Help with 45acp load

[osteodoc08]

I traded some brass with a member here in 45. Cleaned it and set up my LnL. Trying to duplicate GI ball ammo. Have Raniers 230gr copper coated bullets from years ago on the shelf. Brass deprimed, sized, loaded with 5.5gr 231 and OAL set to 1.270".

Now the problem. I can't get the crimp right. I'm using a hornady 3 die set with a seperate taper crimp. I have the combo seating/crimp die backed out so it only seats. If I set the crimp too light, I can push the bullet down into the case with my thumb. Too much and I swage the bullet and can rotate the bullet and can actually pull it out a little with my fingers. Sometimes I think it's set well and the bullet won't rotate or press into the case, but the next one will. I've tried adjusting the flare die and even not even use it. No change.

I've seperated brass by head stamp and Winchester seems to be most consistent. But still get "rejects" where I can push the bullet in with my thumb or it's swaged down and can rotate and pull it out a little. With the same settings!

Just for kicks, I grabbed a 250gr XTP for my 45 colt and it worked fine. I'm about to pull my hair out using these plated bullets.

Is it the brass? The bullets? Me?

My taper crimp diameter is .470 to .471 on the "good" ones. Same as the "rejects". Case length is in spec, but they're not trimmed to all the same length.

Anyone wanna trade plated bullets of mine for jacketed 3:2?

[StratsMan]

Did you measure the diameter of the Rainiers??? I used them for years, never had a problem...

[rodsvet]

Mic the cases after you size. Sounds like they are not sizing down enough or the bullets are too small in diameter. Use a micrometer or quality caliper. It has to be something simple like that. I assume you have sized 45 before with you size die?? Do those things and let us know what you find out. Rod

[MtGun44]

I always TC to .466-.468 at least, sometimes a bit tighter.

Bill

[Echo]

My guess is that the plated bullets are pure Pb, and thus, when swaged down by the TC die, don't spring back. May be an unsolvable problem, short of using different boolits. And it sounds as though the expander/beller may be expanding too much, so there is little neck tension. But then, if the Ranier bullets are pure Pb...

[osteodoc08]

Brand new dies from Hornady.

I tried without using the expander. Better, but same issues.

I pulled the bullets and were obviously swaged down even at a TC diameter of .470 which should be plenty. If I taper crimp any more than that it is obvious that it is swaging down and if I do, while I can't push the bullet in, I can pull it out about .010 with my fingers

I have no idea how many times fired the brass was, but it looks better than most of my brass I've used quite a bit. I checked the brass length and it was .890 for almost all of them.

I think I'm gonna sell these ranier plated bullets and buy some jacketed and cast some out of COWW. My understanding is that the ranier bullets are pure lead underneath.

Their diameter was .451 with a mid grade electronic caliper.

I did try that 45 colt XTP sized at .452 and it was looking good with no movement of the bullet.

[osteodoc08]

Perhaps the used brass is past it's useful life?

I took 5 known 2x fired brass, ran it through and it seemed ok. Bullet seated well and I could even feel good neck tension when seating it. I'll dig around for known brass and see where things go later today since it's after midnight. Gotta get a few hours sleep.

[Cmm_3940]

What you are describing should work, so it must be something simple. Are you measuring the TC right at the rim of the case? If so, either your brass may be fatigued or the Ranier bullets are sized wrong. I shoot Berry's 230 RN, which should be the same as the Ranier, with a .470 TC without issue. I just checked, and although the Berry's are nominally .452 , they actually measure .451 just like the Ranier. I'd probably try different brass at this point.

Here's a question I don't know the answer to - Are all TC dies created equal? I'm using the standard RCBS carbide 3 die set.

[knifemaker]

Try switching to X-Treme plated bullets. They are .452 in Dia. not .451 like Rainer or Berry's. I have used X-Treme for years and I am 100% satisfied with their performance. X-Treme Bullets have a web site and the prices listed include the shipping price. If you have the same problem after using X-Treme bullets, then I would look at your reloading dies being the problem.

[gtgeorge]

Berry bullets are very soft and likely your problem. I do not length size pistol brass but in your case may need to be separated and sized to get things uniform since some work and some don't with the same setting. I bought 1 batch of Berry early on and never again but then I only shoot cast in pistols now.

