Shilen 35 caliber barrel?

[Trailblazer]

I have had the 35 Whelen itch ever since I bought a couple of heavy 35 molds. I bought an A&B barrel a few years ago and returned it because the lands were only about .0025" tall and the barrel looked like it had been reamed with a fine thread tap.

I just bought a Shilen barrel that has been chambered in 35 Whelen and threaded for a Mauser 98. The barrel is about 20 years old but was never fired so it is still a new barrel. Anyway the first thing I notice when I cast an eye down the bore is that the rifling doesn't look very deep. I tapped a slug into the muzzle and the thing is almost a dead ringer for the A&B barrel except it has a much better finish. Bore is .352" and groove measured .357". I dropped a bullet in the breech and the rifling also marked the nose at about .352". So here I am again with .0025" tall lands. It is an eight groove barrel. I am trying to decide whether to keep it. Are .0025" tall lands normal for a Shilen barrel?

I know it would probably work fine for jacketed bullets but I may never load a jacketed bullet in it. The question is how well will it work for cast hunting loads? The noses on the two heavy molds I have, the Saeco 352 and a 290 grain NEI, both have .354" bore riders so that should work. The reason for the Whelen is to be able to push them to 2200-2400 fps. Will the barrel work at those speeds?

[S.R.Custom]

Maybe. As you've noticed, the Shilen barrel is designed for jacketed bullets; you're going to have to keep the barrel clean and cast your bullets hard. What's the twist?

[sundog]

About 4-5 years ago I put a then new 14 twist Shilen on a 700. It's set up for the 358009 Improved run through a .360 sizer. All is good.

[S.R.Custom]

The 358009 is a good bullet for that ap. Lots of full diameter bearing surface.

[Bass Ackward]

The question is how well will it work for cast hunting loads? The noses on the two heavy molds I have, the Saeco 352 and a 290 grain NEI, both have .354" bore riders so that should work. The reason for the Whelen is to be able to push them to 2200-2400 fps. Will the barrel work at those speeds?


Really? My bore is .350. Wonder when that barrel was made? Generally, the lower the rifling height, the higher the percentage of bullet length you need to be bearing area at the same bullet weight / hardness level. So your drive bands may need to be a little wider too. Remember, you can design anything you "need" in a custom mold that is generally cheaper than the Saeco's anyway. So you can increase what ever you need to.

Your barrel was bored and then polished. When the button was pulled it chattered which is why the .357 measurement. When the grooves clean up and breaks in, these marks will wear away. Thus your groove dimension will open another .001 to .002 and your rifling will then be taller by .0005 to .001, if that makes you feel any better.

Your barrel will handle those speeds, but accuracy at that level will be contingent on a very few powder options assuming you have 24" of barrel to work with and you want best accuracy. For each additional inch less, lop off 50 fps from your peak accuracy expectations.

But it depends on your accuracy standards too. My peak velocities were: 210gr @ 2400 using 54 gr RL15, 220 gr @ 2300 using 52 gr of RL15, 250 is 2100 at 45 gr RL15. (See the trend) All of those are MOA or less. I can get 250 grains of ACWW to 2250 fps if I accept 1 1/2" with 47.5 gr of RL15 using PSB as a filler. And I would too, if the animal kill zone was big enough, say Elk or larger. You simply don't need it for deer.

No deer is going to look back at you in disgust because you shot a 250 @ 2100 fps as long as you don't go too hard with your slug. If I had a choice between 100 fps more velocity or a 2 BHN softer bullet, I'd choose the softer slug for game every time.

[Char-Gar]

There are those on this board, who know more about barrels than I do..but..that doesn't keep me from sticking my nose in.

The Shilen barrel, like most others, are button rifled. If is easier to push or pull a button through a reamed hole, if there is less metal to displace. Hence, button rifled barrels tend to have grooves that are more shallow than barrel which have had the metal removed, buy a single point tool or broach.

This is not to say that button rifles barrels can't do well with cast bullets, for indeed they can. However, if I was building a rifle, dedicated to cast bullets, I would want a cut rifled barrel. In today's market, I think the Kreiger barrels are a good choice.

[Trailblazer]

Kreiger is a sore subject. There was a brand new 358, 14" twist Kreiger on ebay early this year with the "make offer"option. I made an offer and could have bought it for $180 shipped. When I mentioned it to the wife she started babbling about taxes to pay, etc. I was distracted by work and after her spiel I passed it up. A week later she spent $500 on her son who is a veterinarian and whose wife is a vet. Not exactly poor needy people.

Anyway the Shilen has a 14" twist but I haven't verified that. It is 24" long.

