go with a Sig 220.

Robert

[300blk]

Ok so I'll ask. Do you reload? Does your friend reload? I'm hoping you do which is why you're on this forum. Can you not load the 10mm a little lighter to reduce the recoil to more manageable levels? A 10mm 200gr TC or SWC would be better than a 357 caliber boolit even if loaded to 40sw levels in my opinion. And it would have as much or more energy than a 45. You can always keep some full house rounds on hand for defensive purposes but practice with the lighter loads in the same gun

He is going to be starting soon, but I have since I was about 18... to say I reload 25k rounds a year would be a conservative estimate.

I've thought of this, but have had little luck convincing him of it merits.
I started a group buy discussion for a heavy 220 10mm bullet yesterday in mold design forum. and if I can get enough to be interested for a run I plan on doing some gel block experiments with just such a load. If I can come up with one that fits the bill, well... problem solved.
Mostly this thread was to take in a wider angle of alternatives in case this doesn't pan out.
Thank you for your suggestion.

[Tatume]

I went through the same process a few years ago. Upon analysis of the threat, I decided rabid small animals were the greatest danger. I've seen several rabid skunks, and my brother was attacked and bitten by a rabid fox. He fought it off while backing away, and eventually tripped backwards, the fox closed in, and bit him. He had to go through the treatment.

My criteria are high velocity and rapid expansion, with tremendous tissue disruption, but deep penetration was not necessary. I settled on a 9mmP H&K P7 with 115 grain +P hollow points.

[300blk]

Given your description of your friend, I am guessing the Glock 20 was way to big for his hands, and depending how it is set up the 1911 may be too.

Was it the recoil or the muzzle flip that he didn't get along with in the 10mm 1911?

A 1911 with a flat mainspring housing and short trigger is about the easiest bottom feeder to grip and shoot well for medium sized hands, ( an a serious caliber).

I am going to suggest a 1911 in either .45 or 10mm with a Commander length slide and a single or double chamber compensator on the end, making it the same length as a Gov't model. That is about the easiest shooting combo I can think of.

Or if he doesn't like the idea of carrying cocked and locked, go with a Sig 220.

Robert

While he is typically against compensated pistols, this may be an avenue that is worth investigating.
I have a 10mm long slide barrel that is threaded already that will fit his Glock 20, and I can make a compensator in the shop based on existing designs, I will try this one.

[jmort]

"A 10mm 200gr TC or SWC would be better than a 357 caliber boolit even if loaded to 40sw levels in my opinion."

How so? Lower sectional density and penetration. Not sure how that is better. If he insists on semi-auto I like the 9mm or .38 Super suggestions. Otherwise, your suggestion of .357 revolver makes sense.

[300blk]

Tatume-
Rabid small critters could easily be dispatched with a deep penetrating pistol round right?
I can see the benefit of the other, surely.
I wonder if there would be time available to change to a secondary magazine or load in the same pistol?
I try and stay away from one gun for all tasks mentality but it seems I've gotten drawn there again if only for simplicities sake. :)

[country gent]

Having all of the above mentioned auto loader calibers and having used them for various copetitions and around the house and farm my thoughts on this post are going to be in the form of plus minus lists for each caliber.
10mm fairly sharp recoil and functioning, slide has a higher velocity with some loads. Good velocity to bullet wieght. Some what flatter trajectory. ammo and components readily available. Decent platforms for it. Louder sharper muzzle report also.
40S&W lower velocity than 10 mm hence lighter recoil. Same bullets basically as 10mm. Components readily available, Loaded ammo is also easy to find. Several good platforms for it. Guns tend to be lighter than 10mm also. Trajectory isnt quite as flat as 10mm but useable.
38 Super is a great round if you want to handload. With major caliber power factor loads a supported barrel is normally recomended. Components are available bullets easy cases and loaded ammo can be harder to find at times. Recoil is controllable and not bad report is sharper "crack". Depending on load trajectory is workable. Heavy bullet loads ( 150+) can develop very high pressures quickly. Ipsic major caliber loads with heavy bullets were often estimaterd to be above saami specs for this round. A great shooting round and a ball to use. I have dispatched many woodchucks and other varmints around buildings and from tractors with mine. Possibly a 135- 140 grn fp at around 1100-1200 fps
45 ACP Is also a great round well proven in battle on the ranges and just all around use. Ammo and components are readily available at ussually fairly reasonable prices. Wide range of bullets both jacketed and cast. Recoil is more a push not sharp or unmanagable. Report is more a dull thud. Trajectory is the worst of these cartridges due to heavy bullets lower velocity. Many diffrent platforms abound for this caliber also. There are several "wildcatt" versions with better velocities but much heavier recoil. Maybe something in a 200 grn tcfp at around 1000 fps?
What I have found to be very effective to find what a shooter can handle is fing a range with rental guns or a friend who will allow them to try them. The bigger grip frame required for the 10mm may be part of the recoil issue, fit is important to controlling a handgun. ( I dont care for my beretta 92 in 9mm for that reason) Grip frames, grip safteys and triggers all can have a very real affect on fit and feel. Also recoils springs wieght can have an affect on felt recoil.

