For a dedicated CB rifle, 308 or 30/06

[Lefty Red]

Ok, its too cold to shoot, the range hasn't approved my membership yet, and I have the chance to get another rifle for deer thinning!

I can get either caliber for about the same price, used, and its going to be used for deer thinning out to 250-300 yards max. Casted Boolits only. So not going to run the Boolits at mach anything.

If I was going to get The Rifle and use it as my dream build, then its the 30/06 hands down. But plan on just bedding the stock, put decent glass on it, and tweaking here and there. Nothing major. One is a Remington 700 and the over is a Savage. Triggers on both seem good enough. Both rifles have a a good "feel" when shouldered, and that says something from a Lefty! :) I have used both brands and really don't have a basis. I do lean to Savages just because they also have a left handed version. But these are older rifles and both in left handed versions. I am not set up to reload either caliber, but do have a few .309 molds. Only .30 cal I have casted and reloaded for was the 30/30.

So was wondering if the 308 and its smaller case would serve better?
What is the heaviest bullet the 308 can run at that range?

Thanks for any and all feedback. Is it the veteran 30/06 or the newer .308?

Lefty

[pworley1]

I shoot cast in both. Mine will both shoot the 170 -190 grain out to 150, I don't hunt where I would ever get the 250-300 yard shot.

[scattershot]

That seems like an awful long way to poke something with a lead boolit, but my choice would probably be the .308. Brass is plentiful, and it seems that you would get more bang for your buck (so to speak) with the smaller case capacity, and the action is shorter, if that matters to you.

[Larry Gibson]

If the .308W has a 12" twist get that one for the probable higher velocity for the desired 250-300 yard max range with cast.

If both have 10" twists get the '06 simply for the longer neck.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

I have both and shoot both with cast. If I were to choose as per your thread title " a dedicated CB rifle " I would choose the one with lesser case capacity.
Recently I have been shooting a 308 to 1000 yards with very pleasing results. My load uses an NEI design Walt called a DD. It has a long bore riding nose at bore diameter but at the origin of ogive has a narrow ring at groove diameter.
The ring is for alignment and to eliminate slump on ignition.
The boolit weighs 200gn with a BC of about 370. My load of 20gn of Alliant Steel gives a very consistent 2000 fps.
If for hunting I would choose the 30/06 as I want a bit higher velocity and use slower powders to get it. I have taken caribou with the 30/06 and cast boolits and with good boolit design and respectable velocity (2300 to 2400 fps) worked as well as any jacketed bullet at the same performance level. I compare an 30/06 so loaded to the factory loadings in 30/40 Kraig or 303 British.
You said dedicated cast boolit rifle but didn't say for hunting or target. My simple answer is Target=308 Hunting=30/06

[AlaskanGuy]

+1 for the 308 .... Near perfection in my book for deer, and will work well on just about everything else as well with the exception of the bigger stuff we have here in Ak... Can be loaded up or down, can shoot far and short... In my opinion, the 308 is about the most versatile cal there is....

AG

[Lefty Red]

So am I asking too much for a CB to be taken out to 300 yards and take a deer down?

[Lefty Red]

And to clearify, its mainly for deer hunting out to 300 yards max. But I do plan on shooting allot this summer as I am not use to a bolt. As A lefty, I normally just use a lever or SS.

[357maximum]

So am I asking too much for a CB to be taken out to 300 yards and take a deer down?

Not if the nut behind the gun is tight(YOU)/the gun/the boolit/the alloy/the load are up to it ....you are not asking too much. With much practice deer have been taken at 240yards with a 357MAX pistol cold bore. :mrgreen:

Get a b-plex style scope and practice alot with a good accurate load......that is all you need for consistent kills at 300.......you will likely find that once you set up for 300 yard kills most the deer will wanna be shot at bowhunting range...but that is just a quirk that those that are prepared have to face. :lol:

[geargnasher]

Send either one to Goodsteel and get him to chamber a barrel in .30-'06 with his tight-neck reamer. That will give you the quickest path to success.

