Woods/Mountain Defense: Handgun Boolits Are No Rifle Boolits

[Southern Shooter]

Thinking in terms of woods/mountain defense:
Since it seems obvious that a boolit fired from a handgun (no matter the caliber) will never match the shock and damage that can be caused by a boolit fired from a rifle...

In creating a load, what should be the goal of a handgun in self-defense against large aggressive animals?

--Penetration in hopes of striking something of importance in the oncoming animal and quickly shutting it down?

--A hole large enough to allow massive bleeding?

--Both?

--What is realistic to achieve?

[jmort]

Google Linebaugh Seminars Bone Box test results. I would rather have a .45 Colt with an LBT Boolit or better yet a Punch bullet than an expanding .30-06

[Larry Gibson]

Both are easy enough to achieve with the 44 Magnum with a bullet such as the 429640HP "Devestator" from Lyman. Mine weight 270 gr fully dressed and it runs 1350 fps from my 6 1/2" Ruger BHFT and 1175 fps from my 4" Anaconda. The claims of "HPs blow up on the surface" are false with such a cast bullet of the correct alloy. Using the correct alloy is not rocket science either and there is no need not to. Even if the HP fails to expand the nose shape is the then the same as a WFN so you'd then have the benefit of that bullet.

Larry Gibson

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[Love Life]

I've carried many handguns and calibers for woods and mountain defense here in the Sierra Nevada and Pine Nut mountains. I've carried the Model 28 loaded with 38 specials 175 gr 358429 over 5 gr of Unique, Colt Commander in 45 ACP 230 gr RN over 5.0 gr of bullseye, a Freedom arms in 454 Casull with the Lee 452-255-rf over a spooky amount of 2400, a delta Elite with the Lee 175-TC over a spooky amount of 800X, and now a S&W 1026 10mm with the RCBS 200-LSWC of 12.5 gr of AA#9.

I have a couple goals for guns, bullets, and cartridge performance:
Gun goals:
It works
It hits where it aims
It works

Bullets:
They leave the barrel
They go where aimed
They poke holes in stuff

Cartridge performance:
They fire
They hold the bullet until fired
They don't blow up
They put the bullet where aimed

I've felt very comfortable carrying all of the above handguns, cartridges, and loads to protect myself and my family. While one stop shots are really cool, In all of those guns I have several follow up shots available. I was once told something by a Captain that sticks with me this day "Get on the trigger and stay on the trigger until th threat is dead or no longer a threat." Keeping that in mind I will just empty whatever I have into the threat at hand. Additionally holes kill stuff.

What is important with all the above handguns is I can draw them fast and put all of my shots in a good kill zone ina pretty quick amount of time.

Granted the only threat where I play are mountain lions and black bears so that is what works for my area. If I were in Alaska then I would probably have a Glock 20 loaded with a magazine full of Nuclear 10mm ammo.

Just my opinion and not the gospel.

[DanWalker]

My answer is simple. The largest caliber you can ACCURATELY shoot under stress. I'm not talking 50-60 percent accuracy on a bullseye. I'm talking about drawing aiming and firing at a moving target VERY quickly. I see lots of guys around here who buy 7 1/2" barreled hand cannons for "Bear protection" and can't keep six shots in an 8" bullseye slow fire at 10 yards! You can't miss fast enough with a big enough bullet to do any damage. Bears and hogs and critters that mean you harm are utterly unimpressed with ballistics tables and muzzle blast. The other aspect of defense against critters is that you need to STAND YOUR GROUND. You need to be ready and not panic. Yeah you're gonna be scared spitless. I have been charged twice by hogs intent on tearing me up, and was once run over by a sounder of pigs that I accidentally cornered. I'm not spouting armchair theory. I don't count myself an expert by a long shot. You are only going to get one chance at this. You gotta set your mind right and be ready to fight. Panicked spraying of bullets does you no good. Watch the experienced African PH's and see how they react to a charge. They get set and WAIT for it. They line up on the critter as he comes at them and wait for a sure shot. You cannot count on ANY caliber handgun to drop a charging animal. You must make CNS hits. Break his neck or spine or blow his brains out. Anything else and you're gonna get hit. A dying bear or hog can do quite a bit of damage before he bleeds out. I carry a 45 LC stoked with 320 grain hammer boolits loaded to 1000 FPS when I'm only carrying a shortgun in bear country(Hardly ever) The rest of the(non grizzly infested) backcountry sees me with my Kimber 45 with 200 grain lead SWC's on my belt.

[Pb2au]

As stated above,
1) Use something that you can draw, aim and fire effectively. That is to say, put the bullet(s) where it needs to go in a timely manner.
2) Taking a creature's life involves dropping the blood pressure to shut down the brain. Nothing more. How quickly that happens depends on many things, but mostly (in my mind) on Point 1.
3) Indeed the construction of the bullet helps point 2 quite a bit. If you live in Alaska, the odds of getting nommed on by an irritated grizzly bear are way higher than say in Ohio in my case. I deal mostly with the odd feral dog, coyote (they are getting quite cheeky here), and your usual two legged variety. So, if you are in an area where there are no giant bears, tigers, rabid water buffalo, then something like LL described, 38/357, or as Larry suggested a 44mag might just be the ticket. Any of those with proper alloyed mild meplat boolit and a manageable dose of powder will end a lot of arguments with critters.
My woods pistol is a simple Ruger Blackhawk, 5.5" barrel to keep it handy, chambered in 45 colt. I use the Lee 255 RNFP with a standard dose of 2400. If I need more than that, I am probably not in Ohio anymore, or something got loose from the Columbus Zoo.
4)More of a reiteration of point one. Practice, practice and practice more. Get good with your gun. Make it put bullets where you want.

This my 2 centavos.

[Love Life]

Most important is to ensure you have your gun on you. A good belt and a good holster are worth every penny you spend on them. I like products from Springfield (Whyte Leather Works), Mernickle, and I plan to try wright leather works in the near future.

Then you have to make sure your gun is accessable. If using a pack then a good chest rig is perfect, but a belt holster is legit as well.

[Southern Shooter]

This is the rig I chose. It DOES make a difference. It really fits any outdoor activity that I enjoy.
101304

[Pb2au]

I currently use belt holster, but boy oh boy that chest rig looks like the ticket. I wonder if my 5.5" black hawk would be too long for something like that. I must investigate this further.

[Southern Shooter]

The chest rig is made by Diamond D Custom Leather. They make these rigs for a large number of guns. Great folks. The owner, Dave, is very courteous and was responsive to my holster order.
http://www.diamonddcustomleather.com/Chest_Holsters.php

[Pb2au]

Many thanks Southern Shooter for the link. This bears investigation.

[ksfowler166]

My two cents is that accuracy is key. Letting the animal bleed out is a dangerous mistake. For sake of argument lets say the animal will be unconscious in 30 sec. of being hit and dead within 60 sec. these numbers may be conservative I am not real sure. But more to the point due you really want a exceedingly mad boar or such trying to gore you for 30 seconds before it loses conscious? The only sure way to put an animal down quickly is to;
A)Disrupt the nerve impulses to the body, this means a brain or spinal cord shot.
B)Prevent the animal from moving, this means taking out both shoulders either front(preferably) or rear.

Penetration and a large hole are great but remember adrenaline oxygenates the blood meaning there is more oxygen in the brain. As long as there is oxygen in the brain the animal is still capable of killing you. An extreme example would be the animal has bleed out, you hit the heart, and collapsed both lungs but it still has oxygen in its brain, it can kill you until the oxygen is used up since you failed to achieve A or B.

As you can tell the effect of shock is not factored into this since it is a case by case thing.

[Love Life]

Killing is real easy and often over complicated for some reason.

Empty the gun into the animal. If animal is facing head on aim for the nose and start squeezing off your rds. If you can keep them all in the head (probably not because the animal will move) then cool, if the animal turns or drops after the 1st shot then keep perforating it in it's bone structure and dome piece. Shoulders, hips, etc. I'd be emptying my gun into the animal from the shoulders up. That's the shoulders, neck, and head.

Seriously, dump the cylinder or mag into the animal. Do not let off the gun until you hear a click, then reload, rinse, and repeat. Easy day.


I'm enjoying this thread. I sincerely hope this will help prevent people from getting wrapped around the axle with a "1 shot stop". Nobody says you can shoot only once. Shoot the bear, mountain lion, T-Rex 50 times if needed. Ya'll remember that grizzley that was killed with 5.45X39?

