Best powder for reduced 45-70 loads

[glockky]

First let me say I have always been a fan of the 45-70. But today at the range shooting the 330gr bullets at 1800+fps got old really quick. What powders work good for reduced loads in 45-70? I was afraid just using low charges of slow burning powder would give me lots of velocity swings with it having such a low load density. I have seen some load data with 2400 powder that looks like where I want to be at in velocity, just worried accuracy would suffer.

[btroj]

2400 gives very good accuracy in my Marlin with a 420 gr cast.

Try somewhere around 22 to 24 gr and see what happens. I bet you will be very pleasantly suprised.

[starmac]

Do you have any 4759 available, I haven't yet tried it, but have always heard great reports on it. I did pickup 4 pounds of it today, to find out first hand. lol

[Catshooter]

I loaded up a bunch of 12 grains of Universal Clays under a 365 grainer.

When chronographing them I thought my Chrony was broke. 1208, 1208, 1209, 1208,1210. Readings like that. And the target showed it: many load (including that one) will go into just over an inch to an inch and a half a 100 yards.

Very pleasant to shoot, very cheap to shoot and fun as the dickens to boot! :)


Cat

[Keyston44]

I like 14 gr of Unique with my Lee 457-405-F.

You can also check out this place for other powders. http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Key

[Doc Highwall]

About 24-25 grains of 2400 powder approximates the original black powder velocities with a 400 grain bullet.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I like 11 grains of Unique behind a 500 gr Lee boolit, my crony says 1100+FPS. Great load in my Sharps and my Pedesorli Rem. Roller 45-70's.
13 grains behind any 45-70 boolit in the 300 to 400 gr. range.

[oscarflytyer]

I plan on trying Unique and 2400 with mine. IIRC, 38.5 grns of IMR 3031 (from Waters' Pet Loads) behind a 405 grn gives about 1350 fps - which I would expect to be a semi-mild load. This one is on my list also

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned 5744. 25 gr will work just fine.

Randy

[Westwindmike]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned 5744. 25 gr will work just fine.

Randy

Same here. 25.0gr of 5744 with a Lee 330gr gives me 1250fps in my Marlin 1895.

[hickfu]

About 24-25 grains of 2400 powder approximates the original black powder velocities with a 400 grain bullet.

Us Doc's have to stick together.... I use 24gr of 2400 behind my 400gr plain base boolit and its a nice easy push.



Doc

[waco]

Do you guys use a Dacron filler with the light powder charges in the 45-70?

[MtGun44]

10-14 gr of Unique works very well. No Dacron needed.

Bill

[MT Chambers]

Trail Boss works real well but don't try to run up the speed as pressures rise quickly.

[Larry Gibson]

Do you guys use a Dacron filler with the light powder charges in the 45-70?

I use a Dacron filler with 410 gr or lighter bullets over 2400 and 4759. With Unique or faster burning powders I do not use the Dacron filler but I use 210 - 300 gr cast bullets with those powders. I do not use the filler with 450+ weight cast bullets over 2400 or 4759.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

I have used Dacron with 2400 and keep going back to no Dacron. The Dacron is an extra step and didn't make enough difference for me to keep using it. I did find I needed to reduce the powder charge from 24 to 22.5 gr to keep the velocity the same.

[smkummer]

I was just shooting 14.6 grains Unique behind a Lyman 350 grain bullets. 1300 FPS out of my H&R repro Officers model trapdoor. I can shoot this all day long. Clanging metal targets at 200 yards. 10 grains of Unique and 400 grain soft lead slug, will get any original trapdoor to shoot if it has any chance at all of shooting well. 5744 does as well and I can get more velocity with trapdoor pressures but the cost of powder is almost 3 times as much.

[smokeywolf]

Back in 1973, I used Unique very successfully in loads for an original Trapdoor Springfield. With a pretty conservative load and my young eyes at the time, I could make beautiful music with a 200 yard gong.

smokeywolf

[btroj]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned 5744. 25 gr will work just fine.

Randy

I don't use 5744 as I don't find it does anything special enough to justify the cost. If it was priced more reasonably I would use it more.

I find 2400 does anything 5744 will do and it measures better and is tons cheaper.

[aspangler]

25 gr. 2400 under Lee 405f with dacron filler. 1450fps average with ES of 6. about as much recoil as a 20 gauge with a light field load.

[1989toddm]

I just loaded and shot some Lee 340s with 15.7 gr Trailboss- from IMR load data site. I was shooting at soda bottles, but was pretty accurate for that, and I was amazed at the comfort after 20 rounds...even with a new steel butt plate.

[Larry Gibson]

I have used Dacron with 2400 and keep going back to no Dacron. The Dacron is an extra step and didn't make enough difference for me to keep using it. I did find I needed to reduce the powder charge from 24 to 22.5 gr to keep the velocity the same.

Whether I use a Dacron filler with 2400 in the 45-70 depends on the bullet weight and the wanted velocity. In your earlier post #2 of; 2400 gives very good accuracy in my Marlin with a 420 gr cast. Try somewhere around 22 to 24 gr and see what happens. I bet you will be very pleasantly surprised. I wouldn't use a Dacron filler with that weight of bullet and that charge of 2400 either. It will ignite and reach a sufficient level of psi to burn efficiently w/o the filler.

However the OP is using a 330 gr cast bullet and my experience with such is 2400 will not burn efficiently under that weight a bullet with or w/o a Dacron filler until the velocity is up around or over the 1800 fps the OP wants to back off of. With the OP's 330 gr bullet and his desire for a lesser load I would recommend Unique; 10 - 12 gr w/0 a Dacron filler.

Larry Gibson

[jimwill48]

The "Load".... 13gr Red Dot with a 405gr bullet....

[glockky]

I am looking for around 1500 fps

[44wcf]

I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with mine own eyes.
A light load of Trailboss with a 405 bullet would reach the 500 yard plate with very little recoil.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

15 grains of Unique with small cotton over powder wad behind 405 grain govt. bullet. Gives around 1237 fps in my Pedersoli Sharps. Light recoil. If you want a little more umpha use 19 grains of 4759 behind the same bullet.
I have never tried 5744 and at current prices I never will.

[WALLNUTT]

28gr of 4198 shoots best in my #3 with a Saeco 300gr ACWW

[smokeywolf]

I was just shooting 14.6 grains Unique behind a Lyman 350 grain bullets. 1300 FPS out of my H&R repro Officers model trapdoor. I can shoot this all day long. Clanging metal targets at 200 yards. 10 grains of Unique and 400 grain soft lead slug, will get any original trapdoor to shoot if it has any chance at all of shooting well. 5744 does as well and I can get more velocity with trapdoor pressures but the cost of powder is almost 3 times as much.

Checked my old ledger. Back in '73 I was loading 10 grains of Unique under the old Lyman 385 grain RN. I was shooting these out of an original Springfield Trapdoor rifle. Note in my ledger says "good to 300 yards".

smokeywolf

[Artful]

Either Unique or 5744 worked well in light to medium 45-70 loads in my experience.

330 @ 1200 fps with 2400 is what your looking for...
hmmm
41st lyman handbook
345 grn 457192 20 grains of 2400 gives 1300 fps
325 grn 457122 20 grains of 2400 gives 1325 fps max load 25 = 1600 fps

RCBS Cast Bullet Manual Number 1 - Marlin 1895 45-70 loads
300 grn 45-300-FN 27 grn 2400 gives 1538 fps - max 29 = 1655 fps

[Catshooter]

As you can tell, nobody likes the 45-70. :)


Cat

[Doc Highwall]

smokeywolf, I used 10 grains of Unique with a 385 grain bullet in a trapdoor also, it was chronograph at 930 fps. As a matter in fact 1973 was the year I started to reload and cast bullets the Lyman 457124 to be exact.

[Lloyd Smale]

a good reduced hunting load is 22-24 grains of 2400 and a 405. That load was a favorite of paco kellys and if its good enough for him its----. I fun mouse fart load for plinking is 3 grains of bullseye and a 300-400 grain bullet.

[grouch]

My rolling block says 24 - 25gr of 2400 behind a 420gr saeco spire point or the Lee 405gr mold(mine is the solid point and weighs 420gr) is best. A good alternative is 13gr of Unique. The 2400 has grouped under 1" at 100yds(average of 4 - 5 shot groups) a couple of times using good aperture sights. Unique is nearly as good.
Grouch

[W.R.Buchanan]

Btroj: I bought my 8 lb. jug of 5744 5 years ago when it was still reasonably priced. Since then people have given me several cans of the stuff. I don't know why they did this?

I use it in several cast boolit loads, but I am hardly stuck on it. It works for what I'm trying to do with those cartridges however the old standbys of 2400, Unique, etc. deliver some pretty impressive results that have been shown here.

Randy

[MtGun44]

Both 5744 and 2400 use twice as much powder per shot as Unique, so half as many
shots per can. I can't see why someone would want to choose to get half as many
shots per can when powder costs about the same for any kind - if anything, Unique
is cheaper per pound than most powders.

