Casting 22 cal

[jm423]

Put this question on another forum, hoping for some additional or second opinions here: Considering casting for 223 Rem (bolt rifle). Just wondering what tricks, pitfalls, etc. I need to know about ahead of time. Have (and do) cast 35 and larger, just never got into anything that small. Will be using COWW, possibly try to find some tin to add. Don't care about whiz-bang performance, 22LR to 22 WMR or + a bit is fine. Your advice/ comments appreciated. And yes, I know that those little bitty boolits and banana sized fingers will be entertaining. Thanks

[CWME]

Keeping the mold hot is the hardest part. Casting faster than your used to will be required to keep the temps up. Pre-heating the mold on a hot plate or the pot is a must. When inspecting your boolits be relentless in your rejects.

I like the 22 cast, I use a fraction of the lead for each shot down range.

What are you planning on shooting them in?

[Garyb]

I cast an NOE 225107 five cavity and a Lyman 225438 two cavity. They both cast good for me. I run the lead a little hotter than normal. I inspected the boolits with a magnifying glass and cull even minor defects. Mainly use them in a hornet and a 22TCM.

[jm423]

Thanks. Probably cast a Lyman 225415, I prefer flatter nose for little more "thump" on critters. Will be shooting a Ruger M77-MK2.

[upnorthwis]

I recently cast .22 for the first time with an RCBS 22-055FP. Was thinking that it would be difficult to keep mold hot but it went better than I thought. And yes you will be busier than a one armed paper hanger. Might want to start with only a couple lb. in pot. I put 5 lb. in pot and several hours later barely had a wrist left to hold mold up.

[jm423]

What are you fellows sizing to? All I see are 0.224 and 0.225 dies, think I'll start at 0.0225 and hope. (Haven't slugged bbl.yet)

[AlaskanGuy]

You Must weight sort for repeatable results... I cast a ton of of boolits, then settle down with a electronic scale and sort the boolits.... Down to the grain... I shoot one weight at a time... If you follow the advice above about casting, and the sorting part, you will have a blast :Fire:

AG

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

when I started casting the 22, I started sizing them at .225

After doing some reading, it seems many size them large.
So, I ordered a couple custom dies 226 and a .227
I was able to custom spec the lube hole size and location,
it made a big difference in successful lubesizing.

as for the target...
I'm just getting there, I plan on testing via trial and error...still in the process.
I sized and lubed these NOE 225-055 FN yesterday. I used an alloy a little better than WW (94-3-3).

as said, sorting out culls is necessary...FOR SURE !

If you're OK with groups 3" or larger at 50 yd, then going without a GC is OK...Lots of newbies ask, So I figured I'd just throw that out there.

If you want 2" groups or less at 100yd, then weigh sorting to .1gr is a must.

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/NOEboolitswith45_zps5c2315cf.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/NOEboolitswith45_zps5c2315cf.jpg.html)

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/NOEboolits_zpscd9cabbd.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/NOEboolits_zpscd9cabbd.jpg.html)

[dtknowles]

You Must weight sort for repeatable results... I cast a ton of of boolits, then settle down with a electronic scale and sort the boolits.... Down to the grain... I shoot one weight at a time... If you follow the advice above about casting, and the sorting part, you will have a blast :Fire:

AG

I disagree, I saw no accuracy improvement with weight sorting. I rejected all bullets with visible defects and then weight sorted those that remained. When I shot groups with the weight sorted bullets the groups were much the same as I was shooting before I sorted the bullets. If the shooter has a gun of great potential and is not getting groups as small as expected then maybe weight sorting would be something to try. My testing was not as scientific as it might have been. I did not shoot the sorted and unsorted groups on the same day. Conditions were different, I did not measure and record the group sizes or velocities. All the groups were in the inch and a quarter to two inch range. The only bullet that this gun shoots into smaller groups is the Hornady 35 gr V-max. I don't know the number for the cast bullet I tested but it is a 45 gr. NOE plain base flat point. I tried bumping the velocity up so it was supersonic all the way to 100 yards but that did not shrink the groups noticeably either. There was a breeze during all the cast bullet testing and I did not use wind flags so the conditions may have masked any improvement from weight sorting but then that will be the case for almost all the shooting so I see no reason to weight sort these bullets.

Tim

[TheCelt]

There is a paper titled "Why Grown Men Cry" By Beagle (of this site) that is a "must read" for anyone casting for the .223. Jim (of Floyd, VA) has also done EXTENSIVE testing and has documented excellent results with the 225415 you mentioned.