[Pb2au]

I just was thinking in context of my environment....
I am far more likely to have to deal with feral dogs than most other threats. To that observation, the repeated points from above of learning to shoot well VS horsepower in a load makes even more sense. Most of the dogs I have had to shoot are your average sized mutt, say 40-60 pounds. And they do move around quite a bit. And quickly I might add. In more than one time grouse hunting, our bird dogs were set upon by two or more ferals. That's why pop always carried a pistol.
So the long winded point is that it is not enough to simply pop some holes in a piece of paper (in my mind) at eye level. I practice by tossing clay pigeons at random spots and distances throughout my range and work on acquiring and shooting them.

[onceabull]

No matter Rifle or short gun, a # of people have been maimed/killed because the shot(s) they got off on a charging bear went clear over high,or cut hair /creased top of skull.. Hit them square on the end of the nose with what you have in hand... Onceabull

[DanWalker]

The son of a guy I know had to shoot a griz that charged him up on Union pass a number of years ago. He surprised the bear at close range while elk hunting. He had just enough time to swivel his rifle off of his shoulder and fire it in the bears face from the hip. He hit the bear just inside the eye socket with a 300wsm. The bear dropped at the shot and he emptied the rest of the rounds from the rifle into the top of the bears head. It literally landed between his feet when the first shot struck. I saw the pics they took to document the incident in case of legal trouble. VERY scary stuff

[HABCAN]

Boolit lots more likely to travel up nasal passage than through frontal skull plate................

[Love Life]

Only hits count!!

[DanWalker]

I have seriously been considering a Serbu shotgun for backpacking. GREAT combination of firepower and compactness. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_pXTItRtkc

[Love Life]

Those Serbu shotguns look pretty cool!! I'd like to have one if it weren't such a hassle.

[DanWalker]

Getting the tax stamp isn't too much hassle in Wyoming. It's just a LONG wait for the paperwork. I think a super shorty shotgun on a single point sling would be hard to beat for backpacking. Not much heavier than the mega magnum handguns and a buttload easier to score hits with when things get dicey. I'd think alternating loads of buck and slugs would be a GREAT comfort in that situation....

[Bullshop]

My view for the use you described, COMPLETE PENITRATION FROM ANY ANGLE!
I lived in Alaska and worked in the timber even longer. My job as a timber faller in the Tongas National Forest had me working with the big bears nearly every day. I have run from many and also killed in self defense. I have also had to go in and clean up others messes after shooting bears with cartridges with inadequate penetration.
For my money for the situation you described I want a large caliber 44 minimum heavy non expanding bullet with reasonably large meplate but not too large 60 to 70% is enough. Too much meplate acts much like an expanding bullet and may decrease penetration. I want to be able to point at a vital area and have the bullet reach it no matter what angle it must enter from. If you shoot and don't reach the vital its going to be a long dance. Unless you hit spine or brain even with a fat hole through the good stuff you will still need your dancing shoes.
I have had to get it done with a hand gun before but I much prefer a rifle. A regular companion for me was a Marlin 94 in 44 mag loaded with the Lee 310gn wfn to 1700 fps. 10 of those in the tube instills confidence.

[Love Life]

Didn't a bear steal your sandwich?

[Bullshop]

Didn't a bear steal your sandwich?
Tried to steal my sandwich but failed.

[Love Life]

Nice!

[Bullshop]

Well you know there was only one sandwich and both of us wanted it so one of us had to die.
Ruger Redhawk 5", 250gn Keith, 21gn 2400 proved adequate.

[DanWalker]

*mental note* DON'T TOUCH DAN'S SAMMICH!

[runfiverun]

my general carry in bear/wolf area is my dan Wesson stainless 445 with the 4" barrel on it.
it's simple, double action, rugged, and reliable.
i carry 300 gr jacketed flat points in it, they don't expand and just flat penetrate.
I have some 315's I may do some more testing with later, but they have lead exposed at the tip and will open on impact with solid dirt.
the load is not some whomping screamer it's 11 grs of unique.
I can shoot it well enough to hit a pie plate at 30 yds and do it one after the other by bringing the gun back down from recoil and touching the next shot off.
the gun wears white outline rear and bright orange front sight.
I can find that front sight pretty quickly against just about any back-round except straight bright snow covered white in bright sunshine.

[dk17hmr]

I like my Glock 10mm a lot....its easy to carry, I am fast, and accurate with it. 200gr WFN in the 1240fps range with 1 in the tube and 15 in the mag and another mag with another 15 rounds sure feels good on my belt when I am in the mountains.....I'm more worried about walking up on a meth lab or a still than I am about bears.

I have a 454 that hangs out in the safe.

[Bullshop]

When we first moved to Alaska I had a short barrel double in 45/70. Sometimes I would set out on foot for a several day walkabout.
When ever I did I would load the double 45/70 with tri ball loads in each barrel. I told Tina that when I am gone if a bear ever tries to get in the house when it is coming through the door pull back both hammers and when you cant miss pull both triggers.
That's 6 45 cal holes all at once. That should drop his oil pressure quick. Never did have to use it.

[Love Life]

Would she kill over a sandwich?

[Bullshop]

She aint much for killing but surprised me the other day when I herd her tell a neighbor lady that if she caught me cheating like the neighbor lady did he husband she would just shoot me.
That and maybe like I have told folks don't ever get between a cow moose and her baby. Your chances might be better with the moose.

[MtGun44]

Depends on which handgun and which rifle.

Frankly, the gun needs to be ON YOUR BODY or it will be unusable many times. No rifle
can do this, AFAIK. .44 Mag 250-300 flat point or .45 Colt ('magnum') loads with similar
weight and design boolits will penetrate straight and extremely deeply, like 2 ft to 3 ft.
Few expanding bullet rifles will match this penetration.

Bill

[Bullshop]

That is exactly right. I once had to stop a wounded caribou that was shot by my client when I was guiding. The caribou was not dead and the client didn't want another hole in his trophy so he wouldn't shoot it again.
I was packing a Ruger Bisley 45 Colt loaded with a Saco 300gn Keith type boolit. The muzzle velocity was 1000 fps. When I walked up to the caribou it got up and started walking straight away. It just kept walking slowly and at about 50 yards I had to try to stop it from getting any farther away. I aimed at the tail and touched a shot and the caribou dropped. When my packer came over he told me he watched the shot and when I fired he saw the hide stretch out on the chest then a puff of hair. That boolit penetrated the length of the caribou and exited.
Still though a big bear has thicker hide and heavier muscle and bone so seem to stop bullets faster than a caribou. But the thing that surprised me was that boolit went through the paunch which is like 50 pounds of water logged hay.

[DanWalker]

I'm more worried about walking up on a meth lab or a still than I am about bears.


YUP! Even in the wilds of Wyoming, your chances of running into trouble from 2 legged varmints are far greater than the 4 legged ones.

[DougGuy]

Dan would you be kind enough to post up a pic of your 320gr hammer boolit? Tks!

We don't have anything here in the woods of central North Carolina that my EDC .45 auto won't stop quick enough so I reckon it's enough gun for the territory and I can draw it and get off aimed fire or reflex fire plenty fast enough. Reflex fire = Point and shoot, using the slide and forearm to sight with, never taking your eyes off the target.

Had I the chance to go into more dangerous country, I have the .44 Mag and .45 Colt both loaded with hard cast Lee RF boolits and hefty charges of H110.

[DanWalker]

Dan would you be kind enough to post up a pic of your 320gr hammer boolit? Tks!

We don't have anything here in the woods of central North Carolina that my EDC .45 auto won't stop quick enough so I reckon it's enough gun for the territory and I can draw it and get off aimed fire or reflex fire plenty fast enough. Reflex fire = using the slide and forearm to sight with, never taking your eyes off the target.

Had I the chance to go into more dangerous country, I have the .44 Mag and .45 Colt both loaded with hard cast Lee RF boolits and hefty charges of H110.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?132501-Mihec-45Hammer-Boolit-Mold&highlight=

[BruceB]

First: From personal experience on about a half-dozen big animals, a Lyman 429244 (265 grains in my alloy) loaded in a Super Blackhawk to near-maximum level.....

POSITIVELY WILL completely penetrate adult moose and Wood Bison. That is, IN one side and OUT the other, through the shoulders. I see no need whatever for any heavier bullet, based on that performance. That amount of penetration will reach vitals from any angle.

