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View Full Version : Lee 200 gr. .452 FP



Jagdhund
02-24-2014, 02:42 PM
I apologize in advance if I'm rehashing a topic that has already been worked over. Has anyone tried Lee's 200 gr. cowboy action .45 bullet in a .45 ACP? Any words of wisdom on this combination? I'm going to try to run them about 850 fps thru a Kimber and an SR1911CMD. I guess my main concern is will the big flat nose feed?

RickinTN
02-24-2014, 02:47 PM
It feeds well in my Kimbers, a Colt, and a Sringfield. I load it with Clays powder for a medium target load. I think it should work well for you.
Rick

Cmm_3940
02-24-2014, 05:15 PM
For the 452-200-RF to work in 45ACP seating depth is critical and good mags are important to prevent misfeeds. I seat that boolit to 1.10" COL with pretty good results.

Why so deep? My 1911 doesn't have any throat to speak of, and if it's seated any longer the boolit ogive hits the lands before it headspaces properly. I ain't going to mess with the throat on my Les Baer. :-) If your gun has more throat, you can seat it longer, and it may work better for you. Experiment.

Watch your powder charge at this depth. I loaded 5.2gr of PB last time, just because I had some. This isn't really a 45acp design, even though Lee lists it as one. It may misfeed occasionally (mine still do) or your gun might not like it. I consider it a practice only boolit, but that's just me.

bdthaxton
02-25-2014, 01:19 AM
My Kimbers seem to like a little longer COL with this profile. 1.25" seems to be the magic number for me. Usually load around 4.2gr of Clays with this boolit.

noylj
02-25-2014, 01:54 AM
1.10"? Do you mean 1.20"?

Cmm_3940
02-25-2014, 02:40 AM
I mean 1.10". Think of a normal RN 230gr boolit with the nose lopped off to make it 200gr. Here, I'll demonstrate.

Here is the boolit in question:

97763

Here is a one of my rounds seated at 1.10" on the left, and an inert one I just made seated 1.20" on the right ( I finally found a use for that SPP brass). The 1.10" round is seated to just above the crimp groove. The 1.20" round is seated to just below the crimp groove:

97760

Here is the 1.10" round in my handy cartridge length gauge showing proper head space:

97761

Here is the 1.20" dummy round sitting on the lands of the barrel. Obviously, this won't work:

97762

Hope this clears things up.

spfd1903
02-25-2014, 03:04 AM
Bingo CMM 3940! Made a dummy round myself a few weeks ago with that boolit. Same OAL in my $500 Phillipine, .45 Auto. Anything longer would not fit in the chamber.

Woebeme
02-25-2014, 12:21 PM
One of my favorites for the 45ACP. I use a combo of JPW and alox wiped in the band over some Unique. I found seating critical to feeding also. Short and stubby feeds through four different 45's( 3-1911's and a Sig).

Tac9
07-29-2015, 11:50 AM
I know this post is a bit old but it seemed the most recent on this topic. I also plan on using the Lee 200gr RF boolits for my .45 ACP. But I am just having some trouble deciding on load data. I know my OAL needs to be about 1.110 or less for them to chamber correctly. At this point I'm looking at using 5.1gr of HP-38. My biggest concerns are pressure at this short OAL. Does this load seem reasonable?

This is to be shot from a Springfield XD Mod. 2 (.45 ACP)
Bullets have been sized to .452 and TL in Alox.

Thanks in advance (sorry for the revival of old stuff :neutral:)
-Zach

Yodogsandman
07-29-2015, 12:35 PM
Always work up your loads from the STARTING LOAD.

Always check several trusted sources for reload data and BE SURE they're the same.

noylj
07-29-2015, 10:49 PM
>I know my OAL needs to be about 1.110 or less for them to chamber correctly.

I must be missing something.
You KNOW that COL, without even loading a round? Really? How? Don't think I've ever seen a COL that short for .45. Even 1.180" would be short for any .45 I have. You are only going to have about 0.2" of bullet sticking up from the case?
Most RNFP bullets are loaded at around 1.200 +0.05/-0.01".
Never tried that bullet, but start with the crimp groove above the case mouth and reduce COL as needed. Do not crimp the case mouth into the crimp groove--just a standard light taper crimp.
Load two inert dummy rounds and do a "plunk" test as you seat the bullet deeper (if even needed).
5.1gn of 231/HP38 is generally a good load, to be worked up to. I find my 200gn bullets are most accurate at 4.6-5.0gn, depending on bullet.

Rattlesnake Charlie
07-29-2015, 10:54 PM
Cmm 3940

That was a wonderful post. Very clear instructions and photos to boot.

This site has quality people.

Cmm_3940
07-29-2015, 11:56 PM
Thanks!

-Chris

Tac9
07-30-2015, 06:18 AM
noylj,

I do KNOW this is my correct OAL, I have loaded a few dummy rounds at tested the OAL for my gun via plunk test as described in the above pictures before I posted.

