30-40 cast bullet

[Battis]

For my Krag .30-40 that measures .308 grooves, I bought a Lee .309170 mold. I'll be using reduced loads with H4895. I re-read a lot of posts about cast bullets for the Krag, and it seems that they like larger bullets, but not too large: .311 is popular. The .309 bullets seat easily in a sized case - larger bullets would need an expander die. But, could the .309170 cast bullet be too small, or is it a "try it and see" thing (I can return the mold before I use it).

[Char-Gar]

The crucial dimension in any rifle is not the barrel groove, but the barrel throat. Krag rifles have large throats and do better with .312 bullet or even .313 if the throat is worn. Therefore your barrel groove diameter is irrelevant.

Will your .309 bullet work? It all depending on what "work" means to you. They will go bang and hit the target somewhere and might even give some type of group. That group may or may not make you happy. The fact remains that .312 bullets will produce the best groups in most Krag rifles.

Trying to do things the cheap way and not get a die to expand your cases to proper diameter for larger cast bullets is not a good approach to these matters.

Many folks are very happy to be able to hit a watermelon at 100 yards and if that makes you happy then you can forget all the niceties of cast bullet reloading for the Krag. If you want to hit a lemon, then you had better change your thinking.

[frnkeore]

.308 is on the small size for a Krag. Most of them are closer to .310. In the standard chamber, the throating starts at almost .311 so, you may need a bullet that size or larger to get a good seal with a cast bullet. I've only tried .312 bullets and I can shoot 1.5 groups at 100 in mine but, some say that .314 will shoot better.

Try your bullet but, if it leads or keyholes, you'll have to get a larger bullet. The 311299 is a good bullet (the older ones cast .314) or the 314299. Mine is similar but made by NEI and I get .312 dia. bands on it.

If you can return yours, I do so and get the above bullet or at least one of the Lee's that cast .312.

Frank

[Mark Daiute]

What CharGar said is gospel true. My first Krag was keyholing lead boolits and jacketed bullets until I sized a 314299 at .312. A rifle that shot like a shotgun turned into a rifle that would hold the black at 200 yards all day long and was a joy to shoot.

Send back the Mold and get the 314299 or 311284 from NOE here on this site (or one of the other vendors) some BAC lube from White Label Lube (another site member) and some gas checks from Blammer, on this site and you'll never regret it one bit.

[4570guy]

Yep - what CharGar said. I shoot the .312 sized Lee 185. It works very nicely. My Krag "patterns" with .308s but "groups" with .312s:)

[blixen]

+1 on the Lee 185. I get OK accuracy at .311, but it gets betterer at .313-.314. That's with Red Dot and 2400 loads. I've got the Lee flat nose 170gr. At .311 but I've never fired outta the Krag.

[madsenshooter]

Since the Lee molds are so inexpensive, I'd try a few of the .309s and see. I have only one Krag with groove diameter tight enough to use .309 sized bullets, it does fairly good with them if I keep the pressure up high enough that the case seals well, but at the same time low enough that alloy isn't blowing back on the case neck. The nose diameter of the bullet will need to match or be a tad larger than your bore diameter too. I prefer a tad larger, in my experiments, seems the more bullet bearing surface I have, the more accurate the bullet. This is a group shot at around 60yds with the NOE311365. They were sized .309, but they have a pretty large nose.

[Battis]

I've slugged the bore many times, from both ends, even used cerosafe, and it keeps coming up the same. I'll keep the .309 mold for the Schmidt Rubin 96/11, and get the larger size for the Krag. I'll try the 309s in the Krag to see what happens. Thanks for the replies.

[leadman]

Run the slug into the chamber end an inch or so then push it back out and see what it reads. The cerrosafe measured a half hour after poured should also give you a good dimension of the throat in front of the chamber.
Maybe you got lucky and have a great barrel.

[Battis]

I used .31 and .36 pure lead round balls for slugs, cleaned the bore some more, fired it, cleaned it again (the bore is really clean), slugged again, from both ends - same measurement. I tried the cerosafe in the throat but I messed it up. I gotta work on my cerosafe technique.

[madsenshooter]

I've never used cerrosafe myself, but was worried I'd get it somewhere it didn't belong and have a hard time getting it out. Not much concern of that with a Krag breech, but other rifles with dual locking lugs. I forgot about you having a Swiss rifle to play with too. If you haven't used the mold yet, how do you know what diameter the bands cast at, and that it seats easy? Got some borrowed boolits?

[Yukoner]

No trouble using Cerrosafe. It can be washed away clean using boiling water.

Ted

[Battis]

I bought some .309180 cast bullets on GB that came Saturday (the mould I bought is .309170) and loaded up 10 rounds today using reduced load of H4895. They chambered fine, they all fired, but I think the general consensus that the .309 is too small is correct. I couldn't set up paper targets today (long story...there were two stuck pickup trucks on the range - the first one tried to drive to the targets, the 2nd one got stuck pulling the first out). When they finally got pulled out, I fired at the 100 yd gong without much luck. Maybe the sights are way off, maybe the reduced load is too reduced, maybe I just can't shoot. The Schmidt Rubin really likes the FMJ 150 gr .308s - the Krag did not do well with them last week (blackened case necks, no accuracy).
I'll try again on paper this week.
I think the Schmidt Rubin might like the cast .309170 and .309180.

I ordered a Lyman cast bullet handbook that'll be here this week. I should have done that first.

[madsenshooter]

There's also some Krag load data on castpics, click down below, go to the load data lookup or check out some of the old reference Lyman books. Bigger is generally better in the Krag, by the time you get the nose out into the Krag throat with a 160-170gr bullet, there's not much left in the mouth of the case. Unless you use an oversize bullet like NOE's 316155 and size it down. It is one throat filling lightweight bullet.

[Char-Gar]

Bullet seating depth is often a concern with the long throat in the krag. I seat the bullets as long as I can and have the rounds feed through the magazine and call it done. Not the ideal way to do these things but it seems to work. The lightest/shortest bullets I use (311291 and 311407 Mod.) are in the 170 grain range plus or minus a couple of grains.

[Battis]

For the seating depth, I put a bullet into a fired case, chambered it, pulled it out and measured the OAL, then subtracted a few thousandths. They feed through the magazine at that length.
Here's a rookie question that I can probably answer when the Lyman cast reloading book gets here: does the base of a .311 cast bullet have the same diameter as a .309? When you size a bullet down, what part of the bullet actually gets reduced?

[Ben]

Battis

All of your bullet should be .311"

Particularly if you pass it through a Lee .311" dia. push thru die that is within " specs " .

[Battis]

If I use .311 bullets, I'd need a case mouth expander. When loading for my Vetterli .41, I use a .44 mag expander, seat the bullet, then neck size the case to get it to chamber. Is that the same technique with the 30-40?

[Char-Gar]

If you are going to shoot cast bullets in the Krag or any other 30 caliber rifle, you are going to need the proper tool to expand the case necks and mouths. You can get buy quick and dirty by twisting a pair of needle nose pliars in the case mouth to create a bell, but too small necks can damage bullets.

A case neck should be expanded to .001 to .002 smaller than the diameter of the cast bullet. That means .309 to .310 for .311 case bullets. There are a number tools available to do this. The easiest way to do this is to buy an RCBS cast bullet expander die. You can buy extra spuds from .308 to .311. This will cover cast bullets from .309 to .313 and bell the case mouth as well. A full set of these gizmos is well worth the purchase price for the fellow that shoots cast bullets in several different 30 caliber rifles

If you are going to shoot cast bullets, it requires some different tooling than that used for jacketed bullets. You might as well do it right and the results will be pleasing.

I darn sure would never, I repeat never, seat the bullet and then neck size the case...never!!!! I can't think of a better way to destroy the cast bullet and cause accuracy to go south. Here is the drill..

1. Size your cases.
2. Expand the case necks to .001 - .002 under the cast bullet size.
3. Bell the case mouths if you did not do so in the neck expanding process.
4. Seat a proper sized and lubricated bullet into the powder charged and primed case.
5. Make certain the case mouth bell does not drag on the chamber. If it does remove it with a crimp die, just enough to straighten the case mouth. No need to crimp unless you are using the rounds in a tubular magazine, which the Krag does not have.

Save any creative impulses you might have for art or creative writing. Handload is not the place to try and reinvent the wheel.

Note to all those who will take me on as an old fud who is against creative thinking and development of new ways to do things....kiss off! There is a time and place to try and do things new ways and push the frontiers of cast bullet shooting, but that is after you truly know what you are doing. A newbie trying to cut corners and save a few bucks in not the place to be creative.

Pardon me if I am a little defensive, but I am trying to head the idiots off at the pass. This is not my first time at this rodeo.

Note to Mods...I did not call any specific individual an idiot, nor did I do so in response to any post. Therefore, this should not be counted as "giving offense". The term "idiot" is being used in the generic sense, as in "should any idiots show up".

[Battis]

Save any creative impulses you might have for art or creative writing. Handload is not the place to try and reinvent the wheel.
Actually, sizing the neck after the bullet was seated was not my creative idea - it was suggested to me by a knowledgeable reloader. I am not that creative. I use that technique when I load .41 Swiss with long cases and short bullets - I don't need to do it when I load short cases and long bullets. And guess what? It works, even if it might be idiotic.
Since your response is actually factful and very helpful, I take no offense, but I did have to take an extra grain of salt.
Thanks for the info.

[Char-Gar]

Actually, sizing the neck after the bullet was seated was not my creative idea - it was suggested to me by a knowledgeable reloader. I am not that creative.

"I be done seen about everything"...The Crows in the Disney movie Dumbo

I cannot imagine any "knowledgably reloader" suggesting such a thing. That comes as close to the definition of nonsense and I have read on this board and I have seen my fair share. But, hey I could be wrong. I certainly don't want to stand in the way of anybody who would "boldly go where no man has gone before" and practice Enterprise reloading.

You stick a .309 or whatever cast bullet into a fired Krag case and size the case, you will now have .303 or so cast bullets that will neither be concentric nor of even length. To be certain of these numbers I sized a fired 30-40 Winchester case in an RCBS neck size die and the inside diameter of the sized case which measured .303. Unless you have neck turned your cases, they will not be concentric in thickness resulting in an out of round bullet. Now shoot your out of round .303 bullets down a barrel with .308 groove diameter and you will see what happens.

Size any cartridge case with the bullet in it and the bullet will come out no larger than the inside diameter of the sized case, plus or minus a hair for springback. I know nothing about the 41 Swiss, but I can't imagine that working in any rifle with which I am familiar. I will hold out the possibility that any rifle I have not worked with could be the exception to every rule except gravity and basic math.

I am actually trying to help you, but if you find it disturbing bordering on the offensive, then I can live with that. In fact you can load your ammo anyway you want and it matters not to me. I am over 50 years deep into cast bullet loading for the Krag rifle and I have four of them now. I have learned what works and what doesn't work. Some folks appreciate experience like that and some do not. Your rifle, your ammo, your eyes and so forth.

Take care.... and all the best.

[Battis]

While you are still single-loading, and using your existing equipment, you can smooth out the case flare after seating the bullet using the case resizing die. Remove the decapper stem and collet and run the round into the die so that just the mouth area gets sized, a neat finish.


That is the advice I got (different forum). It does work, perfectly.
Naw, I don't find you disturbing or offensive. You're knowledgeable and you have a certain way of presenting knowledge that's pretty colorful, maybe bordering on offensive sometimes. I was a cop for way too long to have a thin skin.

[Char-Gar]

If I use .311 bullets, I'd need a case mouth expander. When loading for my Vetterli .41, I use a .44 mag expander, seat the bullet, then neck size the case to get it to chamber. Is that the same technique with the 30-40?

Do you realize that is different that the quote you just put up. The other fellow was talking about removed the flair at the cast mouth by running it into a sizing die and you are talking about neck sizing the case. Not the same thing at all.

"What we have here is a failure to communicate".. The Warden in Cool Hand Luke

See my point No. 5 in the above instructional post. I suppose one could use a neck size die to do the same thing, but care would have to be taken not to turn the case neck into the bullet and damage it. Most bullet seating dies have a crimp ring in them.

1. Put an empty case in the press shell holder, run ram to the top and screw the die down until it stops. It is now touching the bottom of the crimp ring.

2. Adjust the bullet seating stem to seat your bullets to the desired depth and seat your run of bullet over the powdered and charged cases.

3. Now back off the seating stem a few turns and lower the die about 1/32 or a turn.

4. Run a loaded round into the die and it should straighter out the bell/flair. Adjust as necessary.

5. Now run the seating stem back down to contact the loaded round and lock it down.

6. Proceed to straighted out all of the case mouths of the loaded rounds.

[frnkeore]

I can see no problem with seating in a neck sizer, if you use a bushing type but, my issue with it would be, how do you keep the bullet from falling through the neck, while trying to do it that way.

Frank

[Battis]

Do you realize that is different that the quote you just put up. The other fellow was talking about removed the flair at the cast mouth by running it into a sizing die and you are talking about neck sizing the case. Not the same thing at all.
Good point. Though I don't see much difference in the terminology/description if you only partially resize the neck. But I will try your method.


how do you keep the bullet from falling through the neck, while trying to do it that way.
I load the .41 Swiss with black powder.

[Char-Gar]

Good point. Though I don't see much difference in the terminology/description if you only partially resize the neck. But I will try your method.

A crimp die/ring will just straighten the case mouth or turn it over into the bullet depending on how much crimp is used. A case sizing die will reduce the case neck parallel for as far as you run the case into the die.

The problem with a crimp is if is turned into the bullet the cast bullet will pass over the crimp and shave lead from the bullet unless the pressure is high enough to blow out the case neck so the crimp is either straightened out or otherwise not in the way of the bullet as it goes sliding by.

Jacketed bullet being as hard as they are can bully their way past any case mouth constriction without damage.

I should think the pressures generated by black powder are rather low. Most of the guy who shoot long range black powder cartridge matches do not crimp their loads. Like you, they utilize the powder charge to keep the bullets in the case where they belong.

Crimps/case mouth constrictions are sometimes necessary to keep the bullets from being shoved back in the case via feeding in the autpistol ot the pressure of the rounds on top in a tubular magazine. In a revolver heavy recoil can cause the bullet to move forward out of the case tying up the rotation of the cylinder. Crimps/case mouth constructions are sometimes a necessary evil, but avoid them whenever you can and life will be easier.

The fit of the bullet in the case neck (if done right) will produce the proper tension for good combustion. Black powder and smokeless powder are entirely different critters in this regard.

[Battis]

The Vetterli cartridges have to be 2.2" to use in the tubular magazine. With a .429 (short) bullet that I use, I have to cut the cases at approx. 1.70", which means they have to be belled/expanded, then "resized" at the neck/mouth. When I use a bullet closer to the original, approx. 1" long, I can cut the cases to 1.45" and get the necessary 2.2" without resizing or expanding the cases. But they have to be crimped to use in the mag.

[sundog]

Just a thought.... Using a .312ish boolit so as to fill the throat, you wind up working the neck too much sizing and loading. See this thread on hybrid '06/.303 neck sizing (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?168484-Hybrid-06-303-Lee-Neck-Sizer/page2&highlight=mandrel) to see how I got around the problem on an 03A3. Also when doing this neck sizing procedure you really need to turn the neck to get ever concentric. Just offering a suggestion.

[GBertolet]

Try using a Lee .303 British collet neck sizer on the 30-40. The 303 and 30-40 cases are almost identical. I have had good success doing this. The mandel of the .303 collet sizer is proportioned for .311 or so bullets. If needed, you can turn the mandel down a thousandth or so in a drill press using emery cloth to get a more snug bullet fit. Plus you never need to lube the cases. With most cast bullet loads, you can go many times before needing to FL size.

[Battis]

Sundog, I have to re-read that post a few times before it sinks in.
My local shop has a used die section and I saw some .303 dies, but I have to go back to see what they were. Madsenshooter suggested the .303 expander die for the cast bullets. Bigger bullets make sense.

[Battis]

Shooting update.
.309180 cast bullets with gas checks, pushed by 32 gr H4895 did well (less than 50 yds). Without the gas checks, they formed perfect sideways bullet outlines in the paper when they found the paper. Kinda like shooting arrows without feathers.
.311 bullets should do better.

[madsenshooter]

"Kinda like shooting arrows without feathers" I've done that! Killed an air conditioner! I'd shot an arrow out into a field, recovered it and one fletching was torn off by the grass. Tried shooting it and it curved 90 degrees right into the window unit airconditioner of my trailer. Pssssssssst! Had to pay the landlord for that little course deviation.