Lee fcd for 38 special or not?

[kryogen]

Is it ok to use my lee fcd to crimp 38 spl .358 boolits or i should just taper crimp a bit with the seater die?

No no for 9mm because of the sizing i have read and what about 451 in 45?

[tazman]

I don't believe the seating die for 38 special does a taper crimp at all. It does a roll crimp. The sizing issue would also apply to the 38 special.

[kryogen]

So would the roll crimp be good

[Westwindmike]

You don't need the FCD in 38spl. The roll crimp in the seating die does just fine.

[tazman]

If the boolit has a crimping ring in it, it will work perfectly. I you are referring to the 120tc you mentioned in the other thread, it will work ok with light loads. I have loaded that boolit just that way and it worked fine. If the loaded cartridge will go into the chamber it will work ok with a light roll crimp and a light powder charge.

[ElDorado]

The factory crimp die will swage your 38 bullet down just like it will a 9mm. Roll crimp revolver cartridges, and taper crimp auto-loading handgun cartridges. The factory crimp die creates more problems than it solves, at least with cast bullets.

[gefiltephish]

Ok, this turned out a bit overboard but here goes...

Many, including myself, much prefer to crimp separately from seating. That said, many millions of excellent rounds have been produced seating/crimping in one step. There are many who prefer to use that method. Either method is perfectly acceptable, it's just a matter of personal preferrence.

Many, including myself, view Lee's carbide fcd as an abomination, an unnessary evil, a sales gimmick that serves no real useful purpose. However, there are many who embrace it's use. Again, personal preference. What is the carbide fcd? Simple, it's a crimp die that has had a carbide ring inserted. What does it do, how does it work? 1. It crimps, simple enough. 2. Unfortunately, it also potentially post sizes the now carefully assembled cartridge by forcing it through the carbide ring. It's probably fine for jacketed, but not so fine for oversize cast bullets. At best, the carbide ring does nothing, at worst it swages your bullets to a smaller diameter thus reducing neck tension and potentially causing leading. If you find your cartridges "need" to be post sized, you're doing something terribly wrong and need to figure what that is and solve it.

The collet (rifle) fcd is a different device entirely and works quite well.

Although obviously associated, think of neck tension and crimping as two seperate things. Generally, I think of neck tension in terms of how many lbs of force is required to iniate bullet movement and is the result of the interference fit of the bullet to the case neck, but it's not quite that simple. There are numerous factors that affect neck tension, not simply neck id and bullet od. A list of factors off the top of my head below. I'm sure I'll miss a few.


Neck id after sizing and expanding.
Bullet od.
Bullet hardness, whether cast, plated, jacketed or solid.
Case design. Wall thickness and taper for example.
Caliber. This pretty much goes along with case design though.
Case manufacturer specs.
Brass hardness, whether by design or work hardening.
Seating depth.
Bullet material.
Lube and/or coating.
Case age.
Times fired.

Of course not all of the above will apply in every case, and realize there may be considerable overlap.

Taper crimp for (handgun) auto's and also bullets without a crimp groove to be loaded in a revolver (usually plated). "Taper crimp" is a misnomer, it's not really a crimp. It's ONLY purpose is to just flatten out any flair of the case mouth so that it doesn't interfere with chambering. Over crimping can have the undesirable effect of reducing neck tension by swaging the bullet inside the case neck, much like the carbide fcd. The difference is that an overcrimp affects mostly the case mouth area, whereas the fcd affects the entire bearing length of the bullet. In the case of cast, swaging of the bullet may also lead to leading of the barrel. Further, overcrimping for rimless auto calibers that headspace off the case mouth can result in the cartridge seating too deep into the chamber and not firing (firing pin can't hit the primer) and difficult extraction of the unfired round. Overcrimping of plated bullets can cut through the plating.

Roll crimp for revolvers and rifles with tubular magazines using bullets that have a crimp groove. For revolvers, the purpose is to prevent the bullet from pulling out of the case on recoil. If bullets should pull out too far, rotation of the cylinder is hindered. I also imagine accuracy flies out the window. For tubular magazines, the roll crimp helps prevent bullet setback due to recoil along with the weight of each cartridge pressing on the bullets. Otherwise a catastrophic overpressure condition could occur.

There are many instances where no crimping is used at all, such as bolt action rifles or probably any single shot, as long as they chamber.

Oh, and to the OP, unless it's undersize from Lee, the fcd will probably have no swage effect on .451-.452 bullets unless unusually thick walled cases are used.

[kryogen]

ok thanks

The FCD doesnt seem to touch the case wall at all on the 38 special ammo I am making, but I will consider removing that die, and adjusting the seater die to slightly crimp.
Thanks.

[jonas302]

If there is a crimp grove then the roll crimp in the seater will work super if no crimp grove the just crimp enough to take the flare out and lay flat against the bullet that should work for light 38s were there isn't enough recoil to move the bullet in the case as the loads get heavier a lee FCD works good to crimp were there is no grove some need the carbide post sizing ring knocked out some don't

[chsparkman]

I have found that the FCD works fine without swaging for revolver cartridges, at least in .32 H&R, .357/.38, .41 mag, .44 mag/sp, and .45 Colt, but not for the pistol cartridges I load, specifically .380, 9mm, .40, .45. Just my experience. For the pistol cartridges I've switched to Redding or Hornady taper crimp dies and they work much better. Some guys on this forum have knocked the sizing ring out of the FCD and it works great after that. I haven't tried it.

[gefiltephish]

Lee also makes a taper crimp die for about 12-13 bucks. Works well but not as convenient as the adjustable thimble on the fcd. I knocked the rings out the fcd's I had.

[Jupiter7]

Lee also makes a taper crimp die for about 12-13 bucks. Works well but not as convenient as the adjustable thimble on the fcd. I knocked the rings out the fcd's I had.

I use the lee taper dies on all my pistol cartridges, replacing the FCD. They work very well

[bedbugbilly]

I load on a 4 hole Lee Turret - seat and roll crimp my 38s in two different operations. I cast WC, SWC and two different RN. I size em to .358 - TL (regardless of if they have standard lube grooves) in Alox/Paste Wax - shoot 'em out of a half dozen different revolvers - have no problem leading at all. All I see is the dissatisfaction with the Lee FCD - for me, it works just fine. I use it to put on a moderate roll crimp on the 38s. Once seated, the cartridge goes up in to my Lee FC die just fine.

All I hear about is how this die "swages" the lead bullet. The carbide insert is supposed to be sized to insure that the cartridge is in spec. I load my 9 mm the same way only the FC die is putting a taper crimp on it.

Everyone has their own methods, likes and dislikes. All I know is that the FC die has never presented a problem with my reloads and all I load with is lead. To some, the FC die may be an un-necessary expense to some. For me, it's not and I like the Lee 4 die sets to use as it allows me to utilize my 4 hole turret and seat and crimp in two different operations. I suppose I could look at the 4 hole turret press as an un-necessary expense as I could actually load just fine on a single stage press.

My suggestion would be for you to give it a try and see for yourself. If you find that it sages your boo lit, polish the carbide insert to a larger I.D. or do something different. Everyone's mileage may vary - all I know is that it works for me and I don't worry about things I've heard on the "net". If it was swaging my bullets undersize, then I'd have leading problems - I'm not so I just load 'em and shoot 'em and don't try to "over think" it. YMMV

[jmort]

The Poll thread here is 2/3 favorable FCD and 1/3 unfavorable. The handgun FCD horse has been beaten to death. The handgun FCD can swage-down over SAAMI spec Boolits. For my jacketed self-defense ammunition it makes sense on every level. Enhances/ensures uniformity, concentricity, and reliability.

[35remington]

Reader's Digest Version:

To see if the FCD is having a negative effect on the tension/size of your bullet in your loaded cartridge, do the following:

Measure the diameter of the case over the midpoint of the bullet and at its base and near the case mouth. Now run through the factory crimp die. Measure again at the same points.

If there is any measured reduction in diameter, and you didn't want/need the bullet to be smaller than it was, well, it is now. Decide for yourself in shooting whether this has any effect to the worse. If it does, discontinue use.

My FCD will affect the diameter of a .452" cast bullet and I am surprised someone would opine it would not without asking about the final sized diameter produced in that particular set of FCD's mentioned. Mine post sizes to .471." Simple mathematics and measurement of post sizing diameter makes the effect on bullet diameter clearly obvious.

If the finished cartridge with taper crimp alone (and no post sizing) fits the chamber in question it is reasonable to ask just what the FCD did to improve or enhance uniformity, concentricity and reliability. If it in fact reduces the case diameter over the bullet after being run through the die it is fair to ask......did it reduce uniformity, concentricity and reliability? If there is a change, it very well may have.

Better to therefore check. If something was changed that didn't need to be changed, maybe, just maybe, it isn't a change for the better.

[Sgtonory]

ok thanks

The FCD doesnt seem to touch the case wall at all on the 38 special ammo I am making, but I will consider removing that die, and adjusting the seater die to slightly crimp.
Thanks.

38 special is the only caliber that i use the FCD for it dose not swage my boolits down. And puts a nice adjustable crimp.

[rintinglen]

I use the FCD exclusively in straight walled cartridges. I load ALL my 38's and 357's using one as the crimp die in the 4th stage on my old Dillon 450B. As I load many rounds of mixed brass (2,000-5,000) a year, the FCD is essential in making the cartridges all chamber. The problem stems from unequal lengths. A conventional roll crimp die will bulge the the case neck at the crimp to the point where the cartridge will not chamber. The FCD is an instant fix for that.
For match ammo, I use cases all of the same manufacture and lot, and trim them to get consistent lengths, but I do not have time for that for my plinking/blasting/ practice ammo. The FCD shines for these uses.
The one cartridge where I do not recommend the FCD is the 9 MM. There, every bad thing that has been mentioned comes to fruition, especially with mixed brass.

[rhead]

I get the impression that some nomenclature errors have crept into this discussion. My Lee FCD does affect the finished diameter of the boolit but only the small ring (it appears to be about a sixteenth of an inch or so) that comes into contact with the die. My taper crimp die could reduce the finished diameter of the boolit if i set it down in the press low enough. Both dies work well enough to correct two different conditions. The FCD has several moving parts and i sometimes wonder about its useful life.

[JimA]

The OP asked specifically about .38 special. The Lee FCD works fine for that cartridge if you use .358 boolits. The sizing ring will not touch your finished round on the way out unless you crimp excessively. If you need a larger diameter to fit your revolver or rifle it may have an effect.
I've never had a problem with and straight walled case with the FCD. My revolvers work fine without leading with standard size (.001) over bore. I'm sure some will have different needs and the FCD may not work well for them.
Pistol cartridges especially .45 auto are different. A .452 boolet will definitely get squeezed in the FCD. I use several different boolits in each of the calibers I shoot so I prefer to crimp in a separate step. I use a regular taper crimp in all ammo for semi autos.

[Boolseye]

Yes, I use it for .38 spl and .357, since the chambers in my m66 are tight and I have chambering problems otherwise w/ .358 cast boolits.

[Char-Gar]

When it comes to the Lee Factory Crimp die and cast bullets, some people swear by it and some people swear at it. If folks are prone to think Lee can do no wrong they fall into the former category and if they think Lee can pull a boo-boo from time to time they fall into the second category.

I don't own a Lee FCD, have never used a LFCD and don't intent to buy one just to find out who is right and who is wrong. I don't care about that enough to spend money for personal research into the subject.

I have loaded several hundred thousand rounds of 38 Special ammo and every round has had either a roll crimp or in some cases a taper crimp. It has worked for me for a very long time.

[Shiloh]

I use a slight taper crimp. Just enough to close the belled case mouth.

Shiloh

[mdi]

Here's an idea; try reloading without a Lee FCD. If you have chambering problems, find out why, and correct the problem. I think of all those bazillion rounds loaded successfully prior to Lee's introduction of the FCD...

[JimA]

Wow. I'm pretty new here but can see that the Lee FCD is a very polarizing subject..