[osteodoc08]

The 9x25 Dillon is based on the 10mm, you do realize that, right?

More power than 45 in an easy to manage package? Either download the 10mm or heavy for caliber smaller holes. Can't always have your cake and eat it too. 10mm is about as close as it gets unless he gets a Coonan in 357.

[Love Life]

Honestly whatever he can shoot the most accurately the fastest. No rule saying you can only shoot the animal once...

[300blk]

The 9x25 Dillon is based on the 10mm, you do realize that, right?

More power than 45 in an easy to manage package? Either download the 10mm or heavy for caliber smaller holes. Can't always have your cake and eat it too. 10mm is about as close as it gets unless he gets a Coonan in 357.



I do indeed, the benefit is in my experience with the caliber (9x25) is a sharp but not heavy or pushy recoil. I would attempt a 158 or 147 grain in this caliber.
"power" is not what I'm after, but deep penetration is.
the Coonan, while neat is...large, I shoot a full-size Glock 20(non sf) and my banana hands have no issue. The Coonan OTOH presents a grip length issue for me, I rented one at a range in KY a couple of times, I really wanted to like it but just couldn't hold it "right". Downloading is still probably the primary route. Or, fabricating the compensator with loads providing enough gas to run it.

[300blk]

Honestly whatever he can shoot the most accurately the fastest. No rule saying you can only shoot the animal once...
I agree, given proper penetration the ability for repeated follow up shots is one of the primary objectives.
This is the issue with recoil.

[Love Life]

What is he likely to encounter in your neck of the woods?

[300blk]

Wildcat, black bear, coyotes, boar, and two legged varmints.

[nhrifle]

How about an AR platform "pistol" in 300 AAC?

[300blk]

How about an AR platform "pistol" in 300 AAC?
After my own heart.
I think blackout sbr is perfect for this with a 150 soft point.
a little hard to justify for the trail, or my buddy.
But I'm right there with you.

[kawasakifreak77]

I'm similar weight to 'the friend' here & always been looking for an auto in a decent caliber.

Got a West German sig p220 & I love this thing! I naturally hit with it, holds 11 rounds with stick mags & one in the pipe & throws big ole soft boolits out there! Something, I have always been a firm believer in.

I can eat a lot of pizza too. :D

[Jupiter7]

The super should be a decent compromise for your friend. The saeco 383 147gr SWC at 1200fps or so wouldnt be something to sneeze at.

[olafhardt]

A few years back Gun Digest reviewed the data used in the Thompson-LeGaurd Studies that resulted in the choice of the 45ACP by our military. It was noted in that article that the 30 Mauser penetrated cattle better and killed them more reliably than the 45 Colt. The Tokarev cartridge is very like the 30 Mauser. A Tokarev is a sleek cheap pistol and proven quite durable. It also makes lots of noise. Privi makes ammo for them. I have extremely limited experience with them. I am a wheelgun guy and think the 357 is the ultimate booger blaster.

[Tatume]

Rabid small critters could easily be dispatched with a deep penetrating pistol round right? ... I wonder if there would be time available to change to a secondary magazine or load in the same pistol? ...

A rabid animal could be killed with a heavy, deep penetrating bullet, but could continue the attack long enough to bite. What I want is to inflict an incapacitating wound that will stop or slow the attack so I can escape.

I've shot ground hogs with a 357 magnum revolver using 158 grain soft nosed slugs. It is amazing the amount of damage they can absorb and still make it back to their holes. On the other hand, when shot with my 223 using 50 grain Sierra Blitz bullets, the drop on the spot. This is what inspired me to look for more "explosive" expansion.

Take care, Tom

[WRideout]

A few years back Gun Digest reviewed the data used in the Thompson-LeGaurd Studies that resulted in the choice of the 45ACP by our military. It was noted in that article that the 30 Mauser penetrated cattle better and killed them more reliably than the 45 Colt. The Tokarev cartridge is very like the 30 Mauser. A Tokarev is a sleek cheap pistol and proven quite durable. It also makes lots of noise. Privi makes ammo for them. I have extremely limited experience with them. I am a wheelgun guy and think the 357 is the ultimate booger blaster.

I acquired a Romanian Tokarev a little while ago, just because I couldn't pass up a real center fire pistol at the price they were going for. It looks like a Browning clone, rather resembling a baby Hi Power. It is fun to plink with at the range, but with my handloads, I haven't worked out all the function problems yet. Recoil is very mild; I have shot 45 ACP, and 357 mag that were worse. You may have trouble finding much variety in factory ammo but if you order online, you can at least find hardball. 7.62x25 as loaded for military purposes is alleged to be one of the factory loads that will defeat body armor, as far as penetration.

My reloads use the Lee 100 gr .30 cal, over Unique.

Wayne

[NVScouter]

Any defensive type weapon in 9mm/40S&W he can shoot well meets your criteria. Anything that will kill a human will put down anything you mentioned. Getting the pistol out and on target fast is the real issue.

Stack FMJ/HP/FMJ/HP etc. and go on with it.

[popper]

IIRC someone here put a 40 barrel in a 10 and it worked fine. Add some Cu to your cast (FN or SWC) in 40 or 10 and you will get the penetration you want. My 4th grade GS can handle the 40 as long as he can get a good grip on it. He's almost 5' and 70# soaking wet.

[Bagdadjoe]

Drop a 460 Rowland into the 1911 if the .45 isn't enough.
Personally, I carry a 1991A1 loaded with LBT Flat Nose Ball at 220gr. If I were a few miles east of here, I'd carry the same thing loaded hotter.

Much more likely to encounter 2 legged methcritters in eastern Ky than anything else.

[DougGuy]

Given my tests, the .45 seems to be a bit of an underperformer is the area of deep penetration

Concerns are black bear, wild cats, coyotes, people and wild boar(recently).

What load(s) did you test, what was the testing media and the velocity? Unless you are talking about really light boolits, or non +P velocities I haven't ever seen tests where the .45 failed to score well on penetration. For the most part the LEO community got away from the .45 because of over penetration. Which is precisely why I carry one.

[davidheart]

Wildcat, black bear, coyotes, boar, and two legged varmints.

We have the same things in this area. In the woods I carry hot .357 loads but only because I can also easily switch between that and snake shot (easier than an autoloader for sure). Otherwise I dont' see why he can't carry a 9mm. People use a 9mm to hunt bear with... which kind of blew my mind. Of course 9mm and 357 are almost identical in diameter anyway.

With a flat nosed 124/125 fmj or cast round at 1300fps or greater or a hot 147gr load I would feel comfortable in the woods. 26+ inches of penetration with that diameter boolit and it will mess up any critters day almost as much as a .357 magnum. 380auto is more than enough even to kill a coyote or cat. It's the bear and boar your looking for penetration for.

I carry first two rounds hp, then the following 15 fmj for penetration usually.

For 9mm, carry Winchester White Box (or other fmj) ammo for the woods and he'll be more than satisfied with the penetration. Run your own tests if you'd like. Phone books could be had at the post office for free or save your water jugs.