[6bg6ga]

I question the taper crimp die. Have tried other dies in the past but only use the Dillon or RCBS dies now. The result is everything I taper crimp gets a nice tight crimp and accuracy is good. I also use the powder dropper unit from the bullet dropper people. The dropper has be re-engineered to give you just enough to open up the mouth of the case for easy bullet insertion.

Brass old? No, I ve used a lot of military brass from 1962 and older without a problem.

[osteodoc08]

I'm gonna see if my buddy has a micrometer to measure these bullets. The more I think about it, I wonder if they're undersized. Even if I size the case and NO flare, if I seat to max OAL, I can still press them into the casing. That just isn't right.

I've got some factory stuff and some with 200 gr LSWC I'm gonna pull and reload them with my set up to see if it's me, set up or the bullets

[dudel]

IIRC, Berry's are swaged then plated, so yes, soft lead. That said, I've loaded them for years without a problem (even your 230gr RN). I suspect your brass may a bit be too used.

[Grandpas50AE]

Try switching to X-Treme plated bullets. They are .452 in Dia. not .451 like Rainer or Berry's. I have used X-Treme for years and I am 100% satisfied with their performance. X-Treme Bullets have a web site and the prices listed include the shipping price. If you have the same problem after using X-Treme bullets, then I would look at your reloading dies being the problem.

I had the same problem as the OP when I was using the Ranier a few years ago. Switched to X-Treme and no more problems.

[USAFrox]

I don't bother to crimp my .45, and I've never had a problem. I have my seater die set to take out the flare after seating the bullet, and that's all. I don't worry about putting on a super crimp. By the way, I've loaded up around 1500 of those same Ranier bullets with no problems doing this. Why not try it without a crimp?

[osteodoc08]

I'm ending the madness. Bullets for sale under swap and sell

[newmexicocrawler]

I stopped crimping my 45s because of problems like this. I have a Dillon 650 and I only seat them on the Dillon then I take them all to the single stage and run them through bulge buster...haven't had a problem in thousand and thousands of rounds.

[6bg6ga]

I stopped crimping my 45s because of problems like this. I have a Dillon 650 and I only seat them on the Dillon then I take them all to the single stage and run them through bulge buster...haven't had a problem in thousand and thousands of rounds.

You don't taper crimp your 45's?

In my mind that is shear madness.

Ever seen a blown up gun? I saw a 40 that some reloader didn't crimp the bullets good enough in and apparently the bullet went partially back into the case. When the round was fired excess pressure was the result and the rest is history. The demise of a good gun.

[gefiltephish]

Proper neck tension is due to proper case sizing and then expanding to suit the bullet. For soft bullets, I find .001-.002 interference is usually sufficient. Taper crimping is just to flatten out any case mouth flare to ensure the cartridge chambers.

Just for example: I recently found that my R-P 38spl brass does not provide adequate neck tension. I believe this is due to thinner walls than all the other brass I have. In order to use these I would have to find, or have custom made, an undersize sizing die and a custom expander plug (m-die).

[Dale53]

gefiltephish maybe has the answer. I will NOT use Remington brass in my various .45 ACP's simply because it is too thin to get adequate bullet tension.

My favorite brass is military - you DO have to swage the primer pockets but that is only a one time thing. I have successfully used Winchester and Federal commercial brass, also, without problems.

The O.P. needs to check his brass and see if it is Remington. The bullets may work fine with proper brass. For the record, I taper crimp to a loaded mouth diameter of .470" and get EXCELLENT results on my 1911's as well as my 625's.

FWIW
Dale53

[rodsvet]

My Dillon die makes the loaded case look a little coke bottle =ish. With no crimp the slug will not push back into the case. I have actually, in the old days, used a slight roll crimp with success also. Something is not up to spec, dies bullets, but probably not the brass being too old. I'm still loading and shooting Korean war brass that has been loaded way over 10 times with 225gr. linotype round nose with 5 gr. Bullseye or 7 gr. Unique. Let us know when you get the answer. Rod

[mpmarty]

The only reliable brass I have found in 45acp is TZZ military from Israel. I bought 10,000 of them years ago and still have most of them.

