Are you a fan of the M-die?

[fatelvis]

I noticed a few of my cartridges' brass were "post-sizing" the boolit after seating. I'm looking at expanding the necks to provide about .001" tension instead of the .004" or more tension that is presently on the boolits. Do the M-dies work well, or do you prefer a different die or tecnique? Thanks-

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I use an "M" die on every case I load. It would be very difficult to load cast bullets without them.

[williamwaco]

I use the M die a lot.

Your problem can be caused by seating cast bullets in cases that were expanded for jacketed bullets.

I am becoming a big fan of the RCBS Cowboy Dies. They they come with two different expander plugs - "large and small"

OR, it can also be caused by your crimp die.

[JeffinNZ]

I made one for my .223 Rem and it makes a huge difference. Use a .32 ACP expander for my .30-30 and .303 loads.

[Ed_Shot]

The Lyman M die is the way to go for cast or j-word IMHO.

[geargnasher]

I personally can't stand Lyman's two-step design, it wreaks havoc with boolit tension and crimp and is rarely the correct size for cast. However, the next larger size can be purchased and a drill press, file, and sandpaper can be used to modify them to perfection. Or, one can buy the little-known RCBS cast bullet expander die body and the individual expander spuds which have an ever-so-slight taper to them and a fantastic belling shank.

In any event, SOME sort of neck expanding die with a belling shank is necessary for best results loading cast.

Gear

[grouch]

The M die certainly has its' place - soft, plain base cast bullets for sure, possibly some application with soft gas check bullets. I can't speak to pistol cartridges. If the cast bullets aren't fairly soft and too far over size, you can usually do o.k. by carefully chamfering your brass which you should do anyway. Another workable solution is the collet die. you can slack it off slightly to reduce neck tension. I really don't like flaring my case necks.
Grouch

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

there are many way's to get the case neck sized properly.
I had Buckshot make a couple CUSTOM powder through expander inserts, one for 9mm and one for 40S&W.

On some other calibers, I use the Lee Universal "Flaring" die (Lee calls it a case expander...but it's a case mouth "Flaring" die with the plugs they provide), but I buy a expander plugs from Track Of The Wolf, and modify them as needed...for proper neck expansion.

http://leeprecision.com/universal-case-expanding-die.html

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/1221/1

[Hickok]

I use M dies on all my cast boolit reloads.

[leadman]

The M die works very well for me. There are a couple of "steps" on the spud with the one on the lower part of the spud expanding the entire neck most times so the brass does not size down the boolit. The first step up usually gives enough of an additional neck expansion to provide a "shelf" to set the boolit on and it provides a way to start the boolit straight. The top step is not used most of the time but I do use it on several of my different brass cases for guns that have a very oversized bore.
There are several lengths of die bodies but once you have the one you need the spuds can be purchased from Lyman separately to save some money.
I have a little hobby lathe and have made some case neck expanders patterned after the Lyman spuds for the Lee Universal Flaring tool. These could be made in a drill press by one with some patience.

[geargnasher]

The seating die's job is to put the boolit in the case neck straight. Sadly, most of them don't.

5/8"-18 bolts also fit the Lee dies and can be turned to make expanding mandrels.

Gear

[fatelvis]

5/8"-18 bolts also fit the Lee dies and can be turned to make expanding mandrels.

Gear
Wow, that is a good idea! I love this place!

[popper]

I use M die for everything but getting the right size is sometimes a chore. If you use a drill press to 'reduce' them, have fun. I had a friend at a shop turn mine down - with a carbide cutter, 3 passes! I have pulled all the decap/expander plus from my sizers die.

[wmitty]

Never used an M-die; I use a .30 cal collet type bullet puller to hold tapered pieces of round stock to gently open the case mouths until the boolit can be seated w/o shaving lead. I believe I have several stepped expanders from some Lyman 310 dies which I used a long way back, but the step they left in the case mouth did not make sense to me. The Lee collet dies allow varying the neck tension on a case, and for cast boolits, this does make sense...

