45-70 "hunting" boolit

[4570forever]

I hunt deer in N. central MS. I shoot an "early" modern (no crossbolt safety) Marlin 1895 and an NEF Handi Rifle, may invest in a Stainless Steel Guide gun later.
I am looking for a cast/swaged bullet that will produce one of the following results BANG/flop or large,short blood trail - all discussions are based on PROPER bullet placement - I don't believe in shoot anywhere and pray - I have an obligation to the game.
Of course I want to avoid leading but need adquate vel for trajectory similar to that obtainable by equivalent wt jacketed boolits, ranges can vary from 25 yds on out. - with the "right" load I find the old girl fully capable of 250yd shots - maybe even 300 IF I do my part, and I wish to reduce the hold over requirement as much as possible to help me "do my part" right.
I have been disappointed w/jackets and the BANG/flop, and lack of blood trail ( bled inside a LOT) but not outside.
I remember seeing a picture of a lead boolit beautifully mushroomed back to the last driving band to some what larger than a quarter. I believe it was a .45 HP of some persuasion. Now that ought to produce BANG/flop or a massive, short blood trail.
Since this is hunting application I am interested in "store bought" if there is something availabe, but am willing to cast if thats the only way to get what I need.
I have done some casting in the past but it was long ago. I won't be going for volume production - probably just 300/400. I have a Lee 20# pot, and a large supply of pure lead and a medium supply of WW.

Now for the questions:
What boolit would you suggest?
Plain base or gas check?
What alloy?
Flat point or HP?
I am open to suggestions, cussin's, and discussin's.
Thank you for your inputs.
HL

[44man]

I feel you are looking for the wrong thing. Bang/flop can only be done with total destruction, spine or head hit.
The 45-70 is great with about any boolit as long as it is a little soft, even the round nose works well. You have to understand the deer can run after the hit so what you want is two holes for a good blood trail. A boolit that expands but keeps going all the way through is best. A large meplat on a soft or harder boolit is also good.
Never expect bang/flop, it just does not work unless you destroy all of the meat too. Even then you can expect a deer to go a long way. Mangled tissue can seal faster then clean cut and the trail will end fast.
You can blow up a deer's heart and it can make 100 yd's easy.
Deer are a lot tougher then you give them credit for.
Do you want meat or just a dead deer?
I have just exceeded over 360 deer kills and very few have dropped in their tracks no matter what gun or bow I used. My friend kills 12 to 17 deer a year and only uses High power rifles. He still loses deer once in a while and rarely drops deer on the spot.
I guess you could go to a 30mm cannon! :mrgreen: Then you don't have to gut or skin, just pick up pieces, already cooked too. :kidding:

[JDL]

Bang flops are only certian when the CNS is damaged, either head or spine. The .45-70 is great for leaving a blood trail most anyone can follow. I have used pure lead (paper patched) loaded to 1950 fps in my .45-70 and still the deer ran a ways but, only 20-30 yards. There's lots of good designs for the old .45 with the 45-300 GC RCBS being one of my favorite. -JDL

[45 2.1]

I'll have to disagree with the above opinions. Bang/flops occur when a bunch of energy is transfered inside the animal to a vital area. As an example, the states that allows 22 centerfires to be used have a lot of bang/flops when a lightly constructed bullet blows inside the ribcage in the vital areas. A 4570 can do the same thing. I've witnessed it by others and have done it myself while hunting out of state. A soft, light, gas checked hollow point flat nose pushed pretty hard will do this. The Gould hollow point properly alloyed will also. Paper patched pure lead boolits will also. In all these cases you will need a soft boolit that has a larger meplat. That vital area isn't where you think it is either. Mine have occured when the slug hits a small area over the heart about midway up the body or just slightly higher. Heart shot deer invariably run, at least those that i've killed.

[StrawHat]

The Gould hollow point properly alloyed will also.

Paper patched pure lead boolits will also.

The Gould bullet referenced is Lyman 457122. I cast mine 30/1 lead/tin.