Bill

[smokeywolf]

At the suggestion of KirkD, I tried 5744 in 45-70 a couple of years ago. Consistency and accuracy was good. And, it mimics black powder pressures pretty well. But, efficiency and economy was not so good. In lower pressure (level 1, Trapdoor) loads, it leaves a lot of unburned granules behind, doesn't deliver a complete burn.

smokeywolf

[John Allen]

Both 5744 and 2400 use twice as much powder per shot as Unique, so half as many
shots per can. I can't see why someone would want to choose to get half as many
shots per can when powder costs about the same for any kind - if anything, Unique
is cheaper per pound than most powders.

Bill


Bill, yet another reason why unique is my go to powder

[glockky]

Can you get 1500fps with unique out of my 20" barrel encore?

[Andy_P]

Both 5744 and 2400 use twice as much powder per shot as Unique, so half as many
shots per can. I can't see why someone would want to choose to get half as many
shots per can when powder costs about the same for any kind - if anything, Unique
is cheaper per pound than most powders.

Bill

By the same line of reasoning Bullseye is much better than Unique. If one powder could do it all, we'd have but one powder. Unique is among my favorites for versatility, but while generally good, I have yet to find it the most accurate in any load, and it only yields top velocities in small (pistol) cartridges.


Can you get 1500fps with unique out of my 20" barrel encore?

Maybe, with very light for caliber bullets.

[bjklme]

For 350 gr boolits, PB and GC, and velocities ~1350 fps, I use

18.5 gr BLUE DOT Win Large Rifle Mag primer
18.0 gr STEEL Win Large Rifle Mag primer

For these BLUE DOT and STEEL loads the magnum primers gave better sd and accuracy than standard primers, but the difference was minor. I don't use fillers.

I learned a lot from the www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm website, and strongly recommend the OP visit it as suggested by another member in this thread. BLUE DOT and STEEL have the properties needed for reduced loads, as described there. STEEL is a slightly slower burn rate than BLUE DOT in the 45-70.

Do not use these BLUE DOT or STEEL loads in trapdoor rifles, or rifles in that strength class. They are only for the Marlin 1895 and Win 1886 class, or stronger, and are near the max powder weights. I have loaded both powders slightly higher than this, but accuracy did not live up there. One should start 3 gr lower, and work up to these loads.

I relate to the OP's experience. It seemed all the 45-70 loads in the manuals, even the low pressure loads for the trapdoor rifles, produced an abundance of velocity in all of my 45-70 rifles. The corresponding recoil was not conducive to accurate repeat shots from the lever guns in the field. The manuals have loads for UNIQUE and 2400, but nothing in between.

So, the philosophical question for me became "what is the velocity to seek in the 45-70?". The original black powder velocities were my answer. For lever action rifles with 26" barrels... ~1480 fps for 300 gr boolits, 1350 fps for 350 gr, and 1180 fps for 500 gr. It was difficult to find loads that would operate at these velocities. I worked up these 350 gr loads specifically to duplicate Teddy Roosevelt's 45-75-350 black powder ballistics, which he used in the Dakotas and wrote so much about. I figured if he could kill grizzly bears with it then it was enough for whatever I would do. Once the boolit is out of the barrel, isn't it the same as what he hunted with?

The OP asks about best powder for reduced 45-70 loads. I think STEEL is the "best" because it will match the original black powder velocities for all bullet weights. It has all the desirable properties discussed on the gmdr website for reduced loads, and behaves as a slower burnrate version of UNIQUE. The only downside is STEEL does not flow well through the powder measure. You need to weight each charge. I like BLUE DOT, and have a lot of experience using it as a target load with 300 gr boolits in the 1885 high wall. I killed a deer (at 30 yds, 1885 rifle) with this BLUE DOT load and the 330 gr Lyman 457122 HP, which weighs in at 345 gr in my WW alloy.

[Shooter6br]

Unique or Universal 12.5 g with 350 g bullet 1200 fps out of 22 in barrel

[Pepe Ray]

In all the many years I've haunted this cave I've never subscribed to a thread. Here's where I jump in.
Last fall I stumbled on to a Baikal 45-70 S/S. The only one I'd ever seen. Fell head over heels in love and brought her home.
So far old age and unusually cold winter and ice conditions have discouraged all action for me. Thursday next is the first day of spring so I'm anxiously waiting for my black flies to signal that my range is "open".

Thank you all for the inspiration to get back to my stretching exercises and diet watching. Life moves on. Praise Jesus!!!!!
Pepe Ray