Defensive shooting against animals is much like it is against humans. Comments here by Love Life and others are absolutely correct: SHOOT UNTIL THE THREAT IS OVER! Rounds left in the gun do you no good at all..... put them ALL into the critter, and THEN RELOAD.

In the closest scrape of my life, I put four .303 rounds into a big oncoming bear at muzzle-flash range...maybe four feet. The first round was undoubtedly fatal, but I was in no mood to stand around and await results. A fifth round was added after the bruin was down, just on general principles. I was very accomplished with the Lee Enfield in those days, thanks to the Canadian Army, and I SWEAR there were at least three empty cases in the air before the first one hit the ground... a little incentive really helps, y'know?

[WRideout]

First: From personal experience on about a half-dozen big animals, a Lyman 429244 (265 grains in my alloy) loaded in a Super Blackhawk to near-maximum level.....

POSITIVELY WILL completely penetrate adult moose and Wood Bison. That is, IN one side and OUT the other, through the shoulders. I see no need whatever for any heavier bullet, based on that performance. That amount of penetration will reach vitals from any angle.

Defensive shooting against animals is much like it is against humans. Comments here by Love Life and others are absolutely correct: SHOOT UNTIL THE THREAT IS OVER! Rounds left in the gun do you no good at all..... put them ALL into the critter, and THEN RELOAD.

In the closest scrape of my life, I put four .303 rounds into a big oncoming bear at muzzle-flash range...maybe four feet. The first round was undoubtedly fatal, but I was in no mood to stand around and await results. A fifth round was added after the bruin was down, just on general principles. I was very accomplished with the Lee Enfield in those days, thanks to the Canadian Army, and I SWEAR there were at least three empty cases in the air before the first one hit the ground... a little incentive really helps, y'know?

I read once that during WWI at the Battle of the Somme, the Germans thought the British Enfields were actually machine guns, they fired so fast.
Wayne

[Pb2au]

Tried to steal my sandwich but failed.

Bears apparently also like pic-a-nic baskets. Or at least popular legend supports that theory.

We don't have a lot of bears here in Ohio. We do have some that escaped from West by God Virginia. But typically, they are pretty shy and avoid people.

[reloader28]

A friend of mine shot a coyote eating on the backend of a dead cow with the big Lee RF in 45 Colt going right at 1000fps.
About 50yds, it almost turned the coyote inside out.
The boolit continued thru the cow lengthwise until it hit a front leg bone and went down into the mud about 12".
On a black angus, thats a fair amount of penetration.


I want to add that ringlercustomleather.com has an awesome chest holster. Its called a Wyoming Combination Holster.
You can use it for cross, strong, shoulder and chest draw. Very cool holster.
Hes a friend of mine and I can tell you, these things are the best.

[NVScouter]

Dan's first post sums it all up. My choice is 45LC 340g LFN at 1100fps 4" Redhawk. While I choose accuracy over power most of the time this revolver is set up for bear/moose/bison defense mainly. I can shoot a 15y pie plate fast fire with 6 hits double action. Slow fire is good at 50y and difficult at 100y.

The only thing I've had to use it defensively for was a large dog however. I'd like to keep it that way too.

I really need that hammer mold its what I've been looking for and somehow I missed that buy. A 3 banger with HP/FN would be ideal dropping .460ish for my 45LCs and 45-70s.

[Love Life]

I now want to put together a Glock 20 Longslide. I blame this thread...

[Bullshop]

Because I make boolits for sale I have 45 cal molds that run 300, 320, 340, and 390gn as well as the more conventional 45 stuff.
I make them because people ask for them.
As far as what is needed I am with Bruce B accept my personal preference weight is 300gn. At some point in my timber falling career shortly after an experience with a bear I wanted a hand gun that would give traditional 45/70 ballistics. I ended up with an early FA 454 shooting my 390gn boolit at 1350 fps from a 6" barrel. I felt very confident carrying that at work each day until one day on a lunch break I decided to pop off a couple shots just for fun. My discovery that the FA revolver would not function was quite a shock and surprise. The FA revolver had such close tolerance's that under every day field conditions where it would get dirty rendered that revolver little better than a stone. For that reason I went back to Ruger revolvers and have never had the experience again. After the experience with the caribou mentioned earlier I felt there was a practical limit to what is needed and going beyond that in boolit weight and velocity may become more of a detriment.
If I were to add to my first post it would be in performance parameters and for myself set that at about 250 to 300 gn boolit weight at 1000 to 1300 fps being adequate but wouldn't pair the lighter weight with the lower velocity.
Everyone gets to set their own parameters so if mine don't seem to fit use what does fit. There are so many other things that can go wrong you may do well to keep a lucky rabbits foot with what ever ammo you use.

[AlaskanGuy]

+1 to what bullshop says.... And I would add, practice, practice, practice.... Get your boolit chosen, and work with it till you can point and shoot and hit what your aiming at in a hurry... In a heavy brush situation, time is an issue, and could get you... So practice pulling out of your rig, whatever it is... And hit what you aim at... In a hurry, but without panic... Prepare yourself mentally, and that happens through repetition... Make it so you just know what to do, so it is more of an automatic response... I love my 44 lee 310 combo...

AG

[cwheel]

The lions that came this way after last summers fires must have returned to your side of the hill LL, no reports of livestock kills here most of the winter. With goats and some houses within 400 yards, we keep a 870 loaded with buckshot to manage unwelcome guests. Different considerations when other houses are close. We haven't had to fire a shot so far, but some around us have lost stock, mostly sheep. Of the 5 lions, 1 killed, 1 trapped, 3 at large still. Most of us in this little area think Fish and Wildlife grossly understated the lion population in between LL and I. Will be interesting this summer after the fire, and in a drought. Thinking lots of critters will come down on both sides of the hill here looking for something to eat. Prospecting in the summer, I never go out unarmed, minimum a 1911.
Chris

[Love Life]

There is a bunch of mountain lion sign in Jack wright pass. It looks like 2 lions have taken up residence in that area. Scat, prints, etc. Also, be careful in Risue Canyon. A HUGE one cut my tracks about 400 yds behind me while I was setting up my target plate. I had put the stand up and turned to get the steel plate, and it ran across the southern edge of the dry lake bed right across my tracks. I screamed like a girl, drew the colt, jumped in the truck, and glassed the sagebrush ocean for about 30 minutes.

[starmac]

That is not the first report I have heard of the FA's not functioning under field conditions.

[cwheel]

Just wait for summer, thinking contacts are going to greatly increase due to the drought and changes in game patterns as the lions look for something to eat. This is not a place to go out unarmed. Try to not go out prospecting alone lately, with a small engine running, hard to hear anything coming up on you, best to have a partner watching your back. Don't know how it is on your side of the hill, but it sounds like we have a big crop of coyotes that have moved into the area as well. Won't be locking the shotgun back into the safe anytime soon on this side of the hill.

Chris

[Southern Shooter]

Currently, the combination that I can comfortably manage accurately in a fast-paced situation is the Lee 452-255-RF dropping at 265 grains with COWW loaded on top of Blue Dot at a little over 1,200 FPS. I hope that it will do the job for most situations I may ever encounter in the lower 48. I look at it as a "General Purpose Load".

Recently, I picked up a Lee C452-300-RF mold. The boolits are coming in fully dressed at 315 grains. I would like to get these moving close to 1,200 FPS. I think I could be quick and accurate with these.

I do have a .452 360 grain boolit with .370 meplat. It is pretty to look at. But, to fire shots off quickly and accurately I have to keep velocities between 925-950 FPS.

I am not sure which one I select if I had to choose just one.

[Love Life]

In my area there is mucho carnivore sign heading out of the hills, across the 208, and down to the Walker River.

[Love Life]

This is not a place to go out unarmed. Chris

We stay at the top of the food chain thanks to our guns. Good solid advice you have given.

[DanWalker]

That is not the first report I have heard of the FA's not functioning under field conditions.
My FA83 is a marvel of engineering precision. It is like a beautiful woman to me, with it's flowing lines and perfect proportions. And JUST like a lot of beautiful women I have known, it is a picky, temperamental, high maintenance BIZITCH! Boolits must be perfectly sized or the rounds will not chamber fully and sit proud, and the cylinder won't turn. If the ammo isn't absolutely spotless they won't chamber. Saz was with me one day when I dropped some ammo in the dirt. I dusted it off, and the FA absolutely refused to chamber it. My blackhawk gobbled it right up. I would NEVER trust my life to that gun. Luckily, I don't have much to worry about as long as I can feel the tug of that blackhawk or kimber on my belt though...

