? Lee Hardness Tester and water-quenching boolits

[xsquidgator]

New caster here, just got started a few weeks ago or so with casting. Pretty much a Lee melter/mould setup for 45ACP, 357, and 9mm boolits. I've been reading around here about water quenching, alloying and the like, but I have some doubts or odd things that I can't explain, thought I would seek some advice here.

Most of my casting material is some medical waste lead, that I thought at least would be just pure lead, pretty soft. (This stuff used to be radiation shielding containers for prostate implant seeds) Maybe not though, when I follow the instructions on using my Lee hardness tester, I get imprint dimples ranging from 0.060" to 0.070" diameter, which corresponds to BHN 11-14. This is for air-cooled ingots and boolits that are air-cooled.

I got some wheel weights the other day, finally, and melted/fluxed/cast ingots from them. I guess you'd call these ingots air-cooled, although I tried to speed up the ingot casting process by setting the ingot mould on a wet towel to force-cool the mould faster. Anyway, I was surprised last night when I put a WW ingot of mine into the hardness tester and got the exact same dimple size and Brinell hardness numbers that I did for this air-cooled scrap lead of mine. Ok, so maybe I got lucky and my scrap lead is really an alloy close to WW composition?

Here's the other weird thing: figuring I'd need all the help I could get hardening up my boolits, I water quench them by dropping them into a coffee can with some water in the bottom. I cast at about 650F to 750F (I'm still learning how to adjust the melter rheostat for consistent temperature) and after a few boolits, the mould and the boolits are hot enough to get me that sizzling sound when they hit the water. Ok then. When I hardness tested some of these water-dropped boolits, once again I get dimples about 0.060" to 0.070" corresponding to BHN 10-14.

The only other physical data I have is my first test firing of boolits that I cast and loaded myself this last week. I loaded up some light 45ACP 230LRNs, 9mm 125LRNs, and 357 158LSWCs all lubed with Lee liquid alox, run through a sizer die, and re-lubed again prior to loading. By light I'm talking about in the ballpark of the recommended starting loads, like about 4 grains of W231 under the 230LRN for instance. Ran of box of about 50 each through some of my pistols and had decent accuracy (as good as my store-bought lead hand reloads anyway), and only a little bit of leading (only with the 158LSWCs, in the throat/chamber area of a Ruger SP101 with a 2.5" barrel). So I was pleased with that, heck, if nothing else, this whole casting thing is worth it if I can make ok 45ACP boolits for myself. I'd heard you need hard boolits for 45ACP (shallow rifling grooves) and these made from my scrap material seem to be ok.

Sorry for the rambling, but I'm trying to be accurate in my presentation. So, my questions are:

1) all things considered, is the Lee hardness tester this inconsistent, or is my technique poor/down on the learning curve so that I'm getting inconsistant results?

2) IIRC, doesn't water quenching usually result in an increase of about 5-10 BHN numbers? I'm a little annoyed or concerned that it doesn't seem to be having any effect when I try it, unless I'm messing up the water quenching or the hardness testing.

3) any idea or way to tell what kind of alloy I might have from these old shielding "pigs" that I'm melting? If it matters, the material has a silvery appearance at room temp, and that's not a surface coating, that's just what the bulk metal looks like. It melts by 650F per my lead thermometer. Maybe I got lucky and it's something like wheel weights?

I have some more work to do with my scrap lead melting to keep investigating, but I'm a little concerned about whether or not I'm getting accurate BHN numbers when I use my equipment. Tonight I'll try melting down and casting some of what I think is pure lead from a different source. This other stuff I'm going to hardness test and cast into ingots is a dark gray color, and is very soft (it was once radiation shielding for x-rays and is in the form of heavy bricks, a single brick is >20# and I have to think of a way to melt it w/o overwhelming my Lee magnum melter).

Question 4) The Lee hardness tester guide has some recomendations for max load pressure as a function of BHN number. IIRC, BHN 14 is supposed to go no higher than about 17,000PSI. Do you "buy into" these handload pressure recommendations?

[Ricochet]

There's no telling what's in the shielding lead you've got. The only thing that matters is hardness, anyway.

Water quenching doesn't immediately harden lead. It starts noticeably hardening after about 2 hours, is considerably harder the next day, and peaks after a week or more.

I think you'd ding bullets by dropping them in a coffee can with a little water in the bottom. They're very soft when hot enough for quenching. You need to do that right after the sprue has solidified and turned dull. Cut the sprue and immediately drop them in a full bucket of water. Or heat them in the oven at 475F for an hour and rop them as soon as they come out of the oven.

You don't need hard bullets for a .45 ACP, that's a myth.

Still, I water drop all my bullets as it's easier than dropping them on a towel and keeping them from dinging each other. Most of my soft scrap lead hardens up quite a bit this way. I don't own or need a hardness tester.

[xsquidgator]

Ah, didn't occur to me about dinging the bullets. I put a couple inches of water in the can and floated a little thin piece of wood, mostly to reduce splashing (it sort of works, sometimes) but i'll leave it in just to try and prevent the dinging. Interesting point about it taking some time for quenched lead to harden, also, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info!

[xsquidgator]

Slightly off topic, but is there any lower limit on how soft 45ACP boolits can be (for plinking)? I'll be set if I can use what I think is very soft lead brick, I have a lot of that. Or at least, stretch out my WW ingots and my "little lead pig" ingots.