Gear

[Bullshop]

If your planning on shooting deer with cast 30s at 300 yards you might want to look into casting soft nose or maybe improve on your tracking skills.
Casting soft nose has been discussed here several time so seek and ye shall find.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I guess we all have opinions...so I'll add mine.
Keep looking till you find one in 358win
Jon

[GabbyM]

There is a bullet over on group buys in the works. 30 caliber 215 grain Hollow point. My name is on the list so I can play with this in my 30-06. 300 yards may be a reach but this thing looks like a great candidate for a shot at it. Have a 180gr HP that has a body to fit in the 308 Win. Am shooting it in my 30-06. Might shoot better from a 308 with a 1:12 twist barrel. Don't know and never have owned a 308. However I'd bet the 30-06 will shoot the 215 or 220 grain bullets better than a 308.

[Larry Gibson]

So am I asking too much for a CB to be taken out to 300 yards and take a deer down?

Here's my take on the question after 46 years of killing deer with cast bullets;

Hitting the deer at 300 yards with a cast bullet out of either rifle is not hard, Even hitting the deer in the heart/lung area with a cast bullet at 250-300 yards is not hard if enough actual field practice is done. Killing the deer at that range quickly so it doesn't go far and be lost with a cast bullet is the hard part. It is going to require a high enough velocity for a softer nosed cast bullet to still expand at that range for better terminal effect. A cast bullet having a softer nose for expansion with a decent BC such as the 311299 requires 2200 fps velocity to retain 1550 - 1600 fps at 300 yards to be effective.

That velocity (2200 fps) is not difficult at all to achieve with either cartridge. However, in a 10" twist it will be difficult to do so with sufficient accuracy at 300 yards to hit the heart/lung area of a deer with surety. Accuracy testing at 50 or 100 yards will not be sufficient to ascertain the actual accuracy capability at 200 yards let alone 300 yards. However, with a 12" twist 2150 - 2200+ fps with sufficient accuracy to hit the heart/lung area of a deer at 300 yards with surety can be done.....and a whole lot easier. With the 12" twist barrel, the right bullet and load perhaps even 2300 - 2400 fps is a real possibility. Hence, if given a choice then go with the 12" twist as there's not a lot of real difference between the 2 cartridges in and of themselves as far as cast bullet shooting. The difference between a 10 and 12" twist is the real difference.

PP'd cast bullets for either is also an alternative.

But let us keep in mind that 95+% of all big game are killed on the short side of 200 yards. Of that 95+% there is 80+% killed on the short side of 100 yards.

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

A 4inch square plate hanging at 300 yards will soon tell you waht you wanna know...only the first shot counts!

If the buffalo bp guys can hit a bull in the **** at 1000 with a 45/70 you should be able to do what you wanna do at 300 with a 308/30-06......if you want it badly enough to practice until you are proficient. A standard 311041 puttin along at 300 will kill all the deer you want...it is up to the shooter to put it there...... 1st shot everytime.

[Lefty Red]

I have to clear up something, I do shoot allot and I ask these questions as a veteran shooter and hunter. I wouldn't shoot at an animal if I didn't think I could cleanly make the shot and humanely kill the animal. Reason I am asking these questions here. I want to know what the .30 cal CBs can do from actual hunters and shooters. This is the only website I support with my hard earned money because of this.

The shooting "range" is my max distance. We ranged it from the barn to the far ends of the fields. I just want to be sure if the CB can do it at the max range. If it can't, then I will practice with CB and hunt with jacketed bullets loaded hot. Plus our shooting platform will be a very sturdy table in the barn/lean to.

Lefty

[Lefty Red]

Here's my take on the question after 46 years of killing deer with cast bullets;

Hitting the deer at 300 yards with a cast bullet out of either rifle is not hard, Even hitting the deer in the heart/lung area with a cast bullet at 250-300 yards is not hard if enough actual field practice is done. Killing the deer at that range quickly so it doesn't go far and be lost with a cast bullet is the hard part. It is going to require a high enough velocity for a softer nosed cast bullet to still expand at that range for better terminal effect. A cast bullet having a softer nose for expansion with a decent BC such as the 311299 requires 2200 fps velocity to retain 1550 - 1600 fps at 300 yards to be effective.

