35 Whelen in a Mauser?

[GrizzLeeBear]

I have a 98 Mauser action (full length, not an intermediate length like a yugo) that I am trying to decide what barrel to put on it. I am planning to put it in a Turkish 38 stock that I got cheap. It is a very nice looking piece of wood with good figure and a fair bit of tiger striping. Since its such a neat piece of wood I don't want to cut it down to the usual "sporter" length so I'm going to make it a kind of Mannlicher stock, using as much of the "military" furniture as I can. I have no desire for a 8mm. I have several guns in .30 and .35 calibers and want to stick with those to keep the number of different calibers I need to cast for down to a minimum.
I have a new 23" military (stepped) contour mauser barrel in .308, but the steps are in different places than the longer Turk barrel, so even with cutting the stock at the end of the shorter barrel, it will leave too much gap for my liking in several places along the barrel. I'm going to save that one, maybe put it on a yugo in the future. So, I am going to get one of the Adams & Bennett barrels from midway that has the F34 contour which is slightly fatter and should fill the stock better.
I really like the idea of the 35 Whelen. The A&B barrel has a 1 in 14 twist which should be cast friendly and 30-06 brass is easy to get (my dad has thousands of LC 06 brass I can use). I know the .358 might be a better choice since deer and maybe hogs would be the biggest thing I would hunt with it, but for the reasons above and they don't offer the barrels in .358, the 35 Whelen is it.
I have the RCBS 35-200-FN and the group buy 358-180-RF molds. For you guys that have a 35W what would be some good hunting loads for deer with these boolits? I have heard the recoil with these weight boolits (especially cast) is comparable to a 30-06, is that true?
They, of course, also have .308 and 30-06 barrels, but I have read so much about how good the 35's put critters down "right now" that I really like the idea of a 35 cal. rifle.

[testhop]

you might as well go for it or you will always wish you had and think what if
so get out of your sestem you only live once

[mstarling]

I have a .338-06 being built on a commercial FN action and have a 9,3x62 build on a VZ.24 action. Both cartridges work very nicely in these actions and require little if any rail or magazine work. I personally prefer the 9,3x62 to the 35 Whelen ... but you certainly can't go wrong with it on a Mauser if you like that caliber!

[L Ross]

Gee Grizz I found myself in the same predicament a few years ago. I had an Argentine 1909 Mauser that had been rechambered in 30-06. With the Euro bore I called it my .303-06. In other words I loaded .312" jacketed bullets in ought six cases and used it as a dirty weather rifle. Old military cut down stock, painted the metal with Rustoleum satin black, installed a redfield receiver sight, and a new Bold trigger. Great rough and tumble deer and elk rifle.
When I decided I wanted a cast bullet big game rifle, the 35 Whelen was my first choice. I sent the barreled action to Norm Johnson at High Plains reboring and rerifling in North Dakota. I asked for a cast friendly 1 in 16"twist but he offered many choices. The work was excellent and very reasonable. I usually hate to go out on a limb but I unhesitatingly recommend Norm's work.

So now I have a a medium bore dirty weather rifle that is cast boolit capable. Thus far I have been satisfied with 30 grains of 5744 and a 245 gr Saeco boolit cast of wheel weights and lubed with Carnuba red. About 1,850 fps and I think it'd take about 4 deer lined up in a row ro stop one.

Duke

[Bret4207]

My Whelen is on an O3-A3 action. Recoil is not an issue with cast, even the 250's, till you get past the 23-2500 mark with the 250's. About like an '06, yes, depending on stock design and overall weight. I don't think you'll be disappointed in the Whelen. It's a fine cartridge, very cast friendly IMO and offers a wide variety of styles, weights and materials for projectiles. As for specific loads- look in the various loading books and find a suitable starting load for the weight boolit you're shooting. If nothing else you might cut the jacketed starting load a bit. You can always fall back on 13.0 Red Dot or 16.0 gr 2400 to start with. The 2400 load I have seen increased up to around 20.0 in the Whelen, but a slower powder becomes more appropriate as you increase speed. the 16.0 gr load is a nice plinker and should put you around 1500 fps with a 200 gr, 1550-1600 with the 180.

The 35 Whelen should give you almost trouble free feeding in a standard Mauser 98. Although I also like the 358 Win, you stand a better chance of minor feed issues with the 358.

[Bass Ackward]

I have the RCBS 35-200-FN and the group buy 358-180-RF molds. For you guys that have a 35W what would be some good hunting loads for deer with these boolits? I have heard the recoil with these weight boolits (especially cast) is comparable to a 30-06, is that true?


Your success with those bullets is going to depend on your throat length. And the Whelen is a little long for these in the form standardized by Remington. Your throat length is also going to determine flexibility for seating depths and meplat shapes / sizes which may impact feeding from your action. With a bolt rifle, set up for cast, you can never have an action length or a magazine box too long. The longer the action length, the farther out you can seat your bullets as your throat lengthens and the less finicky bullet shape will be doing so. Top accuracy often depends on proper seating depth for minimal bullet jump.

And recoil can't be compared because a fully loaded 06 is a JAB and a hot loaded 35 Whelen with cast is a PUSH.

Want something to build anticipation?

With the 200 grain, 54 to 55 grains of RL15 is 2400 - 2450 out of a 24" tube with ACWW and a good lube. Only one deer was shot with this bullet until my custom mold arrived. Shot was a high quartering on a running deer at about 125 yards. Deer flipped as all four feet left the ground and impact was on it's side. Deer slid about 20 yards in the snow. Bang, flop.

[405]

Can't add much to the posts above. I think 1-14 or 1-16 twist would work fine. Think ahead about the throat dimensions as they relate to your sizer and bullet choices. You'll have to check with the smith about his reamer options on that.

Now.... without going into a long winding story about the 35 Wh. my experience with that cartridge is mixed. In my opinion (my opinion only!) The 17' shoulder angle and smallish datum ring left after bumping an 06 case up to 35 cal DOES or can lead to some headspace issues. If you shoot low pressure cast you will see it with the primers backed out after firing. If you shoot a little heavier load you won't see that evidence because the case head will go ahead and stretch back into the bolt face thus re-seating the primer. BUT the stretching has happened. Most 35 Whelen owners shooting the higher pressure J bullet loads factory or reload don't notice this headspace issue because of this phenomenon.... but it's likely the cases are still stretching! Two things can help- I did both to minimize the headspace issue - (1) Have the smith cut the chamber for shortest headspace possible, so that you can just feel the shoulder contact the datum ring when closing the bolt on a new 06 or Whelen case. (2) Go to the 35 Whelen AI with the sharper, slightly larger shoulder for more positive headspace control. I did both after building a regular 35 Whelen and spending a lot of time testing it. The minimum headspace along with the AI chamber solved the problem. Greatly increased case life and eliminated chances of early case head separation. Again, just my opinion! but it has some basis in experience. Good luck!

[felix]

405 said it correctly. Tight datum is first on the list. AI design is second on the list, but decreased taper does not have to be in the design, and for cast it should not be because angled cases do better it seems. Shoulder increase to 30 degrees would be plenty good enough, by altering the neck angle only to create a longer neck, by pushing in on the bottom of the angle segment which leaves the top "datum" length the same. Maybe the smithy can just shave off that area on a current 35 reamer. Loading dies should remain the same. Just don't push all the way down when sizing cases. ... felix

[lovedogs]

Once upon a time I had a .35 Whelen Imp. on a '98 built by McGowan. I've always regretted selling it as it was one of the best rifles I ever owned. I never tried cast in it but it was great with all the jacketed I shot in it. I thought the Imp. design was better and it sure worked great for me. That McGowan bbl. was one of the best I've ever had, too.

[jhalcott]

I have a 35 whelen built on a Mauser 98. My chamber is on the short side,so I have to trim cases before loading them. This is with 35 WHelen headstamped brass. It shoots both cast and the other kind quite well. I haven't tried any 180 cast in it but 200, 220 and 250 grain cast bullets work very well.

[blysmelter]

35Whelen is perfect in a mauser, I built mine using a VZ24-action. Have not tested it with cast but I have a mold, just nedds some time!

[Bass Ackward]

Because of folks describing Whelen problems over the years, I monitor this all the time now. I actually worried about this for years before building one. What a waste of my time.

Every year after season, I disassemble the bolt and remove the spring to clean the bolt. At that time I check the "feel" of the headspace by attempting to move the bolt in a forward and backward motion. I do this with one fired unsized case, one fired and resized case, and then a brand new virgin case in the chamber. The feel (headspace) is always tighter on both fired cases, than with new brass.

Bear in mind too that I actually anneal softer than new brass right on down below that shoulder which should weaken it considerably. And these cases are my originals and have more than 20 firings.

Nope. Don't kid yourself, different brands of new brass are all over the place. Same brand and box will be all over the place. The down side to headspacing on a new case is that it could actually be "fat" from the forming process. So when you chamber that brass in a chamber that is tapered, you think you are feeling the shoulder resistance and you are actually chambering LONGER than the go gauge itself. First time this happened to me, was enough. That is the reason for "the standard" in the first place. Long .... and short.

I will add that people often mistake "short" .... for "tight". There is a HUGE difference. I prefer tight to come from the specs on the reamer and the fit of the guide along with the method and speed of how the gun is chambered. But I still would chamber by the gauge for the correct length.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Because of folks describing Whelen problems over the years, I monitor this all the time now. I actually worried about this for years before building one. What a waste of my time.

Every year after season, I disassemble the bolt and remove the spring to clean the bolt. At that time I check the "feel" of the headspace by attempting to move the bolt in a forward and backward motion. I do this with one fired unsized case, one fired and resized case, and then a brand new virgin case in the chamber. The feel (headspace) is always tighter on both fired cases, than with new brass.

Bear in mind too that I actually anneal softer than new brass right on down below that shoulder which should weaken it considerably. And these cases are my originals and have more than 20 firings.

Nope. Don't kid yourself, different brands of new brass are all over the place. Same brand and box will be all over the place. The down side to headspacing on a new case is that it could actually be "fat" from the forming process. So when you chamber that brass in a chamber that is tapered, you think you are feeling the shoulder resistance and you are actually chambering LONGER than the go gauge itself. First time this happened to me, was enough. That is the reason for "the standard" in the first place. Long .... and short.

I will add that people often mistake "short" .... for "tight". There is a HUGE difference. I prefer tight to come from the specs on the reamer and the fit of the guide along with the method and speed of how the gun is chambered. But I still would chamber by the gauge for the correct length.

I have read all the legends of the detractors and went right ahead and had my early Ruger 77 rebarreled to .35 Whelen. My logic was that the good Colonel and/or James V. Howe would not have tolerated headspace troubles. I even politely told Ed Matunas that he was full of himself in a letter, his replay was pretty much that both .35s were troublesome because he said so, and let me know that he was available as a consultant for heap big wampum. Over the years, I have found that cases fired with my standard mild cast load of 20X2400/220 NEI/1700fps will shorten to the point of misfiring after ten cycles, IF PARTIAL FL SIZED. A Redding neck sizing die has improved case life to the 13-15 cycle range before neck splits appear. I am merciless about inspection, tossing any case that shows the slightest incipient neck split. Current experiment is far from complete, but I'm trying neck sizing plus annnealing after each five firings. In a few more years, I may have further good news. I am only tinkering with case life because of all the "experts" who bad mouth the .35 whelen. As I make most of my CB cases from Rem. or Fed. .30/06 range brass I don't really have to care. With full power jacketed loads I use only new Remington factory .35 Whelen cases and relegate them to CB use after ten firings. So far they are holding up well, also.

[S.R.Custom]

Indeed. You have to remember that gun writers are not necessarily gun experts, and stand just as much chance of being a friggin' idiot as the next guy.

Whelens are a no-brainer if you apply all the usual caveats-- minimum-go chamber (I like a slight crush fit on my forming loads), short throat (you can always make it longer if you don't like it), and if you want to use '06 cases to make your Whelen ammo, use new brass.

People seem to forget that when wild-catting and case forming, new brass is a requirement. They'll form a bunch of cases using stuff that's been shot already (read: stuff that's taken a 'set'), and then go trash-talking the cartridge when they have a bunch of separation and headspace issues. And I don't understand this business of wanting to 'Improve' the Whelen. If the Whelen is not sufficient for your purposes, maybe you should look at this. (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/magnum_1215/)

One more thing-- I wouldn't go any slower than a 1:14 twist. Personally, I prefer 1:12. You're going to want to shoot the heavy bullets, and not necessarily at warp speed. If you try to push a Lyman 3589 at a 'comfortable' velocity, you will feel no accuracy joy if you've screwed on a lazy 1:16 pipe.

All that said, my favorite Whelen was a Franken-Mauser with aperture sights and a rough turned Douglas 20" barrel. Never should have sold that gun...

[GrizzLeeBear]

Wow guy, thanks for all the input!