It is a great bullet when cast properly and loaded to black powder velocities or a little more.

Great knock down due to expansion and good blood trails on pass throughs.

The paper patched lead bullets are good also if a bit harder to create.

Ken Waters wrote about the Gould bullet in some issue of Handloader. Paraphasing what he said ...if your 45 rifle won't produce good groups with the Gould bullet, sell it...

I do not have that much experience with it but apparently KW does.

I know that it has worked well for me in rolling blocks, a trapdoor, and a Siamese Mauser. Also a M98 Mauser in 458 that I loaded with black powder.

Try some.

Good luck

[4570forever]

"BANG/flop" is just a way of saying clean, quick, humane kill. Yes, nomally deer will run but a "BANG/flop doesn't run far. We have all seen the literal "BANG/flop with "heart/lung" hits - rare but can happen.
Strasborg "goat test" on hangun projectile performance found that in some instances a BANG/flop occurred when the projectile transferred enough energy to the tissue to cause a spike in blood pressure resulting in a blackout - hydraulic shock??? (how many of you remember that debate of years ago). I am not opening that can of worms! I am only interested in an EFFECTIVE load that will result in a quick, clean, humane kill/ large, short blood trail so there won't be any lost game. Some of our bottoms & cutover areas here a rabbit has trouble traversing so a large (short) blood trail aids in game recovery. Yes, I do prefer complete penetration to obtain the additional (and probably larger) blood trail.
I fully believe in the large dia., large meplat doing the job, and in a soft alloy probably getting mushrooming too. I have glanced at a Lyman 330 gr HP mold - I think it may be the "Gould", it looks interesting.
Thanks for the info and please keep it comming.
HL

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome to the board, 4570!

Look around here--I think it is "stickied"--about casting soft-point boolits. This is the route I'm taking for game boolits in 9.3 x 62 and 45-70, possibly other medium calibers like 30-06 as well.

One route I have yet to explore is to assess targeting differences between the soft-point boolits and there homogenous counterparts of the same design using the same powder charge. My preference would be see little or no trajectory/grouping difference, and this would allow the use of homogenous boolits for practice and sight-in, and set aside the labor-intensive soft-points for hunting use only.

[BruceB]

Friends;

In working with the two-alloy softpoints in my .416 Rigby, I find that the cast softpoints land right in the same group as the straight-wheelweight bullets from 100 yards. Therefore, practice for hunting with non-softpoints for hunting with softpoints, without changing the zero, is very feasible in my experience.

The weight difference is very slight; a .416 RCBS bullet made from 1/3 lead-2/3 WW weighs only about three grains more than the pure-WW equivalent at 365 grains.

In zeroing the rifle prior to the 2005 hunt, three-round groups were around 1.5" at 100 yards for both softpoints and non-softpoints, with velocity at 2050 fps. I fired a bunch of these just a couple days ago, and made two consecutive TEN-round groups under two inches from 100 yards.

The article on casting softpoints is indeed stickied, on the Moulds: Maintenance and Design forum.

[Scrounger]

Just a whacko thought.... Will a cast bullet dropped into a mold melt if the mold is allowed to rest on the melt in the pot? If so, we take a cast .22 or other small bullet cast of pure lead or soft alloy and drop it into a closed mold of .30, .35, .45 caliber or whatever. IF the bullet melts, the alloy will flow into the nose. We then finish filling the mold with harder alloy to get the bullet we want. Aw, just a crazy idea...

[montana_charlie]

I'll have to disagree with the above opinions.
I must strongly agree with this statement, but I will save actual discussion of the subject for a different thread.
CM

[4570forever]

Scrounger
Verily intelesting, verily, verily intelesting!!!
HL

[MT Gianni]

Just a whacko thought.... Will a cast bullet dropped into a mold melt if the mold is allowed to rest on the melt in the pot? If so, we take a cast .22 or other small bullet cast of pure lead or soft alloy and drop it into a closed mold of .30, .35, .45 caliber or whatever. IF the bullet melts, the alloy will flow into the nose. We then finish filling the mold with harder alloy to get the bullet we want. Aw, just a crazy idea...

