How soon can I shoot em'?

[Themoose]

How soon can I shoot gas checked and sized water quenched WW boolits? 270gr. sized to .432 anticipated velocity around 1800FPS... I've attempted to search, and like anything else, there are different opinions... I've read that water quenched WW achieve their maximum hardness in 24 hrs... others claim it takes longer... I am trying to develop a load and want to try different checks, aluminum and copper, annealed and not... but want to make sure test won't be affected by bullets not reaching their potential hardness...

Next questions... If I oven harden the bullets, how long should I wait to size them and shoot them?

Thanks for your help,

TheMoose

[osteodoc08]

You can shoot em as soon as you load em. If wanting maximum hardness, approx a week or 2 after. If you have a hardness tester, check them periodically to see when the hardness levels out.

What is the reason behind hardening? Harder is not always better, especially with a hunting boolit.

[btroj]

I shoot them when I need to.

While I like to let bullets sit and age a bit if I need them now I use them now. I won't stop shooting because the bullets haven't aged.

[Cmm_3940]

How soon can you shoot them? How soon can you load them?

[Themoose]

The reason for asking is that I want to make sure the hardness is at it's potential to provide accurate info. I am shooting in 44 magnum rifle and am experimenting with crimps. I do not want to deform bullets that haven't hardened to their peak... I'm not looking for a particular BHN that is off the charts.. I think I want to stay around 16-17 BHN to get some expansion.. again I'm looking for stability in testing to remove as many variables as possible. I shot about 35 rounds two days ago and got some very slight leading(not visible to the naked eye, but found very small(pepper flake size) lead fragments when thoroughly cleaning.. 3 patches cleared it out...that's what got me started on wondering about final BHN.

thanks,

TheMoose

[osteodoc08]

The reason for asking is that I want to make sure the hardness is at it's potential to provide accurate info. I am shooting in 44 magnum rifle and am experimenting with crimps. I do not want to deform bullets that haven't hardened to their peak... I'm not looking for a particular BHN that is off the charts.. I think I want to stay around 16-17 BHN to get some expansion.. again I'm looking for stability in testing to remove as many variables as possible. I shot about 35 rounds two days ago and got some very slight leading(not visible to the naked eye, but found very small(pepper flake size) lead fragments when thoroughly cleaning.. 3 patches cleared it out...that's what got me started on wondering about final BHN.

thanks,

TheMoose

That not what I would consider "leading". More than likely powder if pepper like flakes.

Perosnally I wouldnt waste time hardening them. ACWW with a GC are more than sufficient for my loadings to those velocities. Again, fit is king.

But, .......if it makes you feel better, give them a week.

[Greg]

Next questions... If I oven harden the bullets, how long should I wait to size them and shoot them?

Thanks for your help,

TheMoose

TheMoose-

my sizer / luber’s are Lyman 45 (notorious for the weak leverage) so I lessen the strain on them as much as I can

in preparation of oven Heat Treating - I size my as cast boolits as soon after casting as possible (as soon as I can handle them)

I roll the boolits on RCBS lube pad / RCBS case lube and size in push thru die in the press

heat treat as desired

I lube and seat gas check as soon they are dry or with in 12 hours or so.

I used to seat the gas checks before heat treating, but found that the oven temp annealed the gas check (surprise) and I would have gas checks that could turn on the boolits.

I can’t say that I have good enough bench rest technique to see any differences in loose gas checks but, it un-nerved me none the less.

I can tell when I shoot for groups that it takes a while for my alloy to age harden fully.

So I seat GC’s after heat treating.

RCBS case lube stinks when burning off - don’t let wife catch you doing it in the house

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Some one mentioned once that you can speed up the aging process by reheating them to a lower temp,
for a few hours. I cant remember numbers and who it was. I've been setting mine, on a cookie sheet)
on top of the heater I have in the gun room, on of those roll around oil filled radiator looking things.
When they are warm to the touch, I take them off. 2 cycles seems to speed up the aging /stabilizing

[runfiverun]

give them 2 weeks to get to a somewhat stabilized condition.
I have just finished weight sorting this years 30 cal boolits, and I am starting to cast the ones i'll be using next year [2015]

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Themoose,

Not an expert here, but going by what my 45/70 mold maker said, I pass on the following.

He, for his 465gr Wide Flat Nose (WFN) told me to get a Lee style push through die of .460 and run them through that die ASAP after casting.

Gas checks are seated at that time.

The alloy is 50/50 wheel weights/lead and the bullets are water quenched as they drop from the mold.

Bruce (BABor) then said to use a .461 die in the sizer/luber for lubing, which can be done when the mood strikes you at a later time.

Because the luber/sizer die is larger then the push through die, any disturbance to the hardened bullet will be minimal

He said to allow the bullets to age a minimum of 7 days, with 14 days being better.

He also said that he had checked bullet hardness of bullets fresher then the 7 days and the tester said they were good to go.

HOWEVER, he said his rifle told a different story!

Bruce referred me to "Buckshot" here on the forum for the needed push through and sizer/luber die.

Anyway, as said, not an expert here, but everything Bruce recommended up to and including the powder and amount has really proved out with better groups and consistency then anything else I tested.

So, I cast and quench and try to run the bullets through the push through die within 24hrs. then let the bullets set for at least 7 days.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Themoose]

A big thanks to all for sharing your knowledge. It is genuinely appreciated. A guy could really get into this if he had enough time to play!