Sundog, do you know what the bore/groove dimensions are on your barrel?

Bass, I was told it was made about 20 years ago. Is your barrel a Shilen too? I am not looking for a deer cartridge. I am quite satisfied with my 356 Winchester for deer. I have a good 250 grain load for it and I have the RCBS 200 grain mold too. I haven't found "the load" for the RCBS 200 but I haven't spent the time on it yet. I wanted the Whelen primarily to launch the 290 grain NEI for bigger game like elk. It does make me feel better to know the grooves might deepen. Have you had any luck with slower powders than RL-15? I have several pounds of H4350 but that is probably to slow.

These are my 35 bullets with my 356 Win dummy loads:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/556/23947356_Loads.jpg
They are the RCBS 35-200-FN, Saeco 352, and NEI-358-280-GC. As you can see the NEI has three wide driving bands. It is very accurate in the 356 WIN but I have to seat them pretty deep to be able to extract them easily in that rifle. If I seat them long the nose sticks in the rifling and wants to pull the bullet if I need to unload the rifle. The length of the Whelen will give me more flexibility in seating depth.

[sundog]

TB, nope, never measured it. Kinda never had a reason since it shot good from the git-go. If I premember right, my 35 Whelen load with the 358009I is 40.0/4895 for ~1900fps. As far as I'm concerned, it has room to be 'souped up' a bit as long as accuracy would not fall off. Never shot anything but paper with it - but it's just settin' there in case. Oh, yeah, Felix and I shot a BIG chunk of concrete that had been dumped at the river. Everything just kinda nicked away at it. Two or three solids thumps with the 358009 cratered it into about 3 or 4 pieces. Bang,...Ka-wump!

[RBak]

If I premember right, my 35 Whelen load with the 358009I is 40.0/4895 for ~1900fps.

Sundog, (or anyone)
I don't want to detract from this thread, it is great reading, but I see a lot of the "I" suffix being used.... ie 358009I..... I don't understand that.

My own 358009 has a suffix of AV...and I don't understand that either.
Directly under the 358009AV is 375, and on the bottm left corner of the mould is 2H.

Would some of the more knowledgeable be kind enough to straighten some of this out for me?

Thanks, Russ... :drinks:

Merry Christmas to all you folks!

[sundog]

Russ, I = Improved. It was a callaboration of myself and David Mos, mostly, and others on the board that bought one. The moulds were works of art, and only about 8 or 9 were made. Maybe 3 in SC and the rest double. They were all .360 except for two that were gifted out to AnthonyB (which I have back for a little tuning) - .359 -, and Maineboy - .358. It's a knockoff of the Ly 3589 with a bit of a meplat on it.

[RBak]

I=Improved. :???: Now why in the world didn't I think of that!

I've read a little bit about that mould here on the forum, but I can't find the original link.
Wish I had been paying attention when that puppy was on the drawing board.

Thanks Sundog.

Russ...

[floodgate]

RussB:

Yeah, the #358009"I" was the improved version from a Lee group buy a couple of years back. On the Lyman original, the "AV" is a suffix used since the 1970's, to identify the vintage and source of the cherry used to cut the mould: The "AV" identifies it as the first cherry (A, B, C, etc...) supplied by outside vendor "V" - we do not have the identification for the specific vendors; the second letter "vendor codes" all seem to be from the last part of the alphabet. The "2H" identifies which particular machine and operator in the Lyman shop actually cut that mould - again, we have not asked for these specific ID's. Hope this helps.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!

floodgate

EDIT: OOOPPPPSSS! It was NOT a Lee GB; per Sundog above, it was one of the Mountain Moulds "specials". I just got my new #457192 from Lyman, as negotiated by w30wcf and Lou Sellman (THANKS, GUYS!), so maybe there's a way to get a run of the originals.

fg

[RBak]

Doug, Your indepth knowledge of such things has simply amazed me for years. Thank you!

It sure is nice having folks like yourself around. :drinks:

I hope you have a real nice Christmas, and Santa brings you everything on your wish list.

Same goes to the rest of you fellas! I've learned a lot from you guys over the years!

Respectfully, Russ...

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, I was told it was made about 20 years ago. Is your barrel a Shilen too? I am not looking for a deer cartridge. I am quite satisfied with my 356 Winchester for deer. I have a good 250 grain load for it and I have the RCBS 200 grain mold too. I haven't found "the load" for the RCBS 200 but I haven't spent the time on it yet. I wanted the Whelen primarily to launch the 290 grain NEI for bigger game like elk. It does make me feel better to know the grooves might deepen. Have you had any luck with slower powders than RL-15? I have several pounds of H4350 but that is probably to slow.