[lka]

I use hornady dies, same as you, I use brass off the range, some pretty crappy and have never had the issues you are. Must be something weird, why don't you use the crimp in the seating die?

[bruce381]

Proper neck tension is due to proper case sizing and then expanding to suit the bullet. For soft bullets, I find .001-.002 interference is usually sufficient. Taper crimping is just to flatten out any case mouth flare to ensure the cartridge chambers.

+10

I had problems with a Lee die NOT sizing the brass down far enough got a dillion sizer and problem went away.

The taper crimp is used to remove the flair it is NOT to hold the boolit.

The case without any crimp should hold boolit so that it will not move in if you push against the side of work bench

look for larger boolits .452 or so or check that your sizer is hitting the shell plate and giving maximum sizing or get a new sizer

[tomme boy]

Didn't the Hornady dies in 45acp roll crimp instead of taper crimp? I think your sizing die is at fault here. If you can push them in before you expand them, then they are not being sized right. And you do not need to crimp them anyway. You just need to remove the belling. They headspace on the mouth of the case. If they don't because it is rolled in it is going to headspace on the extractor and that will mess up the extractor after a while. Call Hornady and tell them the FL die is not sizing the brass down enough and explain what is happening. It would not be the first time a die was sent with the wrong carbide insert.

[6bg6ga]

Proper neck tension is due to proper case sizing and then expanding to suit the bullet. For soft bullets, I find .001-.002 interference is usually sufficient. Taper crimping is just to flatten out any case mouth flare to ensure the cartridge chambers.

+10

I had problems with a Lee die NOT sizing the brass down far enough got a dillion sizer and problem went away.

The taper crimp is used to remove the flair it is NOT to hold the boolit.

The case without any crimp should hold boolit so that it will not move in if you push against the side of work bench

look for larger boolits .452 or so or check that your sizer is hitting the shell plate and giving maximum sizing or get a new sizer

I'm going to disagree with you just a little. I was always taught that taper crimp did two things. First it removes the flair and secondly it does help retain the bullet.
I judge the taper crimp by filling the magazine after measuring the OAL of each round. I then fire several rounds and remove and check the OAL again. If the bullets don't move its fine and if they do I give it a little more crimp.

[6bg6ga]

check this

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=76154



The taper crimp is where the case is pushed into the body of the bullet so tightly that it secures the bullet from moving. The case mouth is pushed by a tapered surface in the seating die or a separate crimp die into the bullet’s body. It can be applied to varying degrees dependent on how the die is adjusted but there must still be an exposed edge of the case standing proud of the bullet’s body. That edge is what the case headspaces on because in most of these cases there is no shoulder or rim on the case. Typical examples are all the semi-auto pistol calibers like 9mm and 45ACP, among many others.

[kweidner]

I suspect the sizing die as well. Although I don't have any dillon running .45 currently, I have some spp that made it through inspection that were sized. I will do an outside mic of the case and get back to you. Stand by.

[44MAG#1]

I had a set of Hornady titatinim dies for the 45 colt that the sizer would not size the cases enough to hold the bullets and one could push the bullets into the case with thumb pressure. Second set of Hornady dies I've had with problems. I ate the cost of the 45 Colt dies and looked at it as a lesson that cost me the cost of the dies.
Could be the problem with the 45 Auto dies.
Now I have a Lee .430-310 mold that cast undersize and got the run around from Lee.

[davidalyn]

Full length sizing of the case is the answer. After the case has been properly sized, only a light to moderate taper crimp need be applied. I do not know of any pistol die that actually sizes the entire length of the case, but some do a better job than others. I have Dillon, RCBS and one Redding 40 caliber sizing die specifically made undersized to address this situation. An easier solution is to get an EGW "U" sizing die. EGW starts with Lee undersized dies, then they machine off the bottom portion of the die to allow for more of a of the case to be full length sized. I use "U" dies in 40 caliber and 45 ACP. I tried one in 9mm, but due do the 9mm tapered case, I did not like the result.

[jonp]

I recently got a set of 45 Hornady Dies from a member here. I use a separate Lyman TC so I seat and crimp in 2 steps. I also have some Ranier on my bench. I have had no problem with seating and crimping to .468.