[Artful]

I have several M dies - they are good kit in my book

[alamogunr]

I've got a few "M" dies for my .30 cal. rifles. I haven't had them long enough to be proficient with them and hesitate to modify any of the mandrels or have different size mandrels machined until I know more about them. I don't use them in my handgun reloading.

I wasted a lot of time resetting them after changing them so they would fit back in the box they come in. I made a rack that holds my Lee sizing dies and, of course it fits the M dies also. Use the boxes for other things.

[Grendl]

Best thing for reloading cast boolits , in my not so humble opinion, but there are endless ways to skin cats or other vermin😉

[cbrick]

Or, one can buy the little-known RCBS cast bullet expander die body and the individual expander spuds which have an ever-so-slight taper to them and a fantastic belling shank. Gear

Bingo!

I don't use the factory expander buttons in any of my dies. I have & use many "M" dies simply because I have them in most calibers.

The past several years I have been replacing the "M" dies with the IMHO the far superior RCBS expanding/belling dies. Also over the past few years I have been using the RCBS Cowboy dies with a similar expander/belling button in straight wall pistol cartridges.

Rick

[Elkins45]

The first useful non-practice object I made when I learned how to use my metal lathe was a neck expander for 35 caliber rifle. Now I have a whole set in every caliber I shoot cast in.

Here's the one I made for loading 300 blackout in the Lee Pro 1000. Yes, the expander plug is just turned from 1/2" threaded rod.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/IMG_0448.jpg

[John Boy]

Are you a fan of the M-die?
No!
I'm a big fan of the Lee Expansion Die and the plugs available at Track of the Wolf ...
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/1221/1

I buy a handful of plugs and cut them to size, if needed, for any caliber that I shoot ... 25-20 up to 50-70, plus metric Schuetzen rifle calibers.

Learned years ago, they are faster to use than the M-Die - just drop the correct plug in the Lee die for the case expansion I need including custom sizes I trim on the lathe. Plus being a BPCR shooter the plugs in the die are excellent compression dies. And might add a box of plugs is one heck of lot cheaper than a drawer full of M- Dies ... especially casting bullets with over 150 molds for the calibers I shoot.

For users of the M-Dies, tell me your experiences and wait time for Lyman to cut you a custom size M-Die?

[geargnasher]

Wow, that is a good idea! I love this place!

Thanks. I actually use cut-offs from 30/30 spring brake chamber rods generated where I work. We have a small pile of 4-7"-long scraps, basically all-thread rod that is finished on one end, that replace the aluminum top plugs perfectly. Most 3" bolts are all-thread too, just cut off the head and you have enough to make the spud and fit the die. All you have to do is turn down the end to the length, diameter, and belling taper you desire. A standard SAE nut locks them in place at the top of the die. That reminds me, I need to hit up a friend of mine who has a lathe to make some more for me.....

Gear

[MT Gianni]

An M die user her but only for the first stage, rarely to the second bump. It is great for 22 cal-7mm which I believe the lee is terrible at sizing.

[dromia]

I wouldn't be without the Lyman two step design, however most of the expanders are custom made as the off the shelf Lyman expanders are rarely the right size for my needs and I now get them made to fit the Lee universal case expander body, saves threading them to fit the Lyman dies.

I also have a 1-2 degree taper put on the expander after the second step to just gently flare the case mouth after the second step, I like the parallel sided second step as it helps me seat the boolit square in the case for putting into the seating die.

[dudel]

I only use them for 22 Hornet where the case is pretty fragile (and brass hard to come by). I haven't found the need for it in other calibers.

[USSR]

I use them for all my cast bullet loads. The one for the .30 Carbine I have is used for both .30 Carbine and .30-06. Very versatile.

Don

[DLCTEX]

The seating die's job is to put the boolit in the case neck straight. Sadly, most of them don't.

5/8"-18 bolts also fit the Lee dies and can be turned to make expanding mandrels.

Gear

Good idea Gear, thanks.

[DLCTEX]

I have a Lyman die with changeable spuds for all pistol cartridges that I load for except for the 480 Ruger. I also have the M die with a 303 spud for loading 30-30. For 22 calibers I have Lee collet sizers and size only enough to grip the boolit and use the Lee expander die for flare. I needed to get M die for 45-70, but now will go with making one as per Gear's suggestion.