[454PB]

I agree with ricochet on this, and I think your Lee tester is accurate. Let those quenched boolits sit for a week or two and you'll be surprised at the hardness. Make sure you do any sizing immediately after casting, or the added hardness will be lost.

Do your lead containers look like this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/eddard49/Leadcontainer.jpg



The ones I have are nearly identical to wheel weights in hardness and castability.

[felix]

I never size after quenching. Over the years I have learned boolits shoot more accurately when sized after they are at their hardest level, and most especially if they are going to be checked with crimp-on style checks. I do not want the boolit to ever think about bending. The trick here is to shoot them within a day or so if that level of hardness, or slightly below, is to be maintained throughout the shooting event. However, more accuracy is obtained by adjusting the load to handle a somewhat softer lot of boolits several years later. This gives the boolits time to fully equalize throughout. Some of my BR boolits are more than 5 years old after sizing. ... felix

[xsquidgator]

454PB-
Yes, that's the kind of container I have (not the same but very similar), in the radiation field we call them "pigs". Wow, guess I really got lucky then, I was expecting this whole lot I have to be pure soft Pb. I also have about 50# of Pb bricks the clinic was throwing out that while they appeared a dark soft gray (unlike the little pigs which are a light smooth gray in appearance), turn out to be ~ BHN 10 and cast into perfect silver colored ingots.

[weakhand luke]

I'm probably way too new at this to comment on this thread, but seems somewhere I've heard, read, or otherwise think I know that it takes a little dollop of arsenic in the melt to act as catalyst for the hardening processes?

I love this stuff.

[racepres]

Just wanna say "I am jealous" ! In the "good ole days" I used to get radiation "pigs", and found them to be the "berries" for higher intensity type rounds. Even had some stashed .. but an ex- musta made off w/ em!!! When I had them I used WW for handguns, and Pigs for higher intensity stuff!!! Good for you!! MV

[Ricochet]

Luke, arsenic is NOT necessary for the hardening process, but it's certainly a good thing to have.

[singleshotbuff]

OFF TOPIC


Luke, where are you in NE Ohio? I'm near Canton/Akron.

We now return you to your topic.

(sorry)

SSB

[HABCAN]

Xsquidgator, you use a coffee can with 2" water? That would heat up pretty fast I think? I suggest you upgrade to what I use: a commercial plastic ice-cream pail about the size of a small wastebasket, nearly full of cold water, with an old towel permanently folded into the bottom. It stays cold and the three-hundredth or so boolit hisses just like the first ones. OK, so I have to roll up my sleeve to get 'em back out, lifting the towel, ................... and I have to change the water every month! Shucks!

[Cloudpeak]

Or, better yet, a towel with a slit fastened around the top of a 5 gallon bucket with water in it. This virtually eleminates splash on your mold (or in your melt if your bucket is really close to your furnace.)

Cloudpeak

[RBak]

It seems no one has actually answered the question on the quality of the Lee Hardness Tester.

In the early days I heard / read a lot of bad things about the tester.
I haven't heard anything against it for a year or so, and I was thinking of possibly buying my oldest son one for his birthday in March.

Anyone with some hands-on care to comment on the quality of this instrument he's using?

Russ...

[454PB]

Russ, the Lee unit works well, but requires a steady hand. The size of the indent is measured using a 25X "microscope" that comes with the kit. You need to rig up some sort of mechanism to hold the microscope steady, and there have been posts on this forum with some very innovative designs. I use my Lee turret press. I place the sample on the shellholder, then put the microscope inside a .45 ACP sizing die that is mounted in the turret. I then use the ram to adjust distance between the scope and the sample, and use the turret for lateral movement. You also need a bright light source on the sample. If you plan to do a lot of testing, you would be better served with the more expensive testers, but if you do maybe 10 measurements a month, the Lee unit is cheap, accurate, and easy to store.

[RBak]

454PB....Don't want to hi-jack this thread, so I'll get back with you on how you set this thing up. Heck! at the price, I just might get two of 'em and hang onto one.

Russ...

[A J]

As suggested in a previous thread I use about 3" of packing peanuts floating on top of the water in a 5 gallon pail about 2/3 full. Works great!

[Naphtali]

Let those quenched boolits sit for a week or two and you'll be surprised at the hardness. Make sure you do any sizing immediately after casting, or the added hardness will be lost. Hardness occurs only on the surface? If this is correct, what casting alloy, and what treatment will achieve hardening throughout the cast bullet?

[NSP64]

I don't think you can harden all the way through. I have a LEE brand tester and found it accurate( in so much that I have gotten different reading on different lead sources). You must follow the instruction about depth of compression and length (time) of compression. I water quelched some 44 round and they jumped from 11 to 24 on the lee scale, but after sizing was back to 11.:Fire:

[454PB]

I can't say the added hardness goes all the way through the boolit, but it goes in a long way. Lee's instructions say to file a flat on the side of the sample boolit. I do this, and just for SAG, I did tests at varying depths. I found the heat treating hardened the boolits in at least 1/3 of the diameter.

[Whaump 'em]

I think the Lee tester is at least consistent, but am surprised by some of my results.
Like others have said, let the water quenched sit two weeks before testing hardness, air-cooled 24 hours.
How about water dropping some of medical container alloy to see if there's antimony in it?