If you want to crimp separately from seating, your choices are limited. The original poster said he had a factory crimp die and wanted to know if he could use it for 38 special. He can. it's pretty simple. I use a lot of different boolits in 38 special and it's a lot easier to adjust the seating depth without a crimp and then crimp on the next station. I have been using one for years in that caliber and have never had it do anything but put a roll crimp on my cartridges. The sizing ring at the bottom will never touch your case unless it's over standard chamber size. The other option is a Redding profile crimp die which cost more and he already has the Lee die.

Auto pistol cartridges are another matter. A .452 bullet in a 45 auto will get swaged by the carbide ring upon exit. Not so for 38 special with .358 boolits.

I'm not from the camp that Lee can do no wrong, but I find some of the comments from people who only "heard on the internet" pretty amusing.

[ElDorado]

It does seem to be a hot topic. I didn't realize that.

Kryogen - since it seems that you already have one on hand, why don't you just try it and see if you like it. It seems to be a matter of personal taste, anyway.

It really makes me wonder when a touchy question is asked when 99% of us would have just tried it in the first place without asking anyone. I hope you're not doing this on purpose just to start a ruckus. I'm not accusing you, I'm just looking at the situation and wondering out loud.

[tazman]

I would never have thought a simple question about the use of a crimping die would cause an argument. I suspect the OP asked because he didn't want to screw up a bunch of ammo when a quick question and a simple answer would save him a problem. I would have asked myself if I didn't know the answer.

[ElDorado]

I wouldn't have thought it either, but it looks like everyone knows it's a hot topic except me. I don't know why a man can't relate his experiences without others' condescending remarks on his comments, especially with simple questions.

Believe it or not, there are people who start threads on the internet just because they know it will cause a controversy. How many times have we read the old 9mm vs 45 threads, or AR vs AK? Most of us are savvy to those subjects and stay away, but trolls are quick to find people's sore spot and poke at it. Helping people who are earnestly trying to learn is worthwhile, but entertaining trolls is a waste of valuable time. I'm just wondering if that's the case here. If not, my apologies to the OP and let's move on. Be aware that it happens, though.

[DLCTEX]

My 45 acp FCD does not size down .452 boolits. I may have got one that is larger than most. The only time the ring touches the cartridge is when something cause a bulge or something else has gone wrong. If I feel drag when lowering the ram, it's time to find out what is happening. 38 and 357 get a roll crimp, or just enough crimp to smooth out the flare if there is no crimp groove where I seat the boolit to. 44 mag and 480 Ruger get roll crimped in a groove. 9mm get a taper crimp with a non FCD. I seat and then crimp all cartridges.

[williamwaco]

DO NOT use the Lee FCD die on any straight wall revolver cartridge.

For more details on.38 Special seating and crimping see:

http://reloadingtips.com/how_to/crimping_revolvers.htm


.

[Steve Gold]

I have to use the FCD when loading for my contender in 38 special, it has a tight chamber and even a slight roll crimp will make a very slight bulge just below the crimp. This on this gun only will prevent the round from chambering, the barrel maker did warn me that this would be the case and he was right.

For my S&W K frame a roll crimp is fine.


Now come on guys lets all play nice :)

[mpmarty]

The LEE FCD in straight wall pistol calibers is an answer to a question nobody asks. It causes more problems than it could ever solve. The rifle fCD with the moving collet is a whold different situation. I have one in every rifle caliber I load and they all work as advertised.

[Bullwolf]

My 45 acp FCD does not size down .452 boolits. I may have got one that is larger than most. The only time the ring touches the cartridge is when something cause a bulge or something else has gone wrong. If I feel drag when lowering the ram, it's time to find out what is happening. 38 and 357 get a roll crimp, or just enough crimp to smooth out the flare if there is no crimp groove where I seat the boolit to. 44 mag and 480 Ruger get roll crimped in a groove. 9mm get a taper crimp with a non FCD. I seat and then crimp all cartridges.

Others have suggested before that the carbide rings in the Lee Factory Crimp Dies might not all be the same sizes, or set to exact specifications. Perhaps quality control on the FCD varies by a bit. The carbide ring in the Lee FCD I purchased for 45ACP is too small for boolits sized to .452 diameter.