[frankenfab]

I personally can't stand Lyman's two-step design, it wreaks havoc with boolit tension and crimp and is rarely the correct size for cast. However, the next larger size can be purchased and a drill press, file, and sandpaper can be used to modify them to perfection. Or, one can buy the little-known RCBS cast bullet expander die body and the individual expander spuds which have an ever-so-slight taper to them and a fantastic belling shank.

In any event, SOME sort of neck expanding die with a belling shank is necessary for best results loading cast.

Gear


Bingo!

I don't use the factory expander buttons in any of my dies. I have & use many "M" dies simply because I have them in most calibers.

The past several years I have been replacing the "M" dies with the IMHO the far superior RCBS expanding/belling dies. Also over the past few years I have been using the RCBS Cowboy dies with a similar expander/belling button in straight wall pistol cartridges.

Rick


Is this what you guys are talking about?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/735762/rcbs-neck-expander-die-224?cm_vc=S014

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/770374/rcbs-neck-expander-plug-224?cm_vc=S014

[geargnasher]

The description indicates a "decapping unit" which makes me think no, but the link to the spud is correct. I pieced all mine together with parts from three different outfits to get what I needed, since various ones are oos perpetually. I bought universal bodies, rods, lock nuts, and individual spuds.

Midsouth used to sell the spuds for $5 less than Midway, not sure if they still do.

A hint: I was instructed to "float" the expander, but have had much better luck threading it tight against the top of the inside of the die and snugging the locknut to pull out the slack.

The cat's pajamas would be a 100% custom sliding-body expander just like the Forster and Hornady straight-line seater dies. To make it perfect, a sized and true-checked case with about five wraps of masking tape around the neck would be used in conjunction with epoxy putty to form-fit the inside of the sliding body so that the pre-aligned case would be forced onto the expander mandrel in a straight and concentric fashion.

Gear

[JimP.]

rcbs cowboy dies for my 45-70.....in my 500 S&W mag, the expander in the die set works very well for cast bullets.....JimP.

[cbrick]

I agree with Gear, I don't think that's correct or Midway listed it incorrectly. It shouldn't have a decapping pin.

Here is the plug (for 224) RCBS Neck Expander Plug 224 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/770374/rcbs-neck-expander-plug-224?cm_vc=S014)

Here is the correct die body RCBS Neck Expander Body (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/735718/rcbs-neck-expander-body)

These die bodies should come in different lengths for different calibers. At least I have a couple of different ones.

Rick

[brotherdarrell]

I agree with Gear, I don't think that's correct or Midway listed it incorrectly. It shouldn't have a decapping pin.

Here is the plug (for 224) RCBS Neck Expander Plug 224 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/770374/rcbs-neck-expander-plug-224?cm_vc=S014)

Here is the correct die body RCBS Neck Expander Body (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/735718/rcbs-neck-expander-body)

These die bodies should come in different lengths for different calibers. At least I have a couple of different ones.

Rick

Is that plug the correct size for cast in the .225"-.226" range?

THanks

Darrell

[geargnasher]

I "Southern Engineered" one using a rusty, garage-sale RCBS .44 Magnum sizing die from the vintage that had the small threaded hole in the top. IIRC that one is still what I use for .30-30 Winchester. Use your imagination, this stuff is like Legos.

Oh, and like CBRick, I use some of the RCBS pistol-caliber expanders for other things, like the .35 Remington. I also used a Pacific .308 Win seater die with just the RCBS rod and spud for .308 neck expansion, just swapped out the threaded seater stem.

Gear

[frankenfab]

Thanks guys.

I have one M-die, but I think I will give the RCBS unit a try.

[geargnasher]

Is that plug the correct size for cast in the .225"-.226" range?

THanks

Darrell

Yes. Those .223 necks are hard and spring back a lot. If the spud is too big you can always chuck the spud in a drill and sand it down a little.

