Empty Lube Gooves?

[Mik]

Hi Everyone,

New reloader here.

I bought some of these .311 154gr bullets from hunters supply to shoot form my M94 30-30 and I have a couple of questions.

97766

First, can anyone identify the mold this bullet was dropped from? The closest I can guess is RCBS 30-150 FN but I'm not sure.

Second, I used a .311 Lee push-through to crimp on some gas checks. With the gas checks on, there is an empty lube groove between the top of the gas check and the next closest driving band. I don't have an efficient way to fill this lube groove so I left it empty. I used RCBS load data for a 148 gr cast bullet and loaded 10 of them over 20gr H4198 for a velocity of approx 1700fps. At 50 yards out of a M94, they shot a group under 1", point of aim = point of impact. At 100 yards, the group opened to 3.5" and was centered 4" below the point of aim.

I didn't expect that much drop at 1700 fps. Is it possible the empty lube groove is causing that much drag or am i just not getting 1700fps at the muzzle?

Thanks. Mike

[btroj]

Doesn't have anything to do with that empty space. If the lube works right the lube grooves should all be empty in flight, the lube should have flung out at the muzzle.

I bet the velocity may he part of it but that much drop doesn't surprise me at all. Just physics at work.

[user55645]

Is the groove filled before you size and is coming apart?
I dont know all your specifics so I can not extrapolate velocity, but using the one given, I figure you should be -2.5" @ 100yds.
To get -4" @ 100yds, I get a muzzle velocity of 1400. Well below your calculation.
Try a few, same everything, but put some lube in front groove with fingers.
That will give you your answer and maybe come across something else.

[grouch]

Probably o.k. The sights are not much above the bore, the bullet has probably gone as high as it's going at 50yds and is probably already headed down hill. Without a chronograph, you would likely have to sight at 100yds and check the drop at 200 to get e reasonable guess.
Grouch

[Mik]

btoj, good to know about the lube coming off of the bullet. Must just be a velocity thing.

User, I get near the same figures, I just can't believe that 20 grains of H4198 is only giving me 1400 fps. That's why i questioned the aerodynamics of the bullet. Part of the reason I'm trying to identify the bullet is so I can have an idea of the ballistic coefficient. However, giving it a second run through the calculator, the bullet would have to have a BC of .07 to drop that much at 1700 fps. The BC can't be that low - that's foster slug territory!

grouch, good advice, I'll try that.

Thanks for the responses

[bhn22]

Is that an actual gas check design, or is it a bevel base? Bevel base bullets aren't intended to have GCs stuck to their base, they're likely to come off and drop in the case when you seat the bullet. This creates a potentially hazardous situation of having a secondary projectile with an unpredictable trajectory.

Flat point bullets are not flat shooters. I am a mite confused though, in your original post you state that 20.0 gr of IMR4198 is giving you 2000 FPS, in your latest post, that number drops to 1400 FPS. Then you state that you do not have a chronograph. Do you actually know what your velocities are, or are you trying to crunch numbers to fit the results you're seeing? The velocity information in reloading manuals is ambitious at best. At the worst, it's flatout fantasy. Never rely on velocity information in books, they are not shooting your rifle, your ammo, your range, under your conditions. If velocity is important, get a chronograph and trust only the data you generate yourself.

[Mik]

You can't see it in the picture, but there is a distinct right angle after the last driving band that leads into the GC recess. I don't think its a bevel base. The GCs appear to be seated securely and I didn't notice any lying on the ground down range.

Published load data indicates 20gr of H4198 under a 148 grain GC bullet should yield ~1700fps. Like you said, i don't have a chronograph. I'm trying to back into the actual velocities based on what I saw - 4" bullet drop from 50 to 100 yards. When I do the calculation, I come up with about 1400 fps which seems like it can't be right.

Its good to know that published velocities aren't always accurate. As a new reloader, I was concerned I was missing something that was causing a result much different from what I expected based on published data.

Good advice on the chronograph. Just a matter of $.

[willvabch]

My 2¢ is the upper groove is the crimp groove. The base looks like a gas check base. Weigh it, and get a Lyman s cast bullet book. I will see if I can ID the bullet tonight with my old midway catalog.

[bhn22]

Everything costs money. Sometimes these things interfere with the little things in life, like sleeping indoors, and eating regularly. Don't sweat the velocity at this point, you won't be able to extrapolate anything meaningful with the information you have. 1700 FPS looks like a pretty realistic guess, at this point, with the resources you have available, I'd suggest adjusting the sights to zero the rifle at 100 yards to the sights, if that is intended distance. Then reshoot the 50 yard distance and see what that looks like. Are you planning on hunting with this combination? I'd suggest bumping your load a mite to get closer to the 2000 fps mark for hunting. You can use standard jacketed 30-30 loads with gaschecked 30-30 bullets, but try adjusting the sights first and then you'll have a better idea of what you're up against. I did check the ballistic coefficient, and drop tables for a similar cast bullet design with a 1600 FPS muzzle velocity, and they are in line with what you're experiencing. I think a simple sight adjustment might make the whole process fall into focus a little better. If you have ballistics tables available, look at BC .134. I compared it to a jacketed 30-30 bullet at the same velocity, and this seems to bear the scenario out for the velocity you're at. The jacketed bullet had a higher BC, and dropped over 2.5 inches between 50 & 100 yards at 1700 FPS MV.