That's what I have been doing this year with 32 RB in a 311 mold. It willmelt then procede as the BruceB sticky indicates. I have yet to shoot something with it though. Gianni

[45-70marlin]

45-70forever,
did the 45-70 jacketed bullet go clean threw the deer? if it did not, what bullet was it?

[freedom475]

I have a pic posted in the "Hunting with CB's" forum under the title Freedom475's Buck and Boolit. This is a pic of a "cast soft point" boolit recovered from a mule deer. This produced a definate "Bang-Flop" but it broke the spine.

I used the same gun/boolit/load combo an a cow elk this year and had almost the same result. The boolit recovered from the elk showed signs of "Washering" as the hard base was begining to cut through the mushroom. Elk was faceing straight-on, boolit hit in the briskot and was recovered in the inside loin.

These loads were quite slow so I bet if you leaned on them a little say 1500-2200fps they would be devistating.

After this years success I am a believer in the home-grown cast SP.

BruceB's sticky is a GREAT resource for making them. Thanks Bruce:mrgreen::Fire:

[waksupi]

It is a curiosity to me. I have used cast bullets for over 20 years hunting. I have used as small as the 6.5X55, up to the .45-70 Sharps, and the .44 magnum. In observing deer, antelope, elk, and buffalo I have shot with various calibers, it certainly appears that .35 caliber bullets kill quicker than the other diameters. Why? I'm not sure. I believe it is a combination of energy transfer, and a good wound channel. Most deer don't go more than maybe twenty yards, elk maybe 15 yards further. A majority have fell where they were hit, although it may have taken them a little bit to realise something was wrong. I have developed a firm opinion, that this is the best bore diameter for hunting purposes, given a good bullet design.

[Bass Ackward]

It is a curiosity to me. I have used cast bullets for over 20 years hunting. I have used as small as the 6.5X55, up to the .45-70 Sharps, and the .44 magnum. In observing deer, antelope, elk, and buffalo I have shot with various calibers, it certainly appears that .35 caliber bullets kill quicker than the other diameters. Why? I'm not sure. I believe it is a combination of energy transfer, and a good wound channel. Most deer don't go more than maybe twenty yards, elk maybe 15 yards further. A majority have fell where they were hit, although it may have taken them a little bit to realise something was wrong. I have developed a firm opinion, that this is the best bore diameter for hunting purposes, given a good bullet design.


Bold statement. But hard to argue with results huh?

Because the science of killing is still incomplete today, our pursuit of the perfect launching and impact system wanders the bore diameter spectrum.

What the 35 offers to me, (so far) is wider flexibility for error on all the variables from bullet design to hardness to impact velocity to shot placement than any other cast caliber to produce the energy transfer and penetration required to combine both shock, along with the typical superior penetration qualities of cast to produce "possible" bang, flop kills.


Mr. Forever,

I would also agree with Bob above that metal softness for 45s makes all the difference in the world. Especially on smaller bodied, thin skinned game which is how I classify even large deer.

So you have two paths that you can take: 1. Massive education and experience through trial and error bouncing from bullet design to bullet design. (Once you are hooked, you will do this anyway as you won't believe us.) Or 2. (K.I.S.S.) Buy the Gould HP bullet.

Buy one of those molds and just watch it work assuming that you can make it shoot to your satisfaction. Ask and someone may send you some samples. Melt candle wax in the cavity if you need to harden it a little to achieve more velocity or accuracy. Most .... error proof, 45 caliber bullet I ever used. (But I was one of the hard heads that chose the first choice cause I thought it would be different for me. :grin: )

Your wildest and most difficult expectation for cast in the 45 is going to be range. You need a good ladder sight and learn how to use it or a 35 caliber to do that. :grin: You can buy two 35 calibers for less than the price of a good sight. Hint, hint. :grin:

[45 2.1]

You need a good ladder sight and learn how to use it or a 35 caliber to do that. :grin:

Burris rifle scope company makes a reticle for their scopes they call the Ballisti-Plex, or something like that. Check it out, it allows you to use the 45 caliber rifles to obscene ranges once you learn the ticks.