Gear

[blikseme300]

I personally can't stand Lyman's two-step design, it wreaks havoc with boolit tension and crimp and is rarely the correct size for cast. However, the next larger size can be purchased and a drill press, file, and sandpaper can be used to modify them to perfection. Or, one can buy the little-known RCBS cast bullet expander die body and the individual expander spuds which have an ever-so-slight taper to them and a fantastic belling shank.

In any event, SOME sort of neck expanding die with a belling shank is necessary for best results loading cast.

Gear

Gear, I had never before heard of the RCBS unit but I had bad experiences with the M-die two-step and came up with a tool that fits your description of the RCBS expander. I start by using the Lee universal expander and machine an insert for the rifle cartridge as required which includes a belling portion. Boolits are seated using a Hornady new dimension seater and crimp is provided by a Lee FCD. Boolits are seated straight with no shaving and the FCD can be set to provide a light or aggressive crimp.

[brotherdarrell]

Yes. Those .223 necks are hard and spring back a lot. If the spud is too big you can always chuck the spud in a drill and sand it down a little.

Gear

Thank you sir. I am getting ready to jump in with both feet on expanders and have been trying to decide between Lyman or RCBS. I have hit a wall with my .223 and need to try something different than what I am doing now.

Darrell

[geargnasher]

That "wall" is probably runout experienced about three milliseconds after the primer is struck, or from using a small-base die to size the brass.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Gear, I had never before heard of the RCBS unit but I had bad experiences with the M-die two-step and came up with a tool that fits your description of the RCBS expander. I start by using the Lee universal expander and machine an insert for the rifle cartridge as required which includes a belling portion. Boolits are seated using a Hornady new dimension seater and crimp is provided by a Lee FCD. Boolits are seated straight with no shaving and the FCD can be set to provide a light or aggressive crimp.

That's a great way to load ammunition. Hone your sizing die neck so it does the minimum required and you'll be making even more concentric ammo.

Gear

[blikseme300]

That's a great way to load ammunition. Hone your sizing die neck so it does the minimum required and you'll be making even more concentric ammo.

Gear

Gear, I have been considering this as I have modified replacement Hornady elliptical expander balls to create larger diameter case mouths. I realize that concentricity is probably compromised so will look into honing the sizing dies to size only what is needed. I don't yet have any bench rest rifles as I have a passion for the Marlin 336 rifles. Casting and loading rifles is still relatively new to me but since I changed pace from the volume pistol shooting the rifles have my almost undivided attention. Noting like an extended range day where volume of shots don't matter.

[geargnasher]

The Marlin 336 IS a benchrest rifle if you feed it what it likes and the plethora of barrel appendages aren't interfering with the harmonics in a negative way. Hone the neck and adjust to partial-size the case body just enough to chamber easily. There should be slight resistance to closing the lever on a sized case. Try not to size the very base of the case neck at all, leave it alone to pilot the neck in the chamber. FL size in a standard die for the first go and turn your necks to remove high spots and size your boolits to keep total loaded neck clearance under a thousandth. If your cases are sloppy in the chamber after the first FL sizing, use a thin o-ring in front of the rim (or if that is too much, a strip of pinstriping tape around the case head will suffice) to center the rear of the case in the chamber for the first firing after case prep. Uniforming primer pocket depth with a Redding tool can also yield improvements in ignition consistency that will show up at longer ranges. The rest is achieved through boolit fit, alloy selection, and load development.

Gear

[cbrick]

Uniforming primer pocket depth with a Redding tool can also yield improvements in ignition consistency that will show up at longer ranges. Gear

I highly recommend the Sinclair primer pocket uniforming tools and not just on virgin brass, use after each firing to both clean and uniform. Impossible to cut the pocket too deep and I've been trying for years to dull one of these, thousands of primer pockets cut and it still cuts like new. They're available with a handle or with a power attachment, also highly recommended.

Rick

[btroj]

Rick, I use my cordless drill with the Sinclair pocket reamers. They are a great tool.

[geargnasher]

Rick, you answered my immediate question which was how long do the Sinclair tools last when used to clean primer grit. I do it by hand with the Redding because a lot of .30-30 brass has shallow pockets and don't want to dull my tool. One day I will probably have to go powered and duplicate your method.

