Proper harness for hollow point boolits (without leading)

[ghh3rd]

I know that this is a tricky question -- finding the optimum hardness to allow a hollow point to open up without splintering into pieces... while not going so soft as to allow leading.

I have a feeling that some of the members here have a knack for this :-) and would appreciate any sharing.

By the way, I have a MiHec .44 mag mold with the hex hollow point pins.

Randy

[tomme boy]

16:1 lead to tin, 50/50 COWW: pure + 2% tin. You need the extra tin no matter what to help hold the lead together. It lets the lead flatten out put holds it together at the same time.

[hickfu]

16:1 lead to tin, 50/50 COWW: pure + 2% tin. You need the extra tin no matter what to help hold the lead together. It lets the lead flatten out put holds it together at the same time.

Would that be air cooled or water dropped? my air cooled 45acp boolits come out at 8bhn but I havent tried water quenching them yet.... It is a 50/50 mix but I think my tin is closer to 1 to 1 1/2% This is on a non HP mold.... I want to get a HP mold though

Doc

[ShooterAZ]

I have been using a 1/25 alloy. I mixed 95% tin/5% antimony solder with pure lead to get it. They hold together perfectly in the testing I did. I'm not sure if the tiny amount of antimony in the mix helps or not. They retain 100% weight while expanding to over 1" with the NOE 45 230 Large HP. Testing was done with wet phone books.

[USSR]

ghh3rd,

The trick to having a cast boolit driven at high velocity mushroom and not fracture is keeping the Sb content low and the Sn content high. And, the alloy content will depend upon the intended velocity. For my .45 Colt deer loads which use a Mihec .45-270SAA HP boolit at 1100fps, I like to use a 20/1 alloy with Sb kept to < 1%. For the .357 Magnum using a Mihec .359-640 boolit at perhaps 1300fps, I will bump up the Sb content to about 2%. Hope that helps.

Don

[MtGun44]

"while not going so soft as to allow leading"

Leading has little or nothing to do with hardness, once you are above
about 8 BHN, in my experience. I can shoot 8 BHN at full magnum
velocities with zero leading with proper fit, design and lube. This
is range lead, and I can get good expansion with a HP in .38 Spl
snubby with this. Most of my experience is with handguns, so at the
higher velocities of rifles (above 1700 or 1800 fps) it may be different.

Hardness is a significant issue getting HPs to expand and they tend to work over
a reasonably narrow range of velocities for a particular hardness, don't sweat
hardness for HPs. Now if you want expansion with soft points, you MIGHT
need to go down to pure lead for low velocities, and I cannot personally
verify below 8BHN range lead. I do know that you will detonate a .38 Spl
HP of 8 BHN at full .357 Mag velocities. Need a smaller cavity and stiffer
alloy.

Adjust your alloy for expansion, don't worry about leading due to being too soft,
this old wive's tale just won't die.

Bill

[44man]

I am with Bill. The hardest thing to find will be what works on game best without losing penetration. leading is not the issue.
Soft will have a limit if the boolit slumps or if the boolit skids the rifling of course so as long as you stay hard enough to prevent that, you will get no leading. What you don't want is explosive expansion in, say, deer, that might stop a .44 or .357. Be fun on varmints though.
I found better accuracy with 50-50 by oven hardening and they need a GC. Oven hardened will not affect expansion with these and they might fail to penetrate a deer. I have not tried 75-25 yet on deer but have blown a deer to mush with the BFR 45-70 and a 50-50 HP.
The .44 boolits I use are heavy, 310 gr and up, water dropped WW's, no HP and they kill so good I see no need to change. But other calibers really need some expansion, like the 45-70 and the .500 JRH, the .475 needs nothing at all, dropping 99% of my deer DRT with hard boolits.
There is nothing you can shoot into that will tell you more then the animal itself. I suggest you DON'T look for those half dollar size flat boolits.

[Forrest r]

With my limited experience with casting/shooting hp boolits I've found my results mirror these tests the american rifleman did 71 years ago back in 1953.