I have been shooting an HP version of the 225415 sized .225 and lubed with a mixture of Xlox, Mineral Spirits and Graphite. Last test with 5744 got me right at 1 MOA @ 2100 fps. Jim has done a lot of subsonic testing as well as 22LR/22Mag level loads that are accurate. Do a search for the Floyd Files. Go here for John Goin's (Beagle) articles; http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/castingfellowspage1.htm

Casting for the 223 is a hoot!!!

[AlaskanGuy]

Well Dtknowles must have some sort of magic that he hasn't shared.... Cuz for me, before I started weight sorting, i was all over the place... Once I started weight sorting, thing settled right down.... I would love to be able to skip the sorting, but in every gun i shoot 22 cal out of, 22 jet, 223, and 22-250, they need to be weight sorted for decent grouping at 100 yards, but your mileage may vary.....

AG

[Greg]

jm423-

for the velocities you specified 1000-1500fps do look at an alloy from wheel weights + 2% tin plus an equal weight of pure lead. should result in approximately 8-9 bhn alloy

it will stretch your wheel weights twice as far, and only add a few dollars to your alloy cost.

I think it shoots better at these velocities, also

if your barrel is a little rough, you can heat treat the boolits in an oven at 465º for a half hour then quench in tap (cold) water…size / lube / gas check as soon as dry. result in approximately 15-16 bhn alloy. allow a few weeks to fully harden up.

past summer I mixed this alloy fresh, I had the wheel weights, bought lead pipe and flashing at the recycle place (50¢ per pound) and bought some tin $ 16 per pound. ended up with 100 pounds of very useful alloy for 41¢ a pound.

now once you have your boolits cast…you should (really need to) cull them under a good light. look at them like they owe you money. any flaws is just reason to recycle them next cast.

front band must be perfect, drive bands…perfect !

base, crisp and square !

if not…re-melt them with a vengeance. or cry at your flyer ! your choice !

size to fit the throat, less ½ a thousandth of an inch

you want a M die spud that is .002 smaller than boolit size with a step that is .001 larger than your sized boolit. adjust to accept about ½ of the gas check.

seat them to engrave the front band, no need to crimp.

I shoot lots of these loads, and really like Blue Dot in a .223 16" T/C Contender carbine, along with small pistol primers. I save my Remington 7½’s for when I turn up the velocity / pressure…with a medium burn Rifle powder.

Herco, Green Dot even Unique will also give good service. Jim (in Floyd) has a great read of tests with Bullseye in a .223

This should get you started, at least down the road.

[dtknowles]

Well Dtknowles must have some sort of magic that he hasn't shared.... Cuz for me, before I started weight sorting, i was all over the place... Once I started weight sorting, thing settled right down.... I would love to be able to skip the sorting, but in every gun i shoot 22 cal out of, 22 jet, 223, and 22-250, they need to be weight sorted for decent grouping at 100 yards, but your mileage may vary.....

AG

I will look again for the post where I posted a picture of the weight sorted bullets. The heaviest to the lightest I think was around a grain, I had them sorted by each tenth of a grain. I searched my history in my profile but the post must be too old to show up.

I don't know if I have any magic, I cast them from alloy with about 2 percent Sn and 2 percent Sb. The BHN is 10 to 12 and they are air cooled. I bottom pour out of a Lee pot. It is a NOE three cavity mold. I visually sort the cast bullets and reject any with visible flaws. The lube and size them in a Lyman sizer with .225 inch die. and a home made top punch. I use 50/50 Alox/Beeswax lube. I have also used the bullets unsized and pan or finger lubed. I cast fast with a large sprue in batches many here would think are small. I don't find the 1.25 to 2.0 inch 100 yard groups great but they are good enough for me for that gun.

Tim

[dtknowles]

This text is from a thread by Goodsteel called "How consistent are you The picture did not come across but very few of the sorted bullet were more than a few tenths of a grain from the average.

"I weighed the rest of a batch of 22 bullets I cast most recently, a few hundred of them are already loaded in .22 Hornet ahead of a light load of Green Dot to be used as .22 RF replacement ammo. I have shot maybe 40 of them already that I loaded to two different overall lengths. The shorter ones shot better so that is how I loaded the few hundred I put on the shelf.
Click image for larger version. Name: IMG_20131225_162705.jpg Views: 21 Size: 46.5 KB ID: 91579
I will toss the low weight ones. Clearly not a bell curve but a strong peak around 43.7 / 43.8 gr.

There might have been some low weight bullets in the ones I tested and on my shelf but the load tested was acceptable to me, IIRC they shot under a inch at 50 yards for 5 shot groups from my Ruger #3. These were loaded unsized (dropped .226 to .227), pan lubed 50/50, in unsized brass. The bullets are probably harder than need be as I cast them from my approximation of Lyman #2 (mixture of range scrap, monotype and Tin solder) I used a Lee 5# bottom pour pot that most times drips and for this mold I poured on the edge of the sprue hole/plate not right in the hole and leave a large sprue. It is a three cavity mold."

