regarding cast bullets

[gumpy]

i have been having a running dialogue with a guy i know on lead bullets. I recieved this today in response to an email stating i was not gettin leading at higher velocities, if the bullets matched the barrel, and were made properly. I could be wrong but the other comment about lead having more friction than a jacketed bullet also flies in what i have always assumed to be true.
am I off base?

You just like your lead bullets. That’s fine. I don’t believe you can change the facts that lead bullets at higher velocities lead barrels. There is no debate among experts. Lead is a higher friction surface than is a jacketed bullet and thus lead bullets don’t feed as well in autos (also can deform and feed poorly from this). These are just the facts – you can accept or reject them – it makes little difference in the scheme of life.



You also like many “old” calibers that have fallen victim to better calibers. That’s fine too, but it doesn’t change the facts. High velocity rifle calibers shoot flatter and are able to make clean kills at long range that slow, heavy bullets cannot. It’s just a fact. A hunter wants to maximize his opportunities, not limit them to short range due to an inferior caliber. You don’t see military snipers shooting lead bullets out of a 45/70 for good reason. They want the best caliber for the work, not something severely limited.



Much of the attraction of a 44 mag or 41 mag is the high velocity. These can be used for hunting and long range target work. Short range economical lead bullet loads have their place for target/plinking purposes, but jacketed high velocity loads are a big part of the reason for the cartridge’s reason for existing. That is why they were developed.

[C. Latch]

A hunter wants to maximize his opportunities, not limit them to short range due to an inferior caliber. You don’t see military snipers shooting lead bullets out of a 45/70 for good reason. They want the best caliber for the work, not something severely limited.

As a hunter, I'll give him that part, more or less (it's not that you can't shoot deer at 400 yards with a 45-70, it's just that it's easier with an '06 and jacketed boattails) but otherwise his post is nothing more than repeating what he has heard and assumed to be true.

He did not reason himself into his position, and you'll not reason him out of it. I wouldn't bother.

[Walter Laich]

I often enjoy listening to 'experts'

[725]

C. Latch,
There is so much wrong with the OP "facts", that I think I'll take your advice and not bother. There's a place for jacketed - there's a place for cast. Different animals with different attributes.

[geargnasher]

He did not reason himself into his position, and you'll not reason him out of it. I wouldn't bother.

That right there is very well put, and is the reason why so many incorrect "positions" exist amongst men regarding a wide variety of topics.

Gear

[shaman]

I'm a newbie to diy casting for centerfire rifle, but I've got over 30 years in as a deer shooter.
1) It's funny that 45-70 is mentioned. Go look at 458 SOCOM. It makes a great deer round and the specs on it are comparable to 45-70. What goes around, comes around. The guy who let me shoot his, is working it up as a deer rifle with (drum roll) cast lead.
2) One of the things that intrigues me about lead as a deer hunter is its ability to mushroom. Your buddy has it dead wrong. I'm eager to try my homebrew bullets out on a deer. My guess is the results will be superior to jacketed.
3) The problem with cast is that you do have to sacrifice velocity a little to prevent leading. However, as a deer hunter, what I give up in velocity and range I can trade for reduced recoil, better terminal performance, lower cost, etc.

[JimA]

'
"Much of the attraction of a 44 mag or 41 mag is the high velocity. These can be used for hunting and long range target work. Short range economical lead bullet loads have their place for target/plinking purposes, but jacketed high velocity loads are a big part of the reason for the cartridge’s reason for existing. That is why they were developed."

I guess it wasn't true that Elmer Keith used a 250 grain boolit with his name on them in the 44 magnum. It's true that the 41 mag was designed with jacketed but it was for law enforcement use.
Where do these guys get their info. The experts that extoll the superiority of jacketed over lead probably had a Glock as their first pistol.

My local shooting range is full of them.

[tazman]

He probably read it on the internet some place. Snicker

[CastingFool]

When arguments start about best rifle, best bullet, etc., I have a few comments. 1. Know your weapon and know what YOU can do with it. 2. Shoot what you're comfortable with, and 3, shot placement is key.

[lwknight]

You just like your lead bullets. That’s fine. I don’t believe you can change the facts that lead bullets at higher velocities lead barrels. There is no debate among experts. Lead is a higher friction surface than is a jacketed bullet and thus lead bullets don’t feed as well in autos (also can deform and feed poorly from this). These are just the facts – you can accept or reject them – it makes little difference in the scheme of life

No doubt that this guy is committed to defending his position by trying to sound smart. The fact is that he is totally wrong. Lead might be a higher friction against sandpaper but its pretty slick on steel.
He is basically saying that he don't care what you think if it does not coincide with his opinion.