A friend of mine loads up for me what he calls a "Thumper" round which is a 124gr hard cast TC 1.070 OAL 7.7gr bluedot and the 4-shot chrony data from my 4.25" barrel was 1330.07, 1334.02, 1395.86, 1376.97

My 125gr 357magnum load with Accurate No.9 sits about 1402.17fps which makes me think I should step up my game. ;-)

PS I've never seen a 45 in person out penetrate a 9mm. I could be wrong, but I've never seen it... .45 is better because it punches a bigger hole... but because of that bigger hole it won't penetrate like a 9mm of equal level will just because of the size of the boolits.

Edit: If I were on the west coast with brown bears/grizzly I would NOT trust a 9mm. I would carry something larger and more suitable. 10mm/41magnum at minimum .460 Rowland/.44 magnum preferable because I want a big hole and penetration in that case... I prefer the smaller caliber because I can control it better with faster shots and penetration. But I'm not on the west coast.

[Love Life]

Ya'll are aware that you can shoot a critter more than once, right?

[paul edward]

Depends on the critter.
It might be better to suggest your friend use a cartridge/pistol combination with which he can achieve accurately placed hits.
A 9mm bullet well placed will kill a squirrel better than a miss with a .45.

[C. Latch]

Ya'll are aware that you can shoot a critter more than once, right?

But there'd be no need if OP would just get a .45 and be done with it.

;-)

[popper]

Seems like there is a documented story of bear hunters using 12 slug guns. The shot killed the bear but the bear still tore his leg up. Fortunately fellow hunters found him before he bled out. Then there is the fishing guide that tried to put down a grizzly with a 22LR revolver. That didn't work either. Repeated shots from a large cal. seem to work best.

[Tatume]

I'm no expert on bear attacks, and have no personal experience with brown bears either. Around here the black bears are fairly common though. A black bear will cross an open patch in the woods, without looking like he's in a hurry, in less time that it takes to point and say "Look at that." Considering that bear attacks start with the bear about 20-25 feet away, the person is usually unaware of the bear until the charge begins, and the bear IS in a hurry, I can't imagine most people would have time to draw a handgun, let alone shoot the bear.

[fredj338]

First, a persons size has little to do with recoil management. I have seen little 120# women shoot full house 44mag w/ good result & burley 250# guys wearing sissy gloves to shoot the same gun & do much worse. Barring an injury, t's proper technique, pure & simple. Second, no way to get horsepower w/o recoil, unless you go with a ported or muzzle break gun. Get a magnum, start shooting it with a proper technique, you learn to manage recoil or you don't.
In your friends case, a 4" N-frame 41mag may be the ticket, port it if needed. In a 10mm, go full size Glock, tungsten guide rod, maybe 6" ported bbl. If he can't learn to shoot those, then shoot what ever you can get good hits with in a reasonable time span, like 1 A-zone hit ever 1/2-3/4 sec.

[1bluehorse]

If needing an autoloader, 357Sig would probably be "next in line" if wanting capacity, however, the 45 acp is nothing to sneeze at and at 15+1 from some of the FN offerings, offers plenty.

Or just learn to shoot the 10 he has.


There's the answer.....357sig.....147gr Barnes over 1300fps.......125gr jacketed can run 1400+......a friend of mine even shoots a 180 castcore (?) in his....I've not seen this particular round and can't imagine how it fits in that small of a case...none of the animals mentioned as a "possible nuisance" would stand up to that first load.....nasty, nasty round....more than a 38 super and way above a 9.....(overloaded handloads not withstanding) 45 ACP's underwhelm me.....

[davidheart]

There's the answer.....357sig.....147gr Barnes over 1300fps.......125gr jacketed can run 1400+......

Nobody seems to have noticed my post at the bottom of the 2nd page. I'll abbreviate it.

9mm 124gr Hardcast Truncated Cone 7.7gr Blue Dot 1.070 OAL 1359fps average 509 ft/lbs energy 4.25" barrel 17+1 rounds

Unless the critter is made of steel or is a 600lb Grizzly (which is not what the op is asking for) I'm not sure you could get better penetration than a 9mm. Even standard fmj 9mm provides 26+ inches of penetration... he's on the east coast... where I am.... the bears in this area are no bigger than 120-300lbs and are scared of their own shadow. People put them down with 1 shot of 9mm for hunting. :killingpc

His tiny friend he so affectionately describes as being 145 soaking wet does not need to be hauling around a monstrosity of a gun for the shear sake of the once in a lifetime he may encounter a bear in the woods. Most likely he'll find a hog, cat, coyote, or bambi and even then they normally just run away while you're in the woods. Unless he wants to carry around a large gun (which is a.o.k.) he does not need to carry around a big gun.

[Love Life]

Give him this!! http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Main/captainsofcrush.html

[1bluehorse]

Nobody seems to have noticed my post at the bottom of the 2nd page. I'll abbreviate it.

9mm 124gr Hardcast Truncated Cone 7.7gr Blue Dot 1.070 OAL 1359fps average 509 ft/lbs energy 4.25" barrel 17+1 rounds

Unless the critter is made of steel or is a 600lb Grizzly (which is not what the op is asking for) I'm not sure you could get better penetration than a 9mm. Even standard fmj 9mm provides 26+ inches of penetration... he's on the east coast... where I am.... the bears in this area are no bigger than 120-300lbs and are scared of their own shadow. People put them down with 1 shot of 9mm for hunting. :killingpc

His tiny friend he so affectionately describes as being 145 soaking wet does not need to be hauling around a monstrosity of a gun for the shear sake of the once in a lifetime he may encounter a bear in the woods. Most likely he'll find a hog, cat, coyote, or bambi and even then they normally just run away while you're in the woods. Unless he wants to carry around a large gun (which is a.o.k.) he does not need to carry around a big gun.



uhhhhh, the 357 sig can be had in a compact auto................and you can put all the loads you want on here, the 9 can't compare to the sig....no way, the nine is a 35,000psi round with a smaller case, the 357 sig is a 40,000psi round (bullet same size as the nine) with a BIGGER case capacity.....I do not own a sig, I own and carry a 9mm compact....but that sig is on my list....other than that I pretty much agree with you...

[canyon-ghost]

Well, sure, I've shot a .357 Sig, nice magnum performance from an auto. Haven't seen much like that. I'd still prefer my 41 magnum Blackhawk when it has to count. It would be really nice to be carrying a 44 magnum Alaskan (Ruger Alaskan) with 2" barrel. And, I'd agree, recoil management isn't about size, it's about technique.

[Bored1]

Give him this!! http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Main/captainsofcrush.html

Don't let too many of those ninjeee skills go!!!!! I didn't even know those still existed!

My vote goes to anything he can shoot quickly and reliably. Have heard plenty of stories of guys doing what "couldn't" be done with a certain gun because they knew it inside and out and exactly how they would act/react in any situation.

[micky_blue]

Cant you get a 357 sig barrel for that block 20? Yes the action is a bit long, but he already own the pistol.

[gray wolf]

A Black bear at 25 to 30 feet can be on you in less time than many people think. If he wants you he doesn't come up to you and discuss it with you. + a charging bear is not the same Bear that is eating DO-nuts over a bait stand. He's mad and or hungry and probably may have even stalked you.
You need to stop him right now with a CNS hit, or two or three. All this while he is bobbing and weaving,
head going up and down and eating up real estate fast. IMHO a hard cast heavy slug, at least 240 grains and going about 1150 to 1200 FPS is what would get my vote.

A charging Bear is not for the faint of heart, and certainly not someone that has not practiced draw and fire while being scared out of your pants.
Get a card board box about 2 foot square and Tye some close line to one corner, have someone pull it to you as fast as they can and see how many kill shots you can get into the box in about 2.5 seconds from a holstered pistol. Forget the skull shots, a Blacks Brain sits much lower in the skull than most realize, Roof of the mouth has a better chance of reaching the brain.

My recommendation is the biggest, baddest pistol you can manage with a high degree of accuracy and speed.
If you can't holster it and say:
This pistol will do the job, and I know how to use it with enough proficiency for the task at hand.
If not I would say do not take point, fall back to the bigger gun, carry a short barrel light weight 12 gauge.
Be honest with your self, and/or get a big can of Bear spray
I love my 1911, my 357 is nice also, I have a lot of admiration for my 44 mag SRH.
Guess the one I carry in the Maine woods? yup the SRH, I am 5'9" 160 ponds, the SRH is heavy, it kicks a tad,
But some times you have to man up, Being taken apart by a Bear is not a fun day in the woods.

Just my take on the subject.

[davidheart]

...My vote goes to anything he can shoot quickly and reliably. Have heard plenty of stories of guys doing what "couldn't" be done with a certain gun because they knew it inside and out and exactly how they would act/react in any situation.

^ This

[gray wolf]

Have heard plenty of stories of guys doing what "couldn't" be done with a certain gun because they knew it inside and out and exactly how they would act/react in any situation.
Is the OP,s friend one of these guys ??
THIS ^

[nhrifle]

I second what gray wolf had to say. For the average pesky critter most anything that shoots with reasonable velocity and energy will do. However, a bear of any variety is a different animal altogether. I frequent the NH northern woods and I have seen some big bears up there. I have been on level ground just a stone's throw from a black bear easily in excess of 400 lbs. Luckily he was just out enjoying the sun and blueberries, but that was an experience that showed me what true mortal fear is all about. Several of the locals up there have told me of a true giant that has been named "Bearislav" and is estimated to be over 600 lbs. When I go up there, my Raging Bull in .454 Cassull goes with me.

[gray wolf]

I took Julie and the dogs for a ride to Errol N.H. on Rt. 16 from Rangeley one day to visit Cote's gun store.
A nice 40 mile ride. A short way into N.H. we saw the biggest Black Bear we have ever seen, it looked like an
inflated wine barrel with legs. It came up from the lake side and crossed the road ( his road ) and made his way into the brush.
If this Bear had decided to eat something there were no 45 ACP going to change his mind.
Not quickly anyway. Bear attacks need to stop like right now, not 5 minutes latter as in DRT

[Love Life]

Here is an exercise I want everybody who is asking the "What is the best gun for self defense against animals?" to do.

1. Take several target stands
2. Take several 6 inch paper plates
3. Go to the range
4. Put up target stands at 3, 6, 10, 13, 15, etc until you get to 25 yards
5. Once targets are in place I want you to draw your pistol and as fast as you can aquire and fire I want you to engage each plate from 25 yards in to 3 yards. Remember, as fast as you can aquire and fire. Do not cheat and game the system. You may have to reload, and that sucks for you in a real attack (think on that nugget). Do this until you are very proficient. What you'll learn here is moving from target to target quickly (which a moving target will present you), and you'll know your POI under stress at different distances while shooting fast.

If you missed the majority of the plates, then you need to train more. If you were slow going from target to target, you need to train more.

Holes kill stuff. When the SHTF and you are scared, you will get on the trigger and stay on the trigger. You need to. Do it. Shoot the thing until you get slide lock.

However; it's all moot if you can't draw and hit smoothly and fast. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

[gray wolf]

Do it. Shoot the thing until you get slide lock.
Or your cylinder goes around 6 times :dung_hits_fan:

[Tatume]

Or your cylinder goes around 6 times :dung_hits_fan:

Would that be six bangs and 30 clicks? :-)

[gray wolf]

Ok, OK, hows this ?
when your cylinder INDEXES 6 times. = 6 bangs :drinks:

[goofyoldfart]

I like Greywolf's Idea. screw reaching for the pistol (I carry a Glock 21--.45 cal) instead swing the sling and slam 8 12 ga slugs in the critter. one thing that I learned on patrols in the university of South East Asia was how to spin a sling and pump fire. the targets that I engaged are NOT typing on the Internet, but I am. Just my two cents for what it's worth. After that you can always pump another 14 .45's into it just because it made you have hyper ventilation not to mention skid marks in your panties.;-). May you never have to have that fear experience (like saying "hello Kitty to a hungry tiger). God Bless to all and theirs.

Goofy(skid marked ) old fart.:D

[muskeg13]

How many posting advice here have ever personally encountered bears out in the open at close pistol range (20 paces or less)? How about at less than 10 paces? Being in a car, truck, boat, plane, house, cabin or blind, or anything else that afforded protection doesn't count.

Been there. Carrying heavy artillery is fine if you are actually bear hunting, but many close encounters occur when you are engaged/distracted doing other activities.

You'd better be familiar with whatever you're packing and be able to get it into action instantaneously.