Not saying you are mistaken by any means DLCTEX, but my Lee 45ACP FCD will definitely size down my cast 45 boolits from .452 to .451

A while back I tested out how the Lee FCD worked for me. For this test I used my RCBS 45ACP 4 piece die set known to work, and assemble reliable ammunition. I added the Lee 45ACP carbide FCD as a final step. The Lee die was backed off to the point where it was not applying any crimp.

You could feel the carbide ring in the Lee FCD contact all the cases with a finished loaded round that had been previously sized, loaded, and taper crimped to .470 and already fit/passed in a go/no go gauge and passes a plunk test.

Using a kinetic bullet puller, I pulled the loaded cartridges assembled with the FCD and a .452 cast Linotype boolit. After measuring a pulled boolit you could see that the Lee FCD had re-sized the .452 boolit down to .451 diameter.

Here's a picture of it measured with a micrometer, and photographed alongside digital calipers for the vernier impaired.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3879




Using or not using the FCD is always going to be a controversial subject, but when I hear more and more folks who know what they are doing say its working for me... I start to thinking the Lee pistol Factory Crimp Die carbide rings might not all be the same sizes, or perhaps quite a few have slipped past quality control that were too tight. (like my 45ACP FCD is) The pistol FCD sounds good on paper as technically all your ammo should feed if it's on the smaller side of things rather than the larger side of things. For a cast boolit shooter though, after going through all the hassle to get boolits the right size for maximum accuracy and barrel fit, correct case bell/expansion so they aren't sized down during seating and don't lead - then adding the FCD die negates all that. The Lee FCD = bad handgun Mojo for me with cast.

The FCD wouldn't be a bad thing if I was going to load, and shoot only jacketed ammunition. However my 1911's at least prefer .452 and not .451 cast lead boolits.

I see the Lee FCD as a fix for a problem in my loading procedure that does not exist, so I'm against using it. I gauge all my hand loaded ammunition before use. If they do not pass for some reason, I go back and correctly set up my dies until they do rather than using the FCD as a band-aid during my reloading process for dies that are set up incorrectly.

Since I am already sizing my brass initially, I don't really see any benefit to sizing my cases two times. Having the FCD swaging down my boolits so they are undersize is even worse.

If you made some large quantity mistake, and wanted to shoot it up rather than pulling it down this could be a handy die to have in your reloading tool box. It could be a useful item in some situations, for example use as a bulge buster. Unfortunately, it can also readily cause problems in and of itself when used with over sized cast boolits.

If the Lee pistol FCD works well for others, then I'm be happy for them. If you purchase another one, and suddenly start having problems with undersized boolits, I know exactly where I would start looking first.



- Bullwolf

[JimA]

I really wish Lee would sell a roll crimp die without the carbide ring, like they do the taper crimp die. It would be cheaper and this topic would go away. Because I prefer to crimp separately from seating I use the FC Dies that work for me (roll crimp revolver cases) and never actually need or use the carbide ring.

[357shooter]

Just buy the seating/crimping body from Lee and use that in the fourth station to crimp. It's cheap and it works great.

[Char-Gar]

I really wish Lee would sell a roll crimp die without the carbide ring, like they do the taper crimp die. It would be cheaper and this topic would go away. Because I prefer to crimp separately from seating I use the FC Dies that work for me (roll crimp revolver cases) and never actually need or use the carbide ring.

Lots of other folks out there making dies beside Lee. Why limit yourself to just one maker and their notions of how to make dies?

[JimA]

Lots of other folks out there making dies beside Lee. Why limit yourself to just one maker and their notions of how to make dies?

I don't. I use several brands of dies depending on what I load. I like Hornady seating dies for example and the sizing die depends on what I'm loading for. There are not a lot of makers making roll crimp stand alone dies.

[Char-Gar]

I don't. I use several brands of dies depending on what I load. I like Hornady seating dies for example and the sizing die depends on what I'm loading for. There are not a lot of makers making roll crimp stand alone dies.

Any seating die with the seating stem removed or backed off to not contact the bullet is a stand alone roll crimp die. Many available on Ebay for not much money.

