New choices in Health Care

[PatMarlin]

This is what one company is doing in California.

http://www.prestigeuc.com/

They don't accept insurance. They basically provide their own. I think it's a great idea and going to look into it. I don't have insurance, and I'm not signing up for Obama anytime soon until it's fully vetted and they drag me into it.

Like Matt Drudge, I'm calling the fine "The Liberty Tax"... :mrgreen:


Another Twist:

http://www.openmarket.org/2014/03/25/how-matt-drudge-and-other-obamacare-victims-can-escape-the-liberty-tax/


Major Coverage?...

Christian Healthcare Ministries
www.chministries.org

Liberty HealthShare
www.libertyhealthshare.org

Medi-Share
www.mychristiancare.org

Samaritan Ministries
www.samaritanministries.org

HealthcareSharing.Org
http://www.healthcaresharing.org/

[TXGunNut]

I'm self-pay with a major co and the premiums started out ridiculous and grew to unbelievable with the implementaion of O-care. It's good to know there are options out there. I had some pretty substantial (for me) healthcare expenses last year and my policy wasn't much help, about all that I got for my premiums was a negotiated lower price. I keep wishing more healthcare providers would give a discount for cash.
It's good to know there are options out there, it's quite obvious to everyone outside of DC that O-care simply won't work. I doubt they'll figure it out before they finish destroying our healthcare and insurance system.

[Bad Water Bill]

I fear we will not see the worst of what was included in the "we have to sign it first"total package till AFTER the 2016 election.:evil:

[PatMarlin]

Well here it is...

http://housedocs.house.gov/energycommerce/ppacacon.pdf

Download or scroll down to Sec 1501, page 148. This addresses the exemption.

I read it Nancy, I see what's in it and I see I can be exempt.

The Affordable Care Act contains a special provision for members of Healthcare Sharing Ministries, making Medi-Share members exempt from the mandate to purchase insurance in 2014 or face financial penalties. Law Language - (Sec 1501, page 148 addresses the exemption)

[PatMarlin]

148Sec. 1501 PPACA (Consolidated)

‘‘(ii) an adherent of established tenets or teachings
of such sect or division as described in such section.
‘‘(B) HEALTHCARESHARINGMINISTRY.—
‘‘(i) INGENERAL.—Such term shall not include any
individual for any month if such individual is a mem-
ber of a health care sharing ministry for the month.
‘‘(ii) HEALTHCARESHARINGMINISTRY.—The term
‘health care sharing ministry’ means an organiza-
tion—
‘‘(I) which is described in section 501(c)(3) and
is exempt from taxation under section 501(a),
‘‘(II) members of which share a common set of
ethical or religious beliefs and share medical ex-
penses among members in accordance with those
beliefs and without regard to the State in which
a member resides or is employed,
‘‘(III) members of which retain membership
even after they develop a medical condition,
‘‘(IV) which (or a predecessor of which) has
been in existence at all times since December 31,
1999, and medical expenses of its members have
been shared continuously and without interrup-
tion since at least December 31, 1999, and
‘‘(V) which conducts an annual audit which is
performed by an independent certified public ac-
counting firm in accordance with generally accept-
ed accounting principles and which is made avail-
able to the public upon request.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'm self-pay with a major co and the premiums started out ridiculous and grew to unbelievable with the implementaion of O-care. It's good to know there are options out there. I had some pretty substantial (for me) healthcare expenses last year and my policy wasn't much help, about all that I got for my premiums was a negotiated lower price. I keep wishing more healthcare providers would give a discount for cash.
It's good to know there are options out there, it's quite obvious to everyone outside of DC that O-care simply won't work. I doubt they'll figure it out before they finish destroying our healthcare and insurance system.

They all do in MN !

It's around 20%, it can vary due to the formula they use, and you have to qualify by having an annual income less than the Governor of MN ($125K)
I don't know if there is anything like this in other states, but in MN, we have what's called "The Attorney General's Discount" https://www.ag.state.mn.us/Consumer/PressRelease/FairMedicalBilling.asp

Wednesday April 4, 2007,
"Attorney General Lori Swanson and Minnesota Hospital Association President Bruce Rueben today announced an agreement between the Office of the Minnesota Attorney General and all Minnesota hospitals that establishes medical billing and debt collection standards for all hospitals in Minnesota. Under the agreement, Minnesota hospitals will not charge uninsured patients more than they charge their largest insurance companies for the same service. "

[WILCO]

I fear we will not see the worst of what was included in the "we have to sign it first"total package till AFTER the 2016 election.:evil:

It's by design Bill.

[WILCO]

I read it Nancy, I see what's in it and I see I can be exempt.

Good luck with that Pat. Obama has a pen and a phone. The law of the land can and has been changed at will. You're screwed like everyone else. Just saying.

[PatMarlin]

Good luck with that Pat. Obama has a pen and a phone. The law of the land can and has been changed at will. You're screwed like everyone else. Just saying.

Well I'm a christian.

Obviously, hundreds of 1000's of Christians across the country are opting out according to Obama's ACA written law exemption and religious beliefs according to the Constitution of the United States, with health care sharing ministries.

I opt to stand with other Christians, my faith, and pay the liberty tax if I'm forced to.

Pretty simple in my eyes.

[PatMarlin]

Looks like the smallest of the organizations, Samaritan Ministries- I linked above writes:

If you are a committed Christian, you do not have to violate your faith by purchasing health insurance from a company that pays for abortions and other unbiblical medical practices. You can live consistently with your beliefs by sharing medical needs directly with fellow believers through Samaritan Ministries’ non-insurance approach. This approach even satisfies the Federal health care law’s (Affordable Care Act) requirement that you have insurance or pay a penalty-tax (see 26 United States Code Section 5000A, (d), (2), (B)).

The IRS will be issuing details explaining how your participation in health care sharing through Samaritan Ministries will exempt you from the penalty-tax. Since those details will not be needed until 2015 when you file your 2014 tax return, it may be a while before the information is released. Samaritan Ministries is working with the IRS to develop these procedures and will notify all of its members as soon as finalized.

Every month the more than 30,000 households of Samaritan Ministries share more than $7 million in medical needs directly—one household to another. They also pray for one another and send notes of encouragement. The monthly share for a family of any size has never exceeded $370, and is even less for singles, couples, and single-parent families.

[PatMarlin]

The first link, Christian Healthcare Ministries writes:


"In the last 20 years, members have helped each other by sharing more than $1 billion in medical costs."

[quilbilly]

I wonder what will happen as more and more people switch to the above or become strictly cash for health care. I am not sure that is a bad thing getting rid of middlemen. Of course, I can see the D's putting out legislation banning using cash to pay doctors.

[PatMarlin]

Democrats claim to be the party of "Freedom of Religion" correct?

THe way you deal with progressives is to use their own written laws and regulations back at them. It works. I' know people in business today who are doing just that.

[PatMarlin]

This company here is a flat out gold mine worth of savings...

http://directLabs.com/

http://www.rxdrugcard.com/

The main message I get with this thread and what I've learned this morning is the "Free Market" of America is alive and strong today, and cannot be stopped.

There is hope yet guys.

We need to [Dump] the doom and gloom thinking... :drinks:

I'm tired of letting our government get me down, and choose not to anymore.

[woody1]

I keep wishing more healthcare providers would give a discount for cash.
.

My dentist recently began giving a 15% discount for cash. No debit card or credit card. Cash or check only. Regards, Woody

[PatMarlin]

Which one?

[PatMarlin]

Just look into what "sharing" programs you might participate with, thorough background research. A certain one in your list is now banned in several states, including my state, which many feel absolutely ripped them off over. Bad when the AG of the state steps in and sues and bans them.

Nice could you be as kind to tell us which organization and what state?

Seriously.

I want to know, and I take my time to post these types of things for members here who may be interested, so when you bring that kind of comment to the discussion, would be important to hear specifics for us all.

[Bad Water Bill]

I would also like to see verifiable proof of which he speaks otherwise it is just another TROLL trying to cause trouble.

[PatMarlin]

This is a serious subject. I'm trying to do research and make important decisions.

I don't think this thread is appropriate for "drive by" comments either. Hopefully that's not the case.

No offense Nice, but I hope you get back with us... :drinks:

[Bullshop Junior]

I'm not getting health care, because frankly the cheapest I could find was about 80 bucks a month, and I cant afford that. I can barley afford the bills I have now.

