45/70 405 grain Lee bullet dilemma

[762X51]

Well since this is my first post let me say thanks for having me and I look forward to learning some things from all you smart folks. Here's to hoping you can help me solve a cast bullet conundrum. With the recent problems finding jacketed bullets for various bottleneck rifle cartridges I decided I needed me a nice rifle that fired a straight walled cartridge that would allow me to load up or down with jacketed or lead and essentially be useful for everything from targets to T-Rexs so I decided on what else but the 45/70. In part this decision was made because I found a new stainless Ruger Number 1 sitting on a dealer's shelf at a price I couldn't afford to pass up. And thus began the problems. I immediately ordered up some brass and a Lee 90374 mold that produces the classic 405 grain 45/70 projectile. I fired up the lead pot and poured up about 150 of these. I don't know why I didn't just go to loading but I instead made up a dummy round to try in the rifle. It's a good thing I did or I'd be pulling a bunch of bullets. This particular projectile will not allow the cartridge to seat! This is the first 45/70 I've loaded for and I understand that the SAAMI specs for the chamber in a 45/70 actually has no throat... the rifling basically starts where the case mouth ends. It appears that the ogive of this particular projectile is such that it engages the rifling long before the cartridge is fully seated into the chamber. It's impossible to chamber a cartridge loaded with this bullet. The bullet must be loaded into the case about .210” BEYOND the crimp groove to get a cartridge that will chamber. I've run into this problem once before with a .357 Magnum TC Encore MGM carbine barrel (again a chambering without a throat) so cast semi wadcutters would not chamber for anything. So I guess my questions are, why don't these idiot gunmakers put a throat in the chambers of rifles using straight walled cases and more importantly am I assessing this situation correctly; that the blunter ogive of this particular bullet is the problem since other 405 grain projectiles in factory loads work just fine in this rifle??? I contacted Lee and explained my dilemma and they told me they have made this mold for more than 40 years and I'm the first one to have problems with it. Am I REALLY to only person to cast and load this bullet in a SAAMI spec'ed, no throated chamber in 40 years??? Has NOBODY else loaded this bullet in a 45/70 case and tried to chamber it in a Ruger No. 1??? Any light that y'all may shed on this problem will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[CPL Lou]

I had decided that since I was becoming a huge fan of the 45-70, I would invest in a throat reamer. I've used it on 2 H&R's and on my #1. Not hard to use, just go slow.
A couple of turns, check cartridge fit, etc.
I got mine through Brownells. To use it on my #1, I had to use a drill bit extension.
Go slow and use plenty of cutting oil ! I cleaned from the muzzle before resuming cutting to make sure the chips didn't bugger up my chamber.
Hope this helps !

CPL Lou

[NSB]

You didn't say what rifle you have. Is it a Winchester/Miroku? I have two of these guns, an 1886 and an 1885 and both would not chamber a correct COL cartridge. I ended up taking the guns to a gunsmith (actually Turnbull Mfg.) and having them run their reamer into the gun. Using the reamer they used on all their 45-70s ended up adding around 200 thousandths to the throat. Not a misprint, 200/1000ths. When I picked up the first gun I asked how many thousandths they took out of the gun. They replied, "it would be easier to talk inches instead of thousandths". Even at that, using Rem 405g JSP, I only have 19/1000 before the bullet hits the rifling. I'd suggest you get the gun reamed. FYI...it shoots as good now as it did before having it done. I can now use any bullet I choose and it will chamber.

[762X51]

Thanks Lou. Is this the reamer you used? Does it also cut a leade?
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/barrel-blanks-tools/reamers/throating-reamers/throating-reamers-prod40868.aspx?avs|Caliber_1=BBC_45%20Caliber%20%2 8xzzx451-xzzx454%29

[mpmarty]

Ruger chambers are not standard as are Marlins and 1886s. They have what Ruger calls a ball seat and thus your problem. Solution is indeed a chamber reamer or trade it off for a "REAL" 45/70.

[762X51]

NSB, I believe that .200 would be about right based on my measurements. Since a 45/70 SAAMI chamber has no throat then .200 should provide clearance for just about any projectile. I realize it was a long post but somewhere in there I did mention I have a Ruger No. 1. Thanks for the info. That's a very interesting story about your rifles.

[762X51]

Ruger chambers are not standard as are Marlins and 1886s. They have what Ruger calls a ball seat and thus your problem. Solution is indeed a chamber reamer or trade it off for a "REAL" 45/70.

Marty my understanding is that Ruger uses the SAAMI specs for their 45/70 chambers. As far as a "ball seat" I thought that was a term that was actually used interchangeably with the term throat when referring to the area just ahead of the cartridge case in a revolver cylinder. I've never heard the term ball seat used to describe a rifle chamber throat but then again I learn something new every day. I've got to ask though, what's a "real" 45/70???

[CPL Lou]

Thanks Lou. Is this the reamer you used? Does it also cut a leade?
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/barrel-blanks-tools/reamers/throating-reamers/throating-reamers-prod40868.aspx?avs|Caliber_1=BBC_45%20Caliber%20%2 8xzzx451-xzzx454%29

That's the one.
It's made to taper the lead too. Don't know what the angle is, but it does the job without having to go to far with it.

CPL Lou

[aspangler]

You can also order a reamer from Rena Reamer or Elk Ridge Reamers. I rented mine from Ek\lk Ridge and for the price (about 35 dollars) it was shipped to me in sfrb with return flat rate box included. This would save you some money and they are good to work with. JMHO

[mpmarty]

Marty my understanding is that Ruger uses the SAAMI specs for their 45/70 chambers. As far as a "ball seat" I thought that was a term that was actually used interchangeably with the term throat when referring to the area just ahead of the cartridge case in a revolver cylinder. I've never heard the term ball seat used to describe a rifle chamber throat but then again I learn something new every day. I've got to ask though, what's a "real" 45/70???

That info is from my latest Speer manual/ directly referring to the Ruger single shot 45/70s as not having a standard chamber.

[sleeper1428]

Your problem is interesting considering the fact that I use that same Lee 405gr boolit in my Ruger #1 without any problem in seating the cartridge. I also use the Lee 340gr boolit which is the same profile as the 405gr, just shorter and lighter, and I crimp both boolits right in the crimp groove. Now, I should say that my Ruger #1 was purchased over 20 years ago so the company may have changed the chamber profile meaning that there may now be no direct comparison between how our two rifles handle the same boolit and cartridge OAL. I also cast and shoot the RCBS 405gr GC boolit which has a decidedly wider front driving band in front of the crimp groove and I've never had a problem with seating cartridges assembled with this boolit. So this may well be a problem related to some change made by Ruger in how they now cut the chamber and throat area as opposed to how they used to do this in past years.

sleeper1428

[762X51]

Your problem is interesting considering the fact that I use that same Lee 405gr boolit in my Ruger #1 without any problem in seating the cartridge. I also use the Lee 340gr boolit which is the same profile as the 405gr, just shorter and lighter, and I crimp both boolits right in the crimp groove. Now, I should say that my Ruger #1 was purchased over 20 years ago so the company may have changed the chamber profile meaning that there may now be no direct comparison between how our two rifles handle the same boolit and cartridge OAL. I also cast and shoot the RCBS 405gr GC boolit which has a decidedly wider front driving band in front of the crimp groove and I've never had a problem with seating cartridges assembled with this boolit. So this may well be a problem related to some change made by Ruger in how they now cut the chamber and throat area as opposed to how they used to do this in past years.

sleeper1428

Thanks Sleeper, that is very useful information. It appears that Lee uses the same ogive profile on all their 45/70 bullets except the 405 hollow base and the 5003R. It looks like any bullet I wish to shoot in my Number 1 had better have a strong taper starting at the case mouth. I'm a little disappointed in Ruger since this severely limits my choice of bullets unless I opt to ream a proper throat in my rifle. Thanks again for the very helpful information.

[762X51]

That info is from my latest Speer manual/ directly referring to the Ruger single shot 45/70s as not having a standard chamber.

Thanks Marty! Is that from the Speer 14 manual? I don't have that one...now I have an excuse to get it.

[DrCaveman]

If factory rounds chamber fine, maybe there is a diameter problem here
Have you mic'ed the lee 405's to see how large that nose is?
If it were oversize by a few thousandths, I could imagine difficult chambering

Especially odd since other shooters of the same make & model are not reporting similar problems
Lee's response also seemed a little odd. Has SAAMI recently changed their spec, or have gun makers just been ignoring it for the last half century? What about old buffalo hunters?

Interesting situation overall, best of luck

[Doc Highwall]

I would look at the cheapest thing first the LEE mould. As mentioned what are the bullets measurements out of the mould?

[NSB]

If factory rounds chamber fine, maybe there is a diameter problem here
Have you mic'ed the lee 405's to see how large that nose is?
If it were oversize by a few thousandths, I could imagine difficult chambering

Especially odd since other shooters of the same make & model are not reporting similar problems
Lee's response also seemed a little odd. Has SAAMI recently changed their spec, or have gun makers just been ignoring it for the last half century? What about old buffalo hunters?

Interesting situation overall, best of luck

They've been ignoring it. The SAMMI spec is correct, there is no throat in this caliber if made to spec. That's why both Winchester/Miroku's have been a problem, they were made to spec.

[largom]

Pacific Tool & Gauge can provide you a throating reamer with the leade and diameter of your choice. They also come with a "T" handle for hand use. I have several and they work great, also nice people to deal with.

Larry

[762X51]

If factory rounds chamber fine, maybe there is a diameter problem here
Have you mic'ed the lee 405's to see how large that nose is?
If it were oversize by a few thousandths, I could imagine difficult chambering

Especially odd since other shooters of the same make & model are not reporting similar problems
Lee's response also seemed a little odd. Has SAAMI recently changed their spec, or have gun makers just been ignoring it for the last half century? What about old buffalo hunters?

Interesting situation overall, best of luck

It is indeed an interesting situation. It's obvious that the ogival profile of this bullet is rounder or fuller than say the factory Winchester 405s. It is visually obvious that the bullet Winchester uses has a steeper taper than the Lee projectile. The SAAMI drawings indicate no throat as the word is usually meant but a 69/1000", 12 degree taper just forward of the end of the cartridge case (this may be the ball seat that Marty spoke of). Best I can deduce is that if the ogive of a bullet falls outside the imaginary lines created by continuing the 12 degree angle forward of the chamber then the bullet ogive will not clear the rifling (the point within the orange circle) to allow seating of the cartridge in the chamber (as illustrated by the bullet profile in blue). If a bullet's ogive falls within that 12 degree angle there is clearance allowing chambering (as illustrated by the bullet profile in green) Apparently the ogive of this particular Lee bullet falls outside that 12 degree boundary allowing it to contact the rifling and prevent chambering. The particular point of contact, where this bullet contacts the rifling is .453", which is larger than bore diameter which means it's going to contact the rifling. The .453 diameter is not really the problem but WHERE this .453' dimension is located along the bullet's length. If it were within that short .069, 12 degree angled section of the chamber and fell away at an angle greater than 12 degrees then all would be well. As for the old buffalo hunters, it looks like the 405 hollow base bullet Lee makes molds for did in fact have a steeper ogive and allowed for clearance of the rifling. As it stands now the best summation I can make is that the ogive on the Lee 405 is too blunt and of insufficient angle to allow the projectile to clear the rifling assuming a rifle has a chamber cut to current SAAMI dimensions. This doesn't explain why others with the same rifle can chamber this projectile though unless Ruger has changed the way they chamber the 45/70. The quest for knowledge is ongoing though. Thanks very much for your contribution to this mystery.

http://i59.tinypic.com/6h88qu.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2a60dqh.jpg

[762X51]

Pacific Tool & Gauge can provide you a throating reamer with the leade and diameter of your choice. They also come with a "T" handle for hand use. I have several and they work great, also nice people to deal with.

Larry

Thanks Larry! I've already sent an email to PT&G asking but since you've already done this exactly which reamer did you use? I see they offer a 45-70 throating reamer and what they call their Uni Throater in .458??? I really can't make heads or tails of their descriptions.

[DrCaveman]

To add another potential oddball into this situation, i found some interesting things mic'ng my lee 340 gr and 405 gr cast within the last few weeks

For the 405 gr, i found no location on any boolit forward of the front drive band that was larger than .4497". The drive band itself was close to .457" all the way around. So based on the numbers, ill bet MY boolit cast from MY mold, with MY alloy and run at MY temp would chamber in your gun.

Flip side: my 340 gr mold shows a diameter range of .451-4525" in front of the drive band. Drive band itself is close to .458". So i bet this one would NOT chamber in your gun. Im pretty sure that the temp & alloy can be considered the same as my other boolit, but ill admit there are some fluctuations. I basically mess around until the mold is working well

Maybe...try another lee 45-70 mold? I think we may be seeing some mfgr variation or even mold & temp variation. Try more pure lead and hotter temps?

Pm me i can send a dozen of my 405 boolits (unsized, unlubed) and maybe the mystery can get closer to solved...

[762X51]

To add another potential oddball into this situation, i found some interesting things mic'ng my lee 340 gr and 405 gr cast within the last few weeks

For the 405 gr, i found no location on any boolit forward of the front drive band that was larger than .4497". The drive band itself was close to .457" all the way around. So based on the numbers, ill bet MY boolit cast from MY mold, with MY alloy and run at MY temp would chamber in your gun.

Flip side: my 340 gr mold shows a diameter range of .451-4525" in front of the drive band. Drive band itself is close to .458". So i bet this one would NOT chamber in your gun. Im pretty sure that the temp & alloy can be considered the same as my other boolit, but ill admit there are some fluctuations. I basically mess around until the mold is working well

Maybe...try another lee 45-70 mold? I think we may be seeing some mfgr variation or even mold & temp variation. Try more pure lead and hotter temps?

Pm me i can send a dozen of my 405 boolits (unsized, unlubed) and maybe the mystery can get closer to solved...

Thanks for the kind offer to send some of your bullets but I just ordered one of the Lee 5003R molds and I'm betting the nose profile of that bullet will allow it to chamber. Even if I were able to adjust the alloy or temperature to get .003" shrinkage to allow the ogive of the 405 to clear the rifling the bullet would then be too undersized at the driving bands. I'm beginning to think that the best solution to this problem is cutting a proper throat and leade in this rifle then it'd shoot any bullet with any nose profile from 340s to the 500+s. I'd be VERY curious to see a chamber cast of a Marlin lever gun to see just what kind of Frankenstein throat/funnel they use since I never really hear of anybody having issues with chambering anything in those as long as the OAL is proper for functioning. Thanks again for your offer and your ideas!

[Slinger]

I've got a #1 that's fussy as to what bullet it'll chamber without seating it deeper. The Lee mold mold you refer to is one of them. There's nothing wrong with your rifle. Seat the boolits deeper until they're just where you want them (barely touching the rifling or a little jump). If a particular bullet has to be seated beyond the crimp groove and you want to crimp, buy a LEE Factory Crimp Die for the 45-70. It works well. I wouldn't get into throating until I see what the rifle will do. Just my 2 cents......................

[762X51]

I've got a #1 that's fussy as to what bullet it'll chamber without seating it deeper. The Lee mold mold you refer to is one of them. There's nothing wrong with your rifle. Seat the boolits deeper until they're just where you want them (barely touching the rifling or a little jump). If a particular bullet has to be seated beyond the crimp groove and you want to crimp, buy a LEE Factory Crimp Die for the 45-70. It works well. I wouldn't get into throating until I see what the rifle will do. Just my 2 cents......................

Ahh ha, so it's not just me! I've ordered the 500 grain mold and will try it since it looks to have a sharper ogive. I'll also try the 405 again seated to where it'll chamber. I think you are right in that I'll try to find a solution that works with the rifle as it is before bailing off into throating. It is a shame however that gunmakers don't see the value in adding a proper throat to a chamber ESPECIALLY in a single shot rifle where OAL in not as critical as in a repeater. Thanks for the information.

[Slinger]

No Problem.....Glad I could help. Here's a list of bullets I've worked with for chambering in my #1. I suspect you'll encounter the same.
Lee 340 gr.- OK seated in crimp groove
Lee 405 gr - Must be seated deeper than crimp groove.....OAL of 2.480" or maybe less.
Lee 450 gr. - OK seated in crimp groove
Lyman #457193 - Both versions seat OK in crimp groove (base is shorter on one mold-ogive the same.). I don't know about current production molds.
RCBS 405 gr GC- OK, just touches rifling when seated in crimp groove.

I have no idea as to accuracy/loads as I'm just getting started with this rifle as I got it a couple months ago. If you run into problems with accuracy, look at the forend bearing on the barrel first. Once again, save the throating for a last resort.
From what I've read, some #1s shoot better with the bullet just kissing the rifling. Remains to be seen..............

[DrCaveman]

So it sounds like Slingers molds are dropping different than mine. Im fairly sure the lee 340 and the lee 405 are SUPPOSED to possess the same nose profile ahead of the front drive band.

Youre probably on the right track with the lee 500, but id bet $20 (the cost of another Lee 2-cavity) that if you tried the boolits from another Lee 340 or 405 that they might fit. Noone has ever accused Lee of perfect quality control.

[Slinger]

So it sounds like Slingers molds are dropping different than mine. Im fairly sure the lee 340 and the lee 405 are SUPPOSED to possess the same nose profile ahead of the front drive band.

Youre probably on the right track with the lee 500, but id bet $20 (the cost of another Lee 2-cavity) that if you tried the boolits from another Lee 340 or 405 that they might fit. Noone has ever accused Lee of perfect quality control.

You're no doubt correct in your assumption........I'd still just seat the 405 gr. deeper. Oh by the way, DrCaveman, one other thing......when you slug the bore of your #1 you'll probably find it @ .459". Might be a tight spot at the front sight down to .458" I'm sizing to .460". Problem is the Lee molds drop smaller. I use HVAC tape to "Beagle" the mold. Sometimes it's a pain as the tape will come off while casting, but it's a simple solution that works, if only a temporary one. Lyman molds need "Beagled" as well if you're using 16:1 or 20:1 alloy. Find out what bullet shoots the best and have Accurate make you up a mold to drop the proper size bullet. That's my plan.

[mpmarty]

Thanks Marty! Is that from the Speer 14 manual? I don't have that one...now I have an excuse to get it.
No, it is from Speer number thirteen. Page 416

[DLCTEX]

Another possible solution would be to use the Lee. 457 size die to size the nose only and make the nose ride the bore. The boolit would have to be pushed back out of the size die. Or use mould release on the nose portion of the mould thick enough to reduce the diameter. I personally would go with the reamer so I could use whatever boolit I wanted .

[Slinger]

I'd venture to say that the Lee 405 gr. is the only one that won't chamber when using the crimp groove, from what I've seen so far. I think the Lyman 457193 is a bit better choice anyway, but I guess it's all in what you want or more like what the gun will shoot accurately. For now I'm concentrating on the 457193. If it doesn't work out accuracy-wise, I try the smaller height base 457193 I have. I'll save the Lee for last. Heck, the Lee 340 gr might turn out to be a top performer in the #1, who knows. Then there's the custom molds. Rifles are like.....well never mind. Better not go there.

[Boogieman]

I just made a trial round to check in my #1 Ruger used a Lee 405gr. bullet seated to the crimp groove, 2.550 OAL. It fell right into my chamber. Bullet mic'es .458 on the drive band & .447 on the nose. Have you checked the nose dia. of your bullet?

[giz189]

I just made a trial round to check in my #1 Ruger used a Lee 405gr. bullet seated to the crimp groove, 2.550 OAL. It fell right into my chamber. Bullet mic'es .458 on the drive band & .447 on the nose. Have you checked the nose dia. of your bullet?. What Boogie man said. 2.550 is recommended in rifle without throat. I believe from what I have read, that is the way the chambers were cut originally for gg boolit. That is the length I had to use in my h and r 1871 also. Chamber cast showed no throat. Really not something gun makers are doing. I believe it was originally designed that way. My .02 worth anyway.

[Boogieman]

seat a bullet backward in an empty case, seat it long, keep trying it seating a little shorter at a time till it will chamber. that will give you the max. throat length . anything longer than that will have to be less than bore dia. I think some Lee molds have a fat nose.

[Slinger]

seat a bullet backward in an empty case, seat it long, keep trying it seating a little shorter at a time till it will chamber. that will give you the max. throat length . anything longer than that will have to be less than bore dia. I think some Lee molds have a fat nose.

Agreed!