Thanks again,

TheMoose

[HARRYMPOPE]

Just make sure they are cool enough so they dont sizzle while going though the sizer.A fellow who won many BR matches with cast used to cast the AM before the matches.My best score in a big national match was with 30 cal bullets made the day before.I ran them at 2000 FPS.Age hardening is a non issue most of the time. Few shoot enough groups or have guns capable of telling the difference.

[Green Frog]

I usually try to let mine cool off enough so the lube sticks to them without melting off. Like Tom Selleck once said about aging moonshine (in "The Sacketts") "Aging? We let some age a whole week one time, and I couldn't tell any difference." :D

Froggie

[youngda9]

Shoot them before the expiration date.

[rhead]

For maximum consistency in load testing it is important that they all be either the same age or old enough to have stabilized. Two weeks should get them close enough alike that few shooters can tell the difference. You mentioned sizing them after heat treating. Go ahead and try it and you will understand why most recommend sizing before heat treating.
Others have different ways of doing it but I lube mine with dish washing liquid and water and rinse them and let them dry. Then heat treat if needed and apply gas checks and lube.

[canyon-ghost]

Agreed, 2 weeks to maximum hardness and 2 years to any appreciable softening. That's about what most research comes up with.

[birddog]

Heck ya outta be able to shoot em as soon as the water dries!
Charlie

[Bullshop Junior]

I like to size then as soon as possible. Then sit over night before shooting them

[44man]

Couple days is all. The difference between just hard and a little more will never show up at the target. That BHN stuff is just that---STUFF!
I have loaded the same day and sure can't find a difference with the boolits I cast last year.
Water drop and leave it alone, oven hardening is not needed unless boolits were air cooled with pure lead added. Just for a better grip on rifling.
1800 fps---chicken feed!

[cbrick]

How soon can I shoot gas checked and sized water quenched WW boolits? 270gr. sized to .432 anticipated velocity around 1800FPS... I've attempted to search, and like anything else, there are different opinions... I've read that water quenched WW achieve their maximum hardness in 24 hrs... others claim it takes longer... I am trying to develop a load and want to try different checks, aluminum and copper, annealed and not... but want to make sure test won't be affected by bullets not reaching their potential hardness...

Next questions... If I oven harden the bullets, how long should I wait to size them and shoot them?

Thanks for your help, The Moose

What will determine the time frame to final hardness is the percentage of antimony (Sb). A low Sb will take longer to reach final hardness than will a higher percentage. For all practical purposes CWW alloy will age harden within about three days, it may get a bit harder after that but the difference will be minimal.

The advantage to oven heat treating is two fold. First, you can choose the amount of hardening (final BHN) by the oven temp used. All boolits in that lot heat treated will be a very consistent BHN. With quenching from the mold you get what you get, usually about 17-18 BHN. Second, when quenching from the mold there will always be some variation in BHN between the boolits because mold & alloy temps vary during a casting session plus not all boolits come out of the mold at exactly the same time.

Size after heat treating? You'll only do that once. :mrgreen: Size and gas check before they go in the oven. After heat treating lube with a die .001" larger than the die they were sized with.

Here's an article on heat treating you may find useful. Heat Treating Lead/Antimony/Arsenic Alloys (http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm)

Rick

[Themoose]

Thanks to all...Understanding the way of the cast bullet has a lot more to it that appears from afar... After reading a lot of posts on this forum and asking a number of questions, I am surprised on how lucky I was back when I first started...I have begun to start to document what I am working on so I can better understand what I am really doing... Just this year in the winter layoff, I have learned more about fluxing, temp control and affects and alloys than I knew in the previous 20 years... I even spent some money on a hardness tester and better thermometer... I slugged my rifle barrels and ordered custom mold with appropriate sizers... now the fun begins... putting it all together...It is fun, and keeps me out of the "Mrs.'s" way...

Thanks to all for your help,

TheMoose

[badbob454]

if you want to be particular i would give them 2 weeks , but as they are gas checked , i dont think there would be any difference , not that you could tell..

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Themoose,

Just don't forget to have fun!

Some folk are those that must look at every aspect and in every nook and cranny, the engineer type folk, and if your inflicted with that mind set, go for it.

However, there can be lots of fun and yes success for those of us who shy away from knowing the exact elements our mold or lube is made from.

Just be sure and establish good and well tested bench marks before running off in some other direction.

Without those bench marks, future tests and the results from those tests may be questionable at best and worthless at worse.

For example bullet lube. In the case of handguns at least, there are many concoctions that will work and some quite well. Really not rocket science to get started with any number of lubes that will work. For rifles, and the possibly much higher velocities, it gets more critical. Start with a good commercial product, maybe something like one of the offerings from White Label Lube and if you must, experiment from there.

At the price they sell their quality products, seems hardly worth the effort and yes, I have and have used home brew.

All that to say, if your not having fun you should be and very likely are taking things waaaaaay to seriously.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[runfiverun]

like bass used to say, it only matters when it matters..

I save the technical for when it matters [high velocity/high accuracy]
for just stuff I look at them as I go along and toss back the junk.
that don't mean I don't do a good job or care about them.
I just don't take all the pains and mother over every step.

[btroj]

Bass, now that is a guy I miss.

And he is right, it only matters when it does.