That velocity (2200 fps) is not difficult at all to achieve with either cartridge. However, in a 10" twist it will be difficult to do so with sufficient accuracy at 300 yards to hit the heart/lung area of a deer with surety. Accuracy testing at 50 or 100 yards will not be sufficient to ascertain the actual accuracy capability at 200 yards let alone 300 yards. However, with a 12" twist 2150 - 2200+ fps with sufficient accuracy to hit the heart/lung area of a deer at 300 yards with surety can be done.....and a whole lot easier. With the 12" twist barrel, the right bullet and load perhaps even 2300 - 2400 fps is a real possibility. Hence, if given a choice then go with the 12" twist as there's not a lot of real difference between the 2 cartridges in and of themselves as far as cast bullet shooting. The difference between a 10 and 12" twist is the real difference.

PP'd cast bullets for either is also an alternative.

But let us keep in mind that 95+% of all big game are killed on the short side of 200 yards. Of that 95+% there is 80+% killed on the short side of 100 yards.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry, for the twist info. It is very helpful and much needing info!

I was going to ask in another area about PP the bullets. I have them for my muzzleloader, and they are amazing!

And I agree with everyone that game is taken closer than my max distance. In fact, I doubt I will take that shot due to the fact that its only a small area of the field we will be set up in. But always that possibility, just want to be sure. I always plan for the worste.

Lefty

[Lefty Red]

A 4inch square plate hanging at 300 yards will soon tell you waht you wanna know...only the first shot counts!

If the buffalo bp guys can hit a bull in the **** at 1000 with a 45/70 you should be able to do what you wanna do at 300 with a 308/30-06......if you want it badly enough to practice until you are proficient. A standard 311041 puttin along at 300 will kill all the deer you want...it is up to the shooter to put it there...... 1st shot everytime.

So true Max! So true!

[Lefty Red]

Larry

I agree with needing a soft point CB. I was thinking of using what ever bullet that I decided on and then "softing" the nose in the oven like I do with my 357 or 44 bullets. But really thinking about PP solving the problem as well.

Lefty

[Larry Gibson]

Lefty

PPing can definitely solve the problem with either cartridge.

However, if you want to remain a bit traditionalist (PPing, like BP and the hoola-hoop are passing fads.......though I did see a kid with a hoola-hoop a while back:roll:) a better and easier method (Bruceb's - there's a sticky on it somewhere) than using the oven is to use an alloy such as COWWs + 2% tin and then mixed at 50/50 with lead. WQ them out of the mould and wait 48+ hours for max hardening. Then stand in pan of cold water just over the front driving band. Heat with a propane torch until the noses just turn color and let sit to cool off. You are just softening the noses that way. Easy to do for the few you'll actually use hunting. The fully hard ones can be used for zero and practice.

Larry Gibson

[Lefty Red]

Larry

I have done some pistol bullets that way and it is the easiest, I think.

Lefty

[MBTcustom]

I can't really argue with Larrys advice here.
Personally, I would go with 30-06 if I were faced with your stated situation.
However, my personal hunting philosophy has changed in the last few years (due in a large part to the advice I have received here on the forum.) I no longer put myself in a situation where I need to lob a warp speed projectile 300 yards in order to fill the freezer. After all, the deer cant shoot back, and you are going to have to pack that critter out (probably just opposite the direction that the boolit went).
Its just a different philosophy.
Therefore, I figure I want a rifle that will work well with cast, and then its all about running the darn thing like a .22 so that you can snap a hole in anything you want to even if you only have a 2" opening 50 yards away to shoot through.
Of the two rifles you mentioned, the 308 is better suited for case capacity, but they have a tendency to barrel those with 10 twist which is going to make things difficult for you.
30-06 is much more likely to give you a 12 twist, but then you have to tie its shoelaces together in order to get good results, and you'll be using fillers etc etc.

Not that either 30-06 or 308 can't be made to give excellent results with cast (I'm working on one myself), it's just that neither of them are really ideal.

