Some questions from an Uber Noob

[dark mod]

Hey guys, ive been lurking a good long time but i have a few very specific questions that arent easily answered by the stickies. Any help would be great, im about to place my order and dive into the world of casting, but unfortunatley my manual will come with my casting material, so i want to know enough that i order the right things. thanks!

1. For gaschecked .357 magnum at magnum velocities, what alloy/hardness do i need and where do i get the alloy or how do i create it? Most of what i read ends up turning into an argument about bullet fit. I intend to slug my barrel and throat to size the bullets appropriatley, but i need to know how hard it needs to be. Or does it not matter because they are gas checked?

Can i use the same alloy for slower, non gas checked .45 acp loads? Or should i use a softer alloy? If thats the case, do most of you have stacks of labeled ingots of different alloys? or do you create the alloy on the spot, cast a few bullets, wait for it to cool, and then test the hardness?

How do i create a say, 18 bhn alloy for example? is there a place i can just buy the alloy? When i went to buy lead, they have the different alloys listed as 20-1, or 40-1, or lyman #2, but no mention of hardness.

If i slug my barrel at .357, and my throat at .359, What diamter should i size to? .001 over the throat? so .360 or will .359 suffice? or should i find a happy medium like at .358 so its not shaving/swaging lead to fit through?

2. Do i need to use different lubes for different velocities? or is the lee liquid alox lube fine for any application?

3. Is it possiible to acheive magnum (1350 fps or so) velocities without a gas check? If the alloy is hard enough and the bullet fits well, can i just buy plain base molds?

4. For a gas checked .30-30 at around 1900 fps what hardness should i be going for?

What else should i buy besides a melting pot, molds, sizers (sizer will lube as well), ingot molds, lead alloy, gas checks, manual, hardness tester, and safety gear?

Sorry for the barrage, any help would be greatly appreciated

[Wolfer]

That's a lot of questions but here goes.
You can use the same alloy for gas checked magnum and plain based 45. The bhn could probably be from 8 up 10 being just as good as 20

The LLa will probably be fine

Someone with expierence will have to answer # 3

4. I shoot a 10 bhn in my 30-30 @ 1700 fps

359 will probably be just fine

Making alloys. Most of use different mixtures of WWs and lead. Some air cooled some water dropped. It's not as difficult as it sounds. It's also not as important as you might think. Depending on what you want to do with them of course.

[RogerDat]

Thermometer. Tru temp has an inexpensive one with 200 -1000 range

[dbosman]

1) bollit fit is more important that hardness.
2) lots of folks only ever use Lee Liquid Alox.
3) boolit fit is still more important that hardness. 1350 fps isn't all that fast and many people here use plain base boolits.
4) Your budget will determine how much of what you purchase.

I smelt on a Coleman gas stove in a used stainless steel condiment tray. My spoon, skimmer, ladle, and ingot mold is a $2.00 1/3 cup stainless steel "soup" ladle. I could cast using the same setup. I prefer to use a bottom pour Lee pot.
Sizing may or may not be necessary. Boolit fit in your gun will answer that question.
Lead and alloys are readily available from RotoMetals, or several of the members in the Swap and Shop section.
There are several lead alloy calculators, in the stickies section, to help figure out what to melt together.
Gas checks are an area of discussion, not necessarily a requirement.

As to molds, I'm going to have to suggest simply reading for a few weeks. In my opinion for a .30-30 you should be looking for about 170 grain projectile with a long bearing surface. Loverin style round nose bullets are classics. Lots of us prefer a flat point.

My personal favorite for any .30 plinking is the Lyman 311316 with a gas check.
The Lyman 3118 or 311008 is the same boolit in a flat base. I hope to own or borrow one some day.

[357shooter]

So not everbody casts and loads exactly the same, some things are more common than others. Here's what works for my 357's:

I use fairly soft fat bullets, wadcutters are usually pure range lead with little tin, magnum loads could be WW cut one part WW with 2 or 3 parts of range lead, it doesn't seem to matter. Basically that same alloy can be used for all the loads. I use gas checks for 357 rifle's when getting much over 1500 - 1600 FPS, some guys do so over 1400. Some guys use gas check for all magnum loads. Two of the famous molds are the Keith (non checked) and the Ray Thompson (checked). Those and other designs from mold makers like NOE and Accurate are terrific. Some checked, some not. You will have to try and see how your fit, powder of choice and load of choice all work in you revolvers.

Because of the rifle, I do shoot checked bullets in my revolvers, mainly because I loaded magnum loads for the rifle. In my opinion, the 358-429 Keith and a 148 wadcutter are the two molds I would own for my revolvers if I could only have 2. There are plenty of others in the running, I think it's the Lyman 150 that is pretty awesome too.

For size, there's some controversy. I size bigger than throat size and find that it's more accurate. Others will say that makes no sense because the throat swages the bullet anyway. Go figure. I still size bigger than the throat, which needs to be no smaller than the groove. Actuallyafter thinking abou it, I just size them all at .360 these days.

As far a lube goes, there will be a couple of views again. I get the most consistent and best results using a lubrisizer and a good lube. Every few years I decide that tumbe lubing should work for me like it apparently does for others, and give it a try. I just tried again and got bad leading, again. Maybe it's something I'm doing wrong, but I don't get good results no matter which "recipe" I use.

Hopefully there is something helpful in this rambling post. Don't be surprised if you find some guys that get great results water dropping and gas checking everything they load. They don't have to do it, but it's working for them.

[bangerjim]

Buy the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Very valuable and will help you! If that is not the one you are getting.......get it.

Check out the LASC website. It has a wealth of info for subjects you raised above.

Download the FREE excel spreadsheet on this site for alloy calculations. Good tool.

Make sure your money tree in the backyard is well watered and fertilized!

Use the "advanced search" function, not the little white box, to look up answers to your questions.

And welcome to our habit!

Have fun.

bangerjim

[dark mod]

Thanks Guys! I did find a chart that gives the relative hardness of the major alloys sold by rotometals, wolfer reccomended 8- 10 hardness so i think i will buy my first batch around there and work my loads up. I think i will also start with plain base bullets in all handgun calibers and see if i can work up to the velocity i want by just relying on proper bullet fit. .30-30 will be gaschecked, but im wondering now if the 200 grn mold would be more practical than the 170. I typically load 150 - 170 grn jacketed bullets, but the 200 grn will have the benefit of a longer bearing surface while moving slower, partially alleviating my concerns about hardness and velocity. I think i may quite enjoy a heavy hitting albeit slower .30-30 round.

[MtGun44]

Don't buy the story that hot loads MUST have "hard alloy", this is baloney.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50446&d=1244513448

Fit is critical, design is very important, lube is very important, hardness is important only when
it is important . . . . . really. Most don't find it necessary to do any special hardness stuff.
Air cooled wwt alloy at about 11-12 is fine. I had some range scrap at 8 BHN and tried it, worked
fine.

Size to revolver throat diam as long as it is equal to or larger than barrel groove diam. Should not
be a big problem to move 170 gr .30-30 at 2000+ speeds, try .310 or .311 for most ".308 rifles".

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Hey guys, ive been lurking a good long time but i have a few very specific questions that arent easily answered by the stickies. Any help would be great, im about to place my order and dive into the world of casting, but unfortunatley my manual will come with my casting material, so i want to know enough that i order the right things. thanks!

1. For gaschecked .357 magnum at magnum velocities, what alloy/hardness do i need and where do i get the alloy or how do i create it? Most of what i read ends up turning into an argument about bullet fit. I intend to slug my barrel and throat to size the bullets appropriatley, but i need to know how hard it needs to be. Or does it not matter because they are gas checked?

Can i use the same alloy for slower, non gas checked .45 acp loads? Or should i use a softer alloy? If thats the case, do most of you have stacks of labeled ingots of different alloys? or do you create the alloy on the spot, cast a few bullets, wait for it to cool, and then test the hardness?

How do i create a say, 18 bhn alloy for example? is there a place i can just buy the alloy? When i went to buy lead, they have the different alloys listed as 20-1, or 40-1, or lyman #2, but no mention of hardness.

If i slug my barrel at .357, and my throat at .359, What diamter should i size to? .001 over the throat? so .360 or will .359 suffice? or should i find a happy medium like at .358 so its not shaving/swaging lead to fit through?

2. Do i need to use different lubes for different velocities? or is the lee liquid alox lube fine for any application?

3. Is it possiible to acheive magnum (1350 fps or so) velocities without a gas check? If the alloy is hard enough and the bullet fits well, can i just buy plain base molds?

4. For a gas checked .30-30 at around 1900 fps what hardness should i be going for?

What else should i buy besides a melting pot, molds, sizers (sizer will lube as well), ingot molds, lead alloy, gas checks, manual, hardness tester, and safety gear?

Sorry for the barrage, any help would be greatly appreciated

1. Use ACWW (Bhn 10-11) up to No. 2 (Bhn 15). You can smelt your own alloy from clip on wheel weights or buy it from Rotometals. Click on the individual alloys and you will find the Bhn hardness numbers. You don't need anything harder than Bhn. 10 and anything over Bhn. 15 is just a waste of metal that will give you nothing in return. There is no need to water drop or use other granite hard alloys, that is utter nonsense. Sit back and watch the water drop boys pile on here!

Yes, the same alloy can be used for 45 ACP bullets.

Size you 38/357 bullets .358 and don't look back. You will be OK.

2. I am not fond of LLA and it has a limited range of usefulness. You can find a lube that can be used for all of your mentioned applications.

3. Yes you can. But you will find a gas check makes life easier at those handgun velocities.

4. Same answer at No. 1 above.

Your list of goodies is plenty good. You can do without the hardness tester unless you are using scrap metals of unknown hardness.

[Bigslug]

Have yourself a large breakfast some Saturday morning, then park yourself on the couch in your jammies with the coffee and click here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?110213-From-Ingot-to-Target-A-Cast-Bullet-Guide-for-Handgunners

That link will answer most of your questions in great detail, but the main thing I want to say on reading your post is that gas checks are not necessary at the velocities you think they are. Most lead fouling issues occur (1.) because the bullets are too hard, not too soft, for the pressures involved, and (2.) that they do not properly fit the gun. I bought a bunch of new molds once I figured this out so that I could QUIT using checks on certain calibers. The .357 and .44 Magnums were among the first of these.

As you get deeper into this game, you'll learn more about scrounging metal and creating alloys, but for the sake of keeping it simple through your "Uber Noob" phase, I would suggest the following:

Order a bunch of Lyman #2 alloy from Rotometals (see link at the top of our forum page). This is 90% lead, 5% tin, 5% antimony and 15BHN. This is fine for your .30-30 (the consensus is that you WILL want to gas-check those), and can be used for about anything (although you are wasting expensive hardening metals using them where they are not needed)

Also order a bunch of pure lead. If you mix this with your Lyman #2 at a 1-to-1 ratio, you'll have 95%/2.5%/2.5% and a hardness of 12 BHN, which is essentially clip-on wheel weights and perfect for .357's and .44 mags, and perfectly workable in most any handgun below that level.

If you mix at a ratio of 2 lead to 1 Lyman #2, you'll have 97.5/1.25/1.25 and a hardness of 10BHN, which is ideal for .38 Specials, .45 ACP and things of that ilk.

I would suggest a pair of v-anvil micrometers; one a three-flute and the other a five-flute. The 3-flute has a sharper V that works for measuring slugs from even-numbered land/groove barrels, and the five-flute for measuring slugs with offset lands and grooves. The three-flute is not really necessary if you have a simple micrometer. I actually bought my 3-flute by mistake when I needed a 5, but I've come to prefer it as it measures diameter off three points of contact rather than only two. You can find the Chinese ones on e-bay for about $60-$70 bucks - - might not hack it in NASA, but good enough for our purposes.

[dark mod]

Thanks for all the help guys! Trying to figure which size dies to buy so i slugged my gp100 today:

chamber throat in the cylinder came out to an even .356

But when i slugged the bore, i got a .3525 groove diameter... Not sure if this is normal. Can you guys help? im worried i measured it wrong since it seems to have an odd number of rifling grooves, but i tried to balance the caliper on the left edge of the rifling on top, and the right edge of the rifling on bottom.

If this is normal, Should i size to .357?

[Ben]

dark mod

Using a caliper to measure a bullet is like a brain surgeon using a yard stick.

Do you have a micrometer to measure your bullet with ? If you use a good micrometer I'm betting you may get different numbers.

Ben

[dark mod]

dark mod

Using a caliper to measure a bullet is like a brain surgeon using a yard stick.

Do you have a micrometer to measure your bullet with ? If you use a good micrometer I'm betting you may get different numbers.

Ben

Unfortunately i dont.... I suppose thats something else i need to buy, but its something i need to buy before ordering my casting gear, so looks like it will be a few more days before i can place my order.

Thanks so much for your help guys, ill report back with micrometer reading.


Edit:

Found this thread on castboolits
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-99288.html

Guy had a similar problem with his GP100 and figured the reading was off due to the odd number of grooves. I think im just going to try the experimentation method, starting with a .357 sizer. Anyone foresee a problem with a .357 bullet swaging to .356 at the throat, then to .3525 in the barrel?

Ill be prepared to buy a .358 sizing die if the accuracy isnt up to par.

[Wayne Smith]

Just start with the .358 sizer. You can always step back if you need, but it's hard to size up! Essentially your basic rule with lead is: If you can chamber it you can shoot it. If you don't have accuracy then start asking questions.

[357shooter]

Agreed, start with the 358. It's doubtful your groove diameter is 3525. Just forget those numbers from the calipers.

[MtGun44]

Enco has some decent Fowler mics for under $40.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=16720828&PMAKA=619-3106

Used Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, Mitutoyo on eBay can be a deal, too.

Calipers are just not up to boolit diameter measurements. Lots of reasons you need the accy
to be .0001 to measure reliably in the .001 range. Basically, you need to be able to measure
.3583 reliably as different from .3586 or similar and a caliper won't really do it, altho lots of
folks are convinced that they have a magical caliper and know just the right way to read it.

I've worked with the metrology dept for a large aerospace manufacturer, and they have
taught me just enough to know that you really need the right tools for this kind of
precision measurement.

Bill

[dark mod]

Roger that guys, micrometer it is. If i run out and buy one at lunch time, i can Mic the slug when i get home and possibly place the order tonight. Thanks for the help!

[Char-Gar]

Thanks for all the help guys! Trying to figure which size dies to buy so i slugged my gp100 today:

chamber throat in the cylinder came out to an even .356
.
But when i slugged the bore, i got a .3525 groove diameter... Not sure if this is normal. Can you guys help? im worried i measured it wrong since it seems to have an odd number of rifling grooves, but i tried to balance the caliper on the left edge of the rifling on top, and the right edge of the rifling on bottom.

If this is normal, Should i size to .357?


Those numbers are most assuredly wrong. Ruger does not make and sell firearms that far out of spec. Those number are low by about .002.

Even the most expensive calipers are inferior to a cheap micrometer in this area. Calipers have their use for measuring case length and a few other items. They should not be used in determining the specs of firearms. Time and time again, we have people come to this site with problems, based on the use of caliper derived specs.

If you have a .357 sizing die, use it and it will probably please you. If you have not bought one yet, but a .358. .358 is a sure winner. This will work I guarantee.

[popper]

Roto #2 is too expensive. Get the high antimony, pure and add solder for tin - you just need a tad. Hard ball is OK too. Lee sizers are good, the final size will depend on your alloy. My $9 HF caliper works fine. Surprised Banger didn't promote the powder coat - it works in everything I use, no gooey mess. 30/30 GC mould - if a lever gun, 165-170 sized 0.311 is probably best - heavier may be too long. As a Noob, start with one gun, get it working and research for the others here. I started with 40SW, probably the easiest - for you, 357 rifle or 45 ACP.

[runfiverun]

I'd just get the 358 sizer to begin with too.
I size all my 35 cal stuff [9mm,357mag,358 win] to that and have no issues.

I don't even measure a gun unless it gives me a problem.