Tim

[Wally]

dtknowles, I agree with you. I shoot the RCBS 55 SP-GC and the Lyman 225462. I never weigh/sort them...even use aluminum Freechecs GCs... I cull out out those with visible defects... I shoot in Rem 700's....a .223 Rem and a .22-250 Rem w/ 8.0 grains of Unique. I find one has to load long so that the bullet is on the leade. Accuracy is very good, but past 100 yards much more wind sensitive than larger calibers. I also shoot a .243 Win with cast and it does much better under windy conditions.




I disagree, I saw no accuracy improvement with weight sorting. I rejected all bullets with visible defects and then weight sorted those that remained. When I shot groups with the weight sorted bullets the groups were much the same as I was shooting before I sorted the bullets. If the shooter has a gun of great potential and is not getting groups as small as expected then maybe weight sorting would be something to try. My testing was not as scientific as it might have been. I did not shoot the sorted and unsorted groups on the same day. Conditions were different, I did not measure and record the group sizes or velocities. All the groups were in the inch and a quarter to two inch range. The only bullet that this gun shoots into smaller groups is the Hornady 35 gr V-max. I don't know the number for the cast bullet I tested but it is a 45 gr. NOE plain base flat point. I tried bumping the velocity up so it was supersonic all the way to 100 yards but that did not shrink the groups noticeably either. There was a breeze during all the cast bullet testing and I did not use wind flags so the conditions may have masked any improvement from weight sorting but then that will be the case for almost all the shooting so I see no reason to weight sort these bullets.

Tim

[bayjoe]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that uses a magnifying glass to sort bullets.

[Wayne S]

Two thinks to find out before buying any mold;
1. confirm the twist in your barrel, then see what length bullet works best
http://kwk.us/twist.html
2. Slug your barrels chamber throat, use an egg sinker, borrow a few as cast 22 bullets, just get a good dia. on the throat and size to that Dia.

[bangerjim]

I have found after casting over 1500 .224's last month with a Lee 6 banger, pressure casting is the ONLY way to do it! Perfect fills every time. Normal lead temp.

They are very small! I powder coat them and use a jig that the GC area fits down into a fender washer of appropriate size with NS foil covering the whole thing.

They cast, coat and shoot very well. I load them to use as 22LR type shooting as well as higher rifle loads with Cu GC's installed.

banger

[dale2242]

I thought all old blind guys used lighted magnifying glass to sort boolits.
I certainly do....dale

[JeffinNZ]

I agree with jm423 on the flat nose for knock down.

I am sizing .2255 for my .223 Rem 700 with good results.

Regarding sort/weighing; if 1.5-2.0 MOA is a range you can live with then go for it. I firmly believe to get closer to MOA manic sorting/weighing is required. Ask the boys that win at the CBA matches.

[TheCelt]

I weight sort mine. I load and shoot Boolits that are plus or minus .1gr from the target weight. That gives me a spread of .3gr total for the load. I also weigh each propellant charge as well. I have to do something to make up for my bad eye sight!!!

[CWME]

jm423-

now once you have your boolits cast…you should (really need to) cull them under a good light. look at them like they owe you money. any flaws is just reason to recycle them next cast.

front band must be perfect, drive bands…perfect !

base, crisp and square !

if not…re-melt them with a vengeance. or cry at your flyer ! your choice !

size to fit the throat, less ½ a thousandth of an inch

you want a M die spud that is .002 smaller than boolit size with a step that is .001 larger than your sized boolit. adjust to accept about ½ of the gas check.

seat them to engrave the front band, no need to crimp.

I shoot lots of these loads, and really like Blue Dot in a .223 16" T/C Contender carbine, along with small pistol primers. I save my Remington 7½’s for when I turn up the velocity / pressure…with a medium burn Rifle powder.

Herco, Green Dot even Unique will also give good service. Jim (in Floyd) has a great read of tests with Bullseye in a .223

This should get you started, at least down the road.


Great post! Brings up some very good points with the .22 cast that I have found. The Lyman M die really helps with the loads being consistant. Also with sizing I found that unless I water dropped the boolits I would distort them with the nose punch no matter what I did. I went to using my push through Star sizer at .225 so I could use air cooled and things got better. I tried .224 in the lyman sizer but kept mashing the noses down, water dropped, linotype, didn't matter. Never bothered to spend the $ for a .224 star sizer. The little boolits couldn't handle the stress for me so gave up.

