differences in brass companies...mainly flash holes.

[mozeppa]

Hi, didn't know where i should stick this ...so its here!:grin:

after studying 45 acp brass for a while, i come to the conclusion that all brands are not equal.
(yeah ...some of you knew that already!)

when looking thru my 13 odd reloading data books i noted that some times you'll see a *
or ** denoteing that "federal cases were used in this or that particular load....or winchester...or starline....or speer.

"whats the difference." i asked of myself.

flash hole size was the apparent answer!....and has to be the deciding factor in why the data researchers say use this much of
"this powder" or "that powder" when using brand x case...brand y case...or brand z case. and use this /that primer.

so ....being "OCD" and collect everything...i have 60 odd different headstamps that i've come across in my journey.
i have a pin gauge set, .060 to .250 and used it on every shell case in my collection and found some surprizing results!

there are several sizes of flash holes....with several simularities and some big differences.
(to me that translates to using another brand of case so long as the flash hole is the same size.)
use this info as you see fit ...or not at all..you may not be as anal as i .
your mileage may vary.

maybe its good info ...maybe i wasted my time....you decide.

without rambling on further...heres the list.

ACP---------------= .076
AGUILA----------= .082
AMERC-----------= .081 (CONSIDERED BY MANY TO BE JUNK ...AS THE FLASHOLES ARE OFF CENTER)
AP-----------------= .078
ASYM-------------= .081
AUSA--------------= .076
BHA---------------= .075
BLAZER -lg primer-= .100
BLAZER-sm primer-= .078
BROWNING-------= .081
BVAC--------------= .074
CBC----------------= .080
CCC----------------= .080
CCI-----------------= .100
CORBON----------= .081
EC------------------= .080 / .081
FC------------------= .080
FEDERAL-lg primer-= .100
FEDERAL-sm primer= .078
FIOCCHI-----------= .072 (4TH SMALLEST FLASH HOLE)
FRONTIER---------= .080
GECO---------------= .075
G.F.L.---------------= .079
HORNADY---------= .079
HSM----------------= .100
*I* ------------------= .087
ICC-----------------= .080
IMI------------------= .077 OR .080
KFA-----------------= .080
L.C.------------------= .077
MFS-----------------= .075
MIDWAY-----------= .080 (PROBABLY MADE BY STARLINE)
NNY-----------------= .078
PA-RH---------------= .081
P.C.CO--------------= .078 (ALSO FLASH HOLES OFF CENTER AS BAD AS AMERC IF NOT WORSE.)
PMC-----------------= .080
PMP------------------= .082
PRECISION----------= .080
PPU------------------= .078
RA--------------------= .080
REM UMC-----------= .080
RP--------------------= .080
RWS------------------= .073 (3RD SMALLEST FLASH HOLE)
S&B-------------------= .074 / .075
SPEER-lg primer------= .100
SPEER-sm primer-----= .080
STARLINE------------= .081
S&W------------------= .081
TOP BRASS----------= .071 (2ND SMALLEST FLASH HOLE)
TULAMMO----------= .074
TZZ MATCH---------= .076
TZZ -------------------= .082
WCC------------------= .079 / .080
WILSON--------------= .081
WIN-------------------= .081
WINCHESTER--------= .081
WIN NT-sm primer----= .081
WESTERN------------= .074
W.R.A.- with dots------= .069 (and is the smallest)
WRA--without dots-----= .079
60A---------------------= .080
triangle symbol on head--= .078

[Hardcast416taylor]

I think you answered the question of why people want fired brass of just 1 headstamp.Robert

[CPL Lou]

Thank you for sharing !

CPL Lou

[mozeppa]

I think you answered the question of why people want fired brass of just 1 headstamp.Robert

yeah i have 25,000 40 cals ...trying to get to one headstamp ...or hole size.

[mozeppa]

p.s. are there any companies making 45 acp that i missed?
if so send me one and i'll add it to my list (and collection)

i do have a 1933 dated "F A" but i don't want to take it down to add.

[mikeym1a]

So, what's the answer? I have always favored Speer, perhaps because their books tutored me in reloading. They seem to have the largest flash hole for large primers. How large is it to be? Some say to enlarge the flash holes for light loads. Is there any particular size that is better than any other? From the list, .080 seems to be the norm. I guess if I have a mixed lot of cases, make them all the same for uniformity of firing? Thanks. mikey:-D

[6bg6ga]

Good information and reason for grouping brass according to the headstamp

[dondiego]

Would reaming all flash holes to say, 0.100 be a way to more effectively get consistency? I realized brass thickness would play a part here too.

[osteodoc08]

Interesting read. I vote for sticky status. Perhaps if someone has a different brand of brass, we can send it to mozeppa to add to the list.

Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to the collection at this time.

[6bg6ga]

I believe in the past there was mention of a specific case for a maximum load which may have been selected due to cartridge thickness.

[6bg6ga]

Would reaming all flash holes to say, 0.100 be a way to more effectively get consistency? I realized brass thickness would play a part here too.

I'm going to guess here that internal volume comes into play more that the primer hole diameter.

[mozeppa]

I'm going to guess here that internal volume comes into play more that the primer hole diameter.

good point.

[MtGun44]

+1 on internal volume being a more important variable than flash hole
size. No doubt that you want consistency all across the board, but I would
guess that internal volume, followed immediately by brass hardness
at the case mouth would be a couple of your most critical variables.

The brass hardness idea comes from some data that indicates greatest
accuracy from once fired brass, with 2nd and subsequent reloadings
dropping off a good bit. Of course, this is still a relatively small effect,
and if you and your gun make 2-4" groups at 25 yds, it will never
be seen. But with a very accurate gun and skilled shooter (or
Ransom Rest) smaller effects can be noted.

Bill

[nanuk]

internal volume is ONLY relevent in once fired brass after a full power load.

remember, the "Internal Volume" is really the gun's chamber, minus the amount of brass....

so, heavier/thicker brass, less volume
But the only way to know that is to have a standard size. (or fire and then FL size, and trim to consistant length)

[fcvan]

I spent last evening teaching a new Reloader while loading some 300 AAC Blackout. The brass was converted from same head stamp, same lot, all once fired from the same 5.56 AR. I had him weight each case and each charge of powder and explained how things like case volume affect accuracy. Things were close enough for our needs as we were loading plinker ammo with cast boolits. I also explained that if we were loading for extreme accuracy we would be very picky as to all the little variables that make the difference between putting them in the same hole or minute-of-tin can accuracy.

Tonight I'm going to have him weigh all of his once fired Remington factory 300 brass. He bought that stuff when he bought his rifle. I has never seen such cruddy ammo from a factory in my life. Wrinkled bullets, dented scratched and highly oxidized brass, and wouldn't stay on paper at 50 feet. This weekend, we are taking the test loads to the range, along with the chronograph, reloading press and gear. Hopefully, we will be able to fine tune the loads for his rifle and show him where attention to little details really affect accuracy.

[tomme boy]

That one with the triangle is Norinco Chinese ammo. There are other Winchester also. A few years back when they first tried the non-toxic they had a hole about as large as a small primer. For plinking ammo I don't care what the headstamps are.

[CastingFool]

My first experience reloading 45 acp involved PMC brass. Found out primer holes were off center. Loaded 50 rounds, the rest went into my scrap pile. The loaded rounds are still on my shelf. Won't feed properly either.

[detox]

From my experience Starline pistol brass appears to have the most uniform flash holes with no burrs, case walls are very uniform thickness also.

[jonp]

Wow....you need a hobby :wink:

[6bg6ga]

My experience with my 45acp is this.... I purchase floor pick up brass of many different manufacturers and most of the shoothing is at 30 yards and accuracy is great.

With my 45 carbine shooting was increased to 100 yards and I was happy with 2.5-3" groups. If I understand correctly using one brand only should increase accuracy

at extended ranges.

[ubetcha]

I have some 45acp brass that has a larger flash hole than others. I believe they are Winchester. Has anyone noticed a difference in pressures or anything detrimental if small or large hole brass were loaded the same with primer, powder or bullet. I no longer have a 45, but I gave most of my brass to my brother because a friend of his recently purchased one. I did not give him the large hole brass mainly because I wasn't sure if the larger hole brass need to loaded different.

[6bg6ga]

There was a comment about the case being an extension of the chamber and I don't buy that until the bullet has left the casing. The reason is this .... inside the case there is a volume and the volume can change as a result of thickness of the brass and length. I don't see that primer hole size comes into play other than its ability to direct the spark to the powder for ignition. The older reloading manuals would state a accurate or a maximum load using a specific case. Now, upon ignition pressure builds until the bullet leaves the case. Different cases= different volume=different pressures.

Reason for innacuracies with a mixed headstamp are simply different case volumes which equates to different pressures which in my warped mind = different powder load of possibly .1-.3 gr of powder. All cases being equal would equate to no devaition in the powder load.

