RCBS 45-225-RN bullet users, help need some advise!

[Vulcan Bob]

Hi all, as usual maybe I'm overthinking this but here goes. Ok cast some RCBS 45-225-RN boolits and sized em to .452" awhile back and finally am getting around to loading some .45ACP and have run into some problems with seating and taper crimp on these guys. First off I'm using a Lyman M type expander with just enough flare to clear the boolit, after sizeing, priming, expanding and charging with 5.0gr of Bullseye it came time to seat the boolits to 1.270" in these once fired Federal case's . Well they are seating crooked with one side of the boolit touching the case and the other a bit clear of the case and are visibly not centered. Ok, checked the seating punch and it did not quite fit the boolit ogive quite right so I rooted around and found that my RCBS seating die I use for the Auto Rim had one that fit nicely. Tried again with the same results, ok perhaps when I taper crimp them to .469" things will straighten out, nope still not centered and still with a bit of a gap on one side. Ok, lets look at the boolit, below the grease groove it measures a nice .452" and just above the grease groove .442", ah-ha here's the problem the boolit tapers down to below the normal bullet diameter past the grease groove. Ok, no problem as we all know most production guns do not headspace on the case mouth anyways and the extractor holds against the breech face tightly enough to let the fireing pin give the primer a lick, so I then reduced taper crimp till I had brass to bullet contact all the way around, crimp wound up at .466". What am I doing wrong or should I just shoot em and see what happens, perhaps much ado about nothing? Any thoughts on this will be appreciated!

[gray wolf]

Man I would stop right now.
first off the extractor does not hold the case against the breach face and if it's a 1911 it does head space on the case mouth. Why are you starting out with a close to max load ?


below the grease groove it measures a nice .452" and just above the grease groove .442", ah-ha here's the problem the boolit tapers down to below the normal bullet diameter past the grease groove. Ok, no problem as we all know most production guns do not headspace on the case mouth anyways and the extractor holds against the breech face tightly enough to let the fireing pin give the primer a lick,

I don't know from who your getting your info but if I were you I would slow down till someone can DE-cipher what your saying.

[runfiverun]

he's saying the boolit in front of the grease groove is too small.
common with these type of molds. [lyman ones are the same way]
you could try seating the boolit out further and keeping the case mouth the proper size.

[Vulcan Bob]

Well, getting my load data from Speer manuals and the latest # 49 Lyman. I've been loading the .45 ACP with 230gr FMJ's out of quite a few varieties of 1911's for over forty years with 5.0gr of Bullseye with no troubles at all, and with a lead bullet weighing five grains less this is not a problem. I have fired thousands of this load with commercially bought 230gr LRN as well. As for the headspace thing, why yes the .45 ACP is supposed to headspace on the case mouth but in reality they rarely do. Measure a few different brands of .45 ACP cases and you will find most to be too short to headspace on the case mouth to begin with. The spec length of the .45 ACP is .898", new Star Line brass is .892", once fired Speer's are .894" and R-P's are .890", obviously these will not headspace on the mouth of the case, but they seem to function just fine and this is why. When the cartridge feeds up out of the magazine the rim slides up between the breech face and the extractor with a certain amount of tension and is held there. This is what holds the case against the breech face and allows the primer to be ignited. With the RCBS-45-225-RN sized to .452" the bullet base is at .452" diameter, it rapidly tapers down to a bullet diameter of .442" just above the grease groove, a .469" taper crimp diameter there is not going to contact the bullet. This is why I wanted to know how other people are dealing with this.
Man I would stop right now.
first off the extractor does not hold the case against the breach face and if it's a 1911 it does head space on the case mouth. Why are you starting out with a close to max load ?


I don't know from who your getting your info but if I were you I would slow down till someone can DE-cipher what your saying.

[Gohon]

Bob is right.....the 45 acp is suppose to head space on the case mouth but they seldom do. Maximum brass SAAMI brass length is .898 which is the head space dimension and minimum length is .888 SAAMI. http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/45%20Automatic.pdf

I've got one 45 acp that is far below the SAAMI specs for OAL in order for it go into battery properly. Seems some of these guns have a mind of their own.

[Airman Basic]

Bob is right.....the 45 acp is suppose to head space on the case mouth but they seldom do. Maximum brass SAAMI brass length is .898 which is the head space dimension and minimum length is .888 SAAMI. http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/45%20Automatic.pdf

I've got one 45 acp that is far below the SAAMI specs for OAL in order for it go into battery properly. Seems some of these guns have a mind of their own.
Accepting your argument, what are my ACPs headspacing on in my Ruger Blackhawk. They seem to hold up to the firing pin and go bang okay. Also, when I use my Sig P220 barrel to do the "plunk" test, they seem to come to a positive stop.

[Gohon]

The Ruger Blackhawk 45 ACP cylinder is specifically designed and cut for the cartridge to head space on the case mouth. Proper feeding and going into battery is not a issue but throat diameter when using over sized casts can be a issue. Anyway, the Blackhawk and a 1911 are two different ball games.

As mentioned earlier, most straight walled rimless pistol cases are designed to headspace on the case mouth. However, for reloaders, the length of a case often varies. Do a barrel drop test (Plunk Test) using a resized empty case and see where the case head ends up. If the case protrudes above the barrel hood then the case is to long. Trim the case to where the rim is even or just ever so slightly below the barrel hood. Trim all future cases to that length for that gun, however I suspect you'll most likely find most brass to be shorter than SAAMI max specs. Now load that same case you measured with and see where it sits with a drop test. If it again protrudes above the barrel hood, then you have a bullet or seating depth problem. The plunk test will check the loaded ammo, not much else.

If the empty case falls below the barrel hood then two things will come into play. The loaded round will either headspace on the bullet ogive at the leade which is a problem, (especially with semi wadcutters) unless proper COAL is determined. Or the cartridge will headspace by extractor tension which is usually the case for a lot of semi autos, especially 1911's.

Remove the slide from you SIG and slide a case under the extractor. If the case is snug against the breach that is what will set headspace.

[Vulcan Bob]

Now that is a good question! I have four of the Ruger Blackhawk .45 Cal. convertible's and I came up with my own conclusions, right or not I'm not sure! I do believe that in the SA Blackhawk the .45 ACP does indeed headspace on the case mouth. Since it does not have an extractor to deal with and taking into account the wide differences in case lengths I can only assume that the space between the fireing pin hole on the faceplate bushing/recoil shield and the head of the case is kept snug and the length of the fireing pin stroke takes care of any small variance. Its like it uses both the chamber shoulder at the front and a rim thickness headspace tolerance similar to a rimmed straight case at the rear to do the job. I do know that things are a bit snug, in using a sharp shoulder SWC the bullet shoulder has to be dang near flush with the case mouth in order to chamber and then clear the recoil shield to allow cylinder rotation. In any case works it does as they shoot the .45ACP quite well indeed.

As for the "plunk" test I have no idea as I never have used it, relying instead on a taper crimp of .469"-.470" and taking into account the bullet profile to ensure chambering. I think the "plunk" test insures the case and bullet are not too big in diameter to allow chambering and since there is nothing in this test such as an extractor present to limit forward movement of the case I guess it would have to stop on the chamber shoulder. Hopefully someone a lot smarter than me can chime in on this one!
Accepting your argument, what are my ACPs headspacing on in my Ruger Blackhawk. They seem to hold up to the firing pin and go bang okay. Also, when I use my Sig P220 barrel to do the "plunk" test, they seem to come to a positive stop.

[gray wolf]

The 1911 does not head space off the extractor, it is held by the extractor the extractor has some wiggle room built into it so the case can move a little. If the case is within Max or Min length it is driven forward by the firing pin and the case mouth contacts the end of the chamber. the firing pin is made long enough to do this.

Long 45 ACP cases are not a common thing, they get shorter as they are loaded and RE-loaded,
so what's the point of trimming them ? After a few RE-loads they are short, at that point we don't through them away do we ? That's why sometimes we find a somewhat light pin strike on some cases, the inertia of the firing pin has moved the case forward within the extractors limitations and the case still fires.

Loading our SWC so the front band contacts the rifling lead and back of the case is held even with the rear of the barrel hood helps to give better and more even ignition / with the case held against the breach face. We don't do this with a RN bullet and the rounds still go bang. It's built into the design of the 1911.
This argument comes up very frequently and some folks cannot get there head around how the 1911 was made to work.

35 Remington who I have much respect for when it comes to the 1911 has explained this over and over.

As to why I asked about the 5 grains of BE ? The way the OP came across in his post led me to believe he was a new re loader, sorry that was my read on it. It was not a hit piece on his ability, sometimes the way things read are not always the way they were intended.

[Vulcan Bob]

No problem Gray wolf! It was however my first time dealing with the RCBS 45-225-RN. Never had quite the same deal with any other boolit and it had me a bit frustrated! When I said I should just shoot em and see what happens I meant for accuracy, guess my writing skills need a bit of work! That's the nice thing about this forum, lots of kind folks around to help when you need it! I just got back into boolit casting last year after a long time and this place has been a great help for my reentry.
The 1911 does not head space off the extractor, it is held by the extractor the extractor has some wiggle room built into it so the case can move a little. If the case is within Max or Min length it is driven forward by the firing pin and the case mouth contacts the end of the chamber. the firing pin is made long enough to do this.

Long 45 ACP cases are not a common thing, they get shorter as they are loaded and RE-loaded,
so what's the point of trimming them ? After a few RE-loads they are short, at that point we don't through them away do we ? That's why sometimes we find a somewhat light pin strike on some cases, the inertia of the firing pin has moved the case forward within the extractors limitations and the case still fires.

Loading our SWC so the front band contacts the rifling lead and back of the case is held even with the rear of the barrel hood helps to give better and more even ignition / with the case held against the breach face. We don't do this with a RN bullet and the rounds still go bang. It's built into the design of the 1911.
This argument comes up very frequently and some folks cannot get there head around how the 1911 was made to work.

35 Remington who I have much respect for when it comes to the 1911 has explained this over and over.

As to why I asked about the 5 grains of BE ? The way the OP came across in his post led me to believe he was a new re loader, sorry that was my read on it. It was not a hit piece on his ability, sometimes the way things read are not always the way they were intended.

[Scharfschuetze]

Vulcan Bob,

I've used that same RCBS 45-225-RN mold for about 40 years now (got my money's worth out of it) and I've never had an issue with it seating off kilter like that. I've used both RCBS and Dillon dies without issues. The difference between our loads seems to be the Lyman M Die. Do you still have an expander die other than the M Die for the 45 ACP? If so, give that a try and see if that solves the problem.

A second thought might be that the expander plug in the M Die is not screwed up tight and if loose, may be canting under pressure and thus giving you a non-concentric expansion.

[mdi]

Well, getting my load data from Speer manuals and the latest # 49 Lyman. I've been loading the .45 ACP with 230gr FMJ's out of quite a few varieties of 1911's for over forty years with 5.0gr of Bullseye with no troubles at all, and with a lead bullet weighing five grains less this is not a problem. I have fired thousands of this load with commercially bought 230gr LRN as well. As for the headspace thing, why yes the .45 ACP is supposed to headspace on the case mouth but in reality they rarely do. Measure a few different brands of .45 ACP cases and you will find most to be too short to headspace on the case mouth to begin with. The spec length of the .45 ACP is .898", new Star Line brass is .892", once fired Speer's are .894" and R-P's are .890", obviously these will not headspace on the mouth of the case, but they seem to function just fine and this is why. When the cartridge feeds up out of the magazine the rim slides up between the breech face and the extractor with a certain amount of tension and is held there. This is what holds the case against the breech face and allows the primer to be ignited. With the RCBS-45-225-RN sized to .452" the bullet base is at .452" diameter, it rapidly tapers down to a bullet diameter of .442" just above the grease groove, a .469" taper crimp diameter there is not going to contact the bullet. This is why I wanted to know how other people are dealing with this.
Well Bob, the only thing different in your reloading the 45 ACP is the mold. Prior to using this mold/bullet everything was good, right? For some reason yer getting bullets that "don't fit". I have 3 molds for my 45s and none have a .010" difference in band diameters. I'd start there, mebbe send the mold back to RCBS?

[Gohon]

After a few RE-loads they are short, at that point we don't through them away do we ? That's why sometimes we find a somewhat light pin strike on some cases, the inertia of the firing pin has moved the case forward within the extractors limitations and the case still fires.

If this is correct and as mentioned before that cases are not always at the SAAMI spec length for proper case mouth head spacing, isn't the round now head spacing off the as you say limitation of the extractor? Seems to me if the case can't move forward enough upon be struck by the firing to properly head space in the chamber then that is exactly what is happening.

[Airman Basic]

The 1911 does not head space off the extractor, it is held by the extractor the extractor has some wiggle room built into it so the case can move a little. If the case is within Max or Min length it is driven forward by the firing pin and the case mouth contacts the end of the chamber. the firing pin is made long enough to do this.
Now that's an explanation I can get my feeble thought process around. Thanks:lovebooli

[gray wolf]

If this is correct and as mentioned before that cases are not always at the SAAMI spec length for proper case mouth head spacing, isn't the round now head spacing off the as you say limitation of the extractor? Seems to me if the case can't move forward enough upon be struck by the firing to properly head space in the chamber then that is exactly what is happening.
If you RE-read my post I think I said that if the cases were within MIN, and MAX length the firing pin would reach the primer, the wiggle room built into the extractor allows for MIN, and Max, case length.
Naturally if a case is way short it will not reach the end of the chamber.

[Gohon]

Gray Wolf, I read your post a couple times before posting and understood what you were saying so I don't need to re-read it. It's this supposed built in wiggle room built into the extractor that is confusing. Never heard that claimed by anyone before. Trust me....I'm not trying to argue with anyone here but to simply attempt to understand a new claim to me. As we all know, the .45 ACP case is supposed to headspace on the cartridge mouth, and it does, but if you make the cartridge quite a bit too short, it will still work properly. This is because the 1911 pistol features "controlled feed." That is, the cartridge being stripped out of the magazine slides up the slide's breechface and under the extractor claw long before it ever fully chambers.

Now lets say the pistol has a chamber at minimum specs and a case at maximum specs according to SAAMI. That means the firing pin is capable of indenting the primer .023 inches plus the wiggle room available to the extractor you say it has. How much is that wiggle room? Isn't the danger now possible pierced primers? The 1911 I've owned seem to be built very forgiving concerning case length. Seems it is the COAL and bullet design that gets one into trouble.

I've inserted a cartridge under the extractor on my guns and there is no wiggle room. They are tight agonist the breech face. There is no way the cartridge can move past the extractor and though the case might be below SAAMI specs the gun still fires. Sorry....I'm a slow learner but the term wiggle room of the extractor is confusing to me.

[gray wolf]

perhaps 35 REMINGTON will indulge us and explain it a different way, believe me when he took the time to spell it out my head was in my hand.
I fought this augment for years till the light went on. But as long as things are working I guess we can hold off till the last chip falls.

[Pilgrim]

Go back to the first post. The problem is with boolit alignment. The problem is with the dies. I'd start looking at the belling die first. Make sure the belling "plug" is in alignment with the stem. Put the stem and expander plug into a drill, or drill press, or ? and spin it. If it spins true, the stem and plug are OK. If not, you've found at least part of, if not all of your problem. If it's OK, then on to the next check. First step would to trim one sized case to the length you would like the "bell" to extend into the case. The trimmed case mouth has to be square! Insert the case into the shellholder and screw the expander down until it meets the case mouth firmly and then tighten the stem. Bell a resized case and seat a boolit using your normal method and die. If the boolit is aligned, you've found your problem. The stem and plug were out of whack. If the boolit is still out of alignment, then move on to the seating die. Follow the same process as with the expander die. One additional check is to make sure the seating stem "hollow" is machined true. The eyeball test should be good enuf here. If neither of the dies is out of whack, then either the press is out of whack (not likely) or the mould is making out of whack boolits. Both of these are unlikely, but...after this I'm stumped. Pilgrim

[JRR]

I agree completely with Pilgrim although I would put more weight on the mould. The diameter just above the groove should be very close to the lower band.

1911s will definitely head space with the extractor. In the Jul/Aug, 1991 issue of "Handloader", Ken Waters did a test of the 40S&W in a Colt 10mm pistol. In the 10mm chamber, the much shorter 40 functioned perfectly with very good accuracy.

[35remington]

In terms of 1911 45 ACP head spacing, case mouth or bullet headspacing is far, far more common than extractor headspacing, for the simple reason that the extractor doesn't provide a "stop" to headspace the case until the case is well beyond the breechface.

Even given a long chamber and a short case. You'd need a quite extreme example of each before extractor headspacing can occur in a 1911. The why, exactly, has to do with those very same tolerances everyone talks about. The extractor/breechface gap is intentionally toleranced to be longer than even a short case/long chamber combination.. You need a quite short case to headspace on the extractor, shorter, in fact than the vast majority found in most handlloader's collections.

It is easy to determine if the gun is headspacing on case or bullet. Simple measurement will tell if this is happening. Same with extractor headspacing.

[Vulcan Bob]

Although I use this particular Lyman M die with the .45 Colt, .45 Schofield, and the .45 ACP with no prior problems at all I checked out things as Pilgrim suggested and it seemed to check out fine. I'm now leaning towards the bullet/mold itself. at a diameter of .442" immediately above the grease groove its just not giving me anything to work with concerning seating and crimp. I think JJR and mdi may have nailed it. With the only part of the bullet at correct diameter being the narrow base band no wonder it will not seat straight or give me anything to crimp onto. I am going to give RCBS a call and see if I can talk to someone about this mold. Thank you all for the info!
I agree completely with Pilgrim although I would put more weight on the mould. The diameter just above the groove should be very close to the lower band.

1911s will definitely head space with the extractor. In the Jul/Aug, 1991 issue of "Handloader", Ken Waters did a test of the 40S&W in a Colt 10mm pistol. In the 10mm chamber, the much shorter 40 functioned perfectly with very good accuracy.

[35remington]

Reckon this gap. The gap is quite large before the extractor headspaces.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC02342.jpg[/URL]

[35remington]

There's nothing wrong with the mould. The nose is dimensioned to give a ball like overall length without intruding upon the leade. O.442" is intentional and well less than land to land diameter.

Wait a minute! I reread the earlier posts and you say .442" on the band above the grease groove, not the bullet nose. That's not right, I agree.

That's why I'm editing. I misunderstood.

[Gohon]

Well.....they say a picture is worth a thousand words and I can certainly see a gap, just how much I can't tell by the picture. I've got a set of wire feeler gauges out in the garage so I'm going to pull the slide from the Taurus I have in my nightstand and see if I can measure anything. I guess it is possible the case head on the empty brass I used was boogered up and that is why I could see no gap or feel any movement.

[35remington]

When measuring this dimension, ensure the extractor is fully forward in its tunnel as it would be on the extremely rare occasion it would serve to act as a headspace stop and resist the blow of the firing pin.

[Gohon]

Interesting read here from IAAC http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_6-6-3_CastHandgun.htm which contradicts some posts. Doesn't mention anything about built in free play or wiggle room of the extractor. Something to chew on......

" 1911 Head-spacing Method
Norm Johnson

The .45ACP 1911 was designed by John Browning to headspace on the case mouth but in fact it rarely works this way. The case head is really held against the breech by the extractor. To prove this to yourself, measure the length of a dozen .45ACP cases. You will discover that the cases are all (even newly manufactured ones) considerably shorter than SAAMI specs call for. The resultant headspace clearance would be greater than the maximum allowed, yet the ammo will shoot fine with no stretching of cases or incipient head separation, even after many firings.

Since 1911 barrels from Colt and other suppliers are normally chambered longer than necessary, and with the additional complication of the short cases, some of us seat our bullets to a length that allows the cartridge to headspace on the bullet. This approach allows for a more consistent firing pin strike and therefore a more consistent powder burn. Accuracy is dependent upon consistent ignition more than many shooters realize; a good reason, incidentally, to keep the firing mechanism of pistols clean. Modern rifles, having a much stronger firing chain, are not quite so subject to congealed lubricants and imbedded dust.

To accomplish the above head-spacing approach, remove the barrel from your 1911 and then alternately seat the bullet deeper into the case and drop it into the chamber until the case base is just flush with the lip that protrudes from the barrel. Do this with each bullet type that you use in that firearm and either record the OAL or keep a dummy round as a reference. If you seat the bullet too far out, the pistol will not lock up properly and therefore will not fire when the trigger is pulled.

Some will respond that the above will call for a cartridge that is too long to properly fit in the magazine. However, the above procedure has been used by the author for about 35 years with about every bullet imaginable in approximately 14 .45 ACP barrels and magazines have accepted all without exception. As a matter of fact, in all instances, the bullet could be seated too long in its case to allow proper locking of the action before magazine interference became a problem"

God Bless! Norm

"I have used the "headspace on the bullet" for the .45 ACP for over twenty years. In a five year period, I shot 75,000 rounds. The method works - my findings parallel Norm Johnson's."
R. Dale McGee"

[35remington]

Norm Johnson is absolutely, positively, dead flat wrong when he asserts the 1911 headspaces more often on the extractor than anything else. He has neither done any measurement nor anything else to arrive at a correct conclusion. Norm may know a lot of things very well, but how the 1911 headspaces isn't one of them.

I've known about that post of his for some time........and it's been wrong ever since he wrote it.

Dale's agreement is with the bullet headspacing method, not Norm's findings that the extractor headspaces most often, which it does not.

Charles Petty had to recant in Handloader magazine when he said the 1911 headspaces most often on the extractor. Pearce and Scovill had to set him straight.

Let's do some measuring, shall we?

The average extractor at its mid spec length holds the case rim about 0.043-0.046" from the breechface. In the worst case, it can't hold it any closer than about 0.040" to the breechface, not including any springing if/when it functions as a headspacing surface under the blow of a firing pin. The average, mid spec measurement of headspace, min to max, is supposed to range from 0.898" to as long as 0.920" and still be within spec....but it's not surprising that most I've measured have been right in the middle at .907 to .911", just as you'd expect. That's what tolerances do.....steer you toward the middle.

Now, given those mid spec measurements, it would take a case length of in the vicinity of .867" or so to approach the middle of the range.

Measure your cases and see how many are that short. Even a long headspace measurement will require a shorter than average case to headspace on the extractor. And, in reality, most headspace measurements aren't that long.

Norm doesn't mention free play or wiggle room for the extractor because he hasn't the faintest idea it exists, or he wouldn't have made such a statement in the first place. Of the autoloading pistols, the 1911 is one of the least likely to allow extractor headspacing because of its very generous gap between breechface and extractor hook.

Sorry, but Norm Johnson is far less than an authoritative source here. Measure your own chambers and any hood/breechface gap to determine what case length would finally be short enough to engage the extractor before it seats against the shoulder of the chamber. Here's a hint.........it won't be the vast majority of your cases, the vast majority of the time, for the vast majority of 1911 shooters.

Headspace length is distance from stop shoulder to breechface, including any gap between barrel and hood. This can be reasonably approximated with the depth measuring slide on your calipers and a feeler gauge between barrel hood and breechface when the gun is in battery.

I've measured a lot of Colt and other make barrels. Very few are chambered longer than necessary. Measure some sometime. First stop shoulder to hood, then get a stab at gap between hood and breech. Then you'll know.

[35remington]

To clarify:

The 1911 was designed by John Browning to headspace on the case mouth, at least with ball ammo. It very much most frequently works that way.

Handloaders, by dint of bullet depth adjustment, may also accomplish headspacing on the bullet if seated long enough. Both situations are far more common than extractor headspacing in 45 ACP 1911's.

All things have tolerances. The gap between breech and extractor in the 1911 has been deliberately toleranced such that extractor headspacing does not happen very often. This should not be very surprising.

Cases don't have to be "a little" shorter than the SAAMI spec to headspace on the extractor. They have to be a LOT shorter.

[35remington]

And, since only sized cases get headspaced and fired, measure your case collection after it's been sized. Find your shortest one.....after you size it. Separate cases into a group based on length and see what you get. Include old sized cases as well as newer sized cases.

They shrink several thou on firing, and grow several thou on sizing (see this for yourself measuring length before and after sizing). A sized case is the only kind a 1911 will ever fire.