As for weighing, depends on what your doing with them. Punching holes in cans or shooting skeets at 50 yards, not for me. Ringing out the best accuracy, you bet. I typically do the visual inspection, load my test loads up and shoot. Your going to see what loads are good and bad without investing the time to weight sort. Once I close in on some good loads I sort by weight for final tuning.

Some of my best groups have been with the NOE copy of the RCBS 55GR FP. Great boolit! I like the 225462 as well but the nose on mine is a bit fat for my custom .223 target rifle. The 62 gr NOE Eagan MX-3 is a good shooter in my 1-12 twist Ruger MK-II target. It is too long to stabilize in my 1-14 twist Savage target setup however.

I have a thread I did from a few years ago, should be able to find it in my started threads on my profile.

[JeffinNZ]

I made my own M die. M dies make a HUGE difference.

[runfiverun]

M-dies help control the neck tension.
I have never used an M-die, i take other steps to control the neck tension...
just about every production 22 cal rifle I have ever looked at will accept a 227 boolit before it makes rough contact with the throat/leade area.

HMMM, look at them like they owe you money [where have I heard that before :lol:]

[trapper9260]

What I do is for each batch I cast i keep it apart from the other.I do 22 and use it in my 22-250 and at 50yrds i have a 3/4 patten and I only weight the first 2 bullets and size them to .225 and it is a lyman mold I use and I know i can go further then I did the test with but.I do not worry much about the weight but how i load them.It is to be a 55gr mold but I have them drop at 60gr..I also GC them also.But when I did cast them I did what others have stated keep the mold hot and cast as fast as the alloy harden up to remove and move on .Also pre heat with a hot plate helps alot.

[jm423]

Thanks to all for your great advice! Based on reading "- - - - admit defeat?" on previous, I am about to think maybe be I would be well served to go step-wise--i.e. try 30 cal or 7mm first. BTW, I am not exactly a newbie--started casting for 357 and 44 mag in the 1960's, and as far as I am concerned, any boollit other than the RCBS 358-200FN, for the 35 Rem, is a waste of time and resources. My Marlin 336 Microgroove does better with that one than any thing else, jaxketed or not, that I have put through it. Thanks again, I'll be around. BTW, Please don't consider this a smart- - - reply, I should have laid more groundwork earlier.

[robroy]

I've got 2 22 molds: Lyman 225462 and Lyman 225415. Both are checked. So far best accuracy in my Ruger 77/22hornet has been with the 225462 sized 225, checked with Hornady checks, and tumble lubed with Lee Liquid Alox (LLA). I preheat the molds on a hot plate and heat the pot to about 725F. As soon as the sheen on the sprue dulls I twist the sprue plate and drop the boolits.
I'm getting about 2" @ 100yds using Win brass, small pistol magnum primers (it's what I had at the time), and 4198.
I find it a bit strange to cast sprues that weigh more than the boolits.

[Pakprotector]

I have just been playing with a 225353 that runs between .2225 and .224 on the last drive band( cigarette paper would beagle this one round if I can get it to stay put ). I run these of 2% tin/98% Lead and spit them out at 950 with a Benjamin Marauder air rifle running a TJ 14" twist liner. I just got a 1", 10 shot group at 75 yards with it out in the cold. I know it can do better...even with those boolits. If I had a 12" twist, I would run the 55 gr MX3 at about the same velocity I hope. Love those tapered, nose riding boolits. I think the next mold I will hunt up is a 50 gr, 225415 or maybe, just to be sure a 22596...:)
cheers,
Douglas

[leadman]

I have been shooting the Lyman 46gr RN GC for many years in my 22K Hornet and now in my Contender 23' bull barrel. I recently added the Lee Bator that is supposed to be 55gr but dressed it is only 50grs.
It is not uncommon for me to shoot groups less than 1" at 100 yards with the K Hornet at various velocities up to 2,700 fps. After that accuracy degrades.
I cast with linotype and now use Hi-Tek Red Copper coating, size to .225". When testing the Bator in the Contender I decided to see how fast I could push it before leading occurred. I heat treated the lino type and used a modified baking to retain most of the bhn with the end result being 32bhn. If you heat treat the lino and use aluminum gas checks seat the gas checks before heat treating. I had the aluminum extrude down the side of the Lee push thru rod. I got to 3,619 fps for a 5 shot average with group size of 2.9" at 100 yards with no leading. I could get no more H4895 in the case and still start the boolit. Don't recommend doing this but I had about .0005" more case expansion than with factory ammo and some roundness to the sides of the primers.

For plinking loads I weigh to a .5gr spread and for target work usually .2gr spread. I use lino exclusively just because it fills out so well and reduces the culls.