My posting is to address the concerns that come as a result of that short OAL, as in the raised pressure due to volume decrease. I was thinking if i subtract the bullet length from my OAL i could get a volume 'length' (by cross area) and then compare that to similar 200gr bullets. considering the shortness of the OAL mainly comes from the fact that the front nose is sliced off and not because it is necessarily seated more deeply (volume wise).

-Zach

Blackwater
07-30-2015, 02:48 PM
More and more, it seems, we're seeing here references to data being followed, but not the real reason WHY we need to do that, or what exceptions there may be. I think we need to remember, and especially the newbies need to be reminded, that the space for the powder is one of the prime determinants of pressure with a given load of a given powder. Seating depth CAN and DOES affect pressure, and different bullet designs often yield significantly different pressures according to how deeply they have to be seated. This is something I see too few reminders of.

Let me explain. I have two SWC .44 moulds, the Lyman-Keith 429421 and the Saeco #441, They're similar, but the Keith has the longer nose and shorter seating depth. The Saeco has the shorter nose and more bearing length, and seats more deeply than the Lyman. This tells me that I have to use a tad less powder with the Saeco bullet to get the same pressure as I do with the Lyman, and vise versa. This applies no matter what the bullet and powder and caliber being loaded, and may be especially important to remember in the small cased higher pressure loads, such as the 9mm., .380, etc. Just a reminder to watch the details. They really DO matter, and you do NOT want to find out about that the hard way! With all the concern for getting the maximum # of reloads to the pound of powder (always a desirable thing, but that yields its own set of parameters within which to work), and the popularity of say the 9mm., there's excellent opportunity to load an over pressure round that might blow out the grip panels due to using a charge of fast burning powder with a deeply seated bullet, thus upping pressures beyond the limit. It can also batter auto pistols sometimes, too, so please understand this principle, and watch it, and most especially you newer guys. It really CAN produce problems for you. If you have a chrono, watching velocity is probably the best indicator we can have short of a pressure gun. Velocity very closely indicates pressures, and when you get to the expected velocity level, you've almost surely arrived at the real max load for your components and your techniques (especially regarding seating depth).

If you ever have to change OAL to get proper feeding, be sure to look at seating depth variation in deciding how much powder to load. Decrease seating depth, and you're also increasing pressure, so for starters at least, cut back the load what seems an appropriate amount, and try it over the chrono. Work back up to the velocity you want/need, and you should be totally OK. Just do it incrementally, and you'll wind up learning stuff you'd never really learn. It's really no big amount of "trouble" either, or at least nowhere nearly as much as a bad batch of reloads CAN truly be! FWIW?

Tac9
07-30-2015, 03:07 PM
Blackwater,

Thanks for the reply, it was very helpful and reassuring of safe procedures of pressure changes in relation to seating depth.

For an example lets say I have two bullets both with the same weight:

Bullet 1: .45 in length (for example not particularly realistic)
Bullet 2: .50 in length

If The cartridge containing bullet 1 has a OAL of 1.0 over a certain powder charge then If i seat bullet 2 at an OAL of 1.05 over that very same powder charge the theoretically the pressure would be the same in both cases due to the fact that the volume where the powder sits is the same in both cases and all other elements are controlled. would this assumption be correct?

respectfully,
-Zach

Cmm_3940
07-30-2015, 03:24 PM
Close, but not exactly. Even if we also assume the two boolits share the same diameter and alloy, The two different boolit designs will still have different profiles, driving bands, ogives, and loob grooves, resulting in different amounts of surface area in contact with the rifling, which creates different amounts of friction, which in turn gives us different chamber pressures. Especially with cast boolits, documented load data is really just best guess, which is why everyone tries to put so much emphasis on working loads up incrementally.

-Chris

Tac9
07-30-2015, 03:32 PM
cmm_3940,

That makes good sense, I've just been having a tough time finding data to match my setup currently so i'm trying to rule out and control as many factors as I can and narrow down what my starting charge should be. Thanks for the help. I guess I would rather ask all the questions now instead of trying to figure out what went wrong at the range and my gun/hands possibly in pieces.

-Zach

fredj338
07-31-2015, 02:51 PM
Adjust the OAL for your gun should be fine. I love the bullet for pins shoots, really smacks the pin, even at target vel. Lots of energy transfer.
WHile OAL is important. I think it is over done. If your loads never go near max, then pressure changes with OAL, just aren't that big of a deal. It is powder & case dependent of course, but generally, at midrange & below, just doesn't move the pressure needle much. Seating 0.050" deeper just starts to get noticeable in the 45acp with powders faster than W231.

Tac9
08-01-2015, 12:02 AM
Ok guys, for anyone wanting to know I took them out to the range today. I did 3 different loads all at the same OAL of 1.120. I did one set with 4.5gr, one with 4.8gr and one with 5.1gr. All of these were with hp-38. Each of these loads shot fine with no signs of over pressure. The 4.5gr and 4.8gr loads did leave unburnt powder in the rear of the lower receiver. There were no large differences in recoil but accuracy seemed to be best at either 4.8gr or 5.1gr. There was no keyholing whatsoever and no jams of the 75 total that I shot.

-Zach