[captaint]

I would have to agree that the internal volume of the BRASS, after sizing, is what will affect pressure and therefore accuracy/consistency. There are certainly other factors, but some are more important than others. Mike

[hickfu]

Wow, I just went through my 45acp brass a couple days ago and was dismayed by the amount of burrs to the inside of the flash holes. Hell, some were darn near non-existent. I went through everyone of them with a drill bit to knock off the burrs and put a very tiny recess on the inside flash hole. I never want to do that again but I will when I pick up more brass.... I dont have any unloaded 9mm yet but Im dreading them as well....


Doc

[paul edward]

Noticed big flash holes in some, but not all, FC cases.

I now have enough range pickup 45 brass that I can afford to be fussy. I sort for my two preferred headstamps, and trade or give away the oddballs.

[gwpercle]

I'm not sure if reloading, especially with cast boolits is a hobby a person with OCD should have. All the variables could keep them entertained measuring, weighing, making lists, recording data and creating spreadsheets to no end and never get around to doing much shooting.....On the other hand it might drive them stark raving mad.

When it comes to 45 acp I pick up brass where I find it , load it and shoot it . I do inspect it and maybe run it thru the case polisher.... Not much into weighing and measuring empty cases .......life's too short for that, I want as much range time as possible.

Gary

[Shiloh]

There was a link on Cast Boolits or one of the other forums with pictires of radically off center flash holes as well as flash holes that had the web ripped out creating a flash chasm. I did a short search bu no luck.

Shiloh

[mold maker]

You guys frustrate the heck out of me. I just finished hand sorting 4600 pieces of 45 ACP by head stamp, after cleaning and polishing.
Now you've convinced me I need to do it all over with another criteria.
I did check for primer size along the way, and my old eyes are about looking backwards.

[Texantothecore]

I started using a flash hole uniformer and have been quite pleased with the results. I found least one case which was bit of a mystery as the flash hole was so blocked that I couldn't figure out how it fired.

[mozeppa]

I'm not sure if reloading, especially with cast boolits is a hobby a person with OCD should have. All the variables could keep them entertained measuring, weighing, making lists, recording data and creating spreadsheets to no end and never get around to doing much shooting.....On the other hand it might drive them stark raving mad.

Gary


really?? i'm not that bad!

signed: Adrian Monk

[10mmShooter]

I do flash hole ream and deburr and primer pocket uniform only on my .308 LC brass for my M1a, for pistol.....ha I do none of that, but I do sort by headstamp so my crimps are consistant, other wise varying case length will mess up your crimping.

[Banjobird66]

So on the same note. Is that the reason, blank rounds should not be used for live loads? The only difference I have noted is the size of the flash hole. Wt. brass thickness, diameter, length, manufacturer all the same. Flash hole much larger on the blank.

[lka]

I sort rifle but not pistol, pistol just gets a quick inspection, cleaned, quick inspection and loaded oh then a quick inspection.. Rifle gets a lot more attn, especially the mag stuff.

[C. Latch]

I'm not sure if reloading, especially with cast boolits is a hobby a person with OCD should have.



I'm guessing that somewhere there's a shooter than keeps inventory of everything he has in stock via a spreadsheet, and there's a column for the last time he counted the pins in his SS tumbling media, how many times it's been used, and how many pins he's lost since he bought it.

[gray wolf]

My 44 mag off a sand bag rest shoots 3/4" groups one after the other if I don't screw up. My brass is range P/U
lend me and some given to me, I think I have every head stamp made ( almost ) I trim to length, load and shoot.
So your saying i could shoot better with all the same flash holes ?
Now for my rifle it's a bit different.

Sam

[C. Latch]

Ok, I admit....after sort of laughing at this thread, last night I grabbed some .45 cases to reload and looked at the flash holes before priming.

Wow.

Little holes, big holes, oblong holes, cloverleaf-shaped holes, and everything in between.

[6bg6ga]

I've looked at my flash holes too. All my brass a mixed bunch. In a perfect world sorting out the brass by manufacturer should equal better accuracy. Thus equal sized flash holes should equal better accuracy? Lets see what the flash holes do..put simply they allow the primer to ignite the powder. So, as long as the powder touches off who cares?

[HeavyMetal]

If you think flash holes are big news buy a primer pocket reaming tool and do a few 45 case's!

The amount of brass that come out of the average 45 case, or most others, will amaze you.

I got into reaming primer pockets years ago, it only needs to be done once just like flash hole uniforming, because I could never get a primer to "seat just below flush" as suggestd by every loading manual I ever read.

Now for years I just ran my pistol brass through the Dillon and it worked great, and still does, but after prepping my brass, weekends watching a good john wayne movie, I find groups are more "uniform" and tighter, long distance shooting has benifited as well.

Case volume is a much bigger player in loads, so I sort by HS, but a blocked flash hole is not a big help!