I would forget him and waste no more thought or time with it.

[MT Gianni]

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
I would direct him to this hodgdon data site for 357 and have him explain to you how a max load of CFE pistol is 6.9 gr powder, 33,700 PSI and 1273 fps while a cast bullet max load is 6.6 gr powder, 28500 psi and 1321 FPS. See if he really understands what friction means.

[Wolfer]

His mind is made up, there's no need to confuse him with the facts.

I consider myself a hunter though and I take exception to his comments. I can handicap myself with an outdated low powered weapon and still bring home meat.

Why do people hunt with bows. Maybe they don't know guns have been invented yet. Imagine their surprise when the find out.:roll:

[tazman]

Wolfer wrote: Why do people hunt with bows. Maybe they don't know guns have been invented yet. Imagine their surprise when the find out.

Now that is hilarious. I almost choked on my soda when I read that.

[DHurtig]

If people don't want to limit themselves, Why are are there so many people hunting with bows and muzzle loaders?

[waksupi]

Your friend needs to come here for an education. He is speaking from an orifice usually reserved for waste removal.

[white eagle]

some people just want a challenge
it is more satisfying to craft your own boolits and use them for hunting and plinking than to rely on buying them
just ask the experts like John Nosler,Joyce Hornady
there is a world of difference in spying a buck or bull at 400 yds that has no idea you are even there and shooting him than actually using good woodsmanship and hunting skill to get in the next 200 and closer
save your breath on your friend

[cbrick]

The guy you know is regurgitating old wives tales none of which are based in any knowledge, experience and certainly no facts. For example, the 44 mag came about exclusively with cast bullets. A lubricated cast bullet has far less friction with the bore and his statement that . . . "High velocity rifle calibers shoot flatter and are able to make clean kills at long range" sounds like he's in need of destruction of half the meat or wounding an animal at 400-500 yards and then never seeing it again. Doesn't sound like much of a hunter to me.

I think you would be wise to leave this guy sitting on the porch with all of the other old wives where he can gloat in his ignorance and have it appreciated.

Rick

[dragon813gt]

Is it bad that I just go along and encourage people like this? Let them spread the old wives tales. It means more lead for me. Who wants competition these days? Anyone that is slightly serious will do the research and find the truth.

[cbrick]

Was he one of the guys in Cabela's fighting for the last box of Speer FNRTBTXTFVMAX?

No cheetah, you forgot "tactical", it's the Speer tactical FNRTBTXTFVMAX.

Rick

[hickfu]

I run into people like that at gun shows... I laugh at them and when they ask what Im laughing at, I say them... It really pisses them off, especially when I wont make any other come backs when they start spouting "facts" at me.

The worst was a guy at the gun show that was telling people that they can use lead bullets, but they need to be moly coated or they will lead their barrels... I laughed at the guy when he was telling someone that and he got mad and asked me why I was laughing at him. I told him that I shoot only lead in 90% of all my rifles and handguns and I dont get leading and they are not Moly coated by him... People always come away from his booth and ask about cast boolits.


Doc

[wistlepig1]

Just another " Mall Ninja", don't wasted your time!

[MtGun44]

Ignore the fool. Life is way too short to spend time on fools that
have closed minds.

Move on, there is lots of fun stuff ahead, forget this one.

Actually, if you are in person when he spouts - start laughing as mentioned
above. REALLY, REALLY makes them mad. DON'T let them get you mad,
just laugh harder when they get upset.

Bill

[mpmarty]

.... and ask the clown where his floppy shoes are.

[44man]

.... and ask the clown where his floppy shoes are.
Along with all the rest of the comments----:drinks:

Actually I would tend to agree with the unwashed guy----keep him away from our lead supply, no sense letting him waste any! :Fire:
All of my revolvers shoot at or a little over jacketed loads and when I shot rifles with cast long ago I used book jacketed loads. Now that I bought a 30-30 I have found full loads are better then mouse fart stuff. I have been to 2400 fps in it with no leading and better groups using a heavy boolit.
I have never found a reason to use a pinch of shotgun powder with cast.
It is what all of us run into, a guy that reads and never does. I would ask him if he knew where I could find some free lead!

[Garyb]

His disregard and refusal to use lead just means there is more for me. Tell him thanks!

[rhead]

Your friend needs to come here for an education. He is speaking from an orifice usually reserved for waste removal.


It just seems that way because of the location of his head. I hope the back of his neck does get a sunburn.