[PatMarlin]

JR- if you're like me you won't need health care for another 35 years so don't sweat it, but hellcat obama wants to get in your pocket now. They are nippin' at you young folks tails and counting on you to foot the bill to make the whole scam operate.

[Bullshop Junior]

That whole shooting myself incident made me with I had insurance, but other then that, I havnt been to a doctor since I was a kid.

[shooter93]

I bought my first health insurance policy when I was 19 and pretty much had it ever since. There were times when I wouldn't have it for a few months if work got to slow. I've seen prices rise and the last decade or so they have raised drastically. been paying near 1000 dollars a month per person for a very long time. Cash payments work in certain cases but even if you're young something can happen or you develop a disease that will cost 100's of thousands and very few people will be able to pay that out of pocket and despite what some people say they will not simply say...well. I'll just die then nor will they say it about a spouse or child.
Healthcare in this country wasn't fixed with Obama care and nothing was done to control costs. They never tried to find a system that would work and be favored by this country and they handed the insurance companies a gold mine......at least till it collapses or tax rates are so high to ay for it you starve. I was one of the first people to get the letter that my insurance was being cancelled after spending a ton of money for it. I had no choice but to buy through the exchange or go without insurance. In my case I actually got a better policy much cheaper than I was paying but for how long?...no one knows.
I don't know how they are going to ever fix the problems with healthcare. Things that made sense like letting a REAL free market run and allowing you to buy across state lines were taken out at the insistence of the insurance companies. I do think this system is here to stay no matter who wins any election...or until it fails. Maybe that's what it will take and we start over. Personally I'd like to think there is a way for people to be insured at a reasonable sum....maybe it's not possible but I'm a big supporter of a TRULY FREE MARKET system and would like to see the road blocks removed to let it work.

[Bad Water Bill]

Someone we all know needed surgery NOW but was without insurance.

A little negotiating resulted in life saving surgery being paid in cash ($1,200.00) instead of the $20,000 insurance bill.

Paper shufflers live very high on the hog.

[PatMarlin]

THat's interesting Bill. I'm keeping this thread alive, as I know there's folks interested.

OK, if that $20k bill was negotiated down to $1200, think of the power an organization has in sharing costs, even negotiated or not.

Here at Cast Boolits we now have unbelievably 33,683 members. I know not every single one is active. But just consider what power we have as a collective group...

If everyone paid into a health care sharing program here $84 each month, the cost of a set of my dies, we would have a whopping $2,829,372.00 per MONTH in revenue.

Folks thats TWO MILLION, EIGHT HUNDRED AND TWENTY NINE THOUSAND, THREE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY TWO.... DOLLARS per month!

Start to get the picture of how something like this works?

THink of the collective we would have as Cast Shooters Globally.

CSG could offer various levels of programs like the Christian organizations.

[shooter93]

One of the few times I was without health insurance for a couple months I had a 30k problem. There was absolutely NO negotiation on the price...period. It will work for some smaller walk in clinics here but a major hospital it won't. And of course if it's an emergency surgery or you're brought in unconscious there wouldn't be a whole lot of negotiating either I wouldn't suppose. Not to say ideas here aren't worth pursuing and may work better in some places than others. A great deal needs fixed with health care no doubt about it and it has to start somewhere and it doesn't appear like it will ever happen well at a Federal level. Truth is..I actually look for some repairs to be made with Obama care if Hillary wins and I think it will be expanded. The gray hairs are going to start asking for a reasonably priced Medicare supplement added and then look out.

[PatMarlin]

Yea that Obama care is undeniably working according to them.

7 plus million sign up

6 million plus lose their insurance they were very happy with and have to pay huge sums more for less coverage and higher deductibles.

Billions spent of our dollars on promotion and the website.

People lose their full time jobs due to insurance costs, lose their doctors.

What a great deal.

[daniel lawecki]

Why does the government have to give insurance. They are to govern this is more hand outs everyone complains about.

[shooter93]

They give it out Daniel to garner votes. Their only motivation for anything is to stay in office. Personally I don't believe in any benefits for public employees which I think is a real factor in the ever increasing insurance and health care costs. Pay someone what a job is worth and take care of yourself....those days seem gone forever now though.

[dtknowles]

Someone we all know needed surgery NOW but was without insurance.

A little negotiating resulted in life saving surgery being paid in cash ($1,200.00) instead of the $20,000 insurance bill.

Paper shufflers live very high on the hog.

I am glad someone who needed life saving surgery got it at a price they could afford. I expect that charity was involved as $1200 would not pay for a nurse, surgeon and anesthesiologist. Add to that the surgery suit, medicines, equipment, recovery room and any overhead to run the hospital. The charity involved was quite likely borne by the people who pay the full rate.

Tim

[popper]

Please note that those are basically unregulated co-ops.

[plmitch]

Some interesting opinions here..........

[Bad Water Bill]

I am glad someone who needed life saving surgery got it at a price they could afford. I expect that charity was involved as $1200 would not pay for a nurse, surgeon and anesthesiologist. Add to that the surgery suit, medicines, equipment, recovery room and any overhead to run the hospital. The charity involved was quite likely borne by the people who pay the full rate.

Tim

IIRC the hospital was $750.00

Anesthesiologist was $250.00

Surgeon was about $200.00

Everyone was contacted, the condition and patient were explained and all agreed to take those charges in cash and they said PAID IN FULL.

Gaul bladder surgery is not that big a job today.

My own brother went in and was back home in about 6 hours with a couple band aids covering the 2 incisions.

Of course the gaul bladder had to stay at the hospital. :lol:

[RogerDat]

If your going to pay the "tax" you might want to find out what it is. Below a certain income level it's pretty small but above that it becomes a percentage of income. https://www.healthcare.gov/what-if-i-dont-have-health-coverage/ Those penalties go up each year also.

This article lists several state and national surveys, tracking efforts, and insurance industry counts which put the number of additional people with insurance at around 9 million, the number that became uninsured at 1 million. All those surveys and reports can be verified and examined if you want to follow up. But the claims of 6 million added and 6 million lost appear to be unsubstantiated political rhetoric from what I could find.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obamacare-uninsured-national-20140331,0,6550360,full.story#axzz2xhOQgfbK

Not saying that this law is the "solution" or perfect but do think it's important to examine it's faults, benefits, and alternatives honestly. Same as we would the relative merits of casting equipment or lubes. Just like those things folks can have an opinion, and they are entitled to that opinion. But opinion is not the same as facts.

I actually expect the enrollment will continue to grow, several life events (marriage, birth, moving to different state etc.) create an opportunity to sign up outside of the open enrollment period, just as they do with my employers private group plan.

Next year unless premiums go up a lot open enrollment will probably add a lot more, and some states that did not adopt Medicaid expansion part of the law are planning to revisit that decision. And that sign up is open pretty much all year. I think it is a better than 50/50 chance that by 2016 around 20 million people will have coverage, repealing it then without something to replace it would be political suicide. I could be wrong but that is my guess.

[DCP]

Tax
1st year $95.00 or 1% of income which one is the greatest source NBC news
So if you made $40,000
(tax) would be $400.00

Didn't say anything about a spouse or children $400.00 x 2 x3 x4?

Remember it goes up after the 1st year

[Wis. Tom]

Obamacare is about control. Nothing else. All the "good" coverage comes with a higher deductible and the IRS is now in complete control, of what you have left to live, what you have to pay, what you can and can not own, and what you can leave your kids. The rates go up every year, why? Because the banks must have inflation, or they stop functioning as a unit. More money must be through debt, or we wouldn't need them. Do you really think they care about your health cost? Why then, was the fact that malpractice insurance was not even touched on, in the thousands of pages of the bill, and that is the one thing that drives the cost of what we pay, in bills, to the hospitals, and it is the only thing keeping small town doctors, from having their own little places, for the non emergencies, that you could go to, and would drive the cost down, but big business will not stand for that. It also helps that most Democrats in Congress, are lawyers, and who benefits more from malpractice lawsuits than, you guessed it, lawyers. This is not about healthcare, and it's not suppose to work. It is suppose to collapse and hence forth, the one payer system, which we all fall in line, and pay our govt. directly, for insurance, in which they wanted in the first place. Just saying...

[Handloader109]

Cash discount is fine, But, may not be enough. Wife had a heart attack in Jan and then subsequent 3 day visit to get new medication regulated. Close to 40k total. One bill alone was reduced by 25k by the insurance company. Way more than a 20% discount. Glad I have Good insurance and not nobamacare!
I'm out $2500 as max out of pocket.

[dtknowles]

IIRC the hospital was $750.00

Anesthesiologist was $250.00

Surgeon was about $200.00

Everyone was contacted, the condition and patient were explained and all agreed to take those charges in cash and they said PAID IN FULL.

Gaul bladder surgery is not that big a job today.

My own brother went in and was back home in about 6 hours with a couple band aids covering the 2 incisions.

Of course the gaul bladder had to stay at the hospital. :lol:

That was a little different than I was thinking. Outpatient surgery not a more complicated condition, maybe no charity involved just everyone cutting their profit a little.

Tim

[popper]

No, they don't cut profit - just make up the diff. elsewhere. Dallas county welfare hosp. is $35M over budget cause they decided all rooms would be private. Contract creep. Taxpayer makes up the diff. AND the additional cost of the billing on private rooms. Medicare/medicaid doesn't pay that. Pretty soon all the sports stadiums will be primarily boxes - cause they can charge more.

[shooter93]

Also Bill....and this is just my guess....but they will make it up easily by getting the difference from people who have been buying insurance and with the large sums they command will of course be passed on to those buying the insurance in higher premiums. I find it doubtful it was totally done out of the kindness of their hearts. I've had people tell me that aren't insured that they don't worry about huge medical bills because they will simply declare bankruptcy. Want to guess who also pays for those people?
This mess is not an easy fix and it's not going away nor being repealed. Polls you take with a grain of salt but more and more I hear "don't end it...mend it" I'm not sure that's possible but the healthcare debate is here to stay I'm sure.

[RogerDat]

Yeah the problem has been around for decades. This Obamacare is essentially a re-hash of a plan Republicans almost passed back when Nixon was president. Democrats prevented passage in Congress because they thought they could pass Medicare expansion to cover the uninsured with sliding scale premiums. Whoops.

The exchanges, required to purchase insurance, and subsidies for lower incomes were all in that Republican supported bill back in the early 70's. Back then Republicans supported it in part because the insurance exchanges are a free market approach. Not much different than putting out requirements for a bid to private companies to bid on. Idea being that large insurance pools can be insured for lower premiums.

The devil may be in the details but the overall idea and basic plan was Republican long before Obama and the Democrats passed it. That was one of the reasons that Romney thought it was OK politically to sign it into law as a Republican governor. Back then it was still thought of as Republican idea.

[DCP]

Yeah the problem has been around for decades. This Obamacare is essentially a re-hash of a plan Republicans almost passed back when Nixon was president. Democrats prevented passage in Congress because they thought they could pass Medicare expansion to cover the uninsured with sliding scale premiums. Whoops.

The exchanges, required to purchase insurance, and subsidies for lower incomes were all in that Republican supported bill back in the early 70's. Back then Republicans supported it in part because the insurance exchanges are a free market approach. Not much different than putting out requirements for a bid to private companies to bid on. Idea being that large insurance pools can be insured for lower premiums.

The devil may be in the details but the overall idea and basic plan was Republican long before Obama and the Democrats passed it. That was one of the reasons that Romney thought it was OK politically to sign it into law as a Republican governor. Back then it was still thought of as Republican idea.

OH MY The only thing left out was IT WAS BUSH FAULT! (Where do the people come from MARS)

Remember It was only vote YES by THE DEMS. Not 0NE vote by the GOP

Then there is NANCY We have to pass it to see whats in it.

[Bad Water Bill]

[QUOTE=DCP;2717649Then there is NANCY We have to pass it to see whats in it.[/QUOTE]

Would a lawyer keep their license if they told a client the same thing?

She has been reported as being the wealthiest member of congress so what would she care about the common PEON?:evil:

[RogerDat]

Simply put I was paying attention to politics back then just as I do now. This time only democrats voted for it, back then it did not get enough democrats to support it in order to pass, more republicans voted for it than democrats back then. Bush has nothing to do with it, Nancy doesn't either. It was well before their time since Nixon was president.

It is after all private insurance companies selling insurance in the exchange, democrats wanted back then (and some still do) Medicare for all with sliding scale premiums.

It's like a lot of history. There is what we want to believe and there is what happened. Example did republicans pass the 1964 civil rights act? They were not the majority party put in the senate majority of them voted yea, more so than the democrats, southern democrats all voted against it and back then the democrats had a majority in much of the south.