[Mik]

Guys,

Thanks for the help with this. I love the fact that people on this forum take time out of their day to not only answer, but research a question! What a group.

I'd like the load to be an all-purpose load. Fast enough to hunt to 150 yds and slow enough to shoot steel at the range I use (requires mv of less than 2000 fps within 100 yds)Seems like the best thing to do is add a little powder and bump the sights.

By the way, I'm quietly thrilled that a cartridge made by me, a guy who can't color in the lines, shoots 3 MOA from a lever gun. Love this hobby.

[mpmarty]

Be very careful about "bumping" up the load. I'd change to a slower powder first like 3031 or 4895 and start over.

[bhn22]

My information came from the same manual he's using, and was cross-referenced against IMRs jacketed data, as well as Hornadys jacketed data. There is still room the work with here.

[josper]

My 2¢ is the upper groove is the crimp groove. The base looks like a gas check base. Weigh it, and get a Lyman s cast bullet book. I will see if I can ID the bullet tonight with my old midway catalog. +1 my thoughts also.

[Mik]

98010

That's what the bullets look like when I load them into the case. The "empty groove" I was referring to is shown by the blue arrow.

[btroj]

That isn't a big deal. Ignore it. It isn't causing any grief at all. Be more concerned about finding spent bullets that have some lube in the grooves but only on some bullets.

[prs]

A typical commercial boolit with UPS lube. The lube is very suitable to avoid shipping damage, but not so much for the intended use. Some venders might agree to use a softer lube if you ask and promise not to complain about some lube loss in shipping. NRA 50:50 would serve well at that velocity.

prs

[Char-Gar]

If the maker had lubed the gas check shank you would have a mess on your hand seating and crimping the gas checks after purchase. Most often we lubricate after the gas check installed that that gets the gas check shank lubed.

I would consider those groups to be about what a 94 will do particularly if you are running the rounds through the magazine.

If you want to flatten the trajectory, add more velocity. I pay no attention to what data says the velocity to be. At best those figures are ball park and often not even in the park.

[C. Latch]

You can always hand-lube the other groove if it bothers you.

[Beagle333]

If it bothers you and you want to know for certain if that is part of the problem, put the GC on em, then pan lube that section (or better yet, dip lube it) and run em through your push-thru sizer again to clean em up. It'll work great for filling that little gap. 8-)



*****Beat me by 1 second!!!!

[Garyb]

If you need more lube I would use Recluse's 45/45/10 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?67654-Tumble-Lubing-Made-Easy-amp-Mess-Free) tumble lube. Fast, easy and works good. Or you can buy it premixed from one of the vendors here (http://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=31)

[Mik]

I remember reading somewhere, possibly the Missouri Bullet Company website, that there really is no way to efficiently mass produce gas checked bullets.

So far, all of the commercial casters I've located that sell lubed and checked bullets sized to .311 have prices starting around $25 per 100. That's on par with the cost of jacketed bullets from the major manufacturers. My guess is that leaving the checks off is one of the reasons Hunters Supply can sell these bullets at $70 per 500.

I might give the hand lubing and dip lubing a try just for kicks. The only lube I have on hand is the Lee liquid alox. Is that appropriate for either method. Seems like it would be a mess.

[C. Latch]

I hand-lube everything that I don't powder coat, and there's no way I'd try it with liquid Alox.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but Alox is messy and stinky. I have really developed an affinity for a mixture of blue lithium grease and beeswax; it's easy to mix together, using two common ingredients, and is much easier to hand-lube with than the beeswax/olive oil/ dab of everything I had on hand concoction that I started with.

[Garyb]

45/45/10 is not the same is liquid alox. Read the afore mentioned thread and see what others have to say. You can make your own 45/45/10 using the Alox you have by buying some Johnson's paste wax and mineral spirits. Just saying that I like the ease and so do a lot of others on this forum. It's not messy like pure liquid alox

[Mik]

Thanks all for your responses.

I went back and loaded 20 more cartridges with 21gr H4198 (one grain more than I had been using). I loaded 10 of them with the lube groove above the gas check empty, and 10 with the lube groove hand filled with Lee Liquid Alox (yes, it was a mess). I noticed no difference between the two in point of impact or accuracy at 100yds.

It appears the additional grain of powder was the magic touch. I got a couple of 2" groups @ 100. Zeroed at 100 yards, the impact was +1.5" at 50. I can live with that.

Now the real question: I found a combination that works for my .30-30 and I intend to stop fidgeting with it. Is that possible?:wink:

[crazy mark]

Not if you spend time on this site. You will always be trying to improve.