What do you consider the minium velocity for a .30-

[twoshotc]

velocity

[twoshotc]

I messed up--lets try again. What do you consider the minimum velocity for a 170 gr water dropped WW for deer hunting. I am looking for a starting place for reloading a .30-.30.

[Nrut]

I don't know that there is a correct answer to your question..

I will say that from shooting milk jugs filled with water and backed upped by old catalogs that low vel. WDWW penetrate like a bugger with little or no expansion..
I wouldn't use that combo myself for hunting..

You could anneal the nose to improve expansion..

[bugs]

I agree to hard for hunting cast some more but forget the the water drop

[shredder]

I look for 1800-1850 wherever best accuracy is. The water drop is going to make your boolits too hard. You want some expansion so either straight WW ,or ,50-50 WW and pure lead which is how I shoot my hunting boolits. They work very very well in the 30-30 and in my 30-06.

[Smoke4320]

personally I would go 50/50 forget the water drop .. start at about 1600 FPS.. do a ladder test and concentrate on the closest nodes.. accuracy is better an fast in my opinion YMMV
after my expansion testing (on at least 7 different calibers) on straight ww-2% tin and 50/50 .I will shoot only 50/50 for hunting if I can

[waksupi]

I had a conversation about this with Veral Smith a couple years ago. I seem to remember once you get down to .30 bore, 1400 fps is about the minimum for deer.

[runfiverun]

a 160-170 gr boolit at 12-1400 fps is pretty close to a 357 mags performance.
if the distances are similar, the on target results should be similar, if the alloy's are similar.

[quilbilly]

Some time back I did a terminal ballistics test on my 30/30 with the Lee 160 gr RN gas check boolit. The media was soaked phonebooks with a piece of plywood veneer one inch in to simulate a clipped rib. The distance was 40 yards. At a MV of 1550 fps I got over 17" of penetration and a huge wound channel due to the tumbling boolit. With results like that, clearly the MV of 1550 is adequate on deer out to 100 yards and a bit beyond.

[jhalcott]

I use ACWW to a MUZZLE velocity close to 2000 fps for general DEER hunting. I HAVE gone down to about 1600 fps with 150 grain slugs for crop raiding does with great success. I killed quite a few deer with a velocity LESS than 1100 fps with a 175 grain 7MM bullet on a culling operation. WHAT are the legal regulations about speed/energy where you will be hunting? I needed special permits for that 7MM load as this area requires a minimum of 1200 foot pounds of energy to be legal!

[Crawdaddy]

Don't know the minimum but I got a buck last year with my 30/30 AI Contender at about 1300 fps. Didn't walk very far

[Larry Gibson]

I messed up--lets try again. What do you consider the minimum velocity for a 170 gr water dropped WW for deer hunting. I am looking for a starting place for reloading a .30-.30.

Going to depend on several things relative to where you hunt;

How big are the deer?
What is the max range you'll shoot a deer?
Do you want them dead quickly to prevent loss?

In my case the deer run 125 - 200+ lbs.

Where I hunt shots can be as long as you want to take but I have limited myself to 200 yards with cast.

I want the deer dead as quick as possible as to mitigate; the deer getting into thick brush and/or a deep canyon, the deer traveling a long distance before dying. The deer being shot again and tagged by another hunter, etc.

While I've conducted a lot of expansion tests in various mediums I'm offering this advice based on many, many deer killed with a 311041 and the 311041HP over my 40+ years of hunting with that bullet in the 30-30, the .308W and the 30-06. To get reliable expansion at 200 yards with a softer alloy (I use COWWs + 2% tin and then mixed 50/50 with lead and AC the bullets) a terminal velocity of 1500 fps is desired. Reliable expansion at 200 yards is also why I use the 311041HP with the HP pin being altered so the HP is 3/16" deep.

Thus in any of the cartridges I strive for hunting accuracy at 2050 - 2150 fps muzzle velocity. In your 30-30 I suggest a softer alloy with your 170 gr Lee cast bullet and the use of LeveRevoltion powder to achieve 2100+ fps out of a 20" Carbine with normal 30-30 pressures.

Larry Gibson

[Slow Elk 45/70]

I just thought I had something to say....but Larry just took all the wind out of my sails.....He speaks the truth...Listen and learn...Jim

[nanuk]

I just thought I had something to say....but Larry just took all the wind out of my sails.....He speaks the truth...Listen and learn...Jim

I have come to understand that, and look forward to Mr. Gibson's replies

[badbob454]

yes what Larry said , practically a saint in the cast and shooting world ,, kidding , but i have never heard wrong from him i would reccomend very much the same

[nanuk]

yes what Larry said , practically a saint in the cast and shooting world ,, kidding , but i have never heard wrong from him i would reccomend very much the same


If Larry can make miracles happen with a 30-30.... well, isn't that how one DOES get nominated for Sainthood?

[Outpost75]

a 160-170 gr boolit at 12-1400 fps is pretty close to a 357 mags performance.
if the distances are similar, the on target results should be similar, if the alloy's are similar.

This is what a plain-base, 175-grain, flat-nose, cup-point (1/4" meplat) cast 1:25 tin/lead, does at 1340 fps into water jugs. The mold started as an RCBS 30-180FN. Erik Ohlen at www.hollowpointmold.com bored out the GC heel to provide a .312" base band. He also shortened and truncated the nose to provide a larger, 1/4" meplat and did a Cramer style conversion to a cup point to 0.15" diameter with 60 degree draft angle. And YES, it kills deer too!

I wanted a light recoil .30-30 load which approximates .32-40 performance, and this does it.

100563

[badbob454]

nice a perfect mushroom ..

[357maximum]

I killed a buck last year at about 50 yards with a 1200FPS .30 from a 32/20 approximation case ......the buck simply jumped/hopped/took a few steps and then tipped. I would not recommend everyone to use those ballistics, but for a bowhunter that simply happens to use a gun occassionally it worked just dandy. Not everyone is gonna want to live within the "restrictions" that come with such ballistics however. I live/hunt in a target rich environments and if you pass an opportunity "today" another will likely come along "tomorrow"...or later in the day. Not everyone has such a luxury......In the end it is up to the law and the hunter to decide what "minimum" is. I think I found my personal minimum in that 30Badger round, but I KNOW I "could" use slower with similar effect....not sure I ever would make that choice.....just never know though. ???????

[Ben]

This is what a plain-base, 175-grain, flat-nose, cup-point (1/4" meplat) cast 1:25 tin/lead, does at 1340 fps into water jugs. The mold started as an RCBS 30-180FN. Erik Ohlen at www.hollowpointmold.com bored out the GC heel to provide a .312" base band. He also shortened and truncated the nose to provide a larger, 1/4" meplat and did a Cramer style conversion to a cup point to 0.15" diameter with 60 degree draft angle. And YES, it kills deer too!

I wanted a light recoil .30-30 load which approximates .32-40 performance, and this does it.

100563

Is it the photo or is the HP cavity " off - center " ?

[Outpost75]

Not off center, it's caused by the angle of the photo and cropping.

[Ben]

I figured if Erik did the work, it was in the photo.

Thanks,
Ben

[Alferd Packer]

For Foot Pounds Energy=Square the velocity, divide by 450400 and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Works for anything jacketed or Lead.
Easy on a calculator or slide rule.

170 grain bullet at 1000 fps= 377.44 ft lbs. at the muzzle
170 gr bullet @ 1400 fps = 739.79 ft lbs "" ""
" " @ 1600 fps = 966.25 ft lbs "" ""
" " @ 1800 fps = 1222.91 ft lbs """ ""
" " @ 2000 fps = 1510 ft.lbs. all at the muzzle, 1102 ft lbs @ 100yds, 812 ft lbs @ 200yds
" " @ 2200 fps=1827 ft lbs at muzzle, 1348 ft lbs@100yd, 979 ft lbs at 200 yds
Using 2200 fps, rifle zero @100 yards, .5 inch high @ 50 yds.
bullet drop @ 150 yds= 3 inch drop,
@ 200 yds= 9 inch drop
@ 250 yds= 18 inch drop
@ 300 yds= 31.5 inch drop
The bullet drop is how high you would have to (AIM THE RIFLE SIGHTS) hold over the target point to stike the target at that distance. Holding over a deer at any required amount, you would of course have to aim lower to strike the center of the deer. This should be practiced to fully understand as a rifleman and to be successful at using holdover or Kentucky windage as its sometimes called.

