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View Full Version : Help to choose boolits for 1893 Cattleman .45LC



Korporal
03-24-2014, 08:25 AM
Hey. I am going to start casting boolits for a Uberti 1873 Cattleman 1873 45LC.
I am pretty fresh to handguns and hand loading handgun ammo.
Is there any boolit types that are more used in this gun/caliber than others and why?
I am going to use this gun for everything but hunting. That is not allowed I Norway, sadly!

Best regards
Glenn

Foto Joe
03-24-2014, 10:36 AM
I've played with numerous loads for the 45 Colt and it's one of my favorite guns (I've got three right now). The historic load for that gun is actually a 250-255 grain slug that will send a considerable amount of lead downrange and if loaded with Black Powder will also sting your hand pretty good. I choose not to push that much lead for simply hitting steel plates or putting holes in paper.

I've got three Lee molds that I've used for 45 Colt, 160gr RNFP, 200gr SWC and 230gr RN. Of the three the 200gr Lee SWC is my favorite for both 45 Colt and 45 ACP. It provides a balance of lower lead usage than the 230 and lower powder charge than the 160. By the way, I've tried every trick I know to load those 160gr RNFP's with TrailBoss and get consistency and have failed miserably. I load the 200gr SWC primarily with TrailBoss but have also worked up loads with AutoComp.

Hickok
03-24-2014, 10:47 AM
Lee 452-255 RF

Bullshop
03-24-2014, 10:55 AM
The Lyman 454190 a 250gn boolit is the traditional design for the 45 Colt cartridge. Its always been a good accurate design. A good load for all guns with the possible exception of very early black powder frames is 5.8gn Trail Boss. Should run close to 800 fps depending on barrel length. This has become my standard load for my guns in 45 Colt.

Larry Gibson
03-24-2014, 11:01 AM
100404I have 2 Uberti revolvers and also use them for all kinds of shooting but hunting (big game). I find them to be excellent SAA revolvers. I went away from the heavier 250 - 260 gr bullets because I found no need to throw that much lead down range per shot with the shooting I do. I mostly use the Lee 452-200-RF because it is a "cowboy" bullet, shoots extremely well and feeds through my M73 rifle smoothly. In the revolvers I also use 185 - 205 gr SWCs with equal success particularly for small game and have regulated the sights to this weight of bullets. I use Bullseye with these loads and push them at 950 +/- fps in the revolvers (1150 - 1200 fps in the rifle). VV N310, N320 and N32C (Tin Star) are also excellent for use with these lighter cast bullets in the 45 Colt cartridge and may be easier for you to get over there.

Larry Gibson

100403

DougGuy
03-24-2014, 11:24 AM
The 1873 Cattleman is an excellent reproduction of the 140yr old Colt Single Action revolver, if you don't push this revolver to it's limit, it will be more fun to shoot and it will last longer. Some of the loads given are less than full power loads which would be good to shoot in the Uberti. Not that they cannot take maximum loads, they just last longer if maximum loads are used sparingly.

The .45 Colt is a great cartridge, it is my favorite handgun cartridge and my favorite to reload for. I use Ruger SA revolvers for hunting, these can take all the full power loads your hand can handle. If in your experience you want to go with more power in the .45 Colt loadings, find a Ruger Blackhawk or original Vaquero to use for these full power loads, and enjoy the Uberti 1873 Cattleman as it was intended to be, as a cowboy gun.

GLL
03-24-2014, 11:43 AM
I agree with Bullshop !
Try the classic IDEAL / LYMAN 454190.

http://www.fototime.com/720B35FD551CEF8/orig.jpg

Jerry

M-Tecs
03-24-2014, 12:14 PM
LYMAN 454190 with 8 grains of Unique is one of my favorites but in fixed sight guns bullet weight and load effects point of impact so I pick whatever gives me the best elevation. If the POI is low you can file the front sight. If the POI is high you can get some regulation with load development.

Korporal
03-24-2014, 05:02 PM
Thanks a lot. Many good pointers here I'm sure.;-) I just have bought a used 452-255-RF 6 cavity mold.
These are the American powder types I have access to in addition to our Nordic powdertypes. http://www.jaktdepotet.no/display.aspx?menuid=271

Im am lucky to have an endless supply of factory grade alloy! The alloy is containing 0,10%copper 2% antimony ans 97,90% lead.
I have another thread going about the alloy: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?235227-Will-this-alloy-do

runfiverun
03-24-2014, 05:21 PM
that 454190 is a pretty darn close copy of the original 45 colt boolit.
they put a slight roll crimp on the boolit just above the top lube groove..
if you want a semi-wad cutter the lyman 454424 is a good one.
and the lyman 452664 is my favorite all time 45 colt boolit it works in every 45 I have [45 acp and my lever-guns too] it pours out in the 250-255 range.
the lee mentioned above is a fairly close copy of the 452664.

Walter Laich
03-24-2014, 07:36 PM
Even though you already have a mold down the road give the 200 RNFP from Lee a try.
I found the lighter recoil was welcome

stephenj
03-24-2014, 08:02 PM
I use the 452 - 255 rf in my cattleman .
I like it shoots great and is not picky as to powders and loads .
Differant loads may not shoot quite to the sights but group sizes dont change.

One of the best revolver investments i ever made .. have shot between 12-15 thousand rounds with nary a problem ... and at the time was cheap... $250 brand new

Trelan
03-24-2014, 09:21 PM
I like the Lee TL-200-swc in mine.

Korporal
03-25-2014, 02:34 AM
Hmmm... Much to chose from here guys, thanks a lot :-) I think I'll start with the mold I have got a hold on. But this makes a fine list to go to later for other alternatives!
I guess I need 3 types of loads for this gun. One soft load for kids, wife and ppl even greener than me ;-) I like some recoil so I have to have one that pleasures my need for pain ;-)
The last is going to be the everyday range load with accuracy and a little bitt kick to it.

I can se that some of the boolits comes without crimping grooves in them. What kind of crimp is used on those boolits? I can imagine that boolits without crimping grooves will acquire dead on accurate case lengths if you crimp with the seating die. I can see that a roller crimp is recommended. I'm not sure how the roller crimp works?
I was planning to use a Lee factory crimp die, at least on the boolits without crimp grooves, preferably on all boolits. Since the die is actuated by the case holder it eliminates the need for equal case lengths to a certain degree, doesn't it? I hate trimming brass!
I'm only familiar with the lee factory crimp and the crimp made by the seating die. Maybe that is what you call rollecrimp.

Korporal

Edit: What is the ring that shows about 1/3 from the top down on the brass?
Is the Cattleman picky on the types of primers?

Wayne Smith
03-25-2014, 10:20 AM
Boolits without crimp grooves were designed for BP shooting. The boolit rests on the full case of powder and cannot slide back.

Foto Joe
03-25-2014, 10:35 AM
The Lee Factory Crimp Die is fine for what you're doing. You may get some responses stating that it swages boolits and is all around a bad idea but I personally use Lee FCD's on all calibers except 44 Special (I've never bought the die). Simply set up your boolit seating die to do just that and only that, then use the FCD to do the crimping.

Regarding brass trimming, I recently trimmed all my 45 Colt brass just for grins and giggles. It's typically not necessary to trim 45 Colt brass unless the stuff gets so long that you can no longer chamber it. What usually happens is that the brass fails long before it gets too long although I've been trying to wear out 45 Colt brass for years without success. I only trimmed mine because I had to do 44-40 and I couldn't leave well enough alone with the 45 brass.

The little ring that you're seeing on some brass doesn't mean much if anything to you the reloader. It was put there by the original manufacturer for their own reasons (I think that it's there to prevent set-back but I could be very wrong). Since you will be reloading just about any projectile except what the original manufacturer used it's unlikely that the little ring will mean much to you. As far as primers go the most important thing to remember about the Large Pistol Primers that you buy is that the must go "BANG!!! Oh, and they shouldn't fall out after seating them either:oops:, other than that use whatever you find. A few months ago I found some RWS LPP's in an old gunshop that had a promotional flyer inside the box that expired Dec. 31, 1968. So far I've used 3,000 of them and had only one failure to go bang and that was last weekend on a 44-40 round, no amount of hitting that thing with the hammer of a SAA would make it go off so I pulled the boolit yesterday and threw the brass in the tumbler with the rest.

Don't over-think 45 Colt too much, it's an extremely versatile cartridge that will push just about any boolit down the barrel. Keep your loads mild and the gun will last for generations.