TB,

I don't doubt that launching 290 grains might be needed for something. But I sure as heck don't want to be hunting it with only a 35 in my hands. I am not a fan of "real" heavy for caliber cast bullets as I prefer to go up in bore diameter when above average caliber weight is needed. Question is, is it EVER needed?

I read here a few years back where I believe Shuz shot a moose 5 times with the RCBS 200 from broad side to raking shots and the bullets are still going somewhere. I think one ricocheted through here a couple a weeks back. Waksupi wrote of shooting through a buffalo with 235 grains. At that point, I said, Hmmm, I have as much weight as I need. I just have to tinker with hardness.

Lead is a superior penetrator to conventional jacketed, so the truth be known, you need less weight with a cast slug at equal velocities. Not sure that iffin I had your 356, that I'd even bother.

Yes. My Whelen is a Shilen. Shilen WILL make you taller rifling if you call and request it. Problem is that you will pay about as much for cut rifling and it still is button rifled. My tube is 24" long. After extensive testing, velocity for me peaks at this powder speed with ACWW. 4350 lowers my peak accuracy point by almost 100 fps and is too dirty for even 10 shot strings. Even H-380 drops about 50 fps. A harder bullet might be different. Could be, your bullet weight will be just the ticket. Just trust your chrono and Professor Target.

[AnthonyB]

I'm getting 1900 with the 358009I from my 12 inch twist BB 94 356 Winchester. If elephants ever invade the garden I'll be ready.... Tony

[Trailblazer]

Ah yes, Bass, don't know that I will ever "need" it either, but when has that stopped us? I have RL-15 that I bought for another cartridge so I will try that. I have a lot of BL-C(2) and it looks good in the books so I will have to try that too. Thanks for the load info.

Tony, I have also pushed the NEI to 1900 in the 356. Makes it into a real little thumper.

[waksupi]

Bass Ackward, it was the Heavy Bator, 277 gr. from my mold, that went through the bison. The 237 gr. go through elk handily. Haven't tried those ones on buffalo, but may get the chance in the next few weeks.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass Ackward, it was the Heavy Bator, 277 gr. from my mold, that went through the bison. The 237 gr. go through elk handily. Haven't tried those ones on buffalo, but may get the chance in the next few weeks.


Ooops. That's what happens when you trust your memory.

[Trailblazer]

Well that does it! This barrel is supposed to have a 14" twist. I finally measured it and it is 12"! I think this one is going back where it came from.

[waksupi]

Well that does it! This barrel is supposed to have a 14" twist. I finally measured it and it is 12"! I think this one is going back where it came from.


Trailblazer, one of my .358 win. has the 1-12 twist. Shoots the Bator Heavy into about an inch, at 2080 fps. You may not want to rush into getting rid of it. Doing a bit of extrapolation, this is above performance of any factory load.

[Trailblazer]

Waksupi, won't the shallow rifling be more of a problem with the faster twist?

I also wanted to be able to shoot pistol bullets for plinkers. I thought the slower twist would be better for light bullets. It has been easier to find accurate loads in my 12" twist 356 with the heavier bullets. I figured the 14" twist was worth a try and is different from what I already have. On the other hand I got this barrel for a good price so I don't know.

[waksupi]

I can't give you a positive answer about how cast will work in your rifling depth. I do know there are several around here who have Shilens on thier BPCR rifles, and have good luck with them.

[softpoint]

I have 2 rifles with .35 cal. Shilen barrels, One a 700 remy, the other a 600remy.,both rifles shoot the 200 gr. Lyman, and the 245gr.Saeco very well,with the edge going to the Lyman so far.( I haven't worked with the Saeco as much) Both of these rifles are in .358 Win. cal.

[Paul B]

Well that does it! This barrel is supposed to have a 14" twist. I finally measured it and it is 12"! I think this one is going back where it came from.

If you decide you want to get rid of it, I just might be interested.
Paul B.

[Trailblazer]

I am going to keep it for the time being. It is just too easy to try it out!

[Trailblazer]

I have put several rounds through this barrel now and so far haven't found the magic combination. My first range session ended when the scope self destructed. The groups from the second session are suspect because I found one scope ring to be a little loose and the wind was howling. The groups were strung horizontal but either the wind or the loose screw could account for that. For the third session I put a skim coat on the glass bedding because I wasn't completely satisfied with it and tightened all the screws. I tried two loads with the 250 grain Saeco 352. One load put five into about 4" at 100 yds. The other put 4 into a horizontal string about 3" long.