Always try to get as close to 1000 ft lbs energy on target to kill man or beast reliably with a well placed shot. Allways with a well-placed shot and some good luck present.Higher velocity can sure help
for example:
170 gr bullet started @ 1400 fps muzzle vel and zeroed @ 100 yds
is 2 inches high @ 50 yds
zero @ 100yds
8 inches low @ 150 yds
22.6 low @ 200 yds
44.5 in low @ 250 yds
74.3 in low @ 300 yds
Higher velocity helps accuracy quite a bit when hunting, but I prefer the lower velocity lead loads when shooting for fun. They are pleasant, cheaper and I like casting, reloading and shooting.
The above ballistics came from Lyman cast bullet manual 3rd edition.
I hope I didn't make any errors copying them, but I'm a 1946 edition myownself and that's my only excuse if any needed. Please verify before using. All IMHO.
Thank you to Larry Gibson and everyone contributing.
I love this Forum!

[wvmedic]

Thank you Larry Gibson, that is exactly what I've been looking for in my 30-06.

[1Shirt]

Just my opinion, but I want about 1800 fps, minimum for a 30 for deer hunting and I prefer a hollow point. Lesser will of course do the job with proper placement, but proper placement does not always happen.
1Shirt!

[fatnhappy]

I figured if Erik did the work, it was in the photo.

Thanks,
Ben

Funny, that exact thought ran through my mind as well.
Let's see, a plain based .30-30 that's coated with LLA seems like about as frugal as means of killing deer as a man can invent.

FWIW to the original poster: If you fire a .30-30 over a impartial chronograph with factory ammo you'll be shocked how very plebian a round needs to be to be considered world class. Larry gave you better advice than I can tender. Just a random note from my perspective, the older I get the heavier I like my boolits. The 311290s loaded below see double duty in a springfield 1903 and my winchester model 70. Weighing close to 220 grains (checked and lubed) they'll travel through 2 feet of deer in a straight line at 2000 fps. YMMV.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/v/t1.0-9/1536611_269910726519861_809353070_n.jpg?oh=ffcee11 b4fd465fc14a842e9c3c862fa&oe=5397F74F&__gda__=1403351577_5815f5842152a041fbde3f200d90e16 3

[NYBushBro]

This would be what I call the 'grail' of CB hunting performance.

This is what a plain-base, 175-grain, flat-nose, cup-point (1/4" meplat) cast 1:25 tin/lead, does at 1340 fps into water jugs. The mold started as an RCBS 30-180FN. Erik Ohlen at www.hollowpointmold.com bored out the GC heel to provide a .312" base band. He also shortened and truncated the nose to provide a larger, 1/4" meplat and did a Cramer style conversion to a cup point to 0.15" diameter with 60 degree draft angle. And YES, it kills deer too!

I wanted a light recoil .30-30 load which approximates .32-40 performance, and this does it.

100563

[ksfowler166]

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I am assuming that the 30-30 was originally used to hunt deer. So if the velocity of black powder in rifles is the same for shotguns and pistols than the minimum velocity (actually max velocity for BP) should be around 900fps with a pure lead bullet.

[Elkins45]

More velocity is always better but you already knew that. As fast as can be fired accurately with your gun, mold and alloy is another answer. You probably already knew that too.

Mainly I just replied to join the chorus urging you not to water harden your alloy. 30 is a little too small to rely on punch thru as a killing mechanism. I would give different advice if it were a 45-70. Little boolets probably need some expansion to maximize their killing effect.

You question does make me think about how effective a big 230 grainer from pure lead would be at subsonic speeds from a suppressed Blackout. Does the weight and pure lead composition make up for the slow speed?

[emrah]

Well, I dunno about deer, but I shot a 120lb hog in January with my 30-30. The Lee C309-170-FP sized .311 and lla lubed and gas checked weighs 182-ish grains. With 16 grains of A2400 it goes 1620fps out of my gun. Took a few shots to bring down.

Of the two boolits I recovered, one was a perfect mushroom found on the offside skin (chest shot). The other was mangled when it hit ribs.

I used mostly stick on wheel weights water dropped. Now, I've since learned that since its almost put lead, water dropping may not do a damn thing!

I was hoping this would be a 100 yard deer load, but judging by how much it took to bring that bastard down, I'm re-thinking it.

Emrah

[popper]

Per some hunting posts, subs in BO are limited to good shots @ < 50 yds.

[Lonegun1894]

This is regarding hogs, and not deer, but maybe will be of some use...

This will stir up a hornets nest, so before I go further, please understand that I do not recommend this as a standard hunting load, but rather just to share something I have used and thought might help in this discussion. Now this was to deal with a special situation involving a landowner who has a serious hog problem, but whos wife can't stand the thought of ANYTHING being killed, even though the hogs have been doing some serious property and crop damage, and have gone so far as to kill one of their dogs and several new-born calves. So the request was made that a friend of mine and I figure out a way to kill these hogs quietly, as a way to try to control the problem while keeping the guy's wife clueless as to what is going on so it keeps peace at home for them, hopefully. Well, we go out to his place now and then to do some "night fishing" at the river that is his property line, which keeps us 2-300yds from the house, and behind a thick tree line (out of sight of his wife), and start hunting. Mostly I use a Marlin 336 .30-30 or an H&R Handi-rifle .44Mag, both loaded with 3.0grs Unique, and a Lee 170gr FNGC for the .30-30 or a Lee 240gr SWC for the .44. We either wait for them to come to bait or water, or move slowly and stay at least 100yds from the house, and keep our shots to 50 yds or less on these hogs. I prefer head shots, because they drop in their tracks, but heart/lung shots also work, except they result in a 10-40yd run/walk away before the hog drops. This is the same reaction/performance I get when using a subsonic .22LR, for what it's worth, if that helps anyone. The bullets, cast out of soft range scrap soft enough scratch with a fingernail, so close to pure, do NOT deform unless they hit bone, and even then it isn't much, even though they have no problem penetrating the skull or ribs. I have been careful to not hit a shoulder blade to make sure I take both lungs for a quicker kill. When they miss ribs, they just pencil on through and tumble looking like the "knife-like" wounds like described by .300BO users here but mostly in a straight line. If they hit, there is a little shattered bone and the bullet tumbles still, but it seems there is a little deflection and a slight curve to the bullet path through the meat. I hope that makes sense.

Now this type of hunting requires self-discipline to pass up anything but a perfect shot, cause if I screw up, the animal suffers unnecessarily, so I see a LOT more than I shoot. Also, we hunt by the full moon and a couple days before and after only, and when there's no clouds to give us the best chance to do this responsibly, and avoid using lights so his wife doesn't find out. It feels like poaching, but is perfectly legal here cause hogs are fair game anytime, by any means, as long as you have the land owners permission. So I wouldn't use this for deer, which would be illegal due to our night time hunting, but our only caliber limitation for deer hunting is that we have to use a centerfire caliber, weather that is a .50 BMG, or a .25 ACP, or anything in between.

[barrabruce]

Lonegun I believe you summed up the subsonic bullet thing very well.

If you can pick your shots you can do wonderfull things with a lowly 22lr and much better with anything bigger.

Its just waiting and being able to pass up a shot if things aren't right that makes the difference.

Just for interest how do you think a high shoulder shot on a pig go with the 30 cal.
Would it anchor it down for a coupe de gras???

I'm a one in the noggin fan myself.

[Lonegun1894]

I have put pigs down with the high shoulder shot using full power cast loads before, but those broke the spine also, so that isn't a surprise. I have not tried using these very low velocity loads on a shoulder blade shot yet, even though I have been curious about it myself. To be honest, the deflection seen when these loads strike ribs, and keep in mind the ribs are weaker than the shoulder blades, make me very hesitant to try it. Now one thing I have considered is to have my partner ready to put one just behind the shoulder blade while I put one in it, just to see if it works, so he acts as the safety to make sure the hog goes down, but we haven't done it yet. Actually, you just gave me an idea. I will try to prop the next one up against a tree or something and shoot it directly through the shoulder blade after it is dead. It won't tell us if it will drop, but at least we will know if it penetrates the shoulder blade to make this a viable shot, or one to be avoided. I am kind of thinking it is probably one to be avoided though, since this is a specialty load and a very light one at that, so pushing the limits of what is doable/responsible.

[L Ross]

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I am assuming that the 30-30 was originally used to hunt deer. So if the velocity of black powder in rifles is the same for shotguns and pistols than the minimum velocity (actually max velocity for BP) should be around 900fps with a pure lead bullet.
If I may. The 30-30 (30 w.c.f.) was never a black powder cartridge, it was always loaded with smokeless powder and the original bullet weight was 160 grains and the velocity was around 1,900 fps.
Your estimation of black powder velocity is a bit low. A cartridge that was originally a black powder round of similar case capacity is the 32-40. With black powder a 170 grain projectile can attain 1300 to 1400 fps. Normally they have a 1 in 16 twist considered more "friendly" to black powder.

Duke

[Larry Gibson]

Big difference between what will "kill" and what we might want for "hunting" as we see from various posts. I killed my 1st deer with a 6" barreled M&P S&W .38 SPL with REM-UMC 158 gr lead RNs. Shot was maybe 15 yards and the deer di not go "quietly into the night" but traveled some distance after being shot through the heart. Thus while the .38 SL obviously "kills" deer under certain conditions it isn't my choice to "hunt" with.

What we find useful for hunting will very much depend on the size of our game, the ranges at which we can shoot them, the conditions during the hunt and the style of hunting we use. As we also see from the numerous posts here there isn't going to be a "correct" answer of one for everything. I quickly found it Texas shooting deer from a stand over bait I was way over gunned with my '06 with jacketed bullets. Thus I switched to my 35 Rem with cast and found it superb. The '06 certainly would have been with cast also but I didn't take any cast loads with me (I know, foolish of me). Frankly I would have been quite comfortable shooting those deer (white tail and Sika, SP?) with a rifle using any number of lessor cartridges with cast also from the 30 Carbine to the '06 or any of the .31 milsurp cartridges. Any of them loaded with a proper cast bullet in the 1600 - 1800 fps range would have been superb. However, out west where still hunting and spot and stalk hunting are most often used with shots ranging from 10 yards to as far away as you dare shoot I prefer the criteria for a .30 cal cast bullet as described in my previous posts. The deer aren't any harder to kill just different type of hunting and different conditions.

Larry Gibson

[BAGTIC]

I believe the original factoty 30-30 loading was a 160 grain bullet at 1900 fps.

[FNGC]

This Is EXACTLY the Type Of Information I Joined Up For!


This is what a plain-base, 175-grain, flat-nose, cup-point (1/4" meplat) cast 1:25 tin/lead, does at 1340 fps into water jugs. The mold started as an RCBS 30-180FN. Erik Ohlen at www.hollowpointmold.com bored out the GC heel to provide a .312" base band. He also shortened and truncated the nose to provide a larger, 1/4" meplat and did a Cramer style conversion to a cup point to 0.15" diameter with 60 degree draft angle. And YES, it kills deer too!

I wanted a light recoil .30-30 load which approximates .32-40 performance, and this does it.

100563

[1Shirt]

For what ever it is worth, believe that those in the know think that it takes about 900 fpe to be effective on deer at whatever range. Of course, this shoots the handgun factor out of the water big time. I believe you have to hit'em to get'em, and you have to hit'em in the right place, with the right bullet at the right vol, and if you have that you have probably got it figured out pretty well.
1Shirt!

[pls1911]

Don't over analyze it.
Find what 160-180 grain bullet your gun likes at 1700-1900 fps, put the bullet where it counts, and critters fall, DRT.
Hard and gas checks works for me.
Shoot enough for your gun to be an extension of yourself.
Your success will come.