Korporal
03-25-2014, 03:35 PM
Well I tend to over-think:-) The Norwegian gun laws has given me a long time to prepare for this "project".:-( We have to be a member of a pistol club and document at least 10 show-ups over a period of at least six moths (borrow gun from the club) before we can apply for our own gun... I just cant wait! And while I wait I enjoy buying heaps of equipment I need,And don't need.
I have so many questions to ask and I'm just throwing them out. You guys just answer as many as you like. I appreciate all help very much:bigsmyl2:
Here we go:

- When your making testloads, how big increments between the different loads do you use? 0.2grs? 0.3grs?
In my rifles I use 0.5grs

- I'm planning to tune my Cattleman when I get it. As I have understood, that is almost always necessary.
What spring set should I use?

- When the gun is tuned it probably need softer primers to go BANG more than once in a while. Witch kind?

- At the Hodgdon webpage I have found data for the 250grs Pb bullet with the Hodgdon Universal powder,
witch I can get I Norway. Only at the web store, on the picture of the box it says Universal
Caly technology. And clay is also a individual powder witch is quite a bit faster. Is this the same
powder?

- How do you shoot to test accuracy on your loads? Some kind of sandbag as steady hold?

- What type of die set would you recommend?

- Does the powder funnel in a Dillon 550 bell out the case mouth?

- How many times in average does the cases hold(moderate loads) @ Foto Joe: how many times do you
think your cases have been reloaded?

- What kind of case manufacturer do you recommend? Sadly it looks like my favorite case manufacturer
(Lapua) doesn't make cases in 45LC.

- What kind of grouping are you guys happy with on ca. 22 yards distance with guns like the Cattleman in
45LC?

- What does swaged means?

Well this is the ones I can come up with now.:razz:

runfiverun
03-25-2014, 09:15 PM
universal clays and clays are different powders.
the clays is faster like red-dot and the universal is closer to unique.
either one does well in the 45 colt, I'd pick the universal though it's a bit more versatile.

swaged means a booit that is not cast or poured it is a chunk of lead that is formed under pressure into the shape of a boolit [or bullet if it's copper wrapped]

if you lighten the springs in the gun you'll want federal LP standard primers.

just about any name brand case you can get will do just fine in the 45 colt [I prefer star-line]
light to medium loads will yield a loooong case life.
the cattleman [airc] is regulated to 14-k or so loads, that places such a small amount of stress on the brass that resizing and shooting will wear them more than the pressure.
I wouldn't be surprised to see you get 20 loadings from a case, provided your sizer doesn't squeeze them too much, or the chambers aren't too oversized.

the Dillon powder drop does flair the case mouth on the pistol sets, it does not on the rifle sets.

when making steps in revolvers i'll use a half grain .5 with the slower powders, with something like clays .2 is enough to show you a change. [it doesn't have a lot of "room" pressure wise for upping the load]
I think of it as pressure steps not velocity steps.

M-Tecs
03-25-2014, 09:17 PM
Reply in bold


Well I tend to over-think:-) The Norwegian gun laws has given me a long time to prepare for this "project".:-( We have to be a member of a pistol club and document at least 10 show-ups over a period of at least six moths (borrow gun from the club) before we can apply for our own gun... I just cant wait! And while I wait I enjoy buying heaps of equipment I need,And don't need.
I have so many questions to ask and I'm just throwing them out. You guys just answer as many as you like. I appreciate all help very much:bigsmyl2:
Here we go:

- When your making testloads, how big increments between the different loads do you use? 0.2grs? 0.3grs?
In my rifles I use 0.5grs

- I'm planning to tune my Cattleman when I get it. As I have understood, that is almost always necessary.
What spring set should I use? Wolff http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=3&mID=1&dID=96

When the gun is tuned it probably need softer primers to go BANG more than once in a while. Witch kind? Federal are the most sensitive

- At the Hodgdon webpage I have found data for the 250grs Pb bullet with the Hodgdon Universal powder,
witch I can get I Norway. Only at the web store, on the picture of the box it says Universal
Caly technology. And clay is also a individual powder witch is quite a bit faster. Is this the same
powder?

- How do you shoot to test accuracy on your loads? Some kind of sandbag as steady hold? http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pistol+rest&id=25084B7AC684FBA0C2238FECC80F8A57BEBE8B52&FORM=IQFRBA
- What type of die set would you recommend? RCBS Cowboy

- Does the powder funnel in a Dillon 550 bell out the case mouth? Yes

- How many times in average does the cases hold(moderate loads) @ Foto Joe: how many times do you
think your cases have been reloaded? I have cases fired with 8 grains Unique and Lyman 454190 that have over 40 loadings

- What kind of case manufacturer do you recommend? Sadly it looks like my favorite case manufacturer
(Lapua) doesn't make cases in 45LC. I have had good luck with Winchester, Remington and Starline. Starline is my favorite

- What kind of grouping are you guys happy with on ca. 22 yards distance with guns like the Cattleman in
45LC? 2 inches or under at 25 yards

- What does swaged means? pressure formed - swaged bullets are bullets manufactured by swaging room temperature metals into a die to form it into the shape of a bullet

Well this is the ones I can come up with now.:razz:

geargnasher
03-25-2014, 09:57 PM
Well I tend to over-think:-) The Norwegian gun laws has given me a long time to prepare for this "project".:-( We have to be a member of a pistol club and document at least 10 show-ups over a period of at least six moths (borrow gun from the club) before we can apply for our own gun... I just cant wait! And while I wait I enjoy buying heaps of equipment I need,And don't need.
I have so many questions to ask and I'm just throwing them out. You guys just answer as many as you like. I appreciate all help very much:bigsmyl2:
Here we go:

- When your making testloads, how big increments between the different loads do you use? 0.2grs? 0.3grs?
In my rifles I use 0.5grs Depends. If the loads are in the 3-5 grain range, I'm likely to use smaller increments. If it's 7-10, likely half-grain until near the top, if I go that far.

- I'm planning to tune my Cattleman when I get it. As I have understood, that is almost always necessary.
What spring set should I use? I put all Wolf springs (from Brownell's) in mine, much improvement. The factory cylinder bolt spring has too much power when compressed and not enough when the bolt is fully home, which results in bad peening of the cylinder slots from the hard 'snap' of the bolt against the cylinder. The Wolf wire spring conversion applies more consistent tension to the bolt and trigger through the whole range of travel.

- When the gun is tuned it probably need softer primers to go BANG more than once in a while. Witch kind? I never had that problem. Fixing the trigger spring probably has more effect on trigger pull than the mainspring or sear/hammer work.

- At the Hodgdon webpage I have found data for the 250grs Pb bullet with the Hodgdon Universal powder,
witch I can get I Norway. Only at the web store, on the picture of the box it says Universal
Caly technology. And clay is also a individual powder witch is quite a bit faster. Is this the same
powder? "Universal Clay Technology" applies to all three of the Hodgdon "Clays" varieties. Universal Clays is Universal Clays, plain "Clays" is the fast stuff and "International Clays" is still a different creature. Personally, I have completely switched to Universal Clays because it burns the most clean and shoots to the sights in most of my Colt clones and Rugers with 255-grain boolits. I load just under published maximums in the Lyman book for the 454190.

- How do you shoot to test accuracy on your loads? Some kind of sandbag as steady hold? Sandbag under wrists, elbows on towel. Verify point of impact with two-handed, standing hold. Everyone has their own favorite way.

- What type of die set would you recommend? RCBS Cowboy or Hornady. I DO NOT recommend a carbide sizing die for this caliber because it works the tapered case's base too much. Use case lube and steel dies.

- Does the powder funnel in a Dillon 550 bell out the case mouth? Yes, and it is one of the better expanders for the .45 Colt as well.

- How many times in average does the cases hold(moderate loads) @ Foto Joe: how many times do you
think your cases have been reloaded? If you use steel dies, trim every 5-6 reloads, and don't crimp them too hard, a dozen or more reloads can be expected.

- What kind of case manufacturer do you recommend? Sadly it looks like my favorite case manufacturer
(Lapua) doesn't make cases in 45LC. STARLINE. PERIOD.

- What kind of grouping are you guys happy with on ca. 22 yards distance with guns like the Cattleman in
45LC? 1.5", from a good rest.

- What does swaged means? Formed to final shape under high pressure out of crude shapes.

Well this is the ones I can come up with now.:razz:

Gear.

GLL
03-26-2014, 11:04 AM
Here is the old 45 2.1 454190 design with the crimp groove:
This was run by WARF as a LEE 6-cavity Group Buy.

http://www.fototime.com/0F08FE412A9E849/standard.jpg

It is a great bullet even though LEE cut it pretty fat ! It works well in my S&W 25-5s with the oversize chambers !

Jerry

dondiego
03-26-2014, 01:25 PM
I believe that the "swaging" he was referring to was in reference to the Lee Factory Crimp Die as it applies to the fact that this die has on occasion swages down the boolet during crimping of the cartridge.

Korporal - Your English is way better than my Norwegian. No need to apologize!

Don