Necking up, headspace and new or once fired brass issues don't worry me about the 35 W. There are pretty easy ways to take care of any of these (as you guys have pointed out) IF they happen. I have formed and loaded 7mmTCU, 30 and 357 Herrett calibers without any problems. I always annealed once fired brass when necking up for the TCU and Herrett cases and had no problems with brass lasting 8 - 10 or more firings. I have heard the legend of headspace problems with the Whelen, but they were always related as "I have heard" or "this one guy said", etc. I think it is as much "urban legend" as anything. I see no reason a properly sized case in a properly cut chamber should be any more trouble than any other standard caliber.
Supermag, a Franken-Mauser is what I am planning to build. I haven't decided on whether or not to scope it. I do have a Lyman 57 for a mauser that I might put on it.

[S.R.Custom]

I've got some pretty guns in my collection, but my favorites have always been Franken-guns... that are built right. Of all the guns, they offer the fullest experience:

I love going to the range with them... first you take it out of its rolled up piece of carpet, and everyone laughs at you. http://fordsix.com/forum/images/smiles/rotfl.gif

Then you shoot really well with it, and everybody suddenly respects you. [smilie=1:

Then when they ask you how much something like that set you back--and you tell them--they hate you. http://fordsix.com/forum/images/smiles/banghead.gif

And there you have it-- Franken-Mauser as metaphor for common sense and good living. ;)

[Marlin Junky]

Your success with those bullets is going to depend on your throat length. And the Whelen is a little long for these in the form standardized by Remington. Your throat length is also going to determine flexibility for seating depths and meplat shapes / sizes which may impact feeding from your action.

I think what Bass has said here bears repeating. My next Whelen will probably be a bored out Browning High-Wall with a chamber cut by a custom ground reamer. Nevertheless, to the less experienced that may be looking on, if I can make a H-R Handi Rifle in .35 Whelen shoot, the cartridge cannot be deficient in design. The only caveat was needing to start with new Whelen brass and headspacing on the boolit to fit the brass to the chamber. After which, the only detail that needs attention is carefully setting the FL sizing die to just barely touch the shoulder. Granted, I'm not running 50K CUP loads, but I have next to nil extraction abilities with the $275.00 NEF gun.

MJ

[bruce drake]

I just sent off for a 358 Winchester barrel to be built off a A&B 35 Whelen barrel that had the barrel threads recut and the chamber recut for the shorter cartridge. It's got the standard 1-14 twist and I intend to shoot Lyman's 200gr boolit for deer as well as LEE's 158gr SWC pistol boolit for range time although I've read here that it will do good work as a medium deer boolit as well.

I'm going to be spinning it on a VZ-24 LR Mauser action I have on the shelf back home in Ga when I come home for mid-tour leave from Afghanistan. One good thing about this deployment is that I was able to search the back threads on the site and found a lot of good load data for the 358 Winchester that will get me very excited to build this rifle.

Bret, we might be sharing molds next fall!!!

Bruce

[NVcurmudgeon]

I see that this thread is three years old. Yes, the neck sizing in a true neck sizing die has greatly increased case life. It is no trick to get twenty firings with moderate cast loads if I anneal regularly. My favorite cases for forming to .35 Whelen are Rem. .270s. Rem. because that is what I have a lot of, and .270 because the extra length of a .270 becomes a standard length .35 Whelen when formed. Cases originally .30/06 come out a little short when formed.

I see a lot of comment about recoil in this thread. My Ruger 77/Lilja weighs right at nine lbs. complete with Redfield 2-7 and five 250 gr. jacketed loads. With my pet load of 20.0 X 2400 at 1700 fps and one of three 200 gr. cast boolits you can shoot it all day. (This load has several times made the best scoped rifle group at the Nevada Cast Bullet Shoot with a NEI almost clone of the Lyman 358315.) With a 250gr. Nosler Partition and a case full of RL 15 at 2600 fps recoil feels much like a light .30/06 with 180 gr. full power loads, much pleasanter to shoot than any .300 Magnum I have ever fired. Especially Weatherbys, they're just nasty!

[bruce drake]

An old thread but a lot of great information was packed in it!

I've got a new set of 358 Win dies coming in the mail as well. I just need to get home to spin that barrel on and then chamber it properly!

I've been wanting a 35 caliber rifle for a very long time and this will probably be the way to do it without breaking the bank.

Bruce