[Boogieman]

Ruger cuts their throats for jacketed boolits. & factory amo. These leave little full dia. bullet out of the case. This is done to shorten the jump into the rifling . Cast boolit shooters can either find boolits that work or recut the throat. Many old 45-70's were bored loose which allowed larger boolit noses, Mfgs. mess with specs. all the time ,look at the short 45-70 cases one company is using & still marking them 45-70.

[Slinger]

Ruger cuts their throats for jacketed boolits. & factory amo. These leave little full dia. bullet out of the case. This is done to shorten the jump into the rifling . Cast boolit shooters can either find boolits that work or recut the throat. Many old 45-70's were bored loose which allowed larger boolit noses, Mfgs. mess with specs. all the time ,look at the short 45-70 cases one company is using & still marking them 45-70.

Not picking an argument mind you, but do you know that for a fact Ruger cuts their throats in the #1 45-70 for jktd stuff? According to what I've read Ruger uses the ballseat type throat in the #1, which harkens back to the Trapdoor days and lead bullets. I don't remember where I read that or possibly misread it. Maybe I'm mistaken, here. I don't believe that the Lee is an original design for the 45-70 like the Lyman 457193 or even the 457125. Perhaps the Lee 405 gr is a hybrid of the original and Lee's modifications that suited him. Or just poor QC if one mold will produce bullets that chamber fine when seated to its crimp groove and another mold, same design won't. So, to me it's still an easy solution to just seat it deeper & if you want a crimp, use the Lee 45-70 crimp die. Some prefer to just touch the rifling..... Eventually I'll get around to working with the Lee 405 gr to see how it'll shoot in my #1.

[Doc Highwall]

If I recall correctly the LEE bullet design came from J. S. Wolf's book "Reloading Cartridges for the Original 45-70 Springfield Rifle & Carbine" from research he did from the Springfield Armory records and LEE made the bullet to those specifications.

http://www.4570book.info/

http://www.amazon.com/Loading-cartridges-original-Springfield-carbine/dp/157579019X

[Boogieman]

Not picking an argument mind you, but do you know that for a fact Ruger cuts their throats in the #1 45-70 for jktd stuff? According to what I've read Ruger uses the ballseat type throat in the #1, which harkens back to the Trapdoor days and lead bullets. I don't remember where I read that or possibly misread it. Maybe I'm mistaken, here. I don't believe that the Lee is an original design for the 45-70 like the Lyman 457193 or even the 457125. Perhaps the Lee 405 gr is a hybrid of the original and Lee's modifications that suited him. Or just poor QC if one mold will produce bullets that chamber fine when seated to its crimp groove and another mold, same design won't. So, to me it's still an easy solution to just seat it deeper & if you want a crimp, use the Lee 45-70 crimp die. Some prefer to just touch the rifling..... Eventually I'll get around to working with the Lee 405 gr to see how it'll shoot in my #1.
Yep Lee's QC. If 762X52 seated his boolit .210" deeper as He said it had to be to chamber He would be trying to crimp on the boolit nose about 1/2 to the end. No need to crimp for a SS rifle unless you need it to help the powder burn.

[Slinger]

If I recall correctly the LEE bullet design came from J. S. Wolf's book "Reloading Cartridges for the Original 45-70 Springfield Rifle & Carbine" from research he did from the Springfield Armory records and LEE made the bullet to those specifications.

http://www.4570book.info/

http://www.amazon.com/Loading-cartridges-original-Springfield-carbine/dp/157579019X

I've got an 1884 Trapdoor. With the Lee 405 gr. seated to the crimp groove, chambering a round will put the ogive into the rifling. The unfired round can be extracted normally. The marks from the rifling are readily visible, but there's no undue force to chamber, so the bullet is "kissing" the rifling. Might have been something lost in translation on when the S.A. specs. were reviewed. What bullets of the era that I've seen in photos look nothing like the Lee 405 gr. That's not to say they don't exist. I've got a box of Frankford Arsenal 45-70 ammo, however the bullets aren't even close to resembling the Lee 405 gr. Mine are 1893-1897 vintage. I'm assuming they are 405 gr., but I don't know that for sure and I don't want to pull one to find out.

[HeavyMetal]

762x51:
your response from Lee when you called mimic's several response's I've had when contacting them about products that were not quite up to snuff, at least for me. Pretty much Lee is perfect you must be doing something wrong!

