Shotgun Slugs

[longbow]

I just finished a mould to make some test slugs for a fellow down South ~ but then most of you are down South from me anyway.

I thought you might be interested in the photos.

This one is from the first run of 28 I just cast - not perfect but not bad, out of 28 from a new mould 14 are good.

These cast at 605 grs. but are a little longer than he wanted so I will adjust to shorten the slug and they should come out between 500 and 550 grs. Sized to fit in a shotcup.

Kind of a devastating looking hollow point!

Longbow

[Blammer]

nice! what gauge? what dia?

[7br]

Iffn you have that in 20gauge, I would be real interested. Got a picture of the mould?

[longbow]

These are for 12 ga. The request was for 0.650" diameter which they are but long at 0.840" - about 0.050" longer than requested.

This is one of my push out moulds so length adjustment is easy - I just adjust the nose form position up to shorten the slug. Next batch will be to spec.

He plans on loading them in thick steel shot wads for rifled 12 ga. I was actually in the process of making myself a mould but more like a Brenneke with attached wad column. I may try it with this one too.

I also made a split mould recently for thin skirt Foster style slug to fit into Winchester AA shotcup. I figured the extra thin skirt at 0.050" filled with hot melt would place more nose weight forward. There is a picture here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=21648&highlight=longbow The picture is pretty grainy but the slugs look good and I had no trouble with filling out the skirt - surprising!

I have loaded those Fosters but not had a chance to shoot them yet. These ones will have to wait until I can make up some felt wads to attach - certainly more suitable for a rifled gun (mine is smoothbore - hence the Foster style but AQ's are excellent, just too expensive).

If you have a lathe or a friend with one the push out moulds are easy to make. I use 1 1/2" round bar and bore to suit what diameter I want or make a reamer for smaller calibers like .44 or .303. There is a picture of one of my push out moulds here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=215015&highlight=longbow#post215015

The mould shown is actually for .303 British but the principle is the same.

Longbow

[Blammer]

like that but in .626 dia with one big lube groove in the middle, is what I'm lookin for.

[longbow]

I can't do lube grooves in a push out mould - kinda makes ejection difficult. You'd need a split mould for that or possibly a swaged groove or even easier, knurling.

I'm assuming you are using a rifled barrel if you like a solid slug.

You might get a Lyman 20 ga. Foster mould opened up and use a modified core pin with flat face so you get a heavy solid. Another option is the push out type mould then knurl or groove or even use a lubed wad under the slug and over the gas seal.

I made a groover for smooth boolits that puts kinda like microgrooves in the boolit. Sort of like annular knurling about 0.010" wide by the same deep and lots of them. You can easily make a push out mould to any size you want then groove and lube but the lubed wad might be just the thing for shotgun.

Just a thought.

[Blammer]

duh! I totally forgot about the "pushout" mould.

If I was gonna want one in 20ga I'd have to measure the wad's I'm gonna use.

[longbow]

This 12 ga. slug was sized for a tight fit in a steel shot wad. I will be shipping some to the fellow that asked or them soon for testing in a rifled barrel.

I have some Foster style I have done the same thing with. I made them to be snug in a Winchester AA wad but I am shooting a smoothbore.

In a rifled gun you need enough grip between wad and slug to make sure the slug rotates so a pretty good squeeze. I have also been told that the Winchester AA wads which are used for several "sabot" style slugs are too thin and undependable in a rifled gun often pinching off petals and causing flyers. I have no personal experience here though.

I thought you were looking for a full bore slug. Is it for smooth or rifled barrel?

Doesn't really matter I guess but if for smoothbore you need a Brenneke style or Foster style to keep a nose heavy slug - or use a round ball. If for rifled a solid slug is fine but if you want to load it in a shotcup then yes you have to check cup petal thickness and make sure the slug is tight so the rifling grips the wad and the wad grips the slug otherwise there may be slippage or stripping in the rifling.

As a point of interest my 12 ga. Fosters I made are 0.688" and a TIGHT fit in a Winchester AA shotcup but I can push it through the barrel with effort. I can't remember the petal thickness offhand but it is tight enough I think it would work in a rifled barrel.

Once these 12 ga. solid/hollow points are tested, if successful I can let you know the fit of slug to wad to barrel and that should translate to 20 ga. as well.

I am planning on going full bore with a Foster style slug by machining rings from the now 0.705" diameter Lyman Foster mould to 0.730" and leaving the current diameter as lube grooves - like Buckshot did.

Maybe one day I will get a rifled barrel or gun. Until then I play with the toys I have.

[Blammer]

My 20ga is a rifled barrel, a NEF slug barrel to be exact.

I am looking for a full bore slug with a lube groove prefereably, but have experimented with "wads" as sabots. There are a bunch of wads out there and many of them have different thicknesses of petals. I have had some experience with wad petals being pinched off, but usually it is the projectile that does the pinching and causing grief. Most of the projectiles I have tried that don't pinch off the petals have had long bodies on them for more surface area.

The lyman sabot has a perfect area to pinch off wad petals with that expanding skirt.

I have had fair success with Minni and Maxi balls and wads. Only problem is it is a compromise for the Minