Dacron?

[WineMan]

I see many references to Dacron as a filler. When I went to the local sewing store for pillow stuffing all they had was polyester "fluff", they did not have any Dacron. My sailboat sails and sheets (ropes) are Dacron which is very resistant to UV light and sun exposure. Is the polyester fluff what people use?

Dave

[Winger Ed.]

I'm not sure what the difference is, but Dacron is supposed to just be 'better'.
Something else that used to be a favorite years ago when you could still get it,
is a pinch of Kapock from old life jackets.

.

[beagle]

I normally use the polyester that comes in sheets for linning quilts...from Wally World./beagle

[44man]

It's called polyester fiberfill. I buy the garneted stuff, it is finer without the long, thick strands. Nicer to work with.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Dacron is a DuPont trademark for a member of the polyester fiber family. The claimed advantage of Dacron is that it burns very cleanly.

Bob

[Ricochet]

What I get when I shoot it is a storm of gray-black milkweed fluff blowing around. Haven't seen that clean burning.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes the polyester fill is dacron. I buy the batton sheets of it (5/8ths) at sewing stores. I then cut into strips about 3/4" wide and then cut those into squares. I store them in a coffee can. Easy to do while watching the tube. The squares are 1/2 to 3/4s gr and are right for a filler in most cases. The smaller calibers like .223 I cut the square in half. I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod to push the dacron into the case with. I also don't tamp it down on the powder but let the bullet push it down. Works very good in most application with medium burning powders are 80% or less loading density. I don't use a filler or wad with faster pistol type powders.

Besides giving more uniform internal balistics because of consitant ignition the dacron wad seems to (I've not done any real testing on this) allow for somewhat higher velocities with accuracy when using PB bullets.

Larry Gibson

[pa_guns]

What I get when I shoot it is a storm of gray-black milkweed fluff blowing around. Haven't seen that clean burning.

Hi

My guess is that you have to generate a reasonable amount of heat / pressure for it to burn. I have yet to see any filler that burns well in really low density loads.

Bob

[PDshooter]

I grab a old stuffed toy, that my 11yr old girl dosn't play with anymore.:roll:

[pa_guns]

Hi

The old time approach was to grab a pinch of the stuff and try to light it. There are a lot of different ways to make polyester, and some apparently was pretty nasty when it got hot.

Bob

[Morgan Astorbilt]

We commonly use it in schuetzen, to hold the powder in the case when breech seating bullets. Have never seen any of mine burn, but if you're worried, you can try to locate some old fashioned life vests, and use the kapok. It works the same way "a little pinch 'll do ya"
Morgan

P.S., Never had a problem with "Ringed Chambers" either, been using both Dacron and kapok for years in my .32-40, 8.15x46R, and .45-70. These are light loads, running 1200-1400fps.
Morgan

[mooman76]

Drier lint work as well.

[Johnch]

I just bought Christmas tree skirts on sale , at 75% off ended up about 1/4 the price of the poly batting if I bought it at the faberic store

I now have 10 years worth

Oh well it dosn't go bad

John

[pa_guns]

Hi

The idea of the burn is not to see if it's consumed. It's to see if what ever portion does burn does so cleanly. Chunks of charred melted plastic stuck in the bore were what they worried about.

If you can find a powder that burns cleanly at low densities, I'd say that worrying about "stuff" from the filler is worth the effort. I have yet to find that magic powder ...

Bob

[RU shooter]

I grab a old stuffed toy, that my 11yr old girl dosn't play with anymore.:roll:+1 with 3 kids I have 17 lifetime supplies of the fluff stuff:-D

[fatelvis]

Drier lint work as well.
Wow, I never thought I'd see a use for that stuff, good idea! So with that being said, would a pinch of cotton work?

[Ricochet]

I wouldn't use a filler if it weren't a low density load. :-D

[pa_guns]

Hi

Sometimes you see people using fillers with 60-80% loads. I think that's a bit much, but I don't think it hurts anything.

Bob

[testhop]

WINEMAN
i have a lot of kopoc pm meand i wll send you some

tom

[Scrounger]

Hi

Sometimes you see people using fillers with 60-80% loads. I think that's a bit much, but I don't think it hurts anything.

Bob

It can help if there were a leading problem.