Gear

[btroj]

Gear, I use one for 223 cases. Firing about 3 K rounds a year for a few years shooting Highpower leads to lots of primer pocket cleaning. Tool still cuts like new. I think they are made from solid carbide and short of running them backwards or dropping them I'm not sure how to dull one.

On another note, how hard would it be to get mandrel a for the Sinclair expander die made to expand spaces necks for cast bullets? With a lathe it wouldn't be tough at all.

[cbrick]

Rick, I use my cordless drill with the Sinclair pocket reamers. They are a great tool.

I've got a great brass prep machine and made tool holders for the Sinclair primer pocket tools. A 100 round box in 10 minutes. Life is good! :mrgreen:

Rick

[btroj]

Stop bragging on that prep machine.

Just because it is most likely the single greatest prep device ever made doesn't mean you need to rub it in.

[geargnasher]

Show me pictures of the rabbits again, George.....

No, seriously, do, I want to pilfer the design! What thread did you post them in, was it the .30 XCB thread?

Gear

[HotGuns]

I don't even try to load cast boolits without an M die. I've made several that work great. I couldn't find one for the .50 Razorback so I made this one.
100368 100369

[cbrick]

Ever have a boolit with a gas check shank a tad large and the checks are a bear to get on?

The Lyman M die can be altered to perfectly size the checks so they slip right on.

100373 100374

In the picture on the right is an RCBS extended shell holder (no hole in the middle) milled flat on top and used as an anvil in the Rock Chucker. The assembled check sizer (right) is for 357 but I have made several for various calibers.

Rick

[geargnasher]

I had that problem, ONCE. I fired the mould designer AND the manufacturer permanently, traded the mould to a guy who can make his own tools to make gas checks of any thickness, and now only deal with competent folk. :-P

I'm a spoiled, rotten brat in this Golden Age of boolit casting, where talented men are for hire to ensure that I no longer have to make compromises. No check flaring, no nose bumping dies, no sizing down four thousandths, no Beagling, no resetting alignment pins, no mould lapping, NO BS. I also know a riflesmith who savvies what STRAIGHT is and how to order reamers that cut chambers to work with cast boolits. May all of these fine people live long and prosper.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Check out THIS gas check shank, Rick:

http://accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/detail/31-190X-D.png

Gear

[TXGunNut]

I like the concept of the M-die but few of my expanders are actually Lyman. As Gear mentioned RCBS has a similar body and one can order "replacement" inserts for a nominal fee, I learned that when I ordered an expander for my 30-30 after using the one that came with the Cowboy 32WS die set. Before I got my M-die I used the expander from an old RCBS 38-357 die set for my 35 Rem. The RCBS expanders work in the Lyman body, at least all mine do. The medium body length seems to meet all my needs from 32-20 to 45-90, but just barely. If Lyman and RCBS don't have the size or profile you want I've had good luck with custom sizers from Buffalo Arms. Don't worry about the "out of stock" message, all have been in my hands two weeks after ordering. I think a few members sell custom expanders for folks like me who can't make their own.

[cbrick]

Perhaps so Gear but I have about 75 molds and would have to sell over half of them, SAECO's are the worst. Much easier to grin and bear it and just make the checks fit.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Don't you wish we had what we have now 40 years ago?

Gear

[cbrick]

Don't you wish we had what we have now 40 years ago? Gear

No kiddin, even 20 years ago.

Rick

[btroj]

Gear, 40 years ago it wouldn't have done you any good! Now an old guy like Rick, yes.

We are in the good old days of bullet moulds. No doubt about that.

The only thing the last 40 years of garbage moulds has taught us is what does, and doesn't, work. Some times we learn as much from what doesn't work as we do what does.

[cbrick]

The molds weren't garbage. The biggest change is modern CNC and the folks that run them that have a solid knowledge of boolit molds. Many excellent molds from the past still in use, many older than some of the spring chickens around here. :mrgreen:

Rick

[btroj]

Ok, garbage may have been a bit harsh.

Another thing in our favor is the fact that we can get moulds today that cast the size WE want. No more getting what we get and living with it. Did Lyman get the 1600 fps number for micro groove because they used a bullet smaller than the rifle wanted but that fit what they decided a bullet should be sized to?

I think the knowledge base has grown too. We no longer see cast bullets as being for plinking or to save money. Cast can do what jacketed do in many cases.

Gear, we need to thank the old guy like Rick. Old Pops did much of the ground work for us youngsters. Think of the stories he could tell with you sittin on his knee......

[cbrick]

:hijack:

Your not nearly cute enough to sit on my knee. :mrgreen:

Guess I might be getting old though. My daughter told me last week that she is going to be a Grandma. :holysheep

Rick

[btroj]

My daughter isn't near old enough for that. Mine is only 20 but for her 21st birthday she wants to buy a GP100 so I must have done something right.

Hijack ended...

[Shiloh]

Yes. I also have oversize mandrels for neck sizing. .309 mandrel for .312 boolits.

Shiloh

[MBTcustom]

I used to be a fan of the M die. I liked the advantage it gave me of a concentric neck with better case tension which increased accuracy immediately.
Of course, I made my own.
However, I found that Dillon has the bull by the horns with their expanders which mimic the RCBS very closely. If the expander is made to give proper neck tension, the angled flare actually pilots the boolit straighter and more gently than the M die, so I modified all the pilots that I had made.

What I do now, is make a duplicate of the dicapping punch in the sizing die .
I found that .002" actual case neck tension is where I like it. This is hard to measure because there is springback on the boolit and on the mandrel but basically as a rule of thumb, I make the mandrel .0005 smaller than the actual boolit being seated (YMMV).

So basically, what I do is run all my brass through the sizing/decapping die as usual. Then I remove the decapping punch, and back the die up till I can just feel the neck kiss the inside of the sizing portion in the die, and back off 1/8 of a turn.
Then I screw in the replacement mandrel that has the removable expanding button into the die to the correct depth and run the brass through again. I push it in just deep enough that the GC will seat with light finger pressure in the neck with maybe .005 still above the neck.
For each caliber, I make four mandrels of various diameters in .001 steps so I can find the sweet spot for each alloy I might use. If I ever need a different size, it's a simple matter of putting a piece of 1/2" stock in the lathe and tapping it 10-32, then turning/stoning the precise diameter I desire all in one setup, then parting it off. The tip is rough, but the belt sander takes care of that and that portion of the mandrel never touches anything.
This gives me perfect concentricity on the fly and insures precision ammunition.

I have made this system for a friend here and he reports favorable results as well. "Cat's meow" I believe is the term he used.

The M die was darn close to perfect, but the RCBS/Dillon method, coupled with exact diameters is unbeatable.

The last step in the loading process is to seat the boolits, and they slide home very smoothly (not like the M die where you feel every driving band crashing into that step).
Then I remove the seating mandrel, and use the built in taper crimp to kiss the flare down to a parallel condition with the rest of the neck.

So far, I sure like it.

[Alan in Vermont]

5/8"-18 bolts also fit the Lee dies and can be turned to make expanding mandrels.

Gear

You might want to check that, the threaded shanks on my M expanders measures .56+", making it 9/16", not 5/8".

[John Allen]

I always use an M die with my straight wall catridges. I have to check out the lee expansion dies John Boy posted some about it that sounds interesting

[texassako]

I like the M dies, when they are the proper size. I especially have grown to like the Lyman Multiexpand, but not necessarily for the short pistol expanders it comes for. They are handy for some of my applications, but I discovered it is simple to make custom expanders for it. No threads for my mini lathe to choke on. Pic has the first one I ever made on the right to expand 7.35 Carcano for a .302" bullet. It has a taper at the top instead of Lyman's distinct step. Powder through as well and the measure screws into the top of the die.