Others have recently posted much nicer things have happened with Lee, and it is about time! I will also admit it's been a bunch of years since I had the need to call Lee about a product, if it's not right it is fixed, returned or sold off.

My last was a 44-310 grain mold that was cut way to large for the gas check, a brief time spent in the mill made it a plain based mold and it worked well from then on.

So now that I've said all this I'll come right out and say it: your Lee mold is the most likely problem and you need to check the diamensions carefully.

As has been already posted Lee's QC is hit and miss. I will also point out a GB for a H&G 68 copy, run here, was rejected not once but twice, because they wouldn't follow the drawing sent for the mold design.

I also saw the rejected 6 cavity molds on sale in there closout section, with no explanation as to way they were "clearenced"!

Go check your mold!

As for the rifle? Shoot it as it sits for no other reason than to establish a baseline to judge improvements, or not, in future modifications, load development and boolit performance.

Be aware the fore end is the weak point in a Number 1 and setting up the hanger system correctly will yield great imporvements in accuracy.

[Boogieman]

I have a Lee # 90375 450gr. mold ,same as# 90374 but nose is longer. It casts .453 on the drive bands. It's an old 1 hole so returning it isn't possible. Guess I'll size down to ..452 & try paper patching them . Have always wanted to try that.

[Slinger]

762x51:
your response from Lee when you called mimic's several response's I've had when contacting them about products that were not quite up to snuff, at least for me. Pretty much Lee is perfect you must be doing something wrong!

Others have recently posted much nicer things have happened with Lee, and it is about time! I will also admit it's been a bunch of years since I had the need to call Lee about a product, if it's not right it is fixed, returned or sold off.

My last was a 44-310 grain mold that was cut way to large for the gas check, a brief time spent in the mill made it a plain based mold and it worked well from then on.

So now that I've said all this I'll come right out and say it: your Lee mold is the most likely problem and you need to check the diamensions carefully.

As has been already posted Lee's QC is hit and miss. I will also point out a GB for a H&G 68 copy, run here, was rejected not once but twice, because they wouldn't follow the drawing sent for the mold design.

I also saw the rejected 6 cavity molds on sale in there closout section, with no explanation as to way they were "clearenced"!

Go check your mold!

As for the rifle? Shoot it as it sits for no other reason than to establish a baseline to judge improvements, or not, in future modifications, load development and boolit performance.

Be aware the fore end is the weak point in a Number 1 and setting up the hanger system correctly will yield great imporvements in accuracy.

Would you mind sharing on how to set-up the Hanger System on the #1. I'd like to check my fore-end out before I start working with handloads.

[HeavyMetal]

Basically you "free Float" the fore end on the hanger. Several aftermarket hanger systems are out there, see Brownell's for the kits or you can drill and tap the end of the hanger for a set screw.

Once drilled and tapped simply apply just enough pressure to the barrel to cause "seperation" of the fore end wood and the barrel.

The ever faithful One dollar bill should slide the length of the fore end with no contact other tha not getting around the mounting screw holding the fore end to the hanger.

On my Number 1 V in 22-250 one turn after making contact with the barrel was the magic number!

In all honesty the after market hanger kit allows you to make fine tuning at the range with the fore end on a lot easier.

I'd still shoot it first to establish my already mentioned baseline performance before I changed anything!

The old race car story change one thing test it, if it works great if not put it back and then try something else!

[Slinger]

HeavyMetal - Thanks for the information!

[Boogieman]

Most #1's will shoot tight groups without tuning IF you let the barrel cool between shots. they tend to string as it warms. Had a# 1B in 300Win. Mag. that would group 5 shots under a quarter at 100yds. with factory amo. Like Heavy Metal said try it first.

[Slinger]

Most #1's will shoot tight groups without tuning IF you let the barrel cool between shots. they tend to string as it warms. Had a# 1B in 300Win. Mag. that would group 5 shots under a quarter at 100yds. with factory amo. Like Heavy Metal said try it first.

A buddy of mine has several #1s and experiences the same as you Boogieman. I'll take all the advice and use it. Makes sense to see what I'm working with before I perform any surgery, huh?!?!?!?