First try with zinc

[Slvrbllt40]

Hello everyone. Your message board has been a fantastic help on getting me started in bullet casting. Casted my first batch of lead for 303 last night and had mixed results. After reading through different threads on here, I realized I wasn't doing the whole flux thing properly and re-casted and they came out great. I got bored today and tried my hand at zinc. They sure came out looking neat. The bullets deffinately shrink more than the lead during cool-down.

I thought I would give a quick run through for anyone that's lurking and thinking of doing the same:

For my zinc, well, it's not something that's hard to find, that's for sure. I bought a 10,000 BTU portable burner from Wal-Mart and a bottle of MAP gas from Home Depot. My melt pan is a little cast iron 4x4 skillet. The burner take about 15 minutes to warm up enough to belt the zinc, but once up to temp, can be turned down to about 75% heat. Zinc melted and oatmealed ALOT until (for flux) I threw an unlit match on top of it (match will ignite on it own) and stirred. Evened it right out. I am using a Lee 303 2 bullet cast. The zinc poors super fast once it starts going and fills the mold up almost instantly. It dries almost as fast, so I really didn't have time to fill the second mold. I had to put the pan back on the fire quick and give the sprue a fast knock on the edge of the table to knock the slag clear of the cast. If it has a chance to set, the only way I could move the sprue was to get my torch out melt the zinc off the top. Every other round I would cool the mould a little using a damp cloth. I am paranoid about over heating it. The finished product is an awesome looking, very even round. They come out small though. It's still a press fit into the casing, but not nearly as tight as the lead. On a hard bullet like this though, better to be on the small side than the big side, for sure. For anybody that is going to cast zinc rounds, I deffinately recommend a seperate mould for the zinc, as it will heat up rather drastically with use and hammering on that sprue can't be good for it.

Thanks again to everyone on the message board. I was really confused about the fluxing process before, but I figured it out with this awesome resource. If anyone is interested, I can take some pics and post them later.

[tomme boy]

Have any pics of the zinc ones that you made?

[bangerjim]

Fluxing confusing??????

1 heat lead
2 throw on saw dust
3 stir & skim
4 repeat 2 more times
5 pour into ingots

Not rocket science. Works for all of us.

You will find your zink-ish boolits will be some what off on weights when you go to look up any load data. Zinc weights less than lead. Good luck on that one.

And the filling problems you had are because zinc melts at a much higher temp than our best friend lead. Be careful or you will break your sprue plate! It should open VERY easily with lead and an up-to-temp mold. You should not have to pound on it.

Welcome to the site and have fun casting..............lead.

bangerjim

[bhn22]

PM sent

[2ridgebacks]

At least your in Cali. Your zinc boolits wont get mixed with the lead at my range.

[snuffy]

Let me get this straight, you just started casting, already venturing into exotic metals?

1. You will destroy your mold.
2. Zinc melts @ 787 degrees, aluminum melts @ 1200. See a problem? Overheat the zinc, melt your mold!
3. You'll give up this foolishness as soon as you attempt to shoot those zoolits.
4. Easily bored people take chances to become un bored. Taking chances will either get you hurt or damage your rifle.

Stick with lead. Stop this BEFORE you damage your mold. Yeah, I know they don't cost much, but I respect equipment, want to make it last.

Oh, welcome to the CB forum!:grin:

[captaint]

Slvrblt - How can I say this politely ?? I don't think you're going to find a lot of interest from members here regarding casting zinc boolits. I think the vast majority of us are preferring to melt lead. There is one member that actually buys zinc WW's or rather he trades them for lead. I'm guessing he makes cannon balls out of it. I could be wrong, though. Good luck in your endeavors. Mike

[Finarfin]

He did it for educational purposes.

[snuffy]

He did it for educational purposes.

Soooooo Slvrbllt40, did you get any smarter?

:kidding:

[nightal]

Slvrblt - How can I say this politely ?? I don't think you're going to find a lot of interest from members here regarding casting zinc boolits. I think the vast majority of us are preferring to melt lead. There is one member that actually buys zinc WW's or rather he trades them for lead. I'm guessing he makes cannon balls out of it. I could be wrong, though. Good luck in your endeavors. Mike

The member you speak of is Shady Grady, he no longer trades Lead for Zinc, he does offer to trade for other Items, I found out to late, I had two 42lb. boxes of Zinc, to ship to him, last month....

[L Ross]

Slvrbllt40, welcome to the forum. There may come a day when the experiments you are conducting are helpful to us all. I will be waiting to hear the results of your work.

Duke

[jonp]

Idk. I find it interesting and im looking forward to hearing his results if he decides to load them up.
Everyone should relax a little. Knowledge expands horizons

[Finarfin]

Soooooo Slvrbllt40, did you get any smarter?

:kidding:

Just thought I would preempt all the wiseacres who like to point out that defacing currency is a crime, except for certain reasons, such as educational purposes.

[madsenshooter]

Lee molds are cheap enough to be considered disposable, that's a plus.

[roysha]

Wow zinc boolits you learned alot from this forum glad to have you aboard as are the other members who relize how silly this is _READ THE STICKIES_ my unclear friend
Quote Originally Posted by bangerjim View Post

Fluxing confusing??????

1 heat lead
2 throw on saw dust
3 stir & skim
4 repeat 2 more times
5 pour into ingots

Not rocket science. Works for all of us.

bangerjim
Some people will never ever get it



People like you and your smart**ed comments are what drive members away. If you don't like what the OP said, let your fingers do the walking and go to the next post or forum.

[Garyshome]

What does zinc do to the bore? That can't be good!

[clodhopper]

What does zinc do to the bore? That can't be good!
Zinc washers to swage on the bottom of lead bullets have been avalible for decades.
Propenents say the zinc washer scrapes leading brom the bore.

[clodhopper]

I find the experimentation to be of great intrest, and think of fast twist barrels, loooong zoolits impacting steel beyond 1000 yards.
Finding out how to do this at home, with modest investment in tools will be great!

[Tonto]

Terrific experiment and thank you, keep it coming, one day there will be a zinc casting thread category and the nay-sayers can choose their next rant. Who would have thought we would be powder painting cast. Some dangerous dude will (gasp) attempt to powder paint a zinc casting....reminds me of the longbow, recurve , compound, cross bow debates.....iron sights vs scopes, black powder vs smokeless. You get the drift..

[sagamore-one]

I think some people are too quick to judge others. I am also "guilty" of dabbling into the unforgiving world of zink casting. The melt needed to be over 850 degrees and you had to cast at an accelerated rate. But at least I know how to make good boolits... even from zink.
Yes, it does stress the equipment , but my H&G iron monsters shrugged off the abuse that probably would have destroyed an aluminum mould.
Inquiring minds just gotta' know.

[jonp]

1 heat lead
2 throw on saw dust
3 stir & skim
4 repeat 2 more times
5 pour into ingots

About as clear cut as it gets

[ubetcha]

This just a thought,but, if a zinc bullet cast's under size and is lighter than lead, could the zinc bullet be paper patched and the paper be used to protect the bore?. Just a off the top of the head question. That hard of a bullet is definitely not good for hunting, but what about for just punching paper targets or long range steel gongs

[USAFrox]

I guess my OCD will have to drive me to be "that guy". The past tense verb for making bullets out of lead (or in this case zinc), is "cast", as in "you cast a bunch of bullets out of zinc a couple of days ago." No such word as "casted".

Sorry, had to say it...

[Recluse]

Some people will never ever get it

Guess I'll never get it either, then.

There was a time here in which we WELCOMED people trying new things and learning things for themselves and experimenting and gleaning some knowledge from those endeavors.

I'm so glad the recent influx of shiny new casters are here to save us from ourselves with their incredible year or two of knowledge--primarily gained here and from other members who dared expose themselves to ridicule by daring to wander off the accepted and beaten path.

A lot of you folks are flat out of line.

For one, this is not how we typically greet a new member making their first post. That's a big one.

Two, unless you live under a rock, lead is getting harder to get and more and more regulated. If you want to keep shooting, you might want to start re-thinking about alternative alloys.

And three, the friggin' "tone" of some of the comments here from relatively new members who seem to think that their way is either the only way or the best way is starting to get old.

Can't believe how much this place has changed in just the past few years.

SMH.

:coffee:

[Old Dawg]

There you done it. Don't you realize that a lot of people take pride in their illiteracy and it is not only on this forum. It is all over the internet.

[tomme boy]

Recluse :2_high5:

I am relatively new here. I don't bash anyone. I am up to hear anyway that is going to help me shoot longer and at a reduced cost. Lead is going to come to a end in my lifetime. There is no way I am going to be able to shoot the copper solids. They will have to be bought. What are you guys going to shoot in another 20 years???

[Old Dawg]

I doubt that home casting of zinc bullets will ever be practical. There is simply too much expensive equipment necessary to make a quality product. Industrial die casting machines are quite capable of producing consistently good bullets but it is doubtful if there are enough shooters brought up on traditional bullets who would be willing to make the conversion. Without a reliable market it would be risky for a die caster to make the investment. I once asked a die caster what it would cost to make a set of commercial dies and was told about $10,000. This is for a multi cavity mass production die set exclusive of the automated die casting machine. Well out of my league.

[Recluse]

I doubt that home casting of zinc bullets will ever be practical. There is simply too much expensive equipment necessary to make a quality product. Industrial die casting machines are quite capable of producing consistently good bullets but it is doubtful if there are enough shooters brought up on traditional bullets who would be willing to make the conversion. Without a reliable market it would be risky for a die caster to make the investment. I once asked a die caster what it would cost to make a set of commercial dies and was told about $10,000. This is for a multi cavity mass production die set exclusive of the automated die casting machine. Well out of my league.

Same sentiments were bantered about right here some seven to eight years ago regarding the coating of boolits in lieu of traditional lubes. Now we have an entire area dedicated to powder coating.

There was a time in which the only way one thought they could tumble-lube was doing it with LLA and waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting and waiting some more for it to dry. Now we have a respected vendor in WLL producing bulk 45/45/10 and a whole new world of casters have been introduced to quick and easy lubing for a variety of purposes.

There was a time around here in which if a mold was too small, you were stuck. Now we have beagling, courtesy of a member of the same namesake, and we have machinists here who will help you out.

There was a time when the only way you could get a hollow-point mold was to order one from Lyman. Now we have machinists here who will modify your mold into a hollow-point application for you. What's more, we have a member here who figured out a way to do it with Lee two-holder molds, no less.

There was a time around here when Lee molds were absolutely hopeless. Have you checked out the Lee-menting stickies? Holy cow! New life to old molds and the Lee-menting opened up the door for a LOT of new casters to get a feel for pouring their own without having to invest big bucks.

There was a time with Lee furnaces, and even Lymans, that the temp setting was a guestimate and you had to put up with wandering temperatures of your molten alloy. Now we not only a sticky dedicated entirely to making your own PID controller, we have a member who will also do it for you.

There was a time not so long ago in which conventional wisdom--including respected gun writers--said you couldn't push lead projectiles over 1000fps without leading, and that you'd never be able to push lead projectiles out of rifle calibers much over 2000fps. We've blown that conventional wisdom to hell and back.

Zinc? I've read a lot of stuff on it and how it can never work. Same as I used to read how only LLA could be used effectively for tumble-lubing and how powder-coating would never be practical (read: affordable) for the average caster and how you'd never be able to get a Lee furnace to keep a constant temperature and so on and so on.

I remain a paying, sponsoring member of this forum because of the NEW ideas and NEW things I'm constantly learning.

There are plenty of other forums out there with experts who will tell you it can't be done. This ain't one of 'em.

:coffee:

[brotherdarrell]

I dont usually get in the middle of these things but the response by some just amazes me!!!

"I have more respect for my molds", really? Its a $20 hunk of aluminum that could fall apart at any moment.

To the OP I want to give a big thank you for taking the time to not only try something a little different but for also sharing the results. I also hope that you continue so those of us who arent closed minded can learn along with you. Weights and diameters would be some good information also.

I think tomorrow I will grab my Lyman 405 gr 45/70 mold and pour some molten zinc in it. Dont worry, it has never come close to .458" with lead so it has not earned my "respect".

Thank you again sir.

Darrell

[RJM52]

I remember reading an article on zinc bullets for handguns many years ago. As I recall they are about 30% lighter than lead ones. They could be driven very fast with only modest recoil.

A friend once had a Lyman .44 180 grain spire point mould that was damaged so he milled off the gascheck base of the mould. I have always wondered what that bullet cast from zinc would be like for a defensive round at say 1600 fps...easily obtainable as the lead ones would due more that....and little recoil.

Thanks for the post 40...one more thing to think about....

Bob

[MGySgt]

Zinc and Powder Coat???? Might be the way of the future shooters.

[mrbill2]

Time will come we'll be buying custom Accurate molds to cast zinc. Are you ready, Tom.

[fryboy]

on the bright side ? zinc ( powder coated or not ) can in no way lead up your barrel ;)

[leadman]

Zinc is self lubricating so no additional lube needed. Zinc has been cast successfully in years past and from the article I read in a Handloader's Digest it was not that difficult. The author fluxed the zinc with aspirin tablets.
I have been saving up my zinc and will try casting with it probably this summer.
The article did mention to use a mold that dropped a zinc bullet that would not have to be sized to make it usable.
To the OP: no reason for you to not experiment with zinc. Sometimes what is needed is a person that doesn't know it won't work to go ahead and make it work.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Recluse, that's an epic post if I ever saw one. :drinks:

[sawzall]

Recluse, that's an epic post if I ever saw one. :drinks:

Probably one of the best posts I've read on here...or anywhere for that matter! Too bad it's so long or it would be great sig material!

[Jammersix]

Confucious say man who says it can't be done shouldn't interrupt the man who is doing it.

[jonp]

I think some people are too quick to judge others. I am also "guilty" of dabbling into the unforgiving world of zink casting. The melt needed to be over 850 degrees and you had to cast at an accelerated rate. But at least I know how to make good boolits... even from zink.
Yes, it does stress the equipment , but my H&G iron monsters shrugged off the abuse that probably would have destroyed an aluminum mould.
Inquiring minds just gotta' know.

Yes, but what were your results? Did you load them up and how did they compare to the lead ones.

I have been on this site for only a year or so and just took the plunge several weeks ago and started casting doing much reading and research beforehand but I am one of "those guys" that can't leave well enough alone and despite what I read about casting zinc will most likely buy a lee mold and use that bucket of zinc ww I have up to see what happens for myself and compare it to other results.

Those who say "It can't be done" are those to whom people like me say "oh, yeah? Stay the heck out of my way and watch me at least try"

[roysha]

Many years ago (35 or so and the bullets were old then) I acquired a box of ABC (Arizona Bullet Company) .30 caliber bullets through a trade for a bunch of stuff. (I'm a STUFF kinda guy). They were silver colored and made of one piece of metal. I really didn't pay much attention to them (actually none at all) and later threw them into another box of stuff that I sold at auction. I remember thinking they were perhaps made of aluminum but seemed quite heavy for aluminum. In retrospect, I believe they may have been zinc. Whether they were cast, swaged or turned, I haven't a clue.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that zinc projectiles have more than likely been around for quite a while and I would speculate that within a couple of years casting zinc will, in all likelihood, be as routine as casting our beloved lead. The infrastructure is in place and it will only require a bit of tuning as regards tools and technique.

[MrWolf]

+1 Recluse - well said

[snuffy]

If I insulted anybody, then I'm sorry. But I tend to tell it like it is. Or at least the way I think it is. Sometimes I should just not post a reply, or at least give it a day to think it through.

JD, I respect your opinions greatly, I look forward to your posts, even if it's to chastise me! :(

I too have been one to say to others, whaddya mean I can't reload those steel cases? Or you name it.

I'm not giving up on lead yet. Hopefully we can get past the dummy-in-chief in the whitehouse without an out and out ban on lead projectiles. Possibly my son will have to deal with non-lead bullets, but I hope not. IF we stick to our principles, then elect a good conservative POTUS, then we can continue casting our boolits?!

Remember, copper is also toxic. Could it be that they're leading us to an alternate metal to only say," now we have to ban copper bullets too?" Is zinc also toxic?

Slvrbllt40, come back to us. MOST of are nice guys & gals.[smilie=s:

[8mmFan]

Super Cool! Not saying I'll be running out to trade what little lead I still have for zinc but, if "those who are saving us from ourselves" keep making it harder and harder to find lead, and it leads to more and more zinc around, you can bet I'll be figuring out how to make "Zoolits", as a prior poster coined them. Good on ya, and please keep us posted! Kudos to your curiosity and to your active nature!

Please keep us posted as to how they shoot. 8mmFan

[Smoke4320]

not going to copy your entire post but well said Recluse

looking to the future and having members that are willing to experiment IS the way to the future..

a year ago I was a jacketed only shooter. Started looking/reading here about powder coating
now I have approx. 30 molds 2 pots a PID and 1500 lbs of alloy/lead/lino.. plus I have turned on casting to at least 6 new people as well
ALL that is BECAUSE people here were willing to answer my newbie questions and guide me gently along (big thanks to Mr Gibson for answering PM's) till I could fly solo..
You never know that the one person you turn off to this site could have been the one who made the biggest discovery casting would have seen

[Slvrbllt40]

Hello everyone. The fuel pump went out on my '73 Dodge, so I've been a little busy in my free time. Thanks for the responses. It's pretty awesome that there seem to be quite a few people on here that are open to giving the less traveled route a chance. Some of the negative comments I was getting on this post bummed me out at first, but after coming back a few days later and seeing all the positive posters, wow. That's a good feeling. Here is a pic of my .303 slugs as they sit right now
97036
My camera on my phone is a bit crummy. Sorry about that. Anyhow, I am awaiting some more primers that should be here any day now. I plan on making some 20% ballistics gel and test firing these in the desert in 2 or 3 weeks. I am also thinking of casting a few more of these zinc fellas to test a "zinc jacketed" type round. Drill out the inside of the bullet after casting, then fill the cavity with lead. Maybe the slight additional weight will increase accuracy at distance, help with penetrating power, or maybe the jacket will fly apart. I dunno, but I hope to find out.

[woodbutcher]

:grin:Now this sounds interestin.I was introduced to casting by my Grandfather when I was 7 years old(1952)hehe.Yeah I`m an old fart.HE was doing it in the 1880`s.He was DEFINITELY an old fart.Miss the hell out of him.Had a lot of fun learning from him.Only had 3 years of his teaching before he passed at 88 years old.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[pretzelxx]

Well... I'll be catching up on this in a few weeks I suppose. Guess I won't scrap ny 40lbs of Zink just yet.. no way I'll venture to shoot it myself, but if others can use it...

[Slvrbllt40]

Steel rod is deffinately a possibility. I'm willing to give just about any idea (within reason haha) a try. One thing I have learned in my years of racing cars and motorcycles is this: you can't win if you just cop 1st place. In other words, just because nobody has does it, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Sure, sometimes it end up being a waste of time, but sometimes it doesn't. That's enough reason to give it a try. A lot of people told me fire slots don't work in cylinder heads, that stone cutting valves on a Harley doesn't work, scavenging oil from the crankshaft cavity is a waste of time, and that I couldn't balance my own flywheels.

Lead is going to only get harder to come by. I want to know what options I have before I no longer have any options.

[sig .357]

[QUOTE=Slvrbllt40;2639104]Hello everyone. (Delete)

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Steel rod is deffinately a possibility.

I know steel core ammo is nothing new. I was thinking that if the zink or steel is too hard it could be sized smaller than the barrel then built back up with a few thick layers of powder coat, so only the PC is getting squished.

Maybe it wouldn't work, but just a thought.

[Whiterabbit]

Hi guys, and hi silverblt40.

Also in CA here, and I've also done some zinc casting. I have fully loaded and shot my rounds. Here are my learnings, they may help you and others:

1. casting is just fine, temps have to be higher.
2. I DO respect my tooling, I do not buy disposable molds. All my experimentation was using a steel mold, and for onsey-twosey experimentation, it went just fine. Dunno about longevity, but the idea that zinc will destroy an AL mold is not a showstopper. just use a steel mold.
3. load data isn't easy to find. The weight is SO light that you might find no load data for that bullet weight. Theoretically you treat it like a barnes bullet. can't use the same weight load data, gotta go down a little more in charge. Well, I had to interpolate to get there. Your mileage may vary.
4. I have no accuracy data, I was more concerned about form and function at the range. I shot them at 25 yards. My memory of the accuracy was "this has potential, and is worth working with more"
5. Alloy. I was using Zn wheelweights, but it's simple. just like a wee of Zn oatmeals up your lead, a wee of lead in your Zn will oatmeal up. pure either way is OK. Sawdust to flux. Not really fluxing, it's just "bonding" to your lead oatmeal and other contaminates and you pull it out of the melt. good to go. As you saw.
6. you're gonna use ALOT of powder cause the bullet weight is so light. enjoy the muzzle flash. I mean that. :)
7. IMO post cast work is a waste of time. HP, lead filled, steal core, ballistics gell test, waste of time. Get the gun accurate, man! no lube needed. Load and shoot. shoot paper. find something that gets you to a couple MOA accuracy. Shoot them over a chronograph. if there's no "potential" as cast, then it's a waste of time to shoot gel, to core and pour lead or press steel pins, etc.
8. you can size just fine. Just start with push through sizers on a strong press and don't oversize. They'll go. no problem.

Enjoy it. but getting too complicated too fast is a recipe for failure. forget lube, forget powder coating, forget HP, and forget the ballistics gel. You can make more (bullets). Get out and shoot!

[geargnasher]

Glad this got back on track and all the naysayers got a sock put in it.

Something important about zinc wheel weights (I assume that's what's being discussed as a primary zinc source?) that isn't mentioned much is that they aren't pure zinc and don't melt at 787F. The ones I've played with are composed of something akin to Zamak #3 and melt around 700 or so , which is one reason they get melted in with lead alloy weights so easily during "smelting" operations.

Doesn't anyone remember Jbunny? Or the electric shaver vibrating mould platform to prevent coring? This is NOT new, and quite a few members have shot zinc boolits with very good results, so I don't understand all the criticism of the zinc boolit idea here. I almost thought I was on a different forum for a minute! Lots of advantages to zinc, although they don't so far seem to be ideal for hunting game animals. Keep up the work fellas, there IS something to this.

Gear

[Whiterabbit]

OP is using pennies. You can see them in his pic.

[jakec]

i cast some zinc lee 230 gn tl. i didnt know it was zinc. it poured some beautiful boolits, just like OP nice looking boolits, but they were very light and very hard. i was scared to shoot them as i didnt know what would happen. im new to casting and loading. i ended up melting a hole in my aluminum pot and spilling molten zinc on everything. i kept the few i did because they look so cool. traded all my zinc away though. looking forward to the results of this testing.

[sagamore-one]

My attempts on casting zink were mostly H&G 68's out of a 6 cavity H&G mould, around 400 pieces. I recall the accuracy was very good. The 200 gr 68 mould dropped boolits around 150- 155gr in zink. When recovered the boolits were virtually undamaged by the dirt backstop prompting me to think about reusing them.
When I broke the handle right off my Star sizer I discontinued casting zink. I size to .452.
But at least I know I can do it if need be.

[geargnasher]

OP is using pennies. You can see them in his pic.

Ahhh. Thanks.

Gear

[Old Dawg]

Why powder coat? Zinc does not need to be lubricated. Another case of gilding the lily.

[Old Dawg]

Do you mine your own iron ore, smelt it, alloy it, cast it in your basement, roll it into bars. deep hole drill it and rifle it all in your basement. There is a big different between a superficial coating (painting?) that requires minimal capital investment and the manufacture of a consistent precision product. After all how many people make their own bullet molds from scratch? How many have the tools to do so even if they cared?

[Slvrbllt40]

I am heading out to the range tomorrow to test fire a few of the zinc rounds as well as some of the lead I loaded. My lead rounds weighed in at 185 gn while the zinc was 120. I had load data for a round as light as 123, which called for 37 gn of powder, so I went with 32, to be a little safe. Hopefully all goes well. I will post some pics and my un-scientific findings afterwards.

[mikeym1a]

Good luck with the zinc. It's harder than lead but softer then the mild steel jackets many militaries use with little ill effect on the gun barrels. Being harder, if it is properly sized, it should spin just fine. I know nothing about zinc, but, I think I would still put some alox on it, just for general principals. That is what I would do. I am not advising you to do so. Some have said lube is not necessary. That may well be. I do not know. But, do post results. A lot of us are interested in this. Cheers! 8-)

[Old Dawg]

The lighter weight of zinc bullets call for a faster burning powder than for the same bullet cast in lead. That should cut down on muzzle flash.

Zinc is softer than copper or soft iron. No reason for it to cause wear.

[turbo1889]

I am extremely saddened by some of the posts in this thread. There is at least one member who has posted in this thread that based on action in this thread I have put name on my very short list of members I will have no dealings with. My sadness is turning to anger.


I have been casting with zinc for ( . . . this portion of post deleted by original poster . . .) for many years now. I have dedicated equipment I have developed over the years for doing so successfully including custom casting pot that ( . . . this portion of post deleted by original poster . . .) and dedicated ( . . . this portion of post deleted by original poster . . .) block molds that the zinc is ( . . . this portion of post deleted by original poster . . .). I have also developed a ( . . . this portion of post deleted by original poster . . .) to prepare the boolits for loading.

I have posted several times in the past years about my developments and the accuracy and terminal ballistic results that have resulted but have gotten push back at times.

This thread proves beyond a reasonable doubt the wisdom of my relative silence over the last couple years in this regard. When lead is banned I most likely WILL NOT be sharing my methods with you SWINE !!!

I am seeing more and more of this kind of **** **** ****-****** on this board over the last year or so and not on just this subject or just the general section. This attitude is starting to show up more and more even in my favorite section of this board for which there is no good substitute that I know of anywhere else online. This may be my last post on this board. I'm sick of this vicious blood thirsty ******* attitude that attack anyone doing anything different and especially something that they know nothing about by their own admission.



Reason for Editing:

I just finished deleting everything I have ever posted about casting with zinc on this forum over the last half plus decade including information for custom casting tools and mold technology I have developed by trial and error over time because I have decided I will not share any of the knowledge I have learned over the years about casting with zinc due to the bloodthirsty prejudiced posts of some members on this forum viciously attacking those who cast with zinc. I will not share my knowledge with the enemy. I will not leave the information up in old posts for them to find later on. I would strongly encourage an and all of those who have learned how to successfully cast with zinc to do likewise, sooner or later the prejudiced bloodthirsty swine who have attacked us for years are going to have lead banned in their area and they are going to need the info, we should not give it to them, swine like them don't deserve to have the knowledge available when they need it themselves later on.

[Boaz]

I thought the post was interesting . At some point in the not too distant future we may be seeking an alternative for lead as a casting material . Thanks for taking the time to give your results Slvrbllt40 !

[singleshot]

I plan to try zinc roundballs in my 12 ga shotgun. Why? They are light enough to use conventional 12 ga components. Expansion upon impact? Ha ha ha, surely you jest! Did I mention it's a 70+ caliber projectile? Also, zinc projectiles in rifles can be pushed as hard as j-words and have less ill effect on the barrel. With the proper nose profile, expansion isn't really necessary anyway. I think zinc would be a great use for the 300 Blackout mold from Lee, that would keep the nose from slumping over upon firing.

[Janoosh]

Lakeville Arms was the company with the zinc washers on the boolit.
Well said Recluse.
Well said turbo 1889.
Slvrbllt40...keep up the good work. What leads me to experiment is a statement about how many times Edison failed before he perfected the light bulb.
Powder coating not only lubricates, but increases cast diameter. Apologies for rambling but so much was posted and assumed.

[Janoosh]

Turbo..I enjoy the knowledge you share concerning shotgun slugs. Dont leave us now.
Experimentation equals the growth of knowledge. It is impossible for some of us to sit by and stagnate. I need to know if the experiment worked, and why....or if it failed, and why.
Thanks

[JeffinNZ]

Like some others I am more than disappointed by standard of some of the posts in this thread. Are you all going to play nicely or shall I lock it?

The NRA E.H. Harrision book has material relating to Zn alloy bullets used with success. As pointed out Harvey Protex Bore bullets used a Zn washer.

I am looking forward to some tests and results.

[prs]

Recluse hit a grand slam. I can see reason for Turbo to be offended/frustrated, but to punish the whole community due to brash negative comments of a few? Well, I reckon such is entirely up to him; but if he reconsiders sEe we will be the better for it.

prs

[Smoke4320]

Turbo
I would look at it completely different .. continue to post till they get it thru their thick skulls it for all members benefit to push the envelope.. to go where no man has gone before... to explore new worlds (yes I stole that from star trek ) buts its true .. the future will be in new alloys / metals and zink could be one of those..the more info we get the better ALL of us will be !!

[Hickok]

N-SSA members are using zinc cast rounds in mortars, and in cannon, smooth bore and rifled, for live fire competition, just saying.

[MrWolf]

Please continue to post your results with zinc or anything else. Just because a few don't have the manners they were taught (or should have learned) and try to disrupt what others have done is no reason to even acknowledge them. I have learned it is a heck of a lot easier sitting on the sideline making comments than actually playing in the game. I just ignore the irrelevant comments and read the informative information. As prs said please don't take it out on the rest of us - we appreciate the effort.

[trapper9260]

I am here to learn and also who ever have new Ideas to try.There is not a set way of doing things.I know I seen on other websites that some think just that.but i do not stay on that site anymore.What someone try and make it work is what i like to learn.like some said that who knows what we will need to use in the years to come.Thanks to those that are willing to shear what they try and how all works out for them.I am always looking for new ideas and some day will need to use them for my self.nothing is writtien in stone i been told years ago.

[Janoosh]

Kirksite...That's the name I was trying to remember. Didn't the U.S.Military use kirksite bullets for training rounds circa WW 2 ?? Isn't Kirksite a zinc composite??. Hope I'm not wandering off topic, but was just thinking.

[KYShooter73]

Kirksite...That's the name I was trying to remember. Didn't the U.S.Military use kirksite bullets for training rounds circa WW 2 ?? Isn't Kirksite a zinc composite??. Hope I'm not wandering off topic, but was just thinking.

Aka - Zamak 2 - 4% al, 3% cu, 93% zn. 835 degrees to cast. Not a far jump from our casting temps. Interesting.

[lkydvl]

Clod hopper,

I have a Harvey Protex bore mold that takes the zinc washers but have been unable to locate any. Do you know of a source?

Should anyone have a quantity of Zinc for sale or trade I'd be interested as I have a 2.25 inch cannon that is in need of more ammo!

Andre`

[Recluse]

Why powder coat? Zinc does not need to be lubricated. Another case of gilding the lily.

Powder coating allows you to add diameter to undersized boolits. I'm waiting for the day when someone figures out how to add a compound to powder-coating that not only will increase the diameter of an undersized zinc boolit, but that will also add weight.

When it happens, I'm willing to water it'll happen here with one of our forum members.

:coffee:

[A pause for the COZ]

Yup all the guys poo poo'ed powder coating too.
Now look.

Its new guys who are not beholden to old ideas that usually find the next big thing.
Be careful though, Being the trail buster usually ends up stepping in a hole or two.

I am curious about zinc bullets that are powder coated. Not terribly curious yet. Still have my hands full learning powder coating.

[Mallard57]

Slvrbllt40,
My hat is off to anyone willing to pioneer a new concept.
Good Luck!!!!
Thank You
Jeff

[dsbock]

With lead wheel weights sources evaporating, I'm following this thread with keen interest. The specifications of Kirksite AKA Zamak-2 sounds promising.

Andre, I sent you a Private message.

David

[Silverboolit]

Would you size over for zinc like you do for lead? A .308 win rifle takes a jacketed .308 projetile, would you cast a .308 zinc projectile? I know that you over size (.310) for lead to take the rifling and not let gas escape.

[MUSTANG]

I would think that Zink (harder than all of our lead alloys) would benefit from a Powder Coating to make it .309 for starts. All of my Zink was cast into a concrete retaining wall in Nevada, so I'll have to collect some more after we see some results on the testing.

[sigep1764]

Any news on these zinc boolits? All this hubbub has got me interested. And those were some shiny pretty boolits!

[mauser1959]

I had been wondering about Zinc for my 270 , as the bullet would be light enough to really push it out there . I am glad that someone is looking into how it is done , and even more specific that some have others have went further with it than i have . Keep up the good work , those of you who are working on Zn , I think that there is a big potential there .

[psychicrhino]

Wow, I am new to casting but as I creep up on 40 I wonder about the future of shooting/hunting for my boys that are now 7 and 8 years old. I stumbled upon this thread because in sorting ww I am starting to accumulate more zinc and I think I have stumbled on another source of zinc alloy recently. I must say that reading this thread was a bit like riding a drunken roller coaster. Just when you think the wild ride is over, it veers off again. I feel pretty rotten for the OP as he sounded like a decent dude, probably just trying to share some of his ideas....likely as a way to payback for lots learned while lurking. That's what I try to do anyway. I know I don't have much to offer yet but given a chance I might.

Anyway, I agree with what many posters said about looking forward to the future and dancing to the beat of your own drum sometimes. I hope the OP comes back someday and posts again.

[62chevy]

Powder coating allows you to add diameter to undersized boolits. I'm waiting for the day when someone figures out how to add a compound to powder-coating that not only will increase the diameter of an undersized zinc boolit, but that will also add weight.

When it happens, I'm willing to water it'll happen here with one of our forum members.

:coffee:

Why not copper plate them? I've seen it done on Youtube but yet to see anyone even talk about it here.

[Whiterabbit]

may as well paper patch at that point.

[MGySgt]

The difference in Paper Patch vice Powder Coat or plating is speed. You can do the powder coating or plating in large batches where as paper plating is done one at a time.

Goes along with 4-6 cavity moulds and volume of boolits turned out for a given time.

[2AMMD]

Just my Thoughts:
There was a magazine article where zinc bullets were tested and actually performed ok. I can't retrieve the article, that PC died and i didn't save it anywhere else. But.
Zinc is lighter than lead. So load workup's should start with lighter lead bullet data.
Zinc is harder than lead but softer than copper or brass so I don't see the damage aspect if the bullets are lubed like lead rounds.
Go for it and if it works great...if not nothing lost.
2AMMD

[Slvrbllt40]

Finally I had a chance to shoot the .303 zinc rounds out of the Enfield. With changing shops, work and having to find a day to go all the way to the desert, it's been tough. I am happy to say that they worked great. Unfortunately, I didn't get any kind of technical data. Hopefully next time I will have access to a chrono at least. But, I do know they blew right through a 1/4 piece of mild steel. I was pretty amazed at the nearly total lack of recoil (as compared to my 180 gn lead projectiles) that the zinc boolits had and yet that they still hit so hard. But, overall, I am pleased thus far. As far as making them, getting rid of the slag is the biggest bummer. As I am still casting with Lee molds, I am opting to leave the spru open and then just melt / grind the slag after the fact. It works, but it's tedious. Anyhow, zinc + rifle = success.

[texassako]

I am opting to leave the spru open and then just melt / grind the slag after the fact. It works, but it's tedious. Anyhow, zinc + rifle = success.

I wonder if you could set up a split sprue plate on top of the mold to have a funnel into the cavities like the antique round ball and conical molds to keep each one sperate. Set up a jig in a cheap harbor freight mini chop saw to trim the excess sprue at a repeatable length.

[Animal]

Man, I've just been tossing the Zinc into my scrap bucket along with the steel clips. Hmmm, I really need to see if this is worth doing for my AK (yes, I know. Rusky ammo is cheaper but... I don't know the guy that made it! lol) I suppose if I use a 160gr mold, I might have 122ish grains of Zinc. Then, if I can beagle it to a .313... I just might have a good round that won't make a mess in the gas tube, give good cycling and use lighter charges of a fast powder... PERFECT! Thanks for the ideas folks, especially to the OP.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

A rather stimulating, shall we say discussion here.

What I would like to see is a statistically valid sampling.

Perhaps one of you zinc (sic) proponents would be willing to cast a hundred bullets each out of the zinc and a hundred out of zinc free alloy and load them all up. Testing them side, at a 100yd target and comparing group size for ten 10-shot groups of each, shot back to back would give us answers VS verbiage. I'm not trying them in any of my BR rifles, but I have a couple tons of 97% lead, 3% antimony alloy to tide me over.

just thinking...

[B.C.Jay]

I would think dedicating a mold to zinc and using a sprueplate with smaller holes would help in cutting them. The mold is going to be super hot anyway and it may not need to be filled as fast.

[Janoosh]

Thanks Silvrbllt..
First- Did you load to actual boolit weight or stated mold weight?
Second- Did you load as a jaxketed bullet shy of the lands??
Last, but not least,...I see zinc/ kirksite , not as a replacement for lead, but as an enhancement of available projectiles, as are PC, PP, etc.
Thanks

[Janoosh]

I do not believe zinc to be a replacement for lead, but as an alloy that has it's own uses. I shoot my milsurps (plink) at a 1×2 piece of dozer blade at 100 yds. Right now I use 32 cal pistol boolits in my 30/31cal milsurps. The zinc/kirksite would be an affordable alternate for my shooting. Would I use the zinc in my trap door or flinter..naawww....they have their own alloy. Would I use zinc in my FR 7 or K11..for sure..

[HollowPoint]

I know that casting lead bullets is based just as much on tradition than it is on any kind of money savings, but I hate to see new members have their dreams or ideas krapped on by well meaning older members. I really, really hate that.

I think it's the fact that bullet casting is based on tradition that some folks here find it hard to adopt any new improvements that might come along from time to time.

Some times I wonder what cleaver innovations have been stifled by the "Nay-Sayers" and the self-appointed "Know-It-All's" on this and other forums. It's a damn shame.

I rarely post any of my ideas any more; just for this very reason. I just go ahead and do it. If it works out, good; if not, that's good too. It gives me hands-on experience. This is something that many "Nay-Sayers" generally don't have. To much of the time their opinions are based on someone else's failures and so it's automatically assumed that such and such an idea won't work.

I particularly love it when I get something to work that the "Know-It-All's" said would never work. It puts a big smile on my face. Some cases in point: Synthetic Bullet Tips for cast bullets, Boat Tailed Gas-Checks for cast bullets and 3D printed jackets for cast lead bullets.

There's alot to learn and play around with within this Proverbial Box that makes up the Lead Bullet Casting hobby or way of life. There's enough to keep a guy busy the rest of his life but, there's so much more when we think outside this Proverbial Box. We'll never know how much more if we keep on shooting down new attempts at old ideas. The next guy to try it may very well be the one who gets it to work.

I hope the OP succeeds beyond his wildest dreams.

HollowPoint

[MrWolf]

+1 on HollowPoint's sentiment :goodpost:

[62chevy]

+1 on HollowPoint's sentiment :goodpost:


Agreed !!! Great Post.

[Slvrbllt40]

Thanks Silvrbllt..
First- Did you load to actual boolit weight or stated mold weight?
Second- Did you load as a jaxketed bullet shy of the lands??
Last, but not least,...I see zinc/ kirksite , not as a replacement for lead, but as an enhancement of available projectiles, as are PC, PP, etc.
Thanks

I loaded based on actual boolit weight, in grains. My load sheets were able to provide for rounds that were light enough. With the new "green" lead free rounds that are becoming mandatory in California, load data, especially for 30 cal rounds it seems, on light weight bullets seems to be pretty readily available. The good thing is that "overloading" doesn't seem to be real big issue as the bullet requires less pressure to move it and can take more pressure without fragmentation issues. What is very funny about the "green" lead free rounds is that 5 years ago these were considered "armor compromising" and in 9mm form were even specifically labeled "cop killers". Now, you might have to use them is you want to hunt.

[MGySgt]

You still have to be careful as your volume inside the case may be less with the zinc versus the Green bullet.

More of the bullet protruding into the case for proper overall length.

[Janoosh]

Slvrbllt40....thank you
+1 Hollowpoint....great post

[mrbill2]

What dia. do you size your bullets when cast from zinc. I size to .310 for lead. Should I size smaller for zinc?

[Slvrbllt40]

I don't recall the spec off the top of my head but I use the same part # Lee molds for my lead and zinc boolits. But, my rifle is also a Savage Enfield from 1939, so it's rather used. I let the boolits air cool after casting to reduce shrinkage as well. I don't feel entirely comfortable giving people advice on how make their zinc boolits, as this is still an experiment for me and I'd hate to give someone wrong or even dangerous advice. When I get back to my paperwork, I'll get the diameter that I used for my boolits for ya though. Thanks Mr. Bill for the support.

[a.squibload]

Wow, page 5 alone had three technical improvements/suggestions.
Yep zinc casting has been around, several old threads about it, hope we don't lose
a lot of info from deletions.

Got me thinkin' about my Hoch 44WFN mold that casts at 350 grains (lead).
Bit too heavy for my twist, have noticed slight wobble (keyholing) at longer range.
Zinc would lighten it up. If it loses 50 grains it would still be a slammer.
If the diameter shrinks when cooling I could PC it.

Too bad I turned in a bucket of zinc WWs for scrap!

Hypothetical question: how many pennies per boolit?
Not that I would do that...

[earthling121757]

About 5 1/2...

[dtknowles]

Wow, page 5 alone had three technical improvements/suggestions.
Yep zinc casting has been around, several old threads about it, hope we don't lose
a lot of info from deletions.

Got me thinkin' about my Hoch 44WFN mold that casts at 350 grains (lead).
Bit too heavy for my twist, have noticed slight wobble (keyholing) at longer range.
Zinc would lighten it up. If it loses 50 grains it would still be a slammer.
If the diameter shrinks when cooling I could PC it.

Too bad I turned in a bucket of zinc WWs for scrap!

Hypothetical question: how many pennies per boolit?
Not that I would do that...

Bullet stability is based on bullet length not weight so zinc probably will not help you with that problem.

Tim

[MGnoob]

I've used the search feature and google and haven't turned up useful info on casting zinc projectiles. I started looking into it after reading this thread....i wanna copper plate them, just to do it.
Unfortunately some members are just going to take there toys and go home. And not to be rude or start a fight but i have to just assume that certain member must not know what there talking about or not be very confident in there position ...... now that i have no info to go on ..... or maybe they might be able to take other people's bad attitude/negativity and not hurt the rest of the open-minded community.

anyway can anyone provide a link for info
i have my old 10lb? leak-o-matic i wouldn't mind putting zinc in.
i will have my manual cast .223 mold when my auto-cast .223 molds arrive.

I like the idea of them being undersized, i'll plate them to siz and not even run them through the sizer.
I also like the hardness
with lead bans or price increase a real possibility i would be nice to have options.

i have a million questions/thoughts alot of it would take so much time to research. i'd rather follow in someone else's foot step when possible.
and example would be that i know zinc floats on lead so the pot would have to be cleaned of all lead but does dirt,steel,ect float on zinc.
those are this you either have to learn through experience or without "someones" experience research the properties of these material to discover something you could have learned here in 3 sec on cast boolits.

[Old Caster]

Number one is don't pay any attention in life when someone tries to ridicule you. Go your own way and don't worry about them even if status quo sticks with them when fortunately they didn't here.

I wondered if there might be a lot of room for a zinc bullet in the bigger guns like 45/70 where they are quite heavy to begin with and could use more velocity. Also if it comes to the point that we are not allowed to use or there is no lead to be had for shooting, Aluminum or Zinc bullets with copper or some other alloy applied by electrolysis could be as good as a jacketed bullet. If this happens likely different powders with different burning rates and characteristics would become available also.

No telling what will happen in the future since I easily remember when there were no televisions and all radios had tubes instead of transistors so it wasn't that long ago being in only one lifetime.

[MGnoob]

it's not that bullets or lead will be directly ban....just things like going from lead ww to zinc and all the nonsense regulations will drive up prices and availability.
And as we all know bans don't work and if it where to be an outright ban the sad thing is lead would probably get cheaper.......ohh the irony!

[FLHTC]

I'll bet Zinc would work great in a Beagled 22 Bator mold. I might have to get me some and dedicate a bottom pour pot to just Zinc. I love fresh ideas and hate "Know it Alls". :cbpour:

[NavyVet1959]

Roto had some data published for bismuth but it was deleted as the results were poor. I wonder about the hunting application, fast lite boolits? I assume large bore & fast to get energy up? Does a 20 gr 223 make any sense?
A 55gr lead bullet would weigh about 34.6gr in zinc.

That's using the densities that I got for pure lead and zinc on their Wiki pages and going with solid lead and zinc instead of molten. If you used the molten densities and factored in the differences in shrinkage of lead vs zinc or a different alloy of lead, you might end up with different results.

[olafhardt]

Zinc is very easy to copper plate. You don't even need a source of electricity. Get some copper sulfate (many feed and garden stores have it). Mix up a good strong solution of it, just use plenty to make it strong. Get your boolits really clean use detergent and water, solvent [charcoal lighter, gasoline, acetone, what ever. Rinse in purified water. Stand the boolits up on there bases in a plastic, glass, or other non metal chemical resistant container. Cover them or partially cover them with the copper sulfate solution and just let them sit.
I have never done this with boolits but I have done it with iron nails and aluminum scraps. A metal more reactive than copper is required . which rules out lead. I don't expect this to add very much to the diameter as the copper replaces the top layer of zinc. I don't know how well the copper will stick. True electroplating would add to the diameter. I also don't know what you would accomplish, maybe some corrosion resistance. My ignorance is boundless.

[MGnoob]

I thought the zinc projectile drop from a PB mold undersized....that was the benefit i saw.
what i thought it would accomplish was adding to the dia.

[MGnoob]

I think we were all talking about planing zinc projectiles with copper not plating lead with zinc.....

[bbqncigars]

I would think that the zinc boolits would exhibit the same characteristics of shooting any relatively light projectile. In other words they'd shed velocity faster than the same volume of lead alloy. I'd be tempted to try the zinc version of the .512" 850gr Rockrat if I didn't have more work to do on the regular loads.

[Magana559]

Good job guys! I have lots of zinc in ingots just in case we figure something out. If I had a steel mold I wouldn't hesitate on trying this but, I only own aluminum.

[leadman]

I have been collecting zinc WW but get very little as I mostly use isotope lead. My friend in Texas is a Renactor and he and his guys buy old carburators and melt them down for their cannon.
I'll try to scan the article in the old Handloader's Digest when I find it again. If someone is going to try casting soon with zinc can you try the aspirin tablets ground up for a flux? This is what the author of the HD article used. He was loading this zinc bullets in large bore guns and IIRC they shot fine.

As far as a coating on the zinc bullets I think the Hi-Tek coating would work very well and be very easy to apply. this would protect the zinc bullet from corrosion and provide a lubricant for those that think it might be needed. Multiple coats can be applied to increase the bullet diameter if needed. The Red Copper has alot of solids in it and is very good for building up the diameter.

So are we going to pick a name for these zinc bullets? zoolits? zinclits?

[gwpercle]

If / when lead is outlawed and declared Hazardous ( don't try to sell your house if it has vinyl-asbestos floor tile, asbestos siding or has ever been painted with lead based paint) I wonder if the mould makers will cut thier moulds to drop proper sized zinc boolits....might be something to look into! I don't see the lead hazard thing going away any time soon.
Gary

[MGySgt]

The mould makers that use boring bars vice cherries will be able to accommodate the larger size. As a matter of fact if you know the shrinkage you could go to Mountain Moulds right now and have a mould made to your specs.

[NavyVet1959]

Would be interesting for you guys with some zinc to try dipping a lead boolit in melted zinc. The time in the zinc to soften or melt lead is relatively long. Like galvanized steel, zinc jacketed boolits. No GC, no lube, strong jacket? Who knows.

I would not be surprised to see someone getting a hot dipped zinc coating on a lead bullet by doing it this way. If you really look at it, it's not that different than how they repeatedly dip a wax candle in molten wax to build up its diameter. It's going to take a certain amount of time for enough heat to be transferred into the lead for the lead to melt and it's entirely possible that a quick dip might be able to be accomplished without the lead starting to melt. Getting an even or consistent coating might be problematic though. And then there is the question of whether we would actually *want* our potential range scrap lead supply to have zinc contaminants in it.

[NavyVet1959]

The mould makers that use boring bars vice cherries will be able to accommodate the larger size. As a matter of fact if you know the shrinkage you could go to Mountain Moulds right now and have a mould made to your specs.

I started a lengthy reply to this one and then ended up losing it when I accidentally closed this tab in my browser instead of another one that I had intended to close.

To keep from doing that again, I created a web page concerning the calculations as I see them along with an example of a simple case of a wad cutter bullet without any lube grooves.

https://sites.google.com/site/navyvet1959/Hobbies/bullet-casting/lead-vs-zinc



Overview

For the casting of bullets, the vast majority of casters use lead. Unfortunately, due to onerous government regulations, the readily available supply of lead for bullet casters (i.e. car tire balancing lead "wheelweights") is starting to get have a lower percentage of lead and a higher percentage of zinc and steel. There's not much we can do with steel, but there has been some discussion on the various bullet casting forums with respect to whether we can cast zinc bullets.

For the most part, zinc mixed with lead has caused problems for many people attempting to cast lead bullets. As such, casters use various means to minimize the chance their alloy will be contaminated with zinc. They might separate the lead from zinc and steel wheelweights before smelting or the might run their smelting pot at a low enough temperature that the lead will be molten whereas the zinc will still be solid and thus be able to skim the zinc wheelweights out of the pot with the metal clips from the lead wheelweights.

Many people wonder though whether it is possible to just cast straight zinc bullets since that would alleviate the problem of the two metals mixing in the casting alloy. There is nothing inherent about zinc that would preclude the casting of precision parts -- as evidenced by it's use in carburetors, DVD player drive brackets, electronic connectors, and such. Companies that do zinc casting quote tolerances of 0.001", so it would appear that zinc might be feasible for bullet casting.

One concern though with respect to casting bullets out of zinc for the home reloader is whether the shrinkage of zinc is different enough from lead that using existing lead bullet molds would result in an unacceptably undersized zinc bullet. Another concern is whether there will be unacceptable ballistic changes with respect to the lesser density of zinc as compared to lead. Given the same bullet physical size, the zinc bullet is going to have a lower sectional density than its lead counterpart, thus reducing penetration if the velocity remains the same. Since the zinc bullet will weight less though, velocity is going to increase, but is that enough to offset the decrease sectional density? Personally, I don't believe that zinc is a replacement for lead for all uses, but it might work well enough for certain situations (e.g. shots made at relatively close range). For the same weight an diameter, a zinc bullet will have a greater length than the equivalent lead bullet. Since I don't have the facilities to do ballistic gelatin testing, I will leave this for others to discuss and focus on the narrow issue of what we might expect if we attempted to cast zinc bullets in our current lead bullet molds.

Assumptions

For the most part, this should be a simple volume calculation, but it gets a bit trickier since bullets are not simple geometric shapes (e.g. spheres, cylinders, cones, etc). Combining that with the fact that there are numerous different bullet profiles even within a single caliber and you can see how calculating this might be troublesome. So, to make this easier and to produce what I believe would be a worst case scenario, I'm going to assume that the "bullet" is a simple cylinder, that it has no lube grooves, and that it is perfectly flat on both the top and bottom. I am also going to assume that the height of the cast bullet does not change between lead and zinc, thus all the shrinkage is in the diameter. In the real world, shrinkage would be both in diameter and height of the cylinder and as such, the diameter would not decrease as much as indicated in the following calculations.

For my calculations that follow, I'm going to use 0.402" as the diameter (for no other reason than the fact that I've been casting 10mm bullets lately) and 175 gr for the bullet weight since that is also the weight in lead of the bullets that I've been casting lately. The theoretical mold that I'm using in the following calculations is not the same as this idealized cylindrical bullet, but I figured I might as well use that as base for my example calculations. If you don't like it, feel free to plug in the values for your own projectile shape.


Constants

1 lb = 0.45359237 kg
1 lb = 453.59237 g
1 lb = 7000 gr
1 g ≈ 15.432358352941430650608166094152 gr

1 in = 2.54 cm
=> 1 cu-in = 2.54 * 2.54 * 2.54 cu-cm = 16.387064 cu-cm

Lead (density at room temperature) = 11.34 g/cu-cm
Lead (density at melting point) = 10.66 g/cu-cm

Zinc (density at room temperature) = 7.14 g/cu-cm
Zinc (density at melting point) = 6.57 g/cu-cm

To convert from g/cu-cm to gr/cu-in:


1 g
lb
2.54 * 2.54 * 2.54 cu-cm

7000 gr


cu-cm
453.59237 g
1 cu-in
lb



or multiply by 252.8910440005858123230776567075 gr·cu-cm / g·cu-in

Let's call it 252.9 gr·cu-cm / g·cu-in for calculation purposes.

So, now that we have the conversion factor, let's change those densities to units that we more commonly use in the US.

Lead (density at room temperature) = 11.34 g/cu-cm = 2867.78 gr/cu-in
Lead (density at melting point) = 10.66 g/cu-cm = 2695.82 gr/cu-in

Zinc (density at room temperature) = 7.14 g/cu-cm = 1805.64 gr/cu-in
Zinc (density at melting point) = 6.57 g/cu-cm = 1661.49 gr/cu-in

Formulas

volume of cylinder = pi * radius2 * height
=> radius2 = volume / (pi * height)
=> radius = sqrt( volume / (pi * height) )
=> diameter = 2 * sqrt( volume / (pi * height) )

density = weight / volume
=> volume = weight / density

Thus,
weight / density = pi * radius2 * height
=> weight = pi * radius2 * height * density
=> height = weight / (pi * radius2 * density)
=> radius2 = weight / (pi * height * density)
=> radius = sqrt( weight / (pi * height * density) )
=> diameter = 2 * sqrt( weight / (pi * height * density) )


Calculation

We fill up the molds when the metal is at it's melting point and shoot the bullets when they are basically at room temperature. As such, we should be able to calculate the change in size rather easily as long as we are simplifying it to a normal geometric shape like a cylinder.

First, we need to calculate the height of the cylinder. We know that the mold casts a bullet of 0.401" diameter and the bullet weighs 175 gr, so we need to calculate the volume of the mold. Knowing the volume, we can then calculate the height of the bullet.

height = weight / (pi * radius2 * density)
=> height = 175 / (pi * 0.2005 * 0.2005 * 2867.78)
=> height = 175 / 362.18 = 0.483185 in

So, now let's work backwards to calculate what the diameter of the bullet mold must have been in order to get a 0.401" diameter bullet.

diameter = 2 * sqrt( volume / (pi * height) )
diameter = 2 * sqrt( weight / (pi * density * height) )
diameter = 2 * sqrt( 175 / (pi * 2695.82 * 0.483185) ) = 2 * 0.2067959
diameter = 0.413591797 in

To calculate the volume of the mold,
volume = pi * radius2 * height
volume = pi * (0.413591797 / 2)2 * 0.483185 = 0.0649153133369438612370262109488 cu-in

Now let's start on the zinc calculations. We know the following:


the mold that has a volume of 0.06491531 cu-in
the molten zinc has a density of 1661.49 gr/cu-in
the height of the mold is 0.483185 in.


As such, the weight of zinc that we can put in the mold would be:
weight = volume * density

=> weight = 0.06491531 * 1661.49 = 107.856 gr

So, now let's see what the diameter of the zinc might be after it cools to room temperature. For this, we need to use the density of zinc at room temperature (1805.64 gr/cu-in).
diameter = 2 * sqrt( weight / (pi * height * density) )
diameter = 2 * sqrt( 107.856 / (pi * 0.483185 * 1805.64) )
diameter = 2 * sqrt( 107.856 / (pi * 872.4581634) )
diameter = 2 * sqrt( 107.856 / 2740.9081567 )
diameter = 2 * sqrt( 0.0393505 )
diameter = 2 * 0.198369634 in
diameter = 0.396739 in

So, it seems like it would produce a bullet a bit small, given the assumptions that I made for a worst case scenario. It would be interesting to see what this might produce with a more realistic bullet profile model, but as they say, "that is left as an exercise to the reader". Hopefully I'm provided enough information here that those interested could use it for calculating their own favorite bullet profile.

[NavyVet1959]

Zinc is not a contaminate, safer than lead. Used very much in dietary supplements and resists corrosion.

From the standpoint of someone wanting to cast lead bullets though, anything that negatively affects the castability of the alloy or even the end results of the casting using the user's normal methods of casting would technically be considered a "contaminant". Just like ethanol is a contaminant in gasoline for those of us who have vehicles that either do not like ethanol or have other issues with the fuel system that prohibit us from using it in the vehicles. The facts that the majority of the vehicles out there can tolerate the contaminant and that it was deliberately added to the fuel does not make it any less of a contaminant for us. A muzzle loader shooter might consider antimony to be a contaminant in his alloy since it increases the hardness of the alloy even though most of us would not.

[ohland]

Harvey Protex bore mold that takes the zinc washers but have been unable to locate any. Do you know of a source?

But of course! Thanks to the power of capitalism, you can get newly made Swage-It Zinc Bases http://www.hawkbullets.com/swage-it.htm
Scroll down to almost the bottom. Enjoy!

Quantity
Caliber
Price


1000
30
$20.00


1000
9MM/38/357
$22.00


1000
44
$24.00


1000
45
$24.00

[ohland]

Roto had some data published for bismuth but it was deleted as the results were poor.

Rotometal put the file Handload Data Report 308 - Final.pdf on Google:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0iJt6v2vYEcYXY5Q2cxYVhrNVU/edit?pli=1

Rotometal sez:
Bismuth
Melting Point - 520F
Boiling Point - 2642F
Weight Lb/in3 - 0.3541

Tin
Melting Point: 450 F
Boiling Point: 4100 F
Weight Lb/in3: 0.2633

Zinc
Melting Point: 787.1 F
Boiling Point: 1665 F
Weight Lb/in3: 0.258

[bbqncigars]

Thanks for posting that ohland. I have concerns over casting zinc in aluminum moulds. I would be very interested in hearing what the mould makers say about this. I don't have many worries about zinc in my ferrous moulds, but the aluminum and brass ones would be worrisome.

[Whiterabbit]

Never tried it. Bought iron moulds for the express purpose of casting zinc. Never had an issue with size. Only the challenges of fillout and manufacturing load data.

The muzzleflash is really impressive.

[bbqncigars]

I welcome any "off the wall" projectile data. I made two low velocity .44 caliber 'napalm rounds' back in the early seventies just to see if it was possible. They worked, but were very labor intensive to make. I trashed all of my notes for that, as the probability for premature flambe was very high. That said, I would share any data that didn't involve fire extinguishers or local bomb disposal squads. I would not get in a royal snit and call the entire forum swine. I barbecue swine, I am not one and I do not vote for them.

[soless]

Wow. I'm curious to see where this Zinc rabbit hole will take us.

[GARD72977]

I have been wanting to try Zinc round balls for muzzleloading. The undersize ball can be made up for by thicker patching. The idea is for woods shooting where the lead is nor recoverable. The lighter ball may be fun for shorter distances.

[Whiterabbit]

i've been playing with brass ball bearings for that application. Even that smaller difference in weight change the game completely for accuracy. It's much harder to find a load that shoots well. You try zinc and find the secret sauce, you let me know.

[Janoosh]

Ok...time to play "Devil's Advocate"....
First let me say I'm in agreement with the experimentation with zinc boolits.
1- if zinc is self lubricating, is it necessary to lube the zinc-lets.?
2- bore fouling.?? Treatment.??
3- Sherardization....or zinc plating, or a form of galvinization..
This last idea was put forth and championed by a Mr Harvey ( apologies. .as I have forgotten his first name), of Lakeville Arms. He is the individual that made the boolit molds with the zinc washers.

[giz189]

Guess I'll never get it either, then.

There was a time here in which we WELCOMED people trying new things and learning things for themselves and experimenting and gleaning some knowledge from those endeavors.

I'm so glad the recent influx of shiny new casters are here to save us from ourselves with their incredible year or two of knowledge--primarily gained here and from other members who dared expose themselves to ridicule by daring to wander off the accepted and beaten path.

A lot of you folks are flat out of line.

For one, this is not how we typically greet a new member making their first post. That's a big one.

Two, unless you live under a rock, lead is getting harder to get and more and more regulated. If you want to keep shooting, you might want to start re-thinking about alternative alloys.

And three, the friggin' "tone" of some of the comments here from relatively new members who seem to think that their way is either the only way or the best way is starting to get old.

Can't believe how much this place has changed in just the past few years.

SMH.

:coffee:. +1 Recluse.

[Jaymo]

Confucious say man who says it can't be done shouldn't interrupt the man who is doing it.

That's worth of being a sigline.

BTW I've been interested in zinc casting for quite a few years.
Mostly, I've cast ingots and turned them into pulleys on my lathe.

IIRC, the Aguila IQ ammo used zinc boolits.
I never had any issues with them.
I'm thinking about buying some molds just for casting zinc boolits.
I could cast zinc boolits in a 55 grain spitzer mold and shoot them in my Daewoo DR200.
Being able to shoot cheap, cast boots in rifles, especially gas operated, would be great.
Zamak and ZA alloys have better bearing properties (especially unlubed) than cuprous bronze bearing alloys.
This means no lube needed.

I may even make greensand molds to cast zinc rods.
Then I can turn/part zinc boolits to any shape/size/profile I want.
Not fast, but I can make them my way and not be dependent on mold makers.

Now, I just need lots of info on casting zinc boolits.

[mikeym1a]

This is an interesting thread. I, too, was considering casting in zinc, as I have accumulated 30 or so lbs over the past couple years. I would be doing it for rifles. Except, I have become quite ill, and doubt I'll have the time to do the experimentation necessary. As I understand it, Zinc is both lighter and harder than lead. I do know that 'scraper' rounds were produced during the Civil War to help clean fouling from the bore, 1 out of 7 rounds, if memory serves correctly. However, it is far softer than steel, making 'self-lubricating' in the different metal context. Being lighter, they should have a higher muzzle velocity, and perhaps a shorter effective range, due to the same lightness. If it can be made to work reliably, it is another source of casting material, and not one considered a contaminate. Just my opinion on the matter. Continue on, WhiteRabbit!

[nylocmik]

Save all my zinc ww's for fishing sinkers.

[srd]

I have been playing a little with Zamac 3 which is Zinc..Aluminum and copper with a few other minorities thrown in. Melting temp seems to be around 745 and at 780 it fills out the mold better. i used a Lee 50 caliber REAL black powder mold..yes its aluminum. i only made 6 of them to play with last night. They ended up weighing 180 grains and are .429 diameter. Loaded them up in 44 Mag cases with some AA9 and are ready for testing.
I used a propane turkey burner base with a cast iron pan for the melt. I used a thermometer thats attached to my PID controller to track the temps. After the Zamac 3 that I was not going to use right now had cooled off in the pan..I turned it upside down and the left over zinc fell out . You have to either work quickly with the mold and sprue plate or do not use the sprue plate at all and just be careful to just fill the mold to the top. The excess on the base of the boolit i ground or filed off. Do not preheat your mold...waste of time..does not help at all. If i can figure out how to post pictures and you are interested I will post them.
The reason I am using Zamac 3 is a friend told me he has 2000 pounds of scrap if I am interested in playing with it. Yes I said 2000 pounds ! You bet I am. Do not worry ..I have my own private shooting range for the members that are concerned over their areas being contaminated with my range scrap.

[BAGTIC]

It won't cast enough undersize to leave enough room for the paper.

[BAGTIC]

Zionc is no good for fishing sinkers. It is too light. It floats.

[BAGTIC]

Zinc castings weigh about 65% as much as lead. Using the same bullet mould the bullets will weigh about 65% as much as a lead bullet. BC is directly proportional to sectional desnsity therefore the BC of a zinc bullet will only be about 65% that of a similar lead bullet. A zink bullet will not carry as far as a denser bullet.

Zinc bullets do not expand at normal velocities. Zinc shooters often observe that recovered bullets look good enough to shoot again.

Zinc will not damage your bore. It it woud I doubt that Army and Navy Ordnance departments would have been using them for testing artillery for about a hundred years.

Zinc is light weight and can be loaderd to very high velocities and energy level at the muzzle and short range. These makes them well suited to handguns that are normally used at close range Should produce large wound cavities while reducing overpenetration especially in smaller (human sized?) targets. Would also reduce danger of stray shots such as misses in combat situations, guns fired at high elevation (miss that squirrel in the tree?).

Zinc will not replace lead for all things but it does have its uses and its advantages.

[BAGTIC]

If one applies a 3D printed jacket it is no longer a cast bullet.

I doubt that 3D printers can produce jackets as cheaply as a punch press. For prototypes and limited production items they may be competitive. For example 'published on demand' one off printed paper books have been available for decades but they can not come anywhere close to competing with a printing machine in cost per volume.

[Harter66]

I'm interested.

I have been playing a little with Zamac 3 which is Zinc..Aluminum and copper with a few other minorities thrown in. Melting temp seems to be around 745 and at 780 it fills out the mold better. i used a Lee 50 caliber REAL black powder mold..yes its aluminum. i only made 6 of them to play with last night. They ended up weighing 180 grains and are .429 diameter. Loaded them up in 44 Mag cases with some AA9 and are ready for testing.
I used a propane turkey burner base with a cast iron pan for the melt. I used a thermometer thats attached to my PID controller to track the temps. After the Zamac 3 that I was not going to use right now had cooled off in the pan..I turned it upside down and the left over zinc fell out . You have to either work quickly with the mold and sprue plate or do not use the sprue plate at all and just be careful to just fill the mold to the top. The excess on the base of the boolit i ground or filed off. Do not preheat your mold...waste of time..does not help at all. If i can figure out how to post pictures and you are interested I will post them.
The reason I am using Zamac 3 is a friend told me he has 2000 pounds of scrap if I am interested in playing with it. Yes I said 2000 pounds ! You bet I am. Do not worry ..I have my own private shooting range for the members that are concerned over their areas being contaminated with my range scrap.

The last zinc thread I saw was having issues w/ piping through the boolit as opposed to fill out.

[Slvrbllt40]

Hello everyone. Thought I might give a little update for those who are interested. The zinc on the bolt action stuff is still working well. Mainly, I'm using them as "bore cleaning" rounds at the end of the day after I shoot my lead. Reason being, a zinc boolit is time consuming to make compared to lead. I've taken to casting them with the sprue plate open, them clamping the boolit nose first in my drill press and using a coarse file to remove the excess slag. Takes about 5 minutes per boolit after I cast it. So I just don't make that many as compared to the lead stuff.

Semi auto stuff: Failure to eject and stovepipe jams are just about par for the course. I'm still experimenting with powders and shotshell stuff is showing promise. I was using Winchester AutoComp, but the boolits are so light and move down the barrel so easily that unburnt powder was evident after each shot. Titewad is at least ejecting some of the casings. I just need to go a little heavier on the load and I think I'll be in business. So far, no barrel issues whatsoever. I've put about 50 zinc rounds through my 92f and about 100 down the bore of my Enfield. They are both fine. Enfield loves the stuff. Huge muzzle flash and ballistic crack. Very little recoil. Like a gigantic .22 haha.

Sizing: Running them through a sizer isn't something I recommend. Tried it, boolit got stuck. Luckily, almost all of them come out to spec. The FEW that don't, I use my file and drill press to turn them down a little. Also, drilling a little dimple on the backside of my .38 boolits increased accuracy a lot and, according to the 1/4 steel I was shooting at, increased speed DRAMATICALLY. But, I suppose that's to be expected.

[mozeppa]

YES! do as the fuhrer and the S-S say....give up this foolishness and stop being stupid ....take THEIR word for everything.
NEVER EVER attempt to learn anything on your own.... because you are a square peg.

(is anyone getting the sarcasm yet.)

if i was a good little lemming i would be shaking my boolits in a cool whip bowl before powder coating.
or not powder coating at all.

heck.... if i was the truest form of lemming i'd still be buying cartridges to shoot...because
any fool knows that if you try to make your own....you'l blow yourself up...now stop learning stuff on your own and get in line..

Seig Heil

[goofyoldfart]

slvrbllt40--I find this topic to be of great interest and am following it with glee. years ago I tried paper patching with heavy teflon tape. a 30-06 180gr. boolit at 2600 fps. they said it couldn't be done and would lead the bore. HHmmmm, I guess the rifle never got the word (didn't lead and was slick as snot) and the target failed to hear the message too. I was getting sub 1moa. did kick like hell though;-). Never say never my friend. my experience was over 40 years ago--still works for me and I'm 70. God Bless to all and theirs.
Goofy aka Godfrey:wink:

[62chevy]

slvrbllt40--I find this topic to be of great interest and am following it with glee. years ago I tried paper patching with heavy teflon tape. a 30-06 180gr. boolit at 2600 fps. they said it couldn't be done and would lead the bore. HHmmmm, I guess the rifle never got the word (didn't lead and was slick as snot) and the target failed to hear the message too. I was getting sub 1moa. did kick like hell though;-). Never say never my friend. my experience was over 40 years ago--still works for me and I'm 70. God Bless to all and theirs.
Goofy aka Godfrey:wink:


I would love to see one of your Teflon wrapped boolits. I know someone on here started testing Teflon but never posted the results. Very interested in this method of Patching a boolit.

[rsrocket1]

Good for you Slvrbllt40,
As for Loading for 9mm, realize that with a bullet only 62% the weight of lead, a 124g mold will produce only a 76 grain bullet. As a shotgun loader who regularly loads 3/4 oz 12 gauge rather than 1-1/8 oz loads, pressure (or lack of) is the enemy I am constantly fighting. I never have to worry about too high a pressure load, I am always trying to get the most pressure out of a load with the combination of components I have. When you have too low a peak pressure, you will get lots of unburned powder, smokey shots and inconsistent velocities.

An autoloading pistol operates on the principle of blowback or delayed blowback and that is dependent on the momentum (mass x velocity) of the exiting bullet. With your 62% weight bullet, you will need 60% more velocity out of that zinc bullet to get the same momentum to operate the action:
124g bullet @ 1000 fps = 124 pf <- power factor (a unit of momentum related to recoil)
76g bullet @ 1631 fps = 124 pf

You might want to try loading some of the 38 caliber zinc bullets in 9mm. The 92f's usually have bigger than average 9mm bores so you might not even need to size them to get them to fit. Of course, slugging your barrel is always a good idea. A 158g bullet mold should produce a zinc bullet @ 92g which is on the low end of usable 9mm loads. You could work up loads with that to see if you can find one that operates the action.

Getting 1600 fps out of the little 9mm case is going to be tough. Titewad is far too fast and will go over pressure before you get enough velocity. 6 grains of Unique/Universal will get you that speed, but takes up way too much room in your case. You can't get that much powder in a 9mm case. You might be able to fit it in if you seated the bullet out to 1.20" COL, but that's pretty long and you might not get them into your magazine. You might have a little better luck with Power Pistol or BE-86.

Sizing
Have you tried lubricating the zinc bullets before you run them through the sizer? If it's a Lee push through sizer it might be easier to pre lube the bullets or even powder coat them if you are into that method . Unfortunately Zinc is on the same negative side of the triboelectric chart as polyester and the powder coat paint and lead is on the positive side so dry tumble coating won't work as well. Powder coated lead bullets glide through the sizing die.

Nice to see progress. Keep posting your results. There are more of us who are interested than you think.

[Tatume]

Idk. I find it interesting and im looking forward to hearing his results if he decides to load them up.
Everyone should relax a little. Knowledge expands horizons

Not only do I find it interesting, but I was looking specifically for information on casting zinc when I found this thread. I just painted my boat bottom and replaced all the zinc anodes, to the tune of about $150. I know where to get scrap zinc, and already have quite a bit. See where this is going?

Since most of my boat zincs are not in the flow of water around the hull, and the zincs get rough as they erode anyway, I think I'll use sand molds, or maybe wood. I only need one of each per year, and I can make up the molds in the winter, cast the anodes, throw out the molds, and start over again next year.

Take care, Tom

[Buck Neck It]

Zinc boat anodes cost about $5 a pound at the local shipyard.

[Buck Neck It]

Whoops! Sorry for the thread drift. Lead fishing weights also cost about $5 at the local hardware store. Back to cast zinc bullets.

[DLCTEX]

The naysayers here remind me of the ones who used to claim authoritatively that just a small amount of zinc in your alloy would contaminate your casting pot and moulds, ruining them. The sky is falling!

[62chevy]

The naysayers here remind me of the ones who used to claim authoritatively that just a small amount of zinc in your alloy would contaminate your casting pot and moulds, ruining them. The sky is falling!

I have read those comments and wondered how trace amounts can ruin anything. I've also read ones that say to toss out 50 pounds of lead because it has some zinc in it. I say mix it with one pound at a time with good lead and go shooting.

[Whiterabbit]

Zinc boat anodes cost about $5 a pound at the local shipyard.

That's CRAZY. You can get zinc at your local bank for $1.82 a pound. Contaminated with copper, which matters not-at-all.

[groovy mike]

Zinc works just fine for cannon balls. I cast lead bullets and zinc cannon balls. So nice to actually have a use for all those zinc wheel weights now! Now if I can just find a use for the iron wheel weights....

[centershot]

Zinc works just fine for cannon balls. I cast lead bullets and zinc cannon balls. So nice to actually have a use for all those zinc wheel weights now! Now if I can just find a use for the iron wheel weights....

Well, if nothing else, they might make good scatter shot loads in the cannon......

[Silver Hand]

I guess my OCD will have to drive me to be "that guy". The past tense verb for making bullets out of lead (or in this case zinc), is "cast", as in "you cast a bunch of bullets out of zinc a couple of days ago." No such word as "casted".

Sorry, had to say it... Tell me other than a spelling Bee, what else can you do MR. Awesome? Leave people alone, not everyone is as perfect as you are! Get it?
Silver Hand

[technojock]

I would love to see one of your Teflon wrapped boolits. I know someone on here started testing Teflon but never posted the results. Very interested in this method of Patching a boolit.

I started doing that about 7 or 8 years ago with my .45-70 Handirifle. When I bought it, I had dies and brass but no bullets the right size so I patched up some .451 230g RN bullets that I cast for my M1911. I loaded them over 9g of Unique and shot them at 50 yards when I took my grandsons out to shoot their .22's... Accuracy was excellent and the bore was shinny clean but it looked like it was snowing after every shot... :)

Tony