[4570forever]

45-70Marlin
It was an early (more rounded profile, not the newer more "truncated cone" profile) Hornady 300 gr. HP, H4198, CCI LR/BR, vel 1950/2000. 100 lb doe @ 100 yds, entered just behind the shoulder exited center of off side rib cage, ran 40/50 yds. Exit hole not much bigger than entrance, hit both lungs and top of heart, massive internal bleeding, very little external. When I opened her up it was like someone poured out a 5 gal bucket of blood all at once. The bullet did its job effectively but I would liked to have seen an external blood trail, as I like to say, "large, short" blood trail.
HL

[pdawg_shooter]

After five years of trying I have finally found THE load for my Marlin 1895g. Does everything I want done and is still shootable. I started with new Remington brass, annealed the first ¾ inch using the melted lead method, belled with a Lee expander and primed with CCI 200. The powder charge is 52gr AA 2495. I started with 48 and worked up with no signs of pressure. This is a compressed load, even using a 16 inch drop tube. The magic bullet is cast in a Lyman 451114 mould. The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 ½ parts linotype, and ½ part tin. The bullet drops from the mould .451, 430gr and is ready for patching. I make my patches from 16lb green bar computer paper, cut 2.750 long on a 60* angle 1.500 high. I dip in water and wrap twice around the bullet. They are left to dry overnight, then lubed with BAC. Then the tails are clipped and the bullet is run through a .459 Lee sizing die. I seat them to an OCL of 2.580. These shoot clover leaf groups at 25 yards and into 1.75 at 100. This is with a Lyman 66 rear sight and factory front sight. Not bad for 55 year old eyes. Bullet performance on game is all one could ask for. I’ll not quit experimenting, but how does one improve on perfection?

[44man]

I have had deer drop with the .44 mag and the old army cap and ball. Very little meat damage and no bloodshot meat. These drop shots usually involve some part of a shoulder or both. It doesn't take a lot of energy. Most of my deer never make 30 yd's with other hits.
Too explosive a boolit in the shoulders will lose a lot of meat and that is why I say destruction of tissues. A chest hit behind the shoulders is good but can't always be made. 2 of my deer this season involved shooting through tiny openings in trees and brush. There was no choice in placing the boolit exactly where I wanted. Plus I was shooting offhand with revolvers at 55 yd's. Neither deer went far but one was shot with the 45-70 BFR and the 300 gr Hornady. He was bloodshot from the back of the head to the back of the ribcage. It took all day to clean the meat. He hung for 3 days and never stopped pooling blood on the ground and butchering was a huge mess. Meat damage was slight but there was blood everywhere. This does not bother guys that have someone else do the cutting but it bothers me.
It is a balance between blowing up meat or making it bloodshot and getting clean meat. Arrows have always been the best in this regard.
I don't know about you fellas but the shoulders are better eating then the hind quarters. I hate to ruin backstraps too.
Yes a boolit/bullet can blow the lungs to mush but what happens if you hit the shoulder or bone? I try hard to cleanly kill the deer yet get good clean meat.
If you hunt for horns only, I guess it doesn't matter as much.
I also understand about some hunting areas that are full of orange coats. If your deer goes too far some other hunter will be gutting it. I have seen this in other states and am glad I don't have that problem here. I can't even give a deer away to another hunter.
I am different and if I seen another hunter standing by my deer waiting for me, I would ask if he wanted it. If he is gutting it or dragging it, I would get angry, shrug my shoulders and go hunting again. I would rather hunt then butcher anyway.
When friends come to hunt, I give them my best stands. I would do the same for any of you! :drinks:

[lovedogs]

You can look back and see one of my recent posts on this subject of cast vs. jacketed. My kills with cast are limited and almost all have been pure lung shots, with little or no bone struck. The deer all ran a considerable distance. Dead on their feet but still able to dash a ways. Killed for sure but running until they bled out. I suppose a solid bone hit, shoulder or other large bone, would have put them down quicker. But with jacketed all have been complete pass-throughs also and the blood trial was huge. Most dropped on the spot. Only one made it about 20 yds. I used a Remington 300 gr. HP from Midway loaded to 1840 FPS.