[cainttype]

I'm one that totally disagrees with your buddy's idea of what makes a hunter. For many years the firearms I carried into the field were almost always handguns, leaving very capable rifles at home.
The stalk WAS the hunt, to me.
I have no doubt that staying on the ground and moving to my quarry taught me far more about the animal's nature than sitting any sort of stand ever could.
Heck, most stand-sitters can't even see an animal in a thicket. What is often invisible to them can be obvious to a trained eye, not to mention the subtle noises that surround us in the game fields.
Anyone can ambush an animal over a food plot, or with a little practice reach out hundreds of yards with a high-powered rifle. I'll always consider the person that persues his game on foot, in it's own neighborhood, closing the distance to make a clean kill as truely hunting. The rest is simply "harvesting".
So yes, some very good hunters do "limit" themselves...I think that's a good thing. FWIW

[Harter66]

Geez, I must be doing something wrong . I have 1 of those old cartridges that out runs the jacketed data on less powder w/cast. I have a much newer cartridge that goes faster w/a heavier cast than jacketed . I don't think my 357 will punch a engine block like the early steel FMJs did,but it will exit from 25yd through the spine, neck, and 1 side of the jaw of a mulie and clocks 400fps faster in 18" carbine than the revolver . Nothing wrong w/1600fps and 158 gr of bullet. The books show the same for the old tired 45 Colts........ wait why did I need a 44 again ?

40 S&W seems to shoot cast just fine and matches jacketed velocities.

Once all the copper was out I never have had leading issues except when I just overran the limits or did something completely stupid.

I've had similar discussions w/a life long friend about reloading in general ,best day ever when he cries about $22-25/box 357 and points out that cowboy Colts are almost $40/box and I smile cause I'm shootin' Colts for less than $8/box.

[hickfu]

Sad to say that my BIL is the same way *hangs head in shame* He wants a 338 Lapua so he can hunt at 1000 yards. I told him that is not hunting, its target shooting at a poor animal that he most likely will just wound and it will get away since its already 1000 yards ahead of him.

I would rather sneak up to within 150 yards or closer and take an ethical shot with my 45-70 and have it DRT, that way I will have my meat and he will be searching all over for a wounded animal (oh, and my reloads cost about .35 cents each)



Doc

[trixter]

You just like your lead bullets. That’s fine. I don’t believe you can change the facts that lead bullets at higher velocities lead barrels. There is no debate among experts. Lead is a higher friction surface than is a jacketed bullet and thus lead bullets don’t feed as well in autos (also can deform and feed poorly from this). These are just the facts – you can accept or reject them – it makes little difference in the scheme of life.

I must say here, this is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! I reject this adamently!!

[waksupi]

I'm hoping the OP was just quoting his rocket scientist friend. Otherwise, I need explained why I have rifles I shoot at 2500-2700 fps with no leading, and no groups exceeding 1 5/8". I do believe Bullshop has pushed beyond 3000 fps with no leading, as have others.

[Blammer]

i have been having a running dialogue with a guy i know on lead bullets. I recieved this today in response to an email stating i was not gettin leading at higher velocities, if the bullets matched the barrel, and were made properly. I could be wrong but the other comment about lead having more friction than a jacketed bullet also flies in what i have always assumed to be true.
am I off base?

You just like your lead bullets. That’s fine. I don’t believe you can change the facts that lead bullets at higher velocities lead barrels. There is no debate among experts. Lead is a higher friction surface than is a jacketed bullet and thus lead bullets don’t feed as well in autos (also can deform and feed poorly from this). These are just the facts – you can accept or reject them – it makes little difference in the scheme of life.



You also like many “old” calibers that have fallen victim to better calibers. That’s fine too, but it doesn’t change the facts. High velocity rifle calibers shoot flatter and are able to make clean kills at long range that slow, heavy bullets cannot. It’s just a fact. A hunter wants to maximize his opportunities, not limit them to short range due to an inferior caliber. You don’t see military snipers shooting lead bullets out of a 45/70 for good reason. They want the best caliber for the work, not something severely limited.



Much of the attraction of a 44 mag or 41 mag is the high velocity. These can be used for hunting and long range target work. Short range economical lead bullet loads have their place for target/plinking purposes, but jacketed high velocity loads are a big part of the reason for the cartridge’s reason for existing. That is why they were developed.

I got such a good laugh out of all of the above I got tears in my eyes....

I'd just have to leave him alone, laughing all the way as I walk away.

[3leggedturtle]

I started reloading for a 30/30 with Micro groove using COWW's in '72, it wasn't until 1991 or so that I read that you can't shoot lead accurately out of that rifling. All the poor squirrels that would still be alive today if I had only known that back then. Ignorance sure is bliss.