[randyrat]

Yes the polyester fill is dacron. I buy the batton sheets of it (5/8ths) at sewing stores. I then cut into strips about 3/4" wide and then cut those into squares. I store them in a coffee can. Easy to do while watching the tube. The squares are 1/2 to 3/4s gr and are right for a filler in most cases. The smaller calibers like .223 I cut the square in half. I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod to push the dacron into the case with. I also don't tamp it down on the powder but let the bullet push it down. Works very good in most application with medium burning powders are 80% or less loading density. I don't use a filler or wad with faster pistol type powders.

Besides giving more uniform internal balistics because of consitant ignition the dacron wad seems to (I've not done any real testing on this) allow for somewhat higher velocities with accuracy when using PB bullets.

Larry Gibson i though it was for straight walled cases?

[Larry Gibson]

i though it was for straight walled cases?

I use dacron as a filler only in any rifle case, straight or bottle necked, with medium to heavy cast bullets where a medium or slow burning powder is used and load density is 80% or less. I do not use dacron (as a filler or wad) with faster pistol powders and cast bullets of any weight as with the right powder a wad or filler is not needed.

I use the dacron as filler in rifle cases for two reasons; first is it improves the consistancy of ignition and thus lowers shot to shot velocity variation (ES: Exreme Spread). Second is, the dacron filler, as opposed to a wad, eliminates movement of the wad (in cartridges still in the magazine) under recoil and prevents powder migration around the wad. An important consideration for using these loads in repeaters.

Larry Gibson

[35remington]

Dacron also helps prevent gascutting of the plainbase bullet. I use it with faster shotgun powders for this benefit as well as slower powders, but ultimately that's up to the user.

I use the pillow sized bags that say "100 percent polyester fiberfill."

I grab a small tuft from a wad plucked from the bag, make sure it is well lofted (takes up maximum space) before poking it into the case with an old standard screwdriver. Usual weight is a small fraction of a grain. I fill the space completely between powder and bullet but don't pack it in.

In deliberate tests, it is possible to see the effect the powder charge has on dacron if you use enough of it to leave the barrel intact (not something I usually do).

For example, in my .35 Remington a recovered dacron filler has a round fused area that exactly matches the diameter of the bullet base. In my .25-20 with fast powders, a small fused area is present in the dacron, presumably that part closest to the powder flame, as it does not match bullet base diameter. This fusing is more prevalent with fast pistol type powders than light charges of 4227, 2400, 4759 or similar.

In amounts appropriate to fill the case from powder to bullet and no more, it is difficult to find the dacron in front of the shooting bench while shooting the smaller cased cartridges unless a larger than normal amount is used (not recommended). In larger cased cartridges it is a little more common to find the spent polyester, usually dirty gray. The dacron fibers are often broken up into shorter strands after their journey, and the recovered tuft looks like fine gray/blackened straw.

Many favorite reduced cast bullet powders like 4227 and others suffer from wide velocity variation unless dacron is used, which is where it is best suited. IMO.

[Guido4198]

When I've used a filler, it is a polyester material I bought in a bulk bag @ Wally-World. ( The thought of stealing toys from small children hadn't ocurred to me...:mrgreen:)
Working up a mild load for my .458 Win mag, I tried some loads with and without use of this poly fill, and was kind of suprised at the results.
These were loaded with a 500 gn. NEI cast from 30:1 Pb/Sn, sized .459, NRA/alox lube, WLRM primer, 50.0 gn. IMR-4895 powder. Rifle is a Remington 700 w/ 21" Douglas bbl. and Millet red dot sight. I only fired 5 rounds of each and cannot say if these results will stand up with a larger sample size, but I believe they will based on the consistency shown in each group.
with NO filler...Mv(ave)=1377 fps, Es=16.
WITH filler...Mv(ave)=1596 fps, Es=30.
As you will expect, the loads with filler produced a noticable increase in perceived recoil. Both shot quite well from my rifle producing a single "ragged hole" @ 50 yds. from a rest.

[pa_guns]

Hi

My *guess* is that your ES will ultimately come out better with the filler than without.

That of course *assumes* that you don't have something nasty in the filler. There are *lots* of different chemical formulas that all get called polyester.

Bob

[WineMan]

Thanks for all of the great replies!

Dave

[FWAddit]

I use kapok because I have a big supply from life jackets damaged by mice. I use it even in loads with higher than 80% density because it prevents leading up past pressures that cause the bullet to fail from slumping.

Bullets recovered from packed snow indicate that the kapok filler acts by preventing gas cutting, which gas checks (in my experience) do not do completely. It must act as a gasket at the rear edge of the bullet. Results with Dacron are just as good, but no better. I've never noticed Dacron after firing; sometimes a little kapok fluff comes floating down after the shot.

Interesting about the dryer lint; I'm going to try some, just for the heck of it!

[Buckshot]

.............heh, heh I saw DACRON and didn't even wanna look in or post. Pretend I didn't post. I haven't read anything yet :-)

..................Buckshot

[pa_guns]

Hi

In the old days there was one other reason to do the flame test.....

One of the "alternative" forms of filler was a common plastic - cellulose nitrate. We know it with the name reversed - nitro cellulose. It's the main component of a lot of powders. Using that stuff as filler is pretty much guaranteed to ruin your day. As a matter of fact, using it as filler in a toy is equally dangerous ...

Bob

[BAGTIC]

I wouldn't expect any of the fillers to actually burn, at least not very well, as they all lack a supply of necessary oxygen inside the fired cartridge. Even the gases from cartridges fired without fillers tend to be oxygen deficient and contain carbon monoxide.

[pa_guns]

I wouldn't expect any of the fillers to actually burn, at least not very well, as they all lack a supply of necessary oxygen inside the fired cartridge. Even the gases from cartridges fired without fillers tend to be oxygen deficient and contain carbon monoxide.

Hi

Some plastics melt at high temperature. Melted plastic isn't a good thing to coat the inside of your barrel with ...

Bob

[swampmaster]

Kapok is what I used to use and will use again, as I have a few lifetimes worth of it, I also sell it for at gun shows once in a while makes a great firestarter also

[testhop]

swampmaster
iam with you on kopok i have used it for filler and as a fire starter works great in both jobs
it will lite with a spark and i have never had any blow out of a barrelwhen used as a filler

[HORNET]

Toilet paper (clean, ya wierdos) can also be used as a filler and is easy to measure to get a consistent quantity. It's still a pain to stuff into a case, but doesn't seem to burn in the barrel. I gave up on trying to stuff it into .22 center-fires after shooting into a light breeze and having to stop and clean the fuzz off the objective lens after 10 shots...

[softpoint]

Yup, allus use UNUSED toilet paper as moisture will contaminate powder! And those who use kitty litter to tumble cases in should takea similar approach

[Ricochet]

That reminds me, when you have young kids around in the winter, a wood stove is good for disposing of disposable diapers. Just don't go outside for a few minutes afterward. You can pile 'em in a corner during the spring, summer and fall till you fire up the stove again.

[pa_guns]

That reminds me, when you have young kids around in the winter, a wood stove is good for disposing of disposable diapers. Just don't go outside for a few minutes afterward. You can pile 'em in a corner during the spring, summer and fall till you fire up the stove again.

Hi

I'll bet anybody out on the sidewalk at the time doesn't hang around for long ...

Bob

[Ricochet]

Keeps the neighborhood quiet.

[American]

Found this in a thread called "WC 820 in 7.62X39" over in the Surplus Powder Data forum:

---------------------
"With 15 grs in the case, there's still a lot of air space and this powder is obviously position sensitive. With the first group, the velocity was 1707 on the first shot. For the remainder of the shots, I raised the barrel to verticle to settle the powder and the average velocity was 1791 with an ES of 34.
With the second group, I raised the barrel before each shot and the ES was much closer.
….Just wish it would shoot the plain base boolits as well."
--------------------

Since I just ordered a six-pac of WC820 for use in, among other things, 762x39, it was good to find this thread, but a little disappointed to think that I'd have to tilt my gun a certain way to get to work at its best.

Would this be an application where a Dacron or kapok puff might be of use to minimize the "position sensitive" part of this load?

Also, will Dacron or kapok act like a gas check for 155 gr cast boolits w/o GCs (and at 1700 fps), as seems to be implied above? Is one preferable to the other in this application?

PS - Thanks much for the tip on using kapok for tinder! The wife and I have been looking into learning to start fires with sparks and other primitive, make-do methods. I have several old PFDs whose stuffing will now be stored in a couple ammo boxes with desiccant for safe keeping.

[Scrounger]

Either that or add another grain of powder. Same result.

[HORNET]

You can also drill the flash holes out bigger and/or use hotter primers and/or faster powders. Those can eliminate any need to mess around with fillers.

[pa_guns]

Hi

There is no need to go to fillers in a 7.62x39 even with cast. Pick another powder.....

Bob

[American]

...Pick another powder.....


WC820 powder is a given in this case.

If I wanted it to be simple and easy I would just buy factory ammo. Or load jacketed bullets to loading manual specs. Or take up stamp collecting.

Many shooters seem to use fillers for various purposes and have noted several advantages, including:

- compensate for "position sensitivity" in low density loads

- improved velocity ES

- improved accuracy

- ability to use PB CBs at higher velocities; fillers might form a seal at the rear of the boolit similar to (or better than) a standard gas check to prevent gas cutting at higher pressures

The info I have on this load (13 to 15 grains of WC 820 in 762x39 under a 155 gr CB, loaded without a filler), includes observations that there may be room for improvement in the following areas:

- compensate for "position sensitivity" in low density loads

- improved velocity ES

- improved accuracy

- ability to use PB CBs at higher velocities; fillers might form a seal at the rear of the boolit similar to (or better than) a standard gas check to prevent gas cutting at higher pressures

WC820 powder is somewhat slower than the fast pistol powders that are commonly used (with no fillers) in small quantities in rifle cases with CB.

Can anyone help me understand why using fillers in this load would or wouldn't help acheive the advantages others have noted using fillers in their own loads?

[pa_guns]

Hi

Most 7.62x39 gets used in gas driven semi auto's. I would avoid the fillers simply to eliminate the chore of cleaning them out of the gas system all the time.

Bob

[BruceB]

Gentlemen;

After several thousands of rounds through my M1A, many of which contained dacron fill, I have found ZERO evidence of filler material in the gas system....or lead either, for that matter. It simply is not a problem, and the rifle runs happily for hundreds of consecutive rounds without cleaning. In fact, the rifle has never gotten to the point of sluggish function even after over 600 cast loads went down the barrel....it was still working perfectly whenever I decided to (finally) clean it.

I agree that the 7.62x39 shouldn't need any fillers. The ONLY rifle I ever bought simply because i thought it would be a good one specifically for cast bullets, is my Ruger 77 in 7.62 Rooskie Short. My belief in the non-need of fillers was based on the limited case capacity, and so it proved.

In well over 2000 rounds to date, meaning at least 200 separate and distinct load recipes, I have yet to use dacron in the 7.62 rifle...and I am a DEVOTED fan of the fluffy stuff.

[MT Gianni]

Can anyone help me understand why using fillers in this load would or wouldn't help acheive the advantages others have noted using fillers in their own loads?

The chance of compression would change the burn. My experience with fillers has been with loads in the 30% full or less. I think 15 gr in the 7.62x39 would be a higher volumne than that. It does depend on what you are shooting them out of. A Norinco may not have a great enough accuracy potential to tell the difference. A custom target SS or bolt may have. Try that load and see what you get for accuracy. Then see if playing with fillers is worth it for what you want to achieve. If it is a dump 10 as fast as you can I don't think you will notice, If it is slow aimed fire you may. Gianni

[mroliver77]

With most off the shelf powders running around $20lb in my area I would rather use 5 grain of pistol powder rather than 20 gr of slower powder to drive a boolit the same speed. (numbers pulled from the air) Sometimes this requires a filler to get better accuracy and I dont mind the little extra fiddling. The dacron usually allows me to use a grain or two less powder to attain the targeted speed. I am talking rabbit, turkey, squirrel typ loads in 30-06, 223 or 30-30 round ball loads.Mebbe I am too tite with a dollar but I sure like to shoot and the budget is very tight for me. My American Bulldog Zues supplies all my filler needs as he thinks it a shame for dacron to remain inside stuffed toys.

[Saint]

I shoot a cap & ball revolver quite a bit. Maybe smokeless powders work different but I used to think leading the barrel was bad until I had to scrub molten polyester felt out of a .44 1851 Navy. One of the things I found that actually worked pretty good for me was scrap leather from the craft store. I don't know the technical term for it but it is the fuzzy scraps that they sell by the bag. I used a hollow punch to knock out .44 cal pieces that could be loaded between the powder and the bullet but they had to be soaked in hot lube for about a half hour to soften up enough. Wool felt works great, but real wool felt is hard to find as most of it is polyester unless you are willing to order it online which I no longer do because of the problems I have had with identity theft. Don't know if this will be of use in smokeless world but who knows.