The crown is suspect because the tool chattered when it was cut. It did look concentric so I tried it as is. I looked at it closely after my last session and the fouling pattern is not concentric. It looks like the bore is wider on one side .050" or .060" down into the barrel. I am going to pull the barrel and recrown it before I fool with it anymore but I am wondering if a bad crown can show up as horizontal stringing?

[waksupi]

I have put several rounds through this barrel now and so far haven't found the magic combination. My first range session ended when the scope self destructed. The groups from the second session are suspect because I found one scope ring to be a little loose and the wind was howling. The groups were strung horizontal but either the wind or the loose screw could account for that. For the third session I put a skim coat on the glass bedding because I wasn't completely satisfied with it and tightened all the screws. I tried two loads with the 250 grain Saeco 352. One load put five into about 4" at 100 yds. The other put 4 into a horizontal string about 3" long.

The crown is suspect because the tool chattered when it was cut. It did look concentric so I tried it as is. I looked at it closely after my last session and the fouling pattern is not concentric. It looks like the bore is wider on one side .050" or .060" down into the barrel. I am going to pull the barrel and recrown it before I fool with it anymore but I am wondering if a bad crown can show up as horizontal stringing?

It could be, that the barrel isn't broke in yet. You may want to consider lapping it.

[Marlin Junky]

Is the 277 grain Bator every going to be offered again in double cavity form?

MJ

[MT Gianni]

The Bator heavy was in a 6 cavity and the bator lite [235 gr] was the 2 cavity AIRC. That would be a group buy issue. Gianni

[Bass Ackward]

1. I tried two loads with the 250 grain Saeco 352. One load put five into about 4" at 100 yds. The other put 4 into a horizontal string about 3" long.

2. I am wondering if a bad crown can show up as horizontal stringing?


1. And the loads were? Try @ 45 - 47.5 grains of 4320 / RL15 with a standard rifle primer. Anywhere in there you shouldn't go over 2" and it should walk right in. Or your bullets are to soft, to big, not big enough, crappy or not enough lube, etc.

2. It can in rare cases. But so can lube break down. If you are getting 3" or bigger groups with lead at any velocity, you have a problem. If you shot the 4" group first, you shot over leading. Stringing can be many things, my moneys on leading.

[smokemjoe]

I have 4 barrels for my 35 Rem. twist are a 17,14,12 and a 10, The 12 twist will work with your heavy bullets and the lighter one, I have 3 heavy molds and then put on a 10 twist which works better, I would of used Shilien barrel but Douglas make threaded and prechambered barrels. One barrel is also a Pac-nor and shoots lead well. Hope this help,Use W.Ws and 1/2 pure lead and its a exc. deer bullet. Joe

[Trailblazer]

There is no evidence of leading. I have both 4320 and RL-15 so I will try those loads too.

I looked at the crown again in good light and it is ugly. It is not concentric and one side doesn't look right. I didn't like the looks of it when I first saw it but I wasn't setup to recrown it at the time so I decided to try it. I am going to recrown it before I waste another trip to the range. This will be a test!

[Bass Ackward]

There is no evidence of leading. I have both 4320 and RL-15 so I will try those loads too.

I looked at the crown again in good light and it is ugly. It is not concentric and one side doesn't look right. I didn't like the looks of it when I first saw it but I wasn't setup to recrown it at the time so I decided to try it. I am going to recrown it before I waste another trip to the range. This will be a test!


By all means recrown. And do it three times taking lighter cuts indicating up each time.

What? You need evidence of leading? :grin: This ain't a handgun.

Remember, you are running a check that, up until it loads up, is going to remove most of the evidence you will be able to see in a LONG, DARK rifle barrel. Don't mean it ain't there. :grin:

[jhalcott]

WHY wouldn't a 12 twist work with a heavy boolit in the 35 whelen?? Are the critters YOU hunt so small you NEED less than MOA accuracy? Yes, YES, I like tiny groups also .But more than a few deer and other animals have died with loads that only get into 2 inch at 100 yard groups!

[felix]

No problem, because a 12 twist will work good indeed, and for the same accuracy! Just a slower boolit, that's all, for the same accuracy. ... felix

[Trailblazer]

Bass,
what velocities are you getting with the above mentioned 4320 and RL-15 loads? Thanks for the help.

jhalcott,
12" twist is fine if that is what you want. I wanted a 14" twist because I believe that is all you need and if it is my dollar I should be able to have a 14" twist!

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,
what velocities are you getting with the above mentioned 4320 and RL-15 loads? Thanks for the help.


TB,

With my 250 grain design and 45 grains I get 2100 from a 24" tube. If I load the 47.5 and use .5CC of PSB, I get 2250. Another gun with a 22" tube is 1950 and 2100 for the same loads.

[felix]

Which gun, John, is more accurate in your hands using those same loads? ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Which gun, John, is more accurate in your hands using those same loads? ... felix


Felix,

More accurate? His was scoped with a 4X12 and mine wears a 2.5 most of the time. I'd say there isn't a spit of difference that you can tell although the accuracy points are about a grain different. Same reamer cut both. Just individual rifles really.

I think RussB has a 26" tube on his and he was right at 47.5 grains, so I suspect he was another 50-100 fps above my figures. What kind of accuracy he finally got, you'd have to ask him.

[RBak]

I think RussB has a 26" tube on his and he was right at 47.5 grains, so I suspect he was another 50-100 fps above my figures. What kind of accuracy he finally got, you'd have to ask him.

FWIW; With the 250gr, and 47.5 gr RL-15 in the 26" tube I only get 2115 fps, and accuracy is 1.5" at best, but 2" is more common... I think it may have something to do with 1:12 twist. I dunnno.
You guys keep telling me the 1:12 is fine, and it will eventually do that magic 1", but again, I dunnno.
I have often wished I had two .35 Whelens. The one I have now, and one with the same length barrel in 1:14 or 1:16. Then I could get this "doubt", if that's what it is, out of my head.
I quite often fire groups with a little 7x57, a 45-70, and occasionally with the .338 that measure 1", or less, so I am sure I am capable of doing it, if the gun / load ever decides things are right, and if I flinch just right, maybe I can get the Whelen to do it also.

As a side note; I've yet to try the 358009. I've been snowed in since I bought the mould.
I've got 20 loaded with 45gr RL-15 and 20 with 47.5 gr. (I am really itching to get the range when all this snow clears.)

Russ...

[felix]

Just curious, John, that's all. It makes no difference anyway, except that circa 22 inches tends to optimize the vibes in free floated barrels. Just wanted some verification. With those big boolits and that case capacity producing that kind of recoil, I don't think you can pinpoint the "gun" accuracy anyway. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Just curious, John, that's all. It makes no difference anyway, except that circa 22 inches tends to optimize the vibes in free floated barrels.


Felix,

Neither of these guns were free floated.

Russ,

Could be the bullet design. All three Whelens I have access to will hold 1" or better when they hit the sweet spot. Is that rifle free floated?

[RBak]

Yes, It is free floated.
In all fairness BA, since you gave me that load of 47.5 RL-15....3,4 or 5 years ago, or whenever it was, I have only dinked around a little bit... up / down with same powder, tried different cases, different primers, but I have never gave that gun all it deserves insofar as real load development. I stayed with the same powder, practically the same load, and that is not a true picture of what it might do.

I have the RCBS 205gr, the SAECO 250gr (actually 252 w/AC wheel weights) and now I have the 358009...By the time summer is here this year, I should know full well what it will, and won't do with all of these weights, because I fully intend to dedicate all my range time to this one rifle.

Russ...

[Bass Ackward]

Your designs that you mention are bore rides.

Bore rides generally have a lower velocity ceiling at the same bullet hardness than a one diameter design of equal weight. Try water dropping a few and see what happens. If they shoot better, then you have your answer.

I will never own a free floated rifle for cast unless that is where it shoots. Too hard to find or make one shoot except at low velocity.

I just worked up a load for my 06 using my 150 grain LBT Spitzer. 52.5 grains of RL15 gives 2810 fps. Best accuracy with that load was just under 2". I increased my bedding pressure from 8 lb to 10 lb and accuracy (with fliers) improved to 7/8". Minus the 3 fliers that I may have had something to do with, accuracy was right at 1/2" for 10 shots. Free floated that would be 4" or more. :grin:

[RBak]

I am going to have Buckshot make me a couple push-thru sizers for my new 358009, and I am going to paper patch that puppy, just for grins and giggles.
I had already planned on water dropping these, when I get that far along.
However, in the meantime, I am going to cast some 250 gr. and water drop them per your suggestion.

Soooo many possibilities, soooo little range time!:(

Whelen Brown says he has pushed the PP load to 2500 fps with absolutely no signs of pressure and, once he hit that 2400 mark, groups started shrinking again. Of course that was in his rifle, and this attempt will be in mine.

BA, Felix, what's your thoughts on groups getting smaller when pushing to the limit?....understanding, of course, the term "limit" is very subjective. (25 to 2600 sounds as though it may be my own limit, although that is strictly guessing on my part as I have never done it....heck, it may be a walk in the park for all I know.)

Russ...

[felix]

Russ, just very simply, GO FOR IT! That 12 twist will teach us a few lessons, hopefully some new ones we don't know anything about. I hope your lands are smooth enough. ... felix