You mentioned that you have a 30-30. That cartridge has everything going for it. You can push it to 2400fps, and those Marlins are often more accurate than they have any right to be. That is the ultimate deer slayer.

If you want to improve on the 30-30, you need a similar cartridge that can put more mass downrange which equals retained energy for the reasons Larry has pointed out. That's why my all time favorite cast rifle is a 358 Winchester with a 14 twist 24" long. You just can't run a boolit too fast in that rifle, because the energy deposit will quickly become too great long before you max out on speed (see the link in my sig line).
If you wanted the ultimate cast lead rifle, then buy that 308, and send it off to JES and have it bored out to 35 caliber 1-14 three groove. You will have a very hard time topping that combo for cast lead. It just doesn't get any better.

[Lefty Red]

I can't really argue with Larrys advice here.
Personally, I would go with 30-06 if I were faced with your stated situation.
However, my personal hunting philosophy has changed in the last few years (due in a large part to the advice I have received here on the forum.) I no longer put myself in a situation where I need to lob a warp speed projectile 300 yards in order to fill the freezer. After all, the deer cant shoot back, and you are going to have to pack that critter out (probably just opposite the direction that the boolit went).
Its just a different philosophy.
Therefore, I figure I want a rifle that will work well with cast, and then its all about running the darn thing like a .22 so that you can snap a hole in anything you want to even if you only have a 2" opening 50 yards away to shoot through.
Of the two rifles you mentioned, the 308 is better suited for case capacity, but they have a tendency to barrel those with 10 twist which is going to make things difficult for you.
30-06 is much more likely to give you a 12 twist, but then you have to tie its shoelaces together in order to get good results, and you'll be using fillers etc etc.

Not that either 30-06 or 308 can't be made to give excellent results with cast (I'm working on one myself), it's just that neither of them are really ideal.

You mentioned that you have a 30-30. That cartridge has everything going for it. You can push it to 2400fps, and those Marlins are often more accurate than they have any right to be. That is the ultimate deer slayer.

If you want to improve on the 30-30, you need a similar cartridge that can put more mass downrange which equals retained energy for the reasons Larry has pointed out. That's why my all time favorite cast rifle is a 358 Winchester with a 14 twist 24" long. You just can't run a boolit too fast in that rifle, because the energy deposit will quickly become too great long before you max out on speed (see the link in my sig line).
If you wanted the ultimate cast lead rifle, then buy that 308, and send it off to JES and have it bored out to 35 caliber 1-14 three groove. You will have a very hard time topping that combo for cast lead. It just doesn't get any better.

Well, looks like keeping the cost down just went out the window! :)
So get the 308 and have it re-barreled to 358 Win. Ok, who needs new shoes?

Lefty

[MBTcustom]

Im sorry lefty. I gave advice based on your parameters, but if you have a 308 LH rifle, you are so close to the ultimate cast lead cartridge, I couldn't resist throwing the 358 with JES's rifling out there as a cherry on top.
I just really have a heart for you southpaws. You have a darn hard time finding a good rifle in the first place, and finding one in 358 is really rare. However, not many people really know about JES and his awesome 3 groove rifling, so I thought I'd throw it out there as a possible reason to lean towards the 308 option. I would put that combo up against any custom high performance cast lead boolit rifle available. It has a stack of pluses 12" deep and mighty shy on the minuses.
You wouldn't be "making do" with a rifle like that, you would have the golden goose.

[45 2.1]

The Ruger Gunsite in the left handed stainless version is a prize... and in 308 already to go. I highly recommend it.

[coalgeo]

The Ruger Gunsite in the left handed stainless version is a prize... and in 308 already to go. I highly recommend it.

+1
Greg

[MBTcustom]

The Ruger Gunsite in the left handed stainless version is a prize... and in 308 already to go. I highly recommend it.

+2.
I've shot one. In left hand no less!
Class act all the way.

[Bullshop]

And I just happen to have a small ring mauser available with a fresh 3 groove rebore from Jes available.

[geargnasher]

Who makes a production 12-twist '06?

Here's another good option for the Savage: Get an E. Arthur Brown Co. .308 "accuracy barrel" in 24", 12-twist. It will have a tight throat and probably will necessitate the use of .308" cast boolits (much smaller than typical boolit sizes used in .30 calibers), but for $259 it will make a world of difference at long range and make it much easier for the average bear to achieve accurate high(er) velocity at long range like Larry Gibson mentioned.

You could also paper patch either caliber and not have any of the typical drawbacks found with shooting cast boolits. I took a LH Model 70 Classic Sporter .30-'06, sloppy chamber and all, did some basic fireforming, neck sized only, and pushed deer-smashing water-quenched 50/50 wheel weight/pure lead alloy to 2700 fps with MOA accuracy to 500 yards with it using a mould designed for the purpose and two wraps of 100% cotton Vellum paper. It's a quick-n-dirty way to get just about any factory rifle to equal jacketed bullet performance with cast boolits, regardless of the twist rate you're stuck with. Read up on the stickies in the smokless paper-patching forum to learn how.

Gear

[HARRYMPOPE]

"50/50 wheel weight/pure lead alloy to 2700 fps with MOA accuracy to 500 yards with it using a mould designed for the purpose and two wraps of 100% cotton Vellum paper"

.
.
.
.





lets see pictures of the targets. Not just one lucky group.

[MBTcustom]

Who makes a production 12-twist '06?

Gear

Ummm, nobody :oops:
Sorry, my bad, I got the two confused. 30-06 is almost always 1-10. 308 can be had in 1-10, 1-11.25, or 1-12 such is common with Remingtons.
Seems backwards to me. My mistake.

[dverna]

If the objective is to kill deer at 300 yards, why use a cast bullet unless you have too?

Lefty, you have had some great advice. Yes, it can be done with cast. You will need to work on it a bit - or a lot. Some have recommended a new barrel to get the twist you may need. Is it worth the effort/expense?

Sierra 165 gr Gamekings are less than $35/100. You will have a lifetime supply of superior (accuracy, trajectory, and expansion) 300 yard bullets for the cost of a barrel. 300 yards is what makes cast bullets iffy. Heck, look at the cost of mold or three to get a bullet that works, plus gas checks, and you have spent enough for 200-300 premium jacketed bullets - with no hassle, little work and better long range performance.

Sometimes cast bullets are not the best answer. I can kill a deer at 300 yards with a .223 but that does not make it the right choice. What you can do is not the same as what you should do.

Reduce your range to 200 yards and running cast in your .30/30 does the job and does it well.

Don Verna

[swheeler]

Who makes a production 12-twist '06?

Here's another good option for the Savage: Get an E. Arthur Brown Co. .308 "accuracy barrel" in 24", 12-twist. It will have a tight throat and probably will necessitate the use of .308" cast boolits (much smaller than typical boolit sizes used in .30 calibers), but for $259 it will make a world of difference at long range and make it much easier for the average bear to achieve accurate high(er) velocity at long range like Larry Gibson mentioned.

You could also paper patch either caliber and not have any of the typical drawbacks found with shooting cast boolits. I took a LH Model 70 Classic Sporter .30-'06, sloppy chamber and all, did some basic fireforming, neck sized only, and pushed deer-smashing water-quenched 50/50 wheel weight/pure lead alloy to 2700 fps with MOA accuracy to 500 yards with it using a mould designed for the purpose and two wraps of 100% cotton Vellum paper. It's a quick-n-dirty way to get just about any factory rifle to equal jacketed bullet performance with cast boolits, regardless of the twist rate you're stuck with. Read up on the stickies in the smokless paper-patching forum to learn how.

Gear

Husqvarna and Browning 78

[starmac]

Just curious, is the remington 308 or 06? If the cost are the same, I know which I would buy, but it wouldn't be because it would be the best for your use. Old rem leftys are kinda hard to come by.

[HARRYMPOPE]

dverna I was thinking the same thing!

well said

[badbob454]

I guess we all have opinions...so I'll add mine.
Keep looking till you find one in 358win
Jon

i have to agree with this before u buy give 35 a try 358 win would be one dandy cast rifle .... i have a 35 remington and a 35 whelen , would love a 358 win

[Lefty Red]

If I wasn't already single, I think I would soon be! LOL
Well, I can get the used rifle for under $400. I think the conversion to 358 Win would be worth while.
All this for a fun CB shooter and deer thinner! Better than wasting money at the bars!

Lefty

[Lefty Red]

If the objective is to kill deer at 300 yards, why use a cast bullet unless you have too?

Lefty, you have had some great advice. Yes, it can be done with cast. You will need to work on it a bit - or a lot. Some have recommended a new barrel to get the twist you may need. Is it worth the effort/expense?

Sierra 165 gr Gamekings are less than $35/100. You will have a lifetime supply of superior (accuracy, trajectory, and expansion) 300 yard bullets for the cost of a barrel. 300 yards is what makes cast bullets iffy. Heck, look at the cost of mold or three to get a bullet that works, plus gas checks, and you have spent enough for 200-300 premium jacketed bullets - with no hassle, little work and better long range performance.

Sometimes cast bullets are not the best answer. I can kill a deer at 300 yards with a .223 but that does not make it the right choice. What you can do is not the same as what you should do.

Reduce your range to 200 yards and running cast in your .30/30 does the job and does it well.

Don Verna

True Don. But I think everyone is focusing on the fact that my MAX is 300 yards. Like I said before, its my MAX distance. And I wan to make sure IF I have to down a wounded animal at that range, this rifle load will do it. Majority of the shooting field is about 200 yards max.

And I want to use CBs. If it won't do it, then I will rethink and rework. Truefully, if I can get this rifle and it set up for under $800 then I think its very doable. Like I have said, as a single guy that doesn't run the bars, where else do I spend my money?

Lefty

[Dale in Louisiana]

But ain’t many troubles that a man cain’t fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.”

Lindy Cooper Wisdom

dale in Louisiana
(Who's watching the rain fall on his job in Mississippi)

[Lefty Red]

Just curious, is the remington 308 or 06? If the cost are the same, I know which I would buy, but it wouldn't be because it would be the best for your use. Old rem leftys are kinda hard to come by.

The Remington is the 30/06.

[MBTcustom]

True Don. But I think everyone is focusing on the fact that my MAX is 300 yards. Like I said before, its my MAX distance. And I wan to make sure IF I have to down a wounded animal at that range, this rifle load will do it. Majority of the shooting field is about 200 yards max.

And I want to use CBs. If it won't do it, then I will rethink and rework. Truefully, if I can get this rifle and it set up for under $800 then I think its very doable. Like I have said, as a single guy that doesn't run the bars, where else do I spend my money?

Lefty

So you said $400 for the rifle.
$250 for JES
$30.99 from MidwayUSA for the Lee Pacesetter die set.
Buy some 308 brass from one of the good fellers here on the forum, and you're in like Flynn for less than $750.
Bazinga!
Spend the remaining $50 on a pair of plaid bell bottoms so you can do the funky disco happy dance! Bow-chicka-bow-bow....

[cbashooter]

No need for a full custom gun.A Savage 308 or Remmy 700 will do just fine.Unless you go a full BR action,barrel and chamber and custom benchrest dies your money is wasted for the small acuraccy gain.Or set back a 308 and chamber it with a 260 rem reamer with a 30 pilot.Then cut the neck and throat with a 30-40 Krag reamer.Nice tight no need to turn neck and good throat for little cost.

[Lefty Red]

So you said $400 for the rifle.
$250 for JES
$30.99 from MidwayUSA for the Lee Pacesetter die set.
Buy some 308 brass from one of the good fellers here on the forum, and you're in like Flynn for less than $750.
Bazinga!
Spend the remaining $50 on a pair of plaid bell bottoms so you can do the funky disco happy dance! Bow-chicka-bow-bow....`

Yep! It is too easy! LOL
Heading out to see if THe Savation Army has any plaid pants!