[jh45gun]

Yea you do not need to hit them in the head or spine to drop a deer. Both Shoulders work as well as the heart at times. I have shot deer in the heart and had them drop on the spot. I have also had them run a 100 yards or points inbetween the two. Only deer I ever shot with my 45/70 dropped on the spot the bullet hit one shoulder and came out the opposite rear leg breaking bone there too. Deer dropped on the spot and was dead right now. I would hunt with it if it was lighter but being a Rolling Block and a 32 full octagon barrel at 12 pounds it is a bit heavy unless on stand and a rest.

[jh45gun]

You can look back and see one of my recent posts on this subject of cast vs. jacketed. My kills with cast are limited and almost all have been pure lung shots, with little or no bone struck. The deer all ran a considerable distance. Dead on their feet but still able to dash a ways. Killed for sure but running until they bled out. I suppose a solid bone hit, shoulder or other large bone, would have put them down quicker. But with jacketed all have been complete pass-throughs also and the blood trial was huge. Most dropped on the spot. Only one made it about 20 yds. I used a Remington 300 gr. HP from Midway loaded to 1840 FPS.


I shot a doe with my 308 Encore Pistol using a cast bullet. Hit her in the chest and had a complete pass through and out of all the deer I have shot with a gun never seen so much blood she went 30 yards and dropped and she had sprayed blood all over the place. Shot a buck in the neck with the same load only the bullet was a round nose he dropped right there. Got up and dropped again. did a couple times but I shot him again in the neck to keep him down. I think if that bullet would have been a flat point like the one I shot with the doe he would have stayed down the first time. That flat point makes a difference.

[NickSS]

I have use the 45-70 for deer and elk and have been satisfied with the results. I have used the RCBS 457-325-FP for most of my hunting and have had really good results with it using 30-1 aloy boolits in both my Sharps and Marlin rifles. My loads are not fast being in the 1400 fps range but a good hit in the chest area nets me meat. The bullets usually go all the way through on a broadside shot and mushroom nicely. Blood trails are another thing. I have had deer that poured out blood and went only a few yards and others that droped even faster. However, on average they go between 20 and 40 yards before falling. I got the same results with a 30-06 with jacketed bullets and more meat damage. So slow heavy slugs work for me as less meat is damaged and they fall down fairly fast. I have only had two animals drop in their tracks one was a Moose Shot with a 338 Magnum at 125 yards through the sholder and the other was a deer shot through the head with a 30 carbine at 30 feet. Other than that all of the animals I have shot have taken at least a couple of jumps before droping.

[waksupi]

Here I go, wondering again. It seems most say thier deer fall within 20-40 yards after being hit. And, they are concerned about some other hunter claiming thier deer. Just how close together do people hunt, in some of these areas? If everyone is within 40 yards of each other, I would want to be shooting from an underground bunker!

[PatMarlin]

My last deer bang flopped with the cheap LEE 320gr plain base out of my guide gun.

[Ricochet]

That's no joke, Ric, that's why I got afraid to go out on public land in "gun season." Especially after running into a guy who told me "I ain't seen none, but I got off some real good sound shots!" "Sound shots?" "Yeah, you know, when you hear one in the bushes and take a shot at it."