Unless Ranier has changed something I suspect another problem such as gunk in the sizing die causing variable sizing or gunk in the taper crimp die causing the same thing. If you are using the same stamped brass and the same bullets with the dies set the same something is odd.
Make sure all of the brass is the same headstamp and measure it before and after sizing and see if there is a variation.
Pull out 10 random bullets from the box and measure those.
Check your seating die for gunk also and after seating but before crimping measure every round.

[44MAG#1]

I would bet money that it is the sizing die. Get a Lee carbide die and you will be okay.

[osteodoc08]

I had a good friend of mine send me some 230gr lead RN boolits sized at .452 and are AC COWW. They seem to do just fine. I do have a habit of over crimping things. I think it is just left over from all my revolver shooting with stiff loads. I just have to say me and the ranier bullets just agree to disagree. Lesson learned. I sold them and hope the new owner is happy with them.

[KYCaster]

I'm ending the madness. Bullets for sale under swap and sell



Good call! :drinks:

Jerry

[monkeywrench]

If nothing changes in your process loading round to round then it is the brass that is different case to case. I bet that the length of the cases varies and thus the crimp die works it different. ie. a little longer or shorter will result in a different crimp. QED

[Jammersix]

I had exactly the same problem with both Rainier and Berry's bullets, and came to the same conclusion: now I use lead or Hornady jacketed bullets for .45 ACP, no plated.

In the lead, I crimp them a little tighter than jacketed, and I have trouble with bullets seating farther in if I chamber them more than about twice.

[bhn22]

As was mentioned earlier, not all cases are created equal. Some, like Remington, have thin case walls, and don't crimp correctly at .470. I segregate my brass by headstamp, and reserve Remington (for example) for larger cast bullets. Some plated or jacketed bullets are .451 instead of .452, and that little difference can throw you off even more.

[Rickshaw]

Just a little late responding to this.....A little outside of the box thinking here.
Perhaps that brass is too soft.....like it got caught in a fire.
Just my .02 worth

[bruce381]

I'm going to disagree with you just a little. I was always taught that taper crimp did two things. First it removes the flair and secondly it does help retain the bullet.
I judge the taper crimp by filling the magazine after measuring the OAL of each round. I then fire several rounds and remove and check the OAL again. If the bullets don't move its fine and if they do I give it a little more crimp.

Disagre if you want a TAPPER crimp is only to take out the flare now a ROLL crimp will help hold the boolit from moving under recoil but again not to hold it.
To make most accurate round the sizing must be correct to hold the boolit without a crimp a crimp is secondary

[osteodoc08]

I bought a mic and mic'do the bullets. .45105 inch. No issues there. They seem to work fine with boolits at .452 inch. I will also buy a new sizing die and consider it something that I new better....

I was also taper crimping too much and literally swaging the bullet "shank" down. Love and learn.

Thanks everyone.

[Char-Gar]

I bought a mic and mic'do the bullets. .45105 inch. No issues there. They seem to work fine with boolits at .452 inch. I will also buy a new sizing die and consider it something that I new better....

I was also taper crimping too much and literally swaging the bullet "shank" down. Love and learn.

Thanks everyone.

Put a factory 45 acp round in the press shell holder and run it up to the top of stroke. Now screw your taper crimp die down on top of the loaded round as hard as you can using just your hand and no tools. Now set the die lock ring. Your taper crimp die is now properly adjusted and you won't have any more problems.

You dies are most likely fine.

Remove the barrel of your pistol and use it as a bullet seating gauge.

[6bg6ga]

Disagre if you want a TAPPER crimp is only to take out the flare now a ROLL crimp will help hold the boolit from moving under recoil but again not to hold it.
To make most accurate round the sizing must be correct to hold the boolit without a crimp a crimp is secondary

I guess my taper crimp affects my accuracy. Six shots 30yards 99585

[bruce381]

I tapper crimp also I have shoot <1 1/2 inch at 25 yards so what, my point is that the case has to be sized correctly you cannot make up for BAD case size with ANY kinda crimp. But yes I do agree some crimp will help, it is not a crutch for loose sizing thats all.