9mm Gymnastics

[bdthaxton]

This is my first post here, so please try to be kind. I've been lurking and learning here for a while now.

I have been trying to cast any boolit that will actually fly straight from a 9mm handgun since sometime last summer. All I have been able to produce is the tumbling, keyhole act. I've cast and shot many other boolits with great results, just not a 9.

Initially I started out with a Lee tumble lube 124gr TC which gave miserable results. I concluded (with no evidence) it was the truncated cone design and bought the round nose version which of course gave the exact same miserable tumbling results. I read somewhere these molds were troublesome so I sort of tabled the project and went on to other things.

Recently, I ran across a couple of threads here where people were using the Lee .358 105gr SWC in their 9s. This seemed like the perfect idea, as the boolit could be sized from .356 to .358 or not sized at all. I figured this should cover all the bases if it is a sizing issue.

So yesterday was the final failing test. The 105gr sized to .358, water-quenched (just in case) and just another tumbling act.

In all my trials, I have ensured that I have not over crimped thus reducing the boolit size. I have loaded from mild to wild with numerous powders and still the boolit gymnastics.

My test gun throughout this has been my faithful Sig P226 which has had many thousands of commercial cast rounds shot through it with no key holing or accuracy issues. I one point I tried a Berretta 92FS for giggles and nothing changed.

Had about 20 left of my tumblers and decided last night to load them in 38 Special. Shot those today out of a 4" Taurus and they were perfect. Cut the prettiest round holes.

I am at a complete loss on this. Not even sure what to try next. All ears for any and all suggestions.

[Sgtonory]

Are you useing a lee factory crimp die? How are you sizeing the boolits? How are you flareing the case? Have you pulled a loaded boolit to see if it is still the same size as before you loaded it?

[stephenj]

an often asked question .... have you slugged your bore.

there isnt anything that will keyhole faster then an undersized bullet .

slug your bore so you know your groove dia , and measure your boolits ... with a micrometer

[treadwm]

bdthaxton,
Sorry to hear your having so much trouble. I started out casting for a Sig 226 in 9mm also. I must say I never experienced the tumbling issue and I have shot most everything in the 115 - 147gn range in it. Anything I cast gets sized to .357. But I've had good luck using SNS cast bullets that were sized .356.
I'd follow Sgtonory's suggestion, pull a few bullets and check them for size and deformation. Any crimp die set too aggressively can cause problems.

The fact they shot well out of the revolver makes me suspect sizing somewhere. The more experienced guys always suggest slugging your barrel so you know for sure what you need.
What your lead composition? I have good luck with straight WW, no quenching. Harder is not always the answer.

Hopefully some of this helps you get back on track to making accurate round holes again. :-) Also, try searching the forum. The 9mm question comes fairly regular.

EDIT: And welcome aboard!

[MtGun44]

I have never actually had these problems myself, but many friends in KS and here have had
them. Size to .357 or .358, avoid tumble lube, verify that your seated boolit is not smaller
than before you seated it (inertial puller).

I use the Lee 120 TC conventional lube design with either NRA 50-50 formula or LBT soft blue.

Have you read the sticky on "Setting up a new 9mm for boolits"? It may help.

Bill

[HeavyMetal]

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest you shine the harsh light of day on the boolit bases, use a strong magnifiying glass and see if the base is sharp clean and well filled out.

I see commercial cast working fine here, thinking you are doing the loading, so why would your home cast fail?

Boolits with poor base fill out will act just like a bad muzzle crown: escaping gas will tip the boolit in the opposite direction of the poor sealing surface of the base causing the tumbling problem.

Suggest you sort with a very Harsh QC mind set: only perfect and nothing else and stop tumble lubing your not helping the base of the boolit any doing that, LOL!

Pan lube the perfect ones you cast and see if that cures the problem.

HM

[wv109323]

Please keep us posted with your progress. I have a CZ 75 P-07 with the same problems. I have the RCBS 124 TC and size at .358. Lube is caranbua red. I get keyholeing with 3.5 and 4.0 gns. of BE powder. I use the Dillon powder funnel for sizing. I need to find what I am doing wrong myself.

[bdthaxton]

To answer some of the questions. I have and have not used a Lee factory crimp die. Hasn't made any difference one way or another. I have pulled boolits it make sure they were the same size as when loaded and they were.

Boolits have be sized with the Lee sizing dies. All have been tumble lubed.

I've flared the cases with a variety of dies and to the extreme where I could almost seat them by hand.

I have not slugged my bore. I understand the reason why, but if I can randomly grab a commercially cast boolit that is say .357 and I size my cast boolit to the same and both are the same weight, etc., I think I could expect similar performance from both. I have loaded thousands of commercial cast boolits with absolutely no care as to their size and have had no issues with this particular SIG or any of the other cast of 9mm characters hanging out in the safe.

As for alloy, it is just wheel weights.

I find it amazing that something that should be relatively simple, can be this hard.

[bdthaxton]

HM, If the weather straightens out tomorrow (I'm a front porch caster), I'll cast some and post some pictures and let you tell me if you think they are good enough. They look good to me, but obviously, I'm doing something wrong.

[Jupiter7]

A few questions?

Are your lee sizers actually sizing what they are marked? Have you mic'd them after sizing?

Is there any leading, if so where? Front or rear of barrel, all, chamber?

What about lube? LLA? 2 coats? How thick?

As you know, the problem lies with your cast boolits, has to be a solution. Maybe try someone else's here home cast boolits and check their work against yours.

[runfiverun]

your posts actually point the way you need to go.
if the commercial cast boolits do what you want,,, mimic them.
a 9m mold from HM-2 made from a slightly harder alloy should be an excellent replacement for the store-boughts that work for you currently.

tumbling or not quite stabilized boolits point to them either not gripping the rifling well enough [too small or skidding]
or they are not being driven fast enough to stabilize..

[btreanor]

I had the same issues with the 9mm when I first started. In my experience, I found that I had to go to a slower-burning powder (along with a bullet sized at 0.358") in the 9mm to get good results in my Euro-pistols. I know you said that you have tried numerous powders, but I would suggest you give HS-6 a try. It's worked the best for me in my 9mm's. Good luck and keep us informed with your progress!

[bdthaxton]

And the answer is.......

Use a slower powder! Head is still spinning over this. btreanor gets the gold star!

Sure enough, back in the corner of my powder shelf was an old bottle of HS-6. I'm guessing I had tried it for some load and obviously had no luck with as I never bought anymore.

Took a guess at a starting load and made up some .357 and some .358 out of my left over casts. Fired the .357 first. Not a single keyhole and grouped pretty well. Same with the .358. The accuracy isn't there, but the load turned out to be really light. Now that I have a baseline, I can start to work up a real load and see what kind of accuracy or leading issues I may or may not have. At least I have round holes!

So the million dollar question, can someone please explain why a slower powder would prevent a boolit from tumbling in a 9mm? Same boolit and faster powder didn't tumble loaded in 38 special.

Thanks to everyone for there suggestions. All good. Just wished I had started this thread months ago.

[tazman]

Lots of factors. Different twist of rifling between the guns. different height of rifling. different speed(you may get the tumble back at higher velocities).
Higher pressure in the 9mm than the 38 special loads. Possibly higher speeds than the 38 special. Probably lots of stuff I haven't mentioned.

[geargnasher]

Your boolits must be too soft. Are you shooting them right after casting? It takes a bit for them to age-harden. You don't mention the alloy, but a .38 Special can shoot wax boolits very accurately while a 9mm with fast powder may require 15 bhn or harder to shoot straight. Most commercial boolits are at least that hard. Consider Tazman's post above for factors contributing to the issues you're having.

Expect the HS6 loads to start tumbling the boolits as you reach a certain power level.

The 9mm and .40 give a lot of people trouble because things that work in other calibers they cast for don't necessarily work well in the 9mm and .40 guns, which were NEVER intended for cast boolits and are often throated wrong for the purpose. The twist rates and the relative thickness/hardness of the small, high-pressure cases don't play well with cast like .45 ACP and .38/357 do. 9mm and .40 commercial reloading dies aren't very well suited for cast, either, particularly with regard to expander spud diameter and length.

Gear

[MtGun44]

"all have been tumble lubed."

Tumble lube has not been particularly successful for 9mm. I strongly recommend that
you switch to Lee 356 120 TC conventional lube cast from air cooled wwts and lubed with NRA 50-50 or
LBT soft blue, sized to .358 (if that will chamber). Odds are that this will work, it works
in 6 or 7 different 9mms that I have shot it in.

Compared to revolvers, most 9mm have faster twist bbls and shallower rifling. I have had no
problems with air cooled wwts (roughly 12 BHN) but some have found a need for slightly harder,
although commercial cast are usually way harder than this - but undersized, too.

Bill

[dverna]

You got some great advice. I agree with the others who mentioned harder alloy and a better lube. The 9mm is running around 30,000 psi. It is not a .38 Spl. (at just over 1/2 the pressure of a 9mm).


Don Verna

[Finarfin]

Sorry if this is a repeat.

Pull a bullet from a loaded round and measure the diameter. Might be resizing during seating or crimping.

[Cherokee]

My most loaded\shot 9mm ammo is a Lee 120TC (conventinal lube) with CR lube cast from 3/3/94 alloy sized .356 and powered by 6.2 gr HS6 @ 1.055" OAL. Accurate and 100% reliable in my XDM's, 1911's, High Power and Witness. I found a harder alloy was needed for accuracy. Work up to the 6.2 gr for your gun. It can be done, don't give up.

[plainsman456]

And remember they quit making HS-6 a while ago.

I use it for my 15/8oz turkey loads in my 12 gauge.

[harley45]

They still make hs6 it's hs_7 that was replaced with something else just can't remember what

[MtGun44]

HS7 = W571 = all gone

Bill

[Cherokee]

HS6 (the old W540) is still manufactured.

[kingemandigger]

My rule of thumb when developing a new load for cast boolits is to use powders on the slower-slowest burn rate that gives acceptable results with the particular load. The main reason for this is that when using too fast of a powder energy is expended quicker kinda slams into the back of the boolit. This can produce leading and other issues. For 9mm 125 grain loads I have had great success with WSF (winchester super field). With the lee 125 TL RN in a cz 75 I get great performance. Shoot as cast water dropped 50/50 ww pb. Other good powders for heavyer weight boolits are unique and blue dot.