40 to 1 ='s 8bhn/800fps
20 to 1 ='s 10bhn/1000fps
10 to 1 ='s 12bhn/1200fps

http://http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44%20spl%20-%20may%201953%20american%20rifleman.pdf

So far my testing has ben limited to:

30cal:
Mihec ness hp
cramer #50 hp

9mm:
Mihec 124gr hp (round/penta)

38/357:
cramer #25a hp
358477 hp
358156 2x hp
mihec 359-640 hp (round/penta)
358439 hp

44spl/mag:
h&g #142 hp
429421 hp
mihec 503 clone hp (small round/ large round/penta)
mihec 432-640 hp (round/penta)
Have a thompson 431-244 mold that will get hollow pointed in a couple weeks.

45acp:
mihec mp-200 hp (round/penta)

I've also done limited testing (20,000+ bullets over 3 decades) with different alloys for the cores of the jacketed bullets I swage for the 38spl/357, 44spl/mag & 45acp.

Having the ability to hp (simple lyman pins or cramer style) molds allows me to test any hp bullet design or hp length/shape I want. Along with the ability to make my own gas check makers & plain base gas check makers to put gc's on any boolit I cast has taken my hp making/testing to the next level.

Two of my favorite boolits for 44's:
The h&g #142 200gr hp cast with 40 to 1 alloy/8bhn that I use in a 2 1/2" bbl'd bulldog & performs extremely well with full house loads of power pistol (8.6gr)/44spl load.
Any of the 240/250gr hp's (429421/503 clone/432640) cast with a 10 to 1 alloy/12bhn for either a 6" bbl'd 626 or a 10" contender with a mild load of universal clays (10.0gr)/44mag load.

As it's already been stated the alloy you use with hp's has more to do with the way the hp performs not bbl leading. I've always started out low with soft alloys & worked them up (harder) as I worked the speeds up. 90+% of my shooting is done with 8bhn to 10bhn alloy but 90+% of my pistol/hp boolit shooting is done with loads ranging from 850fps to 1100fps. I will use 10 to 1 or 9 to 1 alloy for better hp performance in the 1200fps/1400fps range after that I switch over to the heavier solid nosed boolits with the large meplats. Along with casting/swaging 16+ different hp's I also cast 7 different hb boolits & swage 2 different hb bullets and have 2 more hb molds on order from mihec. The hb molds do their best with 8bhn alloy.

Let us know how your tests go, the 44spl/mag is my favorite boolit/cartridge with the 45acp a close 2nd.

forrest r

[44man]

So much works unless you hunt. So much will fail when you hunt. But even a full perfect kill of a boolit on an animal can surprise you until you shoot more animals and see the first was a fluke.
When young I shot silly bullets/boolits for expansion in water, etc and said how great it was. The sucker would mash a deer. How wrong I was.
I have a LOT of deer kills and seen just how wrong I was. My gun hunting is only with revolvers for a long time. Tons of deer. I see it and the truth.
Now I read it all the time here without any experience or just book reading. Some only kill a deer in a lifetime but spout how good the boolit worked--final word to make all others believe. Darn sure a HP can work but that might have been one kill.
Testing is a real pile of poor information unless it comes from the field with actual kills. You can stick water jug and soaked paper stuff where the sun don't shine. I wish I could cuss here!

[Larry Gibson]

With my limited experience with casting/shooting hp boolits I've found my results mirror these tests the american rifleman did 71 years ago back in 1953.

40 to 1 ='s 8bhn/800fps
20 to 1 ='s 10bhn/1000fps
10 to 1 ='s 12bhn/1200fps

That works out very well with PB's cast bullets. With GC'd cast bullets out of revolvers with 6"+ barrels I've found the following to be a good rule of thumb;

40-1 = 1000 fps
20-1 = 1300 fps
16-1 = 1500 fps

I have to agree with 44man on having little use for water jug expansion tests I disagree on the soaked paper. I've found sopping wet newsprint to be an excellent expansion test medium IF a bullet(s) of known performance on the intended game are shot into the same medium during the same test for comparative purposes. It is only if you compare the expansion of the test bullet to a known quantity (the bullet that works) that you can make a judgment on the merits of the test bullet. Thus, simply shooting the test bullet into some sort of expansion media tells you nothing on how it will perform in game......just as 44man suggests.

Larry Gibson

[ghh3rd]

Thanks for sharing all of this info!


With my limited experience with casting/shooting hp boolits I've found my results mirror these tests the american rifleman did 71 years ago back in 1953.

By the way Larry, I am only going on 61 years of age (born in 1953). I was shocked when I read your post and realized that I was 71! Had to get the calculator out... ;)