I thought i had the leading issue licked...

[DrCaveman]

Til I decided to bring my new-fangled chore-boy wrapped brushes out shooting with me.


Since the end of waterfowl season here, ive decided to try to 'step it up' a few notches with my handgun accuracy and general knowledge of what is actually going on in my guns and within my casting and loading process.

First thing i realized (at the loading bench) was that i had some cylinder throat fit issues with several of my revolvers. Boolits too big to pass through cylinder with anything resembling a hand push. A mallet may have driven them through, but i felt that to be potentially bad for crane/timing/whatnot so i just pushed the boolits back the direction they came.

Proceeded to open one particular cylinder up a little with fine emory cloth and drill. Got the boolits to push through with maybe 5 lb pressure. Proceeded to load up some of the boolits from the same batch as used for the press-fit test. Figured i was in for a one-hole group.

Nah, instead, my chore boy brush showed me showers of lead coming out the muzzle and breech end with each pass of the brush. After 2 cylinders of shooting! And deteriorating accuracy.


I thought to myself: you damn fool, you just ruined this classic gun which previously shot "fine". It was a nice old s&w magnum. I wont break any hearts right now mentioning the model and size.

So then i proceeded to shoot: gp100 in 357 mag, sti spartan 1911 in 45 acp, imi baby eagle 9 mm (polygonal rifling), and s&w 460V. All of these had shot well, with the same loads i shot sunday, and i never had noticed any leading when cleaning afterward.

Given the chore boy treatment immediately after firing, they ALL showed showers of lead being flicked away from each end of barrel. That is, except the 460 magnum. It was indeed a few insights gained about that gun which inspired this "project".

Worst was the baby eagle. The 45 was really not too bad, pretty minimal lead and no accuracy deterioration.


So now i am back to the drawing board. I think i need to FOCUS more on mastering each gun instead of trying to work them all out at once. Honestly i dont even have any questions at this point because i am struck so awed by a number of things.

Particularly how tonight, as i was trying to suss out the problem with the focal piece of this discussion (OK, its a 4" model 19) i cant even get the same boolits to pass through the cylinder that i did saturday after reaming. I suspect now that there is (and maybe WAS) lead buildup in the chambers that i for some reason cant see, reducing the apparent diameter.

Really not sure though. If anyone has had a similar experience, i would love to hear about it, and how it was resolved. I do not have any particular questions, because every issue coming to mind has been covered in a sticky.

I guess my only point here is for people to consider that maybe there is more leading going on than you thought, and that is the cause of some accuracy issues, even if it is not apparent when you clean your gun.

Time to slow waaaaay down and rethink things. Better moulds (round) are probably in order soon. I have gotten by with mostly lee, a few lymans, an RCBS, and one custom so far. Been holding off on the customs til i knew what boolit i wanted. Guess i should just "bite the bullet (boolit) as they say"

[Tatume]

Time to slow waaaaay down and rethink things. Better moulds (round) are probably in order soon. I have gotten by with mostly lee, a few lymans, an RCBS, and one custom so far. Been holding off on the customs til i knew what boolit i wanted. Guess i should just "bite the bullet (boolit) as they say"

I don't think spending more money on molds is going to cure your leading problem. You should work on fixing the problem and then order the molds you want.

Take care, Tom

[44man]

Everyone makes fun of me for shooting harder boolits!
Have you tried water dropped yet?

[Wayne Smith]

Lead coming out of "both ends of the barrel"!? That suggests timing issues in the gun, not boolit issues. Proper diagnosis is critical, otherwise you attempt to 'fix' something that may not be broken and don't fix the real problem.

['74 sharps]

Alloy hardness?

[Hickok]

Give us some of the details of your load, boolit sizing, chamber throats of your Smith etc.

I have an old Model 19 that does great with .358" sized boolits cast of ACWW, as does my Smith 686. I run the boolits in the 1200-1250 fps range with no leading.

[C.F.Plinker]

Start with fit first. Have you slugged the barrel? If so, what did it slug at. If not, get one of the 1/4 oz donut type fishing sinkers at the hardware store. You may have to tap in on an anvil gently a few times to make sure that it is just a little larger than the bore. Oil bith it and the bore land drive it through. Pay attention when it gets down to there the barrel passes through the frame. If it gets harder to move there you may have a constriction at that point. Wipe the oil off and measure it. There are threads on the site about how to measure for Smith and Wesson barrels which have 5 grooves. After you have measured it take it and see if it goes through each of the cylinder holes without pressure. If it does then the cylinders are all larger than the barrel bore. If not, the cylinder is squeezing the boolit down until it is smaller than the barrel. The latter is an almost sure fire way to get leading. Now take 6 more of those sinkers, oil them up and oil up the cylinder holes and slug each of them. Measure them at two places 90 * apart. This will tell you how uniform the cylinder is as well as what you should be sizing your boolits to. Let us know what you find out.

[Larry Gibson]

I don't think spending more money on molds is going to cure your leading problem. You should work on fixing the problem and then order the molds you want.

Take care, Tom

+1 along with the suggestions of the other posters. The moulds you have are not the cause of the leading; the alloy, the lube, the sizing or the loads are. You should look there for the solution.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

+1 along with the suggestions of the other posters. The moulds you have are not the cause of the leading; the alloy, the lube, the sizing or the loads are. You should look there for the solution.

Larry Gibson
I agree, the boolit design itself has nothing to do with leading.
Throat size to groove size was mentioned and is also correct.
If fit is good, then alloy, lube and the powder used will be where to look.
To have a barrel prone to leading is so rare I don't even bring it up. Most of us have shot too many guns that never seen a condom bullet. Too many right out of the box that love lead.

[captaint]

Doc, You're right in dealing with one gun, one problem at a time. For some peace of mind, when you go to tap your slugs through your cylinder throats, just remove the one screw in the frame that holds the crane in place. Remove screw, slide out the crane/cylinder - easy. And way easier to be able to tap a slug through the throat. Painless. Hope this helps. Mike

[DrCaveman]

Glad that the '5 groove' issue was brought up, since im pretty sure that i either didnt notice that when i slugged the barrel about a year ago. Also, i probably used my tinker toy calipers since i didnt get a micrometer til about six months ago.

Also, i didnt write anything down about any slugging data. I think i may have "slugged" it and then thought to myself: "perfect" and then not thought about it again til now. Ive since begun a log of slugged diameters for several guns, but not the 19.

Theres nothing inherently wrong about using a .457" round ball to slug a 358" barrel is there?

When i said "lead out both ends of the barrel" i was just referring to the way the cleaning brush flung it out. I figured this meant the leading had occurred for most of the barrel length, but maybe not. Im sure there was a bit down near the forcing cone because i saw it, and also sure there was some at the muzzle end because i saw it.

Alloy used was 50/50 pure lead/COWW. 44man's suggestion of harder alloy is one approach i will definitely try. Gotta figure out how to water drop and then size the boolits down without losing the benefit of water dropping. Surely been covered on here before

Lube was a light tumble with recluse 45/45/10. Maybe i need to dip with a better lube, too, although the tumble (i think) was serving me well before.

I think tonight will be "gun measurement Wednesday" as i need more answers before you can help me.

Thanks for the input and suggestions

[454PB]

To avoid removing the added hardness of water dropping, size the boolits ASAP before they begin hardening. I size immediately after casting.....like within an hour.

[Larry Gibson]

"Alloy used was 50/50 pure lead/COWW. 44man's suggestion of harder alloy is one approach i will definitely try. Gotta figure out how to water drop and then size the boolits down without losing the benefit of water dropping. Surely been covered on here before

Lube was a light tumble with recluse 45/45/10. Maybe i need to dip with a better lube, too, although the tumble (i think) was serving me well before."

I suggest you try COWWs with 2% tin added first. COWW alloy varies a lot in content these days. The addition of tin will better alloy with the antimony (SbSn) which will then go into solution with the lead much better and the antimony won't crystalize out separately when the alloy solidifies. If that alloy works you can then add lead (Pb) if wanted. That alloy will also harden better when WQing if you try that.

I suggest you try LLA straight as a lube 1st before deleting it down with other ingredients. My guess is the lube you are using, especially with a "light tumble", is the major portion of the leading problem. Use the LLA as per Lees' directions.

Doing both of these will probably cure your leading problems.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

I don't like Alox---PERIOD. Only leading I ever had was with it. Now I go two or three years, never cleaning the bore and don't know why I ever put a rod down a bore.
Naw, even Larry will not change my mind!

[Larry Gibson]

44man

Solution is simple....don't call it "alox". Just call it "good lube" and be happy.........:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[44man]

44man

Solution is simple....don't call it "alox". Just call it "good lube" and be happy.........:drinks:

Larry Gibson
Naw, can't do it!
But you are sure right about WW's today. Who the heck knows what is in them? I see groups change with each pot but have no way to combine and melt all I have to one batch.

[MtGun44]

LLA alone has been shown to be a often effective but marginal lube system. Double dip,
try the JPW mixes or go to the real solution, get a lubrisizer and put a real lube on them
like NRA 50-50, LBT soft blue or many other KNOWN GOOD conventional lubes.

LLA is a bandaid and can work, but it definitely fails a lot, too. Lube is the primary
suspect at this point, but FIT IS CRITICAL, too.

Bill

[DrCaveman]

Since i only have .358" and .356" sizers for this range of boolits, i decided to work with what i have and change what i can

Re-lubed the remaining boolits from last run through the model 19 with some runfiverun simple lube. I really like working with that stuff

Dropped some new boolits, same alloy, water dropped this time. Sized to .358" after dip lubing, about 2 hours after water quench. Hopefully the hardness from water dropping wasnt compromised

I shall load these up tomorrow with the same load which stung me before: 5 gr unique, 38 special cases. Random brass headstamp? Yes.

Ive read a few things lately from archives of this forum about the importance of brass choice. Wondering how much that plays into leading and accuracy. I didnt think it would matter in 38 spl loads but im ready to be schooled

[MtGun44]

WD is a waste of time with .38 Spl. Should work just fine, unless your
throats are way undersized, very rare in revolvers. Good lube and good
fit are critical.

Bill

[DrCaveman]

Go figure...

A switch to dip-lube using runfiverun's simple lube got rid of leading. In this instance, for me, with this gun, and this alloy.

Accuracy improved as well. Not a noticable difference between water dropped and air cooled...for this particular load and gun

Guess i didnt 'ruin' the gun after all. But i do have more appreciation for lubes now. 5 gr unique, lee 358-158-rf, 50/50 pb/ww, 38 special, model 19 4" barrel. Sized .358"

Good to go. Now just need more practice to make the cloverleafs a regular thing

[RobS]

Everyone makes fun of me for shooting harder boolits!
Have you tried water dropped yet?

I don't but you are right many do. I've went both directions and whenever I find whatever my firearm likes best that's where I leave it.