[44man]

Some deer can go a LONG way after a good hit. That is where hunting in public areas becomes a choice of dropping them fast or letting another hunter claim it---Read BOOB not hunter. If I had a deer die near me, I would wait for the tracker or go looking for him. It is not my deer and I would do all I could to put the shooter and the deer together. I would give up my hunting time to help. Then I would help drag it out.
I would be proud of that but could not live with myself to take another mans deer.
But stop and think what is running around in the woods!
When I killed deer in PA with my bow and hung it near my tent, I would tie a rope around the feet and run it under the leaves into the tent, then tie it to a stack of pots and pans with silverware inside. You will not believe how many times the stack fell and I heard footsteps running off. If the jerks would have asked for the deer nicely in the day, I would have given it to them. Let them go home and brag!
I have been so successful with deer that as long as the meat does not go to waste someone that is ethical can have it. Making a friend is better then having a thief steal any day of the week. Someday that friend might be a good hunter and do the same thing. The thief will never amount to anything. Greed has no place in the field.

[lovedogs]

Waksupi... my concern about how far a deer might travel after taking a solid hit is that in some of the areas I hunt the brush is so thick you can't even crawl through it. If a deer runs into this stuff it's really hard to track and recover them, especially in dry conditions without snow to aid in the tracking. I've only lost one deer and that was 'cuz I ran out of light. Stupid me... I shouldn't have shot it that close to dark without having the equipment to look for it when it got dark. It only went a little ways but I couldn't find it. It's bothered me for years so I try to not get in any situation that would result in a lost animal.

[jh45gun]

Well don't beat your self up too hard non of us like to loose or waste a game animal. BUT it does happen. During rifle season I also carry a shotgun in the truck in case I see a grouse. I saw one and I shot it and I flattened it and it did the wing flapping on the ground ect. I put the gun back in the case and went to drive up to it and pick it up. While doing that it suddenly got up and shook its self and flew off. across a larger swamp. Now the way that bird acted when I hit it I know it should have been a dead bird but that sucker did not evidently know it. I use heavy premium High Base loads too instead of the cheap promo stuff. I just aquired a couple of loaders so I will be loading my own now but it was not the fault of the shells that bird just refused to die where I wanted it to and I am sure some fox or yote got a good meal on me.

[HEAD0001]

I am a handicapped hunter, so I definitely try to drop the deer in it's track's. A sixty yard run can make my recovery of the deer a very difficult thing. I hunt with a few different 45-70's.

I cast a 405 grain Lyman bullet. I load it with 40.0 grains of RL7. No gas check. Approximate velocity of around 1600 fps from my different rifles. My alloy is straight WW. I do not have any leading problems in any of my rifle's.

I always hold on, and break down the front shoulder. If you bust the off side shoulder, or both shoulder's, then Bang Flop usually occurs. I will admit that I DO NOT take a bad shot. Period. I believe as you do about the importance of a quick kill. Tom.

[jack19512]

Here I go, wondering again. It seems most say thier deer fall within 20-40 yards after being hit. And, they are concerned about some other hunter claiming thier deer. Just how close together do people hunt, in some of these areas? If everyone is within 40 yards of each other, I would want to be shooting from an underground bunker!





Believe it or not I find that situation here where I hunt a lot. Too much private land and not enough public land for hunting. But for the most part people have been very civil. :Fire:

[44man]

The majority of hunters are great, it is only the few bad apples. They run in pairs a lot. Once in a great while a single hunter will cause a problem.
I watched my friend drop a deer with a great shot, then this other guy came up and said he shot at it and it was his. Funny the deer had only one hole right where my friend aimed and in the only possible spot it could be hit from the angle of the shot. They had a heated argument. I had to step in and tell the jerk I seen the shot and the impact. Only then did he give up.
I have heard of jerks stealing deer at gunpoint.
It doesn't matter what sport or business you are in, you will find this type personality.
I am so glad they don't come here to this site, they are not welcome. I would hunt with all of you! :drinks:

[PatMarlin]

I'm so glad I live in an area where this has not yet been a problem.

I've got an old life long friend who is a problem. He doesn't practice shooting. Get's buck fever so bad and gets so nervous he fires and misses, or takes bad shots.

Now he figures he has the problem solved as he bought a brand new Remington 700 in 7mm with a 5.5 x 16x 50 scope and figures he can reach out and shoot at anything and improve his chances.

Thank god he lives down south in my home town and is to lazy to drive up here..:roll: