Cast or Swaged bullet @900fps for deer

[shawnba67]

I have been reading up on both and can't seem to make up my mind. At under 1000fps which would be the better for Indiana whitetailn inside 100yd's. Please state your case. I am looking hardest at the 270 gr SAA or the hawk Swaged 260gr HP. The hawk is pretty salty but $50 worth would still last years, and I'd gladdly pay $100's to not wound an animal. Please help me decide, any real world experience would be greatly appreciated.

[300savage]

your hollowpoint is what i would choose for 50 yards and under. the SAA for anything past that.
but actually after 50 i think they are likely to perform about the same since you most likely will get very little expansion, which has been my experiance with hollowpoints at around that velocity.

[Pilgrim]

Read some of John Linebaughs stuff. He and his wife both often use a .45 Colt with a CB at about 900 fps and kill whatever critter they shoot at. I personally would prefer the cast boolit as swaged bullets are much softer simply due to the swaging process itself. FWIW Pilgrim

[williamwaco]

My mentor always told me not to worry about expansion with .44 and .45 caliber handguns.

Those bullets are "already expanded".

[Mod42]

Cast with a large flat point.......

[shawnba67]

I appreciate all the info fella's. I thought the soft swaged bullet might give the HP a much higher reliability than a regular JHP. Would this be true, and if so would swaged still be in second place?

[Bullshop Junior]

What cartridge are we talking about?

The SAA bullet is not good at flesh displacement. It pokes a hole in, and a hole out. Trust me. I know this.

I shoot a lot of cast out of a 45colt/454casull and its incredible how much smack a big wide flatnose will make. For hunting I like about 70% meplate.

[Larry Gibson]

I've used lots of HP'd cast bullets (the swaged Hornady and Speer's also) to kill deer out of handguns (.38 SPL, 44SPL, 45 ACP and 45 Colt) with muzzle velocities of 850 - 1050 fps. They work very well, expanded nicely and killed quicker than their solid counterpart. All my shots were less than 50 yards BTW.

I cast them vary soft of pure lead but use 40-1 if needed for good fill out. I prefer GC'd bullet designs because the GC keeps leading down and They are more accurate when pushed to 950 - 1050 fps. I also prefer the larger cone concave shaped HP not deeper than the front driving band or the front of the bearing surface if the bullet doesn't have a driving band. The Lyman "Devastator" design is excellent.

The HP does provide much better terminal performance if of the right alloy and design. If a SWC or WFN design is used and the HP doesn't expand then you have the benefit of those designs anyway.....the best of both.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop Junior]

8500fps? Wow!

[Lonegun1894]

Bullshop,
If you're not getting 8500fps out of your handguns, well, just what kinda pipsqueak loads are you using? :)

I read that and I'm sure the typo was supposed to say 850 fps. If not, well, WOW!!!

[runfiverun]

Larry don't mess around :lol:

anyway I'm assuming we are dealing with store bought here.
I think I'd look at something else besides those two, something flat and a bhn of about 10.
the swaged might be iffy at 900 fps as far as stripping goes and may limit your velocity to 800 fps or so.
this would limit your distance even further.
of course a big flat nose would be iffy past 75 yds as far as good accuracy goes too.
the SAA might could go further but will do as Daniel says and make a straight line hole right through a deer. [similar to what elmer kieth talks about with his boolits]
I like two holes in an animal myself but with some destruction in between.

i'll tell you what send me your address in a p.m. and I will send you what I use in my 45's sized to 452.
one's a 250gr rnfp, [452664] it pushes through a deer but leaves a lot of internal bruising behind, they wander off about 30 yds before expiring when shot through the lungs.
and fall over where they are when shot through the shoulders.
it's good out to 50 yds in a revolver [for me] and holds under 2" for me at 100 yds in a lever gun.
it don't feed in a 73 Winchester but does perfectly in a marlin 366 and win models 92/94.
and the other is a little heavier [the 454442] swc sized to 452 also, it has a good flat point and does well in many revolvers.
they are both plain based boolits and are cast to about 11 bhn but I have pushed them both to 1600+ fps in my lever guns.

[Dryball]

I'd say it depends on how much you want to spend. Molds are, of course, cheaper...but, if you swage you can adjust the weight of your projectile. Plus, there hasn't been a better expanding boolit developed than pure PB. If there is a concern of stripping that problem can be mooted by swaging with a half jacket. If you really want expansion go with a swaged HP.

[leftiye]

I appreciate all the info fella's. I thought the soft swaged bullet might give the HP a much higher reliability than a regular JHP. Would this be true, and if so would swaged still be in second place?

I think your thinking is right on. Only issue I see is whether or not you can rely on it to open up at those slow velocities. At higher velocities (I run 1250 fps), the .45 Colt starts to buck some, and the soft swaged lead probly will lose accuracy and maybe lead your barrel.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop,
If you're not getting 8500fps out of your handguns, well, just what kinda pipsqueak loads are you using? :)

I read that and I'm sure the typo was supposed to say 850 fps. If not, well, WOW!!!

Yeah Bullshop....where ya been......

Was a typo as mentioned, been corrected on post. Thanks for the catch and the good humor about.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop Junior]

Yeah Bullshop....where ya been......

Was a typo as mentioned, been corrected on post. Thanks for the catch and the good humor about.

Larry Gibson

I always like to have some smart a$$ remark. At least this time it didn't get me in trouble.

[Larry Gibson]

I appreciate all the info fella's. I thought the soft swaged bullet might give the HP a much higher reliability than a regular JHP. Would this be true, and if so would swaged still be in second place?

See if you can find some of the Speer or Hornady swaged HPs. Their swaged SWCs can always be HP'd with the Forster 1/8" HP tool and further opened up with a tapered drill. They will expand at the lower velocities mentioned and if not then you still have the benefit of a SWC.

I will mention that you should not expect a DRT response from the deer. It does happen but more often not. Don't wait for the deer to drop dead after the 1st shot. Immediately cock the gun and shoot again if you have another good shot....and again if you can.....and again........there will be little meat damage with those bullets at that velocity. As Keith said; "you can eat right up to the hole!"

Larry Gibson

[DougGuy]

Hey Bullshop is this enough meplat for you?

Penn Bullets 270gr "Thunderhead" .45 Colt:
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/f5015d0b-a5e6-4174-ab2e-b4e1a2469d56_zpsc3900a86.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/f5015d0b-a5e6-4174-ab2e-b4e1a2469d56_zpsc3900a86.jpg.html)

OP what gun and what caliber please? The thought of 900f/s is one thing when you talking 35-50yds, but it becomes a whole lot more iffy at 100. The amount of bullet drop alone would make me want to rethink something in the mix there. Not that it can't be done, but it sure sounds like a good chance to lose a wounded deer rather than put one down right there.. There was another thread about hunting deer with a .38 special, not going to rehash that argument again in this thread but it raised a lot of questions about how practical something is, and the idea of 900f/s and a 100yd distance is tippytoeing right close to the same questionable situation.

900f/s in any caliber that starts with a 4 will humanely take a deer up close. Over about 35yds, I dunno..

[shawnba67]

I just added the 100 yd max to keep within reason and not have the discussion shift to aerodynamics and other things that dont matter from a 45lc.(im mostly a rifle guy not sure that you guys would sway it, but alot of other forums do)
I would not take a shot past the range in which I almost never miss a 6'' plate. Currently about 40yds

[C. Latch]

I just added the 100 yd max to keep within reason and not have the discussion shift to aerodynamics and other things that dont matter from a 45lc.


The problem is, aerodynamics *do* matter with a .45 Colt. If you don't believe me, try putting an 80% meplat 300-grain bullet in your .45 and push it to any speed under subsonic, and tell us how it groups at 100 yards. :(

Right now, my findings with my ruger .45 bisley, with its 1-16" rifling, is that a 76% meplat 305-grain bullet can be stable at 100 yards if driven to ~1250' MV. Lower the velocity or widen the meplat, and things go south quickly.

I hope that my next mold has a ~73% meplat. I would NOT go larger than that with another mold. Maybe 74% for a bullet I was going to push hard - which I'm not personally going to do.


edit:

If I wanted to shoot deer at 50 yards or less with a .45 Colt, I'd get a Lee 452-255-rf if I was on a tight budget, or a NOE 452-230-HP and cast it as a 250-grain FP if I had room for more leeway in the budget. I have both of those bullets and love them both in my ruger.

[Bullshop Junior]

I have a tendency to push my loads to the max. That being said, from my carbine, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer with it at any range I could make a good shot, max with that gun about 100 yards.

[300savage]

well lets see,, you were shooting turtles heads off with that thing at 30_40 yards.. you could probably stretch it a bit past 100 for something the size of a deer.
like maybe 250 with just a bit of practice with a particular load.

[DanWalker]

I shoot antelope with a 250 grain swc at 950 fps from my 45's. It punches right through them out to as far as I can hit them. My farthest to date is 113 yards. Try to place your shot so that one or both shoulders are broken, and you'll find your venison without much looking. I had a lot of trouble with long slow ugly kills when I was just lung shooting like I did with a rifle. Most of my shots now are at less than 75 yards. I punch it through their shoulders, and they either fall down or stumble and flop for 20-30 yards and die.