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View Full Version : Flaring case mouth in 35 Remington



Jevyod
02-22-2014, 10:16 AM
I hope this isn't too dumb a question! I have done some cast for my 9mm, now I want to load some up for my 35 Remington. My question is, what do I use to flare the case mouth to accept the boolit without shaving lead? The 9mm die set had a die to do that. Also, how much do I flare? Just enough to finger seat the boolit 1/16 inch or so? I will seat and crimp in separate operations. And if it makes a difference, I will be using RCBS 35-200-FN powder coated then sized to .358.

btroj
02-22-2014, 10:44 AM
Just enough to seat the bullet without shaving.
A 9 mm flare die would be fine.

Using too much isn't bad other than the fact it over works the case mouth and leads to premature splits.

dubber123
02-22-2014, 10:51 AM
btroj pretty well covered it. The LEE universal flare die might be a good addition to your arsenal in the future.

Jevyod
02-22-2014, 12:57 PM
Ok many thanks!

geargnasher
02-22-2014, 01:16 PM
How about using a rifle neck expander with a bellmouth shank? They make tools for this, correct ones. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and many other publications cover this in great detail.

Think about case tension on the boolit. How much do you need? There's more to it than just prying open the case mouth and ramming a boolit down in there.

Gear

jmort
02-22-2014, 01:25 PM
Agree with all the above, and really like the Lee Precision Universal Expander die which is really a universal flaring die.

45 2.1
02-22-2014, 03:00 PM
Agree with all the above, and really like the Lee Precision Universal Expander die which is really a universal flaring die.

Yes, it flares anything....... but, it doesn't prepare the neck for the boolit AT ALL. Read Gear's post before yours.

btroj
02-22-2014, 03:04 PM
I'm an M die guy. I like the fact they expand the case neck to make it less likely to squeeze my bullet down in size. I also like the fact I can get a tiny extra expansion at the mouth to aid in seating a bullet.

I suppose the real ideal would be a custom expander based on neck dimensions and bullet diameter used.

dubber123
02-22-2014, 03:07 PM
I've welded expanders up and turned them to the size I needed before. Gear is of course correct, but the OP just wanted to know how to flare his cases.

jmort
02-22-2014, 03:17 PM
I specifically stated that I agree with geargnasher, but not enough plain English for some. If O/P is sizing at .358 as stated, which is at or near SAAMI spec, then neck should be fine. How about rereading O/P and my post. At some point, .359 ?, yes, the neck would need expansion.

geargnasher
02-23-2014, 12:59 AM
I specifically stated that I agree with geargnasher, but not enough plain English for some. If O/P is sizing at .358 as stated, which is at or near SAAMI spec, then neck should be fine. How about rereading O/P and my post. At some point, .359 ?, yes, the neck would need expansion.

The OP is stepping into something new to him, saw a problem, and asked us for advice. I noticed that he missed part of the purpose of the pistol "flaring" die by the way he described it, and probably missed the importance of it since with jacketed bullets one doesn't usually need to worry about case neck tension or maintaining a precision, interference fit. Rather than simply answering his question, I estimated what his situation is and over-rode what he was asking for because I know that he will have better luck using a proper expander tool than just flaring to keep the boolit from shaving lead when seated. A generic flaring tool may allow for seating a boolit without shaving lead on the case mouth, but it doesn't address what the next issue will be, the one that hasn't been asked yet: "Why doesn't this rifle shoot like it should with my boolits?"

I have a little experience loading and shooting cast boolits in the .35 Remington and if my experience translates to others, which it should, then merely using a standard FL sizing die and some sort of bellmouth-only die is not going to work very well. There are a few things to consider with regard to proper case neck preparation than whether or not it squeezes the boolits undersized by being too tight. Boolits make very poor neck expanders, and the .30-30 and .35 Remington (as well as all the "dash" calibers and the .22 Hornet) will demonstrate just how poor by the groups they put on target. One of the reasons a boolit makes a lousy neck expander is because run-of-the-mill seating dies don't hold the boolit straight while forcing it into the case neck. The thinner cases I mention get distorted very easily by crooked boolits, bending the necks or expanding them off-center. If one properly prepares a case neck with the correct-sized expander spud for their application, and maintains around 1.5-2 thousandths interference fit, the elastic limit of the case neck is not exceeded when the boolit is seated, so no distortion takes place. Expanding from the sized inside diameter to boolit diameter with both sets of FL dies that I have exceeds the elastic limit of the neck and it relaxes about .004" larger at an ID of .354". The elastic limit will be exceeded again by seating the boolit, i.e. the neck is permanently stretched. Using an expander to make this stretch instead of the boolit itself will help keep the case neck straight. The .35 caliber brass typically has an elastic limit of about .0025-.003", meaning that if the neck is expanded to an ID of less than that amount smaller than the sized boolit, the boolit won't permanently stretch it and seating/pulling a boolit will leave the case neck ID the same as before it was seated. When expanded to about .002" smaller than boolit diameter with the correct tool, the neck is merely flexed a bit as it accepts and holds the boolit, not permanently deformed in a probably crooked manner. Remember, jacketed bullets can tolerate a fair degree of runout and being fired out of the case at a slight yaw, but cast boolits not so much, so special care must be taken.

My hint to read manuals regarding procedures for loading cast boolits in rifles was given because authors of such publications are better writers than I am and usually include a few nifty illustrations.

Regarding the Lyman M-Expander dies, I usually don't recommend them for several reasons. One is that they aren't typically the correct size to give the ideal neck tension for cast boolits, and they don't have a flaring step. They have a second, larger, parallel step with a sharp transition angle between the two, which over-expands the neck in most instances and ruins neck tension at the mouth area (depending on how deeply they're set to expand with the larger step). They are inadequate for neck flaring, and the first step is often much smaller than needed for cast in a typical caliber. If adjusted so the transition step is used only for just "kissing" the case mouth as to flare it slightly, they may be fine, but if that second step is pushed too deeply in the case mouth, a bulged ring remains on the neck after the boolit is seated and then crimped. This can create problems with chambering, particularly if one isn't very conscious of trim length and expansion depth. Dedicated cast boolit expander dies such as made by RCBS http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/reloading-dies/rifle-dies/neck-expander-dies-for-cast-bullets-prod59711.aspx are available with spuds sized in small increments to give specific neck/boolit fit, not just a generic "x" caliber size. As a bonus, the RCBS spuds have a belling shank built-in, which bells the mouth in a fashion concentric with the neck, unlike the conical "universal" type belling dies.

I'm sure several people will pile on and say the never needed anything other than a Lee die for stuffing boolits in rifle cases, and that's fine, but I don't know what their expectations or results are, either. I advocate gaining an understanding of what one is trying to accomplish when loading cast boolits and paying attention to details, for doing so greatly improves the end result.

Gear

Jevyod
02-23-2014, 08:58 AM
Thanks Gear! That is a pretty comprehensive answer and one that makes a lot of sense! I will be getting a Lyman Cast book soon! Thanks for taking the time to "edjimicate" me!

Screwbolts
02-23-2014, 10:45 AM
Gear, thank you for taking the time to put that in writing.

Ken

35remington
02-23-2014, 03:36 PM
The problem with M dies as supplied for 35 caliber rifles (and mentioned by Gear) is that they are toleranced for.......jacketed bullets. The size they leave the neck is similar to what the expander ball does in the regular full length sizing die.

Thus, no benefit, unless the expander is made up as a custom item as also previously mentioned.

For me, and in loading quite a lot of 35 Remington, I use the Lee Collet neck sizing die. Since the "squeeze" put on the case neck is adjustable and can be tailored for the cast bullet of varying (oversize) diameter, this option is better than the M die you'll get from Lyman. In this instance the Lee flaring die can be combined with the collet die for absolutely perfect results.

That's how I roll.

45 2.1
02-23-2014, 11:29 PM
+1 Gear..... not quite plain English, but a long explanation at times does some good so folks can see what really happens.

EDG
02-24-2014, 01:03 AM
A custom expander in the style of the Lyman M die is the best alternative for me.
You can configure it to any size and any configuration.
For closing the expanded case mouth the Lee factory crimp die is excellent.