Shotgun powders in large bore rifle?

[mikeym1a]

I recently acquired an old Belgium military rifle called the Comblain. This is a large falling block of unique design. I have made up some cases, and boolits, and am preparing to load. While trying to decide on a load, I got to looking at shotgun loads. As this is a big cartridge with a 3/4 oz boolit with a MV of approx 1200-1400fps, why couldn't shotgun powders of some form be used? This is in the Shotgun lead charge range, and MV, so, why not shotgun powder? I have seen Red Dot used in some reduced loads for some .30 & .32 cal rifle rounds, so, why not? The Comblain is a .45 firearm. The case is made from a shortened 32 guage shotshell brass. Any good reason shotgun powder could not be used? Now, I do have suitable rifle powder, but I also have a LOT of red dot. (Well to me it is a lot.) Much more than my rifle powder. Any Ideas, anyone? mikey

[Sensai]

Mikey, unless I'm mistaken the Comblain is/was a black powder rifle. If it were mine, I'd stick to black powder cartridges. If you feel the absolute need to go with smokeless powder, I'd suggest a lot of time with Quickload or a program like it. You can build the cartridge and rifle specifications in QL and study pressure curves and peak pressures with different powders. Of course, like with any computer modeling, the info you receive is just an approximation and shouldn't be used directly as load data without working up the load. Best wishes, that's a fine old rifle.

[sav300]

In single shot rifles,I think there is a article on the Complains

[Walter Laich]

I use Red Dot in my 45=70 rolling block but it's at light pistol load levels. I kinda like the 1-2 seconds it takes to get out to the targets. A few fellow shooters say they can see the bullet 'rainbow' out to the targets (better eyes than mine.)
.
One other advantage is zero recoil

[Wayne Smith]

Do a search. Buckshot has posted quite a bit on the Comblain.

[dondiego]

The 45-70 is a .45 caliber black powder cartridge with a similar velocity. Wouldn't data for it be a good place to start?

[Outpost75]

My friends in Italy all shoot pre-1891 militaries which are their "curio & relic" categories for which factory ammunition is not available, and for which permits and licensing are more simple than for modern guns. The common formula for all of these 11mm-13mm rifles is a soft cast bullet of weight and shape similar to the service bullet, and a charge of shotgun powder to give 300-350 m/s.

They say that any shotgun powder suitable for loading 12-ga. field and target loads with 32 grams of shot, at a velocity not exceeding 350m/s is OK to use, with the starting load for an 11mm rifle being one half of the 12-ga. charge, then adjusting in small increments for best accuracy. Once rounds start going supersonic and the report starts to "crack!" You must be very careful and adjust charges in small increments for best grouping only!

They shoot ten-shot groups only, at 100 meters. Do not shoot over a chronograph, shoot groups on paper! Watching velocity rather than group formation is a distraction. The only purpose of a chronograph is to provide a benchmark for a load which had already been proven to "work" so that you can find the "sweet spot" again if your source of powder or lead changes. They use no fillers in the cartridge case and often modify original Berdan cases to use shotshell primers. Another reason to keep loads light.

They consider a ten-shot group of 1 mil, or 10cm at 100 meters or 5cm at 50 meters to be excellent accuracy with these antique rifles.

[Big Steve]

I just loaded and shot home cast 158 gr LSWC/ 12 grains of Unique in my .356 Winchester for plinkers yesterday. Shot perfectly, only issue I had was that the bullet is too short/blunt to feed well in the Winchester, but with a little care and manipulation they worked just fine.

[beagle]

No doubt you could work up a load with Red Dot that would get the bullet to the target but don't try and go for any velocity as that stuff pressure spikes really quick and that's a BP gun.

Maybe start with some of Lyman's starting loads for the .45/70 trapdoor and see how they feel to you./beagle

[MtGun44]

Yes, and Unique would be a good choice.

Bill

[mikeym1a]

Thanks for the input of all. The matter bears further study. mikey

[mikeym1a]

My friends in Italy all shoot pre-1891 militaries which are their "curio & relic" categories for which factory ammunition is not available, and for which permits and licensing are more simple than for modern guns. The common formula for all of these 11mm-13mm rifles is a soft cast bullet of weight and shape similar to the service bullet, and a charge of shotgun powder to give 300-350 m/s.

They say that any shotgun powder suitable for loading 12-ga. field and target loads with 32 grams of shot, at a velocity not exceeding 350m/s is OK to use, with the starting load for an 11mm rifle being one half of the 12-ga. charge, then adjusting in small increments for best accuracy. Once rounds start going supersonic and the report starts to "crack!" You must be very careful and adjust charges in small increments for best grouping only!

They shoot ten-shot groups only, at 100 meters. Do not shoot over a chronograph, shoot groups on paper! Watching velocity rather than group formation is a distraction. The only purpose of a chronograph is to provide a benchmark for a load which had already been proven to "work" so that you can find the "sweet spot" again if your source of powder or lead changes. They use no fillers in the cartridge case and often modify original Berdan cases to use shotshell primers. Another reason to keep loads light.

They consider a ten-shot group of 1 mil, or 10cm at 100 meters or 5cm at 50 meters to be excellent accuracy with these antique rifles.

Outpost75, that you for your response. What your friends are doing are along the lines I was thinking. Since this old rifle shoots about the same velocity and lead load level as a shotgun, why couldn't shotgun powder be used? That was my thought. Yes, other powders are available. But, I as a goodly amount of two different shotgun powders in store at my location. My thought was, if 'X' powder will drive a given charge of shot at 1200fps-1400fps, they why would it not be usable for a similar shot charge out of my rifle, since the rifles intended MV is the same as the shot loads. Plus, the amount of powder used in these shot loads is less than I might be using with the rifle powder. If I had a ready supply of my preferred powders, that would be different, but, those powders are not presently available. This is the reason for my question. Thanks again. mikey

[Outpost75]

The Italians do not use the same powders that we do, because powder is expensive. They use data from the Lyman handbooks and have determined which powders they do get, Vectan, etc. are roughly equivalent to Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, etc. They make comparison velocity firings using 300-grain bullets in a .44 Magnum rifle, having a strong action, then determine that Vectan Red uses Unique data, and Vectan Yellow uses Herco data, and that Granular Cheddite approximates #2400. Once they have working loads in the. 44 Mag which track on a charge/velocity basis with the US powder in the .44 Mag. rifle, they can progress from there to. 45-70, 11mm Mauser, 11.4 Vetterli, .577 Snider, etc. Works for them.

They use only pistol or shotgun primers, on the theory that those will show pressure signs first. These loads are for target use only. For full power hunting ammunition blackpowder is still preferred in the calibers over 11mm, lubricatex with tallow or lard from last year's kill. Great tradition. In bocca al lupo!

[runfiverun]

good on georgio, he is a font of cool useful information from that part of the world.

[dverna]

Outpost75,

I have no interest in doing these things but most interested in want you posted. It goes to show what people are capable of accomplishing with little or no resources. We are so spoiled in this country.

Thank you for sharing.

Don Verna