[DanWalker]

I really need that hammer mold its what I've been looking for and somehow I missed that buy. A 3 banger with HP/FN would be ideal dropping .460ish for my 45LCs and 45-70s.

PM me your address and I will send you some to try.

[NVScouter]

PM me your address and I will send you some to try.

PM sent. Thanks Dan!

Love Life I've replaced Lions for bears mostly. Only real contact with a lion was calling coyotes solo had one come in above me. I had wedged myself under a rock cliff so he was trying to figure out what I was and how to get me when I heard him. Scared the heck outa me, jumped up hollared and raised my 22-250. Gone like a ghost.....new shorts time!

I dont really call solo anymore either... Since the big fires of the 98-2005 Nevada's lions are a mess.

[Love Life]

The bison fire didn't help last year plus the several fires in 2011 and 2012.

[cwheel]

We live 350-400 yards off the east side of the hill in-between the river and the hill. Our property is one of the game trails to the river. Deer use our fence line almost every night for the trip to get a drink. With the deer come the things that eat them. The deer should go higher this year due to lack of feed. Shotgun makes since here because of other houses in rifle and pistol range. Just hope we avoid the fires this year, without water, any fire will be a bad one. Clearing brush early this year and keeping it down. Hope for the best, try to be ready for anything else.
Chris

[Pinsnscrews]

I now want to put together a Glock 20 Longslide. I blame this thread...

My first pistol was a Glock 20. I got pretty good with it shooting IHMSA back then. 4 200gr +P (Corbon) loads hit a Boar right between the eyes, and every single one fractured the skull but did not penetrate. Each one ricocheted. The Guide was peddling left as his .44 Mag Redhawk spat as fast as he could. We both hit it with everything we had in our hands as fast as we could. I scored 8 rounds, 4 in the head, 4 in the shoulder/chest as I peddled right. He hit with all 6.

The Boar missed me in its charge, slid to a halt, pivoted and started another charge from 10 Feet. I dropped the mag and was fumbling with the replacement when the third member of our party snapped out of his daze and shot it with a 12 gauge slug through the left shoulder. The Boar still tumbled another 5 or 10 feet. I was still fumbling with the magazine when I realised the guide was yelling at me to drop it.

Panic will get you dead, muscle memory will keep you alive. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.

[C. Latch]

How many folks out there carry a big revolver in a fancy chest rig but haven't practiced with it enough to use it effectively in an emergency?

I have such a revolver, and such a holster, but outside of grizzly country (I've never knowingly been in grizzly country, and have little reason to unless it happens on a future elk hunt) I am perfectly comfortable anywhere in America (except inner cities) with a 1911 with 230-grain hollowpoints. I think I'd be slightly happier with some 250-grain flat points, but, point is, the .45 ACP is the fastest thing I can draw and shoot with speed and precision under stress.

[Southern Shooter]

C. Latch, the big revolver and chest rig are NOT fancy. They are practical. Especially, in areas where there are large problematic animals AND a person is carrying a backpack or fishing. They offer a "chance" to enjoy the outdoors without struggling with a heavier and awkward longgun. I have a big revolver and chest rig as seen in an earlier post...and, I practice with it as often as possible. I do spend time in grizzly and large cat country, each year. That was the purpose of buying the set-up in the first place. It was a well thought out purchase based on the activities (mainly backpacking and fishing) I would be involved in while out in the mountain West.

I also live in the southeast part of the country. And, while we have have nothing of the sorts like grizzly, I wear the same chest rig and big gun when out deeper parts of forested and swampy areas. I don't use the same load as when I am out West...no need for it. But, using them at home keeps me in practice at being comfortable and accurately quick with this gun/holster combination.

I had considered the .45 ACP but was not satisfied with the limited bullet weight, design, and velocities. I still purchased something in the .45 caliber range. But, it is capable of a much wider range of loads.

[Southern Shooter]

REFOCUSE:

In creating a load, what should be the goal of a handgun in self-defense against large aggressive animals?

--Penetration in hopes of striking something of importance in the oncoming animal and quickly shutting it down?

--A hole large enough to allow massive bleeding?

--Both?

--What is realistic to achieve?

[cwheel]

Thinking the other aspect not mentioned is that you have it with you. I spend lots of time in my area prospecting. A large handgun in a chest rig would be one of the first things removed and set aside as the work starts. I pack a 1911 with 230gr. hollow points that goes unnoticed for the most part. Not the best thing you could choose, but packing it while working is better than having something larger back in the truck.
Chris

[Bullshop]

Some of both has to be the answer. A deep penetrating 22 fmj is not something I would count on so penetration alone is not enough.
A large hole is what you want in conjunction with total penetration. Large hole from expanding bullets or bullets with very large % meplate may mean less penetration. Compromise both until you have the right mix.
What I want is TOTAL penetration even if it has to break heavy bone and to do that you need momentum which means a heavy for caliber bullet.

[Southern Shooter]

Bullshop,
I have thought a lot about your caibou incident and another one...I think you shot an oncoming moose with a Sharps. Boolit weight seemed to be more of a factor than velocity. For a while I was shooting a .45 caliber 360 grain boolit with a .37 meplate. 950 FPS was the upper end of controllability when shooting quickly. Not very fast, but, I felt good about the weight to get enough penetration. At this point in time, I am working on a load for the 315 grain boolit I mentioned in an earlier post. Just trying to find a healthier blend of weight and velocity to achieve the needed penetration in a defensive situation.

cwheel,
I guess we have to look at the activities that each of us personally are engaging in. I could see where your means of carry would be different than mine. But, we both agree on the need to have something with us all of the time.

[1bluehorse]

YUP! Even in the wilds of Wyoming, your chances of running into trouble from 2 legged varmints are far greater than the 4 legged ones.


I enjoy how these types of threads always turn into "Grizzly stopping" conversations....grizzlys have been on the endangered species list in the US since about 1975 and the "estimated" number in the lower 48 is 8 to 1200 hundred animals..mostly in the Yellowstone and Glacier area....there are smaller populations in the Bob Marshall Wilderness area of Montana...also in the early 2000's there was "talk" of reintroduction in the Bitterroot-Selway area......the only "known" populations are in four states, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho and eastern Washington.....however there have been reports in the last couple years of a few sightings in the northern Cascades of Washington that are believed to have come down from Canada....pretty rare though....so even if the "numbers" are off a bit and there are actually as many as 2000 grizzly in the Lower 48 states spread out amongst 4 states, the opportunity/risk of ever running into one is probably way less than being attacked by your neighbors dog....expecially if you're not in one of those areas of those 4 states..;-)

[300savage]

bullshop and dan both know what they are talking about. if a critter is going to run away from you then you want to bleed em.
if they are running at you then you better be breaking something or else they are going to be bleeding all over you while they are ripping you a new one.

[DougGuy]

--Penetration in hopes of striking something of importance in the oncoming animal and quickly shutting it down?

--A hole large enough to allow massive bleeding?

--Both?

--What is realistic to achieve?

What is realistic is that you SURVIVE whatever encounter you are subjected to.



I guess we have to look at the activities that each of us personally are engaging in.

^^This has a LOT to do with how much gun you bring with you. Geographical location, type and size of animals that may pose a threat, how far you are from help if it is needed, all of the variables affect the choices you would want to make.

Ok, back to the Q.. For every barrel length there is a point at which velocity begins to fall off due to projectile weight increasing. The .44 Magnum is probably going to edge out the .45 Colt in penetration because of less frontal area, and we are talking heavy for caliber boolits in both guns, 310gr+ in weight. They say 340gr is about the turning point for the .45 Colt, and the .44 in my experience is about 310gr. After that it starts getting more like a Mack truck than a race car.

You definitely want penetration to vitals. How much blood the animal loses out of it's entry/exit wounds is secondary to how fast can you stop oxygenated blood from reaching it's brain. That is what will shut the body down and stop the threat. This means tearing all the plumbing off the top of the heart, shooting a golfball sized hole through the mass of the heart, turning the lungs into foam, all these will stop blood flow to the brain, and if you can't get a head/neck shot to immediately stop the charge/threat, you can only hope the loss of blood to the brain occurs rapidly enough for you to remain alive.

I think it's realistic to try for a 300gr boolit @ 1200f/s out of a short barrel (6" or less) handgun, and realistic to practice practice practice with it. If you can draw and aim before you really take time to think about it, to do it out of reflex, it may buy you enough time for one more shot, and that may be the shot that decides the outcome.

If you can handle the Super Redhawk with a 4" barrel, then you have even more advantage. I personally think I could handle a .44 better and faster than a .454 but that's just speculation since I don't own the SRH.

[Bullshop]

Griz might be rare but thats because I did my share in reducing their numbers, HA!
Black bears on the other hand are in most states and I have seen and killed them in the 600 lb range. A man once told me and I believe he was right that the average black bear is the same size as the average man, about 200 lbs. There are however many above average just like men. There are plenty of men between 300 and 400 lbs and so with black bears.
Like Elmer said, " Bring enough gun " I think he meant bring enough gun for the above average and not just the average.

[starmac]

Grizzlys are rare, I would aggree with that. Even up here the percentages of your chance of having a grizzly attack is rare, but it only takes one to become a rare statistic.

We had a seasoned guy killed by a black bear locally last year, it doesn't have to be a grizzly.

[DanWalker]

We have LOTS of Grizz in WY. One of the places we hunt is SE of Yellowstone. They relocate the problem bears from Yellowstone into the area where we hunt. It is rare to go up there and NOT see a Grizz. It is an exceptionally dense population and an extremely unnatural situation for those bears. They are in fierce competition for food and breeding rights. Please understand, each situation and area is different. I will admit that I hardly EVER go into that country armed with just my sixgun. The 870 gets the nod most of the time when we are prospecting or riding horses or hiking or camping.

[Southern Shooter]

I truly do look at this no differently than I do any form of insurance policy. We invest in the policy with hopes it never is needed. But, if that very expensive claim ever does occur in our lives...well, we sure are glad it was there to prevent absolute financial ruin.

[kootne]

Where I live the griz don't bother folks much so maybe my thoughts aren't valid but since I logged in I'll spout anyway. I think if you are packing a pistol that you have to draw to stop a charging bear your odds are only just slightly better than being plumb naked. They just move so fast. And in those situations they are usually aready moving at warp speed and commited by the time they are spotted. I've thought about the ones that have run the other way (so far, all of them) and if they had ran at me instead of away, what would happen? Most likely I'd be a bear turd cause not only do you have to get the gun out and a shot off, now you have to imobilize him before you become one with the bear. My theory if I take a pistol is that it is for peeling the bear off the guy with me. If I thought I needed a gun to stop the bear trying to get me, which is most likely going to happen packing out meat. I think I would pack my 9.3x57 Husky without a scope or a sling. Then it would always be in my hands where it will needed and not tucked in a holster or slung over my back. But if I do get et by a bear, (or tromped by a horse, or fell off a cliff) I've enjoyed quite a ride through life. Odds are a lot better I'll fade out in a bed sometime. Just my thoughts, others may disagree. Grateful to live in a country where we can all have our own opinion.
kootne

[Bullshop]

I have a 20" barrel 1903 Springfield in 375 Whelen with receiver sights. I shoot a 375gn boolit with 65% meplate at a tad over 2200 fps. Its about perfect for this sort of thing. Penetration with this boolit quench hardened is just flat unreal!

[1bluehorse]

I truly do look at this no differently than I do any form of insurance policy. We invest in the policy with hopes it never is needed. But, if that very expensive claim ever does occur in our lives...well, we sure are glad it was there to prevent absolute financial ruin.

If that be the case, we should all carry a 460 Weatherby rifle and a 500 S&W handgun....must be "prepared" for the "worst case" scenario :brokenima....remember this one, there ain't nothing a man can't fix with a 50 dollar bill and a 30-06.....might want to make that a hundred today account of inflation....out my back gate is over 70,000 acres of private timberland, nothing North of me for over 50 miles but "country"....no homes, no people live there....there's black bear, (I doubt any 600 pounders though) cougar, a bazillion coyotes and deer, and it wouldn't surprise to find a wolf or two...nothing that a factory 30-30 or a "normally" (240-250gr solid) loaded 44mag 45 colt around 1000 to 1200fps wouldn't handle nicely....probably the most dangerous thing I'll run into up there is some young range bull that wasn't brought in last year....do you all think a Ruger Bisley in 45 colt loaded up with a 325gr. hard cast with a 73% meplat loaded to 1350 would handle that or do I need a bigger gun.....[smilie=6:

[Bullshop]

1bluehorse
Your good to go with that!

[Southern Shooter]

Originally Posted by Bullshop:
After the experience with the caribou mentioned earlier I felt there was a practical limit to what is needed and going beyond that in boolit weight and velocity may become more of a detriment.
If I were to add to my first post it would be in performance parameters and for myself set that at about 250 to 300 gn boolit weight at 1000 to 1300 fps being adequate but wouldn't pair the lighter weight with the lower velocity. Everyone gets to set their own parameters so if mine don't seem to fit use what does fit.

It seems that a lot of opinions are being rendered, here...founded, unfounded, polite, impolite, helpful, unhelpful. At times it seems like those of us wishing to carry something more than a stick or a can of bear mace but less than a high-powered rifle are shamed. I am just trying to find that "practical limit" Bullshop mentioned...that middle-of-the-road option which will give a person even the slightest of increase in being able to safely enjoy remote outdoor activities. I am banking on NOT running into any trouble. But, if I do, I would like a fighting chance to, in some small fashion, tip the balance in my favor.

P.S.

Originally Posted by 1bluehorse:
If that be the case, we should all carry a 460 Weatherby rifle and a 500 S&W handgun....must be "prepared" for the "worst case" scenario
Even in terms of insurance policies we generally select based on a practical and balanced limit. Most of us can not afford the best insurance. We pick that which "fits" our needs as best as we can afford then go live our lives.
:D

[300savage]

well then just pick something that will dig deep enough to break up his running gear or get to his CNS to flip its switch off.
i would think something on the lines of hardcast 200 grn going 1200 too 1300 fps as a minimum. or 250 to 300 going 1000/1100 again as a minimum for a heavy.
and forget about the vitals, you dont need to kill em, you first need to stop them .
then kill em.

[Bullshop]

Southern Shooter
It wouldn't be my first choice but I would not feel at all helpless for the purpose mentioned with my Ruger 357 mag loaded with either the RCBS 200gn FNGC or the old Lyman 220 gn SWC-GC.
Either of those boolits loaded to top end for the Ruger will penetrate well and have enough momentum to break bone and continue on.
I am saying Ruger because they are strong and have enough cylinder length for an OAL that allows a stiff powder charge.
I have a Ruger Bisley 7.5" that shoots the 200gn RCBS very well at very impressive velocity. A good hit with a 357 so loaded will get the job done. A bad hit with a heavily loaded 454 Casull or any other wont.
I agree with 300savage, stop them then kill them.
On the bear incident mentioned when the bear was steeling my sandwich I fired 4 shots from a Ruger Red Hawk 44 mag. The range was less than 20 feet and the first shot was in the mouth and out the back of the head. I am pretty sure that killed him but it was on a very steep hillside and the bear went up and over backwards and kept rolling down the hill. Not mentally but instinctively I followed with the front sight and fired three more shots double action until the bear stopped rolling when it hit a tree I had just felled. No further shots were needed.

[reddoggm]

Those Serbu shotguns look pretty cool!! I'd like to have one if it weren't such a hassle.

Hickok seemed to have a little trouble with the bolt on the Remington I believe it was but seemed to like the Mossberg I saw that video a while back and thought that would be a cool home defense gun ---BUT----My poor walls would be a real big mess Think I,ll stick to the .40 carbine lol
DOGG!!!

[NVScouter]

Well since I hunt in griz country I think about them. I don't want to be the guy last year who got hit face ripped off 4 miles from my place. Yeah 4 miles. He tried to fight off a griz with a shovel while irrigating.

[HiVelocity]

You can't beat the 45 Colt with a big, fat meplat. A friend "field tested" some swaged, YES swaged, 250gr projectiles formed from 40S&W cases a few months back. In my Rossi Trapper, I'm a believer!

20 grains of H110 under this projectile at 1500 fps was dynamic, penetrated well, and retained valuable weight.

I have a like set-up in 45 ACP that I carry in 3 1911's. I would trust either to protect myself against anything, walking, crawling, or flying.

HV

[Pilgrim]

A year or so ago, not too long after carry in the national parks was legalized, a man shot and killed a sow grizzly in Denali. The bear was charging his girlfriend. I believe he popped it 9 times. He carried a 1911 cocked and locked. The bear turned and ran off. They found the bear dead not very far from the site of the fracus. I decided that a 1911 would be my carry gun. It is fairly light and unobtrusive, which means it's more likely to be with me than not. I tried carrying a Ruger BH Bisley, .45 Colt. It felt like I had a concrete block hanging off of my belt. Sold the pistol. I've not found a shoulder holster that is comfortable to me. I'm looking to try a "chest" holster next. But it will be with a 1911! FWIW Pilgrim

[waksupi]

A year or so ago, not too long after carry in the national parks was legalized, a man shot and killed a sow grizzly in Denali. The bear was charging his girlfriend. I believe he popped it 9 times. He carried a 1911 cocked and locked. The bear turned and ran off. They found the bear dead not very far from the site of the fracus. I decided that a 1911 would be my carry gun. It is fairly light and unobtrusive, which means it's more likely to be with me than not. I tried carrying a Ruger BH Bisley, .45 Colt. It felt like I had a concrete block hanging off of my belt. Sold the pistol. I've not found a shoulder holster that is comfortable to me. I'm looking to try a "chest" holster next. But it will be with a 1911! FWIW Pilgrim

I would take into consideration the fact he shot it nine times, and it ran off. Had it been a different bear, he may have shot it nine times, and the bear would have killed him before it died. Some bears run away, some don't. I have to consider the .45 ACP a failure in this instance.

[300savage]

just had to let a few facts and real world exp rain all over someones warm and fuzzies now didntya?

[Bullshop]

I would take into consideration the fact he shot it nine times, and it ran off. Had it been a different bear, he may have shot it nine times, and the bear would have killed him before it died. Some bears run away, some don't. I have to consider the .45 ACP a failure in this instance.
I agree! Shot 9 times probably because he didn't have ten shots which means he emptied the gun. At that point he was helpless and the bear having enough life left to run had enough life left to kill. The 45 acp in this case was obviously NOT ENOUGH GUN!

[DanWalker]

Meh, a fellas gotta die of something. I'd rather be et by a bear than die on the toilet. Besides, it would prove my mean old crazy momma wrong. She was always telling me,"Son you aint NEVER gonna amount to $hit!"

[DanWalker]

There's a lifesized full body mount of a grizzly in a bar in either jackson hole or cody.(I don't remember which) that was killed by a tough old mountain man by HAND. I figure, since I am descended from them guys, I ought to be up to the task. I'll just empty my kimber into Yogi's face, and then reach down his throat as he goes to eat me, and yank his guts inside out and strangle him with his own butthole. ;)

[BruceB]

For about 20 years, I carried a 7.5" Super Blackhawk in the NWT outside of the bears' hibernation season. I never found the WEIGHT to be anything but comforting. After some interesting experiences, I also never questioned the ability of the .44 Magnum cast loads to do what I needed.

I did finally decide that the BULK of the revolver with the 7.5" barrel was a tad unwieldy.... not bad, but enough so that I mentioned it to my wife one day.

That Christmas, 1989, she gave me one of the first guns of the S&W "Mountain" series... the 629-1 "Mountain Revolver". That .44 Magnum instantly became probably my favorite handgun, and it shared many adventures with me as a carry gun. I literally never left our wilderness home without it in "bear season", even just to go out in the "yard".

It's a few ounces lighter than the Ruger (very few) and carries one more round than the Old Model SBH. I mostly like it because it's shorter and less-likely to keep banging on stuff as I pass. The Ruger, as I say, wasn't "bad"... it rode butt-forward, cavalry-style, on my left side for a left-handed veverse draw...but that position made a draw with the RIGHT hand possible, too.

I can tell y'all that it is AMAZING how quickly we can accomplish required actions when emergencies arise....like, drawing a handgun from a full-flap holster. My later Smiff rides in a regular open-top holster with thumb break, but the Ruger was VERY available in that flapped holster.... and proved it a few times.

[MT Gianni]

I enjoy how these types of threads always turn into "Grizzly stopping" conversations....grizzlys have been on the endangered species list in the US since about 1975 and the "estimated" number in the lower 48 is 8 to 1200 hundred animals..mostly in the Yellowstone and Glacier area....there are smaller populations in the Bob Marshall Wilderness area of Montana...also in the early 2000's there was "talk" of reintroduction in the Bitterroot-Selway area......the only "known" populations are in four states, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho and eastern Washington.....however there have been reports in the last couple years of a few sightings in the northern Cascades of Washington that are believed to have come down from Canada....pretty rare though....so even if the "numbers" are off a bit and there are actually as many as 2000 grizzly in the Lower 48 states spread out amongst 4 states, the opportunity/risk of ever running into one is probably way less than being attacked by your neighbors dog....expecially if you're not in one of those areas of those 4 states..;-)

Officially yes. Grizzley bear are seen 30-50 miles N of the Rockies every spring. Where I live 25 M E of Butte, 200 M So of Glacier and 130 M NW of Yellowstone there are known denning females in three of the Mountain Ranges that surround our valley. Adults tend to stay put, teenagers roam and get into trouble in many species.

[9.3X62AL]

There's a lifesized full body mount of a grizzly in a bar in either jackson hole or cody.(I don't remember which) that was killed by a tough old mountain man by HAND. I figure, since I am descended from them guys, I ought to be up to the task. I'll just empty my kimber into Yogi's face, and then reach down his throat as he goes to eat me, and yank his guts inside out and strangle him with his own butthole. ;)

OK, THAT one got coffee on the puter screen. The visual affects alone are worth the price of admission.

I've had enough close brushes with nasty critters to not want any dealings with them only handled by a handgun. Now, the recipe here--black bears, mountain lions, pigs by the coast--aren't like northern-tier megafauna. But a black bear will spoil your afternoon if it puts its mind to doing so. And I like a good lever-rifle as a nasty-critter karma-leveler......44 Magnum, 45 Colt, or 30-30 WCF. There are good reasons for the millions of 30-30 lever rifles in America's gun cabinets. The caliber just plain WORKS, and its platform is light and handy.

[waksupi]

The grizzly number for Montana is as far off as their wolf numbers. They only research in a few areas, and extrapolate numbers from that point. They have never done research on griz from my place to the Cabinet Mountain Wilderness. I can guarantee them, there are plenty griz in the area that have never seen a pointy headed college type researcher.

[DougGuy]

A cop asked me one time years ago why I carried a .45 and the look on his face when I said "Because they don't make a fifty.."

Is there such thing as too much gun in the wild?

[Old School Big Bore]

Bruce - is that full auto .303 for sale?
Doug - reminds me of the patrol captain I worked for once, who asked me why did I 'have to' carry my 4' M29 - 'Well, Captain, one does not shoot one's FRIENDS !'
Ed <><

[white eagle]

this is my carry gun when I get a chance to roam the mountains,of course I would have it loaded with either 300 or 320 gr. cast boolits with a charge of 2400http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/pro_10296_2_7_zps54fc1988.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kempobb/media/pro_10296_2_7_zps54fc1988.jpg.html)

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Well, if I read the original post correctly, I differ with the thought that you need a cannon on wheels to stop any animal on the North American part of this world..,.in difficult situation . I do agree that if it has teeth, claws, big jaws , be cool and kill him, shoot until you need to reload...know your weapon, shoot it often in different situations... I have been served very well here in Alaska with my Ruger 44 mag w/5" bbl.....fairly hard cast boolit 250 gr, 20 gr of 2400 , will shoot through any animal up here. break bones and keep going. I only use a large bore rifle if I suspect the ranges to be long and I still have my Ruger in a shoulder rig. Don't get me wrong, to each his own... I have 454's, 45 LC, and most other hand cannons, but I use my 44 90% of the time. How much killing energy can you need? Size doesn't make up for poor shooting....practice with your choice of Hand cannon. Good casting, shooting, hunting

[kweidner]

if weight is an issue the 629 PD is an option. I have the 357pd that I carry out and about but we ain't got grizzlies in GA. Feral hogs and an occasional black bear or big cat. I can't shoot it as far as some of my other wheelguns but inside 50 it will do just fine

[NVScouter]

The grizzly number for Montana is as far off as their wolf numbers. They only research in a few areas, and extrapolate numbers from that point. They have never done research on griz from my place to the Cabinet Mountain Wilderness. I can guarantee them, there are plenty griz in the area that have never seen a pointy headed college type researcher.

The F&G just released the new data for delisting. They wanted around 50-100 breeding pairs in 2007/9 and now they believe that to be closer to 200 breeding pairs. None of this captures non-adults. And only in the Yellowstone area. 400+ breeding brown bears, a few hundred adolecents, and a few hundred more cubs. So 1000 bears in this area alone.

This summer when the fellow I mentioned was attacked F&G flew the helicopter out to find the bear. It was never found because they found over 20 bears in the imediate area..all ranches and hobby farms. O yeah this is about 20 miles from the park boundry. You also cant count on when they are active. Elk hunting in 6" of snow solo I found bear tracks over my previous days tracks. If they day is nice they can come out for a snack.

Its like the the wolf people that dont believe they are in the Bighorns. Tell that the the herder that lost 20+sheep in week before the wolves were killed a few months back. People go nuts over bears and wolves completely muddling any and all data just so it can be debated longer in court.

[Gibbs44]

Instead of a Serbu, not that they're not cool, but it seems like it'd be quicker to reload a sawed off double.

[1bluehorse]

[QUOTE=Southern Shooter;2718113]Thinking in terms of woods/mountain defense:
Since it seems obvious that a boolit fired from a handgun (no matter the caliber) will never match the shock and damage that can be caused by a boolit fired from a rifle...

In creating a load, what should be the goal of a handgun in self-defense against large aggressive animals?

--Penetration in hopes of striking something of importance in the oncoming animal and quickly shutting it down?

--A hole large enough to allow massive bleeding?








Some of us got a bit carried away in our responses to the question with our "charging grizzly" scenerios, but I think you actually gave the answer with your questions.....both of the ?'s above would be desireable goals.....caliber/bullet would depend on the threat...my choices may not be a good fit for the gentlemen who actually live and hunt/hike/bum around where the aforementioned critters actually could be encountered....my "country" is probably more like most here, black bear, cougar, would be the tooth and nail threats, that said, my "woods carry" handguns are either a 45 colt ( I have three left) or a 44 mag SBH 7 1/2in, (only carried sometimes when I'm horseback, in a Xdraw holster because I find it an "unwieldly" brute carried any other way, but I like it because I've found a very accurate load for it) these all will carry a 260gr. cast bullet between 1,000 and 1100 fps.....I don't carry these because I feel I "need" them, I carry them because that's what I choose to own and that's the ONLY handguns I own ( other than a 9mm for CC)....but they certainly will take care of any "business" I'll need....

[Southern Shooter]

Thank you, 1bluehorse.

[Certaindeaf]

Thinking in terms of woods/mountain defense:
Since it seems obvious that a boolit fired from a handgun (no matter the caliber) will never match the shock and damage that can be caused by a boolit fired from a rifle...

In creating a load, what should be the goal of a handgun in self-defense against large aggressive animals?

--Penetration in hopes of striking something of importance in the oncoming animal and quickly shutting it down?
--A hole large enough to allow massive bleeding?

--Both?

--What is realistic to achieve?
It depends on the rifle and the handgun, what bullets are used and the intended purpose. Humans have been called "large aggressive animals".. if you mean griz, say so.. but I don't think you'll come across one down at the quickie mart in Ohio.
No matter what is used, you still have to hit it right even if it's a bunny rabbit.

[starmac]

I see in the news today that a lady was mauled in her driveway in a residential area in florida by a black bear. You just never know when or where you will need that bear defense gun.

[Digital Dan]

We tell Yankees time and time again, "Don't feed the bears!"

Do they listen? No. Still gloating from Gettysburg has it's downside.

[Petrol & Powder]

From what I've read about professional hunters and dangerous game, it seems that bullet placement and penetration are far more important than some magic bullet that may or may not work. Stopping the charge is different than killing the animal. Yes, the animal is going to die if it bleeds out BUT what good is that if it mauls you to death before it dies? I would think in that extreme circumstance it would be better to destroy the beast's ability to harm you as quickly as possible. I'm thinking a CNS hit by a projectile that will always have the mass and energy to penetrate far enough to always damage something vital. Something that is well protected by fur, hide, muscle and bone. A handgun in that situation is a last ditch effort to save your life.
In "African Rifles & Cartridges" by John Taylor, he writes about The Revolver or Pistol as Auxiliary in Chapter 11. Taylor addresses "metal-covered bullets" (I assume full metal jackets). This is coming from someone that has been there, done that and lived to tell about it. It appears, at least to me, that he believed bullet penetration was far more important than bullet expansion.
I have no personal knowledge of this issue but it makes sense to bet your life on something that can always reach deep enough to damage something vital.

[Piedmont]

What John Taylor had in mind is different than what most of us want. He carried the pistol as a last resort for if a cat (lion or leopard) had him down and was ready to or already had started chewing on him. He hunted with a long gun and the pistol was a backup.

[Petrol & Powder]

Woods/Mountain Defense: Handgun Boolits Are No Rifle Boolits

/\I thought that was what we were talking about

[300savage]

nope, no difference in what we want or need today in a self defense pistol against large aggressive beasties.
penetration and mass in a packin and shootin friendly package.
accuracy is great for sniping at undisturbed critters, when events start unfolding in your direction begin to find your personal space becoming said critters space it dont need to be so accurate as familiar, reliable, accessible, controllable , and able to drive solid heavy chunks of metal through bone.
lots of bone.
meat and/or vitals are meaningless and are simply what you have to get through to reach bone.

[Southern Shooter]

300savage...yes...I like that description.

[Bullshop]

Me too!

[NLS1]

Fun thread.

Last fall while deer hunting at a relatives, there were reports of several black bear from neighbors.

Sure glad for the 44 with 305 grain cast over a healthy dose of h-110 those days.

They may not be too big, but I sure wouldn't wanna tangle with one unarmed.

Plus the reports of giant chickens, whew, those things are vicious.

Dan

[DanWalker]

Here's a good video clip to give you an idea of how fast Yogi can move when he really means it....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuYs8Dnef3s&feature=youtu.be

[MaLar]

"We tell Yankees time and time again, "Don't feed the bears!"

Do they listen? No. Still gloating from Gettysburg has it's downside."


I keep telling easterners don't pet the BUFFALO!!!!!

[Sharpeye]

Here's a good video clip to give you an idea of how fast Yogi can move when he really means it....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuYs8Dnef3s&feature=youtu.be

And that is why when I bow hunt I carry the one on the right, left is a 280 Remington.

103492

[Cornbread]

The grizzly number for Montana is as far off as their wolf numbers. They only research in a few areas, and extrapolate numbers from that point. They have never done research on griz from my place to the Cabinet Mountain Wilderness. I can guarantee them, there are plenty griz in the area that have never seen a pointy headed college type researcher.

Man ain't that the truth! If you head straight south from Thompson lakes I live in the mountains between there and Hwy 200. I get nuisance bears, grizzly and blackies in my yard. Usually it is in fall and the woods is dry and they want a drink from my creek and a wallow in the cold mud of the seeps down there. So we have them in close proximity to us 2 to 3 times a year for sure. Probably more that we don't know about and they just run off before we are aware of them, especially when hunting. Here are my rambling thoughts on bears and our defense against them.

I carry a double action 454 when I hunt if I am not hunting with the 45-70. I practice shooting weekly(ok I'll be honest I pretty much shoot daily, it's rare if I go a day without shooting) with the 454. I tell the wife it is so I am in practice in case I get attacked by a bear. Really (and she knows it), it is because I just love to shoot and reload and shoot some more.

Most people get a babysitter and go on date to the movies and dinner. The wife and I drop the kids off with the sitter and go home and have a range day where we don't have to have one of us watch the kids while the other one is outside shooting. It's our version of together time....don't judge :)

Anyway I served in enough combat in the Marines to know I can hit what I aim at under any amount of stress so I am not super worried about myself. I do worry about the kids though, both when we are hunting, fishing, berry picking etc. and when at home so I do carry and if it isn't on me, it is in easy reach. My kids like to play outside and I'm not going to keep them inside because there is a one in a million chance a bear might do more than run away when it sees us.

The beagle has more bark than brains so we get plenty of warning when a bear is around and both the wife and I have a loaded gun nearby when we are inside and the kids are outside (it is a 45-70 guide gun...pre-remlin). We don't live like we live in a combat zone but the gun is loaded and ready should either of us need to grab it and when I am outside I carry my 454 anyway so I can "test" new loads. About the only time I don't carry is when I am cutting wood with a chainsaw on the property. Maybe I should?

Is it enough? I hope so but I don't know that it is ever "enough" where your kids are concerned. We do the best we can and I am reasonably certain that any of our 454s and or the 45-70 is "enough". I am also hoping that we all go through our entire lives without ever having to find out. So far the bears have always run when they see us out and about. I hope it is always this way, but should it not be I feel we are as prepared as we can be without living a life of paranoia.

[youngmman]

To quote Bill Jordan in "No Second Place Winner", "Learn to take your time, Fast"

[Catshooter]

Cornbread,

Sounds to me like you've mostly got it covered.

Although I don't understand why you're not armed when chainsawing? Seems like as good a time as any to me. And it's not like you're going to get any warning of trouble with your hearing. Just a thought.

Welcome to the forum.


Cat

[Cornbread]

Cornbread,

Sounds to me like you've mostly got it covered.

Although I don't understand why you're not armed when chainsawing? Seems like as good a time as any to me. And it's not like you're going to get any warning of trouble with your hearing. Just a thought.

Welcome to the forum.


Cat

It's mostly because the kevlar chaps I wear when I cut trees are rather bulky and if I add a gun to it I have to cinch my belt really tight or my trousers start to fall off my butt :) I don't like cinching my belt that tight and I can't work with it in a chest holster but you are right I should probably just suck it up and wear my belt tighter so I can keep it on me always.

Thanks for the welcome. I'm liking it here a lot. Lot of knowledge about boolit casting and reloading in this place.

[starmac]

Anybody chainsawing is armed, think about it. lol
That said, I have gotten to the point that suspenders work for me.

[MT Gianni]

I have heard of loggers in the south that have deer come in to eat fresh leaves from the fallen trees. We get no deer or elk wanting to eat pine needles in MT.

[Bullshop]

They don't eat the needles but they do come in and eat the moss that grows in the tree. I have had them do this in early spring when their starving due to the still deep snow.

[kootne]

Whitetail deer in this corner of the state will flock to eat the long stringy black moss that looks like sasquatch hair even when they are in good shape. It is a well used hunting strategy to get up way before daylight when the empty logging trucks are on the move and follow one to find out where the cutting units are, then find a spot to sit in ambush for a deer coming in to eat that moss. They seem to prefer it to anything else they can get. I think it is the same moss the cariboo eat in their occasional forays through our neck of the woods. Supposably, they have big enough feet to be able to walk on top of crusted snow many feet deep and can reach the moss without having the tree cut down.
kootne

[Bullshop]

I have had them come in to a tree while I was still liming and bucking it. I have also found them dead the next day still at the tree. For some of them that were starved out the food just came too late.
This was not in Montana though it was in the islands of south east Alaska where the snow could still be head deep in April.

[Cornbread]

Yep, I had five of them(deer) in my yard last week ignoring all the fresh grass and happily stomping all over my slash pile to eat the moss off the limbs. They showed up within minutes of my saw stopping.

[Bullshop]

So maybe I could sell some taped chain saw sound to deer hunters.

[Cornbread]

So maybe I could sell some taped chain saw sound to deer hunters.

There was an older gentleman I used to bow hunt with in Oregon who would run a saw a bit and then sit in a ground blind and wait for the deer to come in. Not sure how well it worked or not but he did get deer.

[MT Gianni]

I guess I have been too long on the dry side of the divide.

[Cornbread]

More info for those going into big bear country:

From the study: "Although bear spray was 92% effective by our definition of success, it is important to note that 98% of persons carrying it were uninjured after a close encounter with bears".

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_cougar/bear/files/JWM_BearSprayAlaska.pdf

[terry]

met dave at shot show. standup gentleman. excellent workmanship.

[NVScouter]

Had our first bear mauling last week on the MT side. Father ran at hearing his son shoot. Found a dying bear and his son mauled but alive. Only one shot with a rifle but it didnt stop the bear fast enough even with a fatal hit. He is still in CCU to the best of my knowledge and I really hope he is OK.

You MUST be prepared to use what you have with speed and accuracy.

They were blackbear hunting so had decent rifles but I dont know the caliber yet.

[Cornbread]

Had our first bear mauling last week on the MT side. Father ran at hearing his son shoot. Found a dying bear and his son mauled but alive. Only one shot with a rifle but it didnt stop the bear fast enough even with a fatal hit. He is still in CCU to the best of my knowledge and I really hope he is OK.

You MUST be prepared to use what you have with speed and accuracy.

They were blackbear hunting so had decent rifles but I dont know the caliber yet.

More on the attack, he killed the bear but it messed him up pretty good first.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/05/montana-hunter-in-serious-condition-after-grizzly-bear-attack/

According to the US and Canadian bear attack studies I read recently this is the case in nearly 50% of all cases where a firearm is used to repel a bear attack. Where bear spray is used 98% avoided injury. I bought my wife bear spray after reading those studies. We still carry our guns but over several hundred attacks the data doesn't lie. Bear spray is better at keeping you from getting hurt than a firearm is. Which to me makes sense, I saw how many shots people can miss in combat, even in close areas like a room in a house. In the case of a bear those missed or poorly placed shots would mean injury or death. Short of a frag grenade bear spray seems to be your best first line of defense when they charge you.

[waksupi]

More on the attack, he killed the bear but it messed him up pretty good first.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/05/montana-hunter-in-serious-condition-after-grizzly-bear-attack/

According to the US and Canadian bear attack studies I read recently this is the case in nearly 50% of all cases where a firearm is used to repel a bear attack. Where bear spray is used 98% avoided injury. I bought my wife bear spray after reading those studies. We still carry our guns but over several hundred attacks the data doesn't lie. Bear spray is better at keeping you from getting hurt than a firearm is. Which to me makes sense, I saw how many shots people can miss in combat, even in close areas like a room in a house. In the case of a bear those missed or poorly placed shots would mean injury or death. Short of a frag grenade bear spray seems to be your best first line of defense when they charge you.

The statistics don't include the SSS factor.

[Cornbread]

The statistics don't include the SSS factor.

True and I won't argue that it doesn't happen because we both totally know it does, but even if the SSS crowd accounts for 2% - 10% of firearms related attack data which would be a large number of attacks per year in proportion to the reported amount of attacks and we assume that the SSS crowd always kills their target without injury you are still only looking at a 52% - 60% percent success rate for getting out of a bear attack unscathed if you use the firearm exclusively.

If you balance that with the fact there are probably unreported cases of bear spray use which go unreported because the bear ran away leaving the person unscathed you are still probably real close to spray being 98% effective and firearms being 50% effective.

The reason for firearms being less effective by far is that people under stress miss. A bullet(with sufficient mass and energy) to the head is 100% effective but many people can't do that at a target on the range, let alone while a bear is trying to eat them.

I'm 100% confident my wife can hit a bear with pepper spray, I'm not even remotely close to that level of sure that she can hit a bear in the head or spine with a gun when it is charging. So we have both options available to us now.

[Smoke4320]

Well you know there was only one sandwich and both of us wanted it so one of us had to die.
Ruger Redhawk 5", 250gn Keith, 21gn 2400 proved adequate.

All I want to know is after that did you have bunch of bear sammichs

[luvtn]

Sorry, but if bear spray is so darn good why is it so hard to find in stores, then once it is on your person to deploy. While biking/ hiking in Anchorage I saw exactly one couple that carried bear spray on their ramblings. I was above the arctic circle on two different occasions on work assignments for months, and never once saw or heard of anyone carrying bear spray. The AC store carried ammo, but no spray that I saw. Statistics do lie. Believe me. Just check out the polls.
gramps

[waksupi]

I know a great SSS story about a board member here, and a griz I just wish I could tell. The statute of limitations is still in effect, though. Absolutely hilarious.

[Cornbread]

I know a great SSS story about a board member here, and a griz I just wish I could tell. The statute of limitations is still in effect, though. Absolutely hilarious.

I totally know what you mean. I have one SSS bear story that I actually watched happen at a distance to two bow hunter friends when they were out deer hunting that in retrospect was really funny especially since one of the guys was quite rotund but at the time was very serious and I don't think either one was laughing. Unfortunately until certain laws change it will have to remain just that "a story" that I can neither confirm nor deny really happened and is rarely if ever told.

[NVScouter]

Most hunters in serious bear county have learned to carry both. Spray is a deterant if you see one aproaching not sure if it wants trouble. Gun is for one charging then its a fight so see who lives.

Only thing with a grizzly is a good shot(s) can drop one while a bad shot can piss it off.