[williamwaco]

I have to use the FCD when loading for my contender in 38 special, it has a tight chamber and even a slight roll crimp will make a very slight bulge just below the crimp. This on this gun only will prevent the round from chambering, the barrel maker did warn me that this would be the case and he was right.

For my S&W K frame a roll crimp is fine.


Now come on guys lets all play nice :)


Re-read Char-gar and Shiloh

Then Please re-read:

http://reloadingtips.com/how_to/crimping_revolvers.htm

Please note the last couple of photo's. They are MASSIVELY over crimped but there is no bulge. This is thanks to the design of the seating die and the crimp ring. If a crimp ring is two "square" or if the inside of the seating die is too large, the crimp ring can push the mouth of the case down instead of in and result in a bulge.

PS: My Thompson Contender has the largest chamber I have ever seen. It will swallow cases that none of my revolvers will accept.

PPS: Ignore those that do not "play nice."
There are enough people here who sincerely want to help you you do not need to listen to those that just want to insult you and or pick a fight.

If you are bulging the case, you are doing something wrong.
My first guess is that you are crimping too much. That will almost always bulge the case.
What kind of seating die are you using?

[Garyb]

Most everybody (including myself) seems to like the rifle, collet style FC. Why the heck doesn't Lee provide this style die for straight wall pistol? If you don't have a crimp groove this seems like a good solution. I use an M die for my cast reloads and the collet style crimp works great for closing up the case mouth.

I going to have to remove the carbide sizing ring in the pistol LFC as some have previously suggested and try that.

[mdi]

If you want a dedicated crimping die, look at Redding's Profile Crimp Die. I roll crimped all my .38/.357, .44 Spec./Mag. ammo with Lee dies until I got a turret press several years ago (I tried an FCD for my .44 Mag., but ruined a bunch of my prize .4315" cast bullets). Out of curiosity I got a Redding .38/.357 profile crimp die and have had zero problems and get a much better crimp (feels good during crimping, looks good, seems to be more consistent). Immediately got one for .44 and have used them on mebbe 6k rounds...

[jmort]

Lee Precision is currently selling "rifle" FCDs for .357 and .44 and .41. I just got two .357s. I use the handgun FCDs with jacketed bullets. You would be crazy not to use a roll crimp with heavy revolver loads or tube magazines in the field or for self defense.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Most everybody (including myself) seems to like the rifle, collet style FC. Why the heck doesn't Lee provide this style die for straight wall pistol? If you don't have a crimp groove this seems like a good solution. I use an M die for my cast reloads and the collet style crimp works great for closing up the case mouth.

I going to have to remove the carbide sizing ring in the pistol LFC as some have previously suggested and try that.
They do !
http://leeprecision.com/custom-factory-crimp-die-overruns/

[dragon813gt]

Lee Precision is currently selling "rifle" FCDs for .357 and .44 and .41. I just got two .357s. I use the handgun FCDs with jacketed bullets. You would be crazy not to use a roll crimp with heavy revolver loads or tube magazines in the field or for self defense.

Yep, I have the one for 357 and use it for my hunting loads. I've had no issues seating and crimping all in one step. But I'm going to run an experiment and see if the collet style FCD makes more accurate ammo. I don't see how it could possibly make it worse. And the control you have over the crimp means you get exactly what you want.

[Garyb]

You're sure are right JonB. They do offer a few calibers. I may have to get me that 45 Colt.

[williamwaco]

Rifle die for the .357?

Now that is a factory crimp die I would like to try.

Will it work on the .38 Special?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The 357 wouldn't work for 38 spl,
the collet is length specific.
I suppose the collet of a 357Mag could be machined for functioning with a 38 spl case
OR
for $25, you could special order one for 38 spl from Lee,
when they start accepting special orders again.
Jon

[CHX77]

Is it ok to use my lee fcd to crimp 38 spl .358 boolits ........?

Take one of your .358" boolits and see if it easily fits through the carbide ring in the FCD. If so, you should have no problem using it.

[jmort]

^ this is some common sense advice that seems too rare in the handgun FCD threads. If a seated Boolit makes it through then no problem.