100387

[fatelvis]

The Marlin 336 IS a benchrest rifle if you feed it what it likes and the plethora of barrel appendages aren't interfering with the harmonics in a negative way. Hone the neck and adjust to partial-size the case body just enough to chamber easily. There should be slight resistance to closing the lever on a sized case. Try not to size the very base of the case neck at all, leave it alone to pilot the neck in the chamber. FL size in a standard die for the first go and turn your necks to remove high spots and size your boolits to keep total loaded neck clearance under a thousandth.
I agree with your methods Gear. I use a Redding S-type NS die to only size 2/3 of the neck with a fairly loose bushing, and then use a body die to barely bump the shoulder. It seems to make the brass center better in the chamber.

[fatelvis]

I use .310" sized boolits in my #3 Krag, 30-06, and 30-30. I am now using the RCBS .310" expander (actually measures .309") for a little over .001"neck tension. Works great. I decided to go with the RCBS over the Lyman, after reading Venturino's article in the #4 Cast Bullet manual where he shows the diameter of the Lyman's M-die mandrel for 30 cal being .3065". Too much bullet pull for me. (Or it will size down the boolit).

[Old School Big Bore]

Reading through this I wondered when someone would mention powder-through. The concept of the M die is solid; the execution with Lyman deciding how long the shanks on my boolits should be is distressful. Back when I loaded everything on a single station press, I would juggle dies and expanders as some have stated above, but when I started loading on 450s I started moving toward having everything for one caliber in the same box and not having to hunt up expanders, etc. Then when I converted the 450s to 550s, I started wanting everything for each caliber on its own toolhead. Two more sets of dies and that will come to fruition, and when I find a lathe I can afford, and that fits my available shop space, I will be making my own through-powder custom-fit expanders and perhaps the powder/expander die bodies as well. Then if I decide I need a stop-step, I can locate it where I want for the specific boolit. I like the idea of having the top of the powder die internally threaded for a powder measure, as it frees you from being confined to the Dillon measure. I also intend to start using a single-station press to decap all brass prior to tumbling, and remove all the decappers from the sizing dies.

[geargnasher]

You might want to check that, the threaded shanks on my M expanders measures .56+", making it 9/16", not 5/8".

You might want to check what I wrote, which was LEE dies. All the Lee dies with the little aluminum adjuster plugs with the o-rings on them have 5/8" SAE fine thread (18 tpi) threads in the top.

Gear

[DLCTEX]

This thread got me to thinking about my 30 Cal. M die, so I went out to the reloading room and found it. The die box is labeled 31 long. The spud mics .3065. This would be .0045 under. 311 without spring back. This seems small to me. I was surprised to find a spud for 45 r (rifle) in the box. I had forgotten that I had ordered it with the die. It measures .4555, again seems small for .459-60 boolits. I have some testing to do.

[geargnasher]

I used to be a fan of the M die. .......
The last step in the loading process is to seat the boolits, and they slide home very smoothly (not like the M die where you feel every driving band crashing into that step).....


I seem I'm not the only one. The real fun is when you try to use a 31 spud with .311" boolits to get the neck opened up enough after resizing in a regular, FL die. The neck gets bulged off-center, then you fry the neck tension putting a .315" step at the mouth so your boolits sit nice and pretty in the mouths in the loading block, then you round off most of the driving bands on the side you want least to round them when seating across that sharp step in the neck, and finally you can't get the dadgum step ironed back out straight with the roll-crimp die. Combine that with a sloppy chamber neck that will tolerate the loaded case neck being .004" or more off-center from the case body, and you can't hit the target backer past 1800 fps. Be sure, if you do that (like most rifle casters do), to blame the fast twist of your rifle for your woes instead of your loading techniques.

Thank you for helping make it possible to eliminate the rifle part of the above doomed equation.

Gear

[btroj]

Ok Tim, I may need to send you an example of a Sinclair expander mandrel and see what you can make me for expanding case necks for cast bullet loading.

Pretty simple really, just a case of getting the size right and seeing what the cost will be.

[fatelvis]

I'm starting to think the RCBS is the better moustrap, for those of us who don't have the machinery to make our own expanders.

[MBTcustom]

Ok Tim, I may need to send you an example of a Sinclair expander mandrel and see what you can make me for expanding case necks for cast bullet loading.

Pretty simple really, just a case of getting the size right and seeing what the cost will be.

OK Brad, but only because you have a rifle in the shop that needs it. I do not want to go into the die making business.

[btroj]

:mrgreen:Come on Tim, you could make dies in your spare time

[JRR]

I'm another fan of the RCBS system. Die body plus expansion/flair spud. For example, I got a spud for the 8mm that measures .323". The standard de-capping/neck size measures .321". In 40 S&W the standard is .395". I got a sizer from them that measures .399". I phoned RCBS and the customer service guy understood what I wanted immediately. Had the parts in 4 days.

[brotherdarrell]

I gotta ask. My current settup for my 223 is a Lee FLS die with a de-capper form a 243 turned down to .225". This gives me a neck i.d. of .223", which seems to be working ok. My brass is not growing so I am not getting any stretchin of the neck, I think.

So, should I expect better results with an expander?

Darrell

[fatelvis]

I ordered the 30 cal mandrel from Lyman for $6.50. I tried it (.3065" dia) and the RCBS .310" (actually measures .3087") and prefer the RCBS hands down. Seating with the RCBS is smoother, and works the case mouth less.

[geargnasher]

The Lyman "31" is what you want if you like their style of die and want one for .30 caliber cast boolits. It's about .309".

Gear

[44man]

I will say NO to the "M" die for revolvers. Sure destruction of case tension. Not needed so much in a rifle since the rifling is close and retards the boolit. Yet an inline seater will keep a boolit straight. Since harder boolits are used in rifles why the "M" die?
I will never grace my bench with "M" dies. The Hornady expander is perfect for everything I load.
Most expanders are too long too. The boolit should expand the brass as it is seated. Dead soft boolits never shoot right anyway. If you expand for them you have zero case tension.
The worst accuracy i ever had with the .44 mag was from RCBS dies. The expander is wrong and so is an "M" expander, actually worse.

[44man]

Gear says it well. Guys just don't know how much damage they do to brass before even getting a boolit near the stuff. Brass is where accuracy starts and ends.

[cbrick]

Since harder boolits are used in rifles why the "M" die?

The boolit should expand the brass as it is seated.

Dead soft boolits never shoot right anyway.

If you expand for them you have zero case tension.

Whoa there Jim, there is four "statements" that tain't necessarily so and probably just plain incorrect.

Why would most rifle boolits necessarily be harder? Mine aren't. All of my rifle loads to 2,000 fps+ are air cooled CWW with 2% Sn - 12 BHN. Only my match revolver top end loads are hardened to 18 BHN, all other revolvers and handguns are 12 BHN.

Yes, the boolit will expand the brass but if properly expanded no damage to the boolit will occur. Improper or no expanding sized brass can size down the boolit unless your shooting diamonds. Not using the proper expander plug or any at all is a poor reason to shoot diamonds.

Please explain "dead soft" boolits. What is soft to one person can be something completely different to someone else. I have a 30 Carbine revolver that shoots very well and I use either air cooled WW with 2% Sn @ 12 BHN or 8 BHN SWW +2% Sn for HP's and both are PB. No leading and minute of ground squirrel to around 100 yards.

That you have expanded the brass certainly does not mean that you zero case tension, assuming the correct expander plug is used. Only if an expander plug that is too large will you have zero case tension.

Rick

[Buffalo Arms Co]

We sell expanders in custom diameters for less than $20 and have virtually unlimited options, most of the Creedmoor guys own a few.

[USSR]

Why would most rifle boolits necessarily be harder? Mine aren't.

Yes, the boolit will expand the brass but if properly expanded no damage to the boolit will occur. Improper or no expanding sized brass can size down the boolit unless your shooting diamonds. Not using the proper expander plug or any at all is a poor reason to shoot diamonds.

+1. I just received a size 31 expander plug from Lyman for use in my size 30 Type M die. Measures at .310", and I'm hoping for a .309" inside neck diameter with springback for use with my .3105" bullets. If not, I'll have someone turn it down a thousand. Oh, and since I use bushing dies, I will not be expanding my necks up much at all with my Type M die.

Don

[wch]

The Lyman M die is the way to go for cast or j-word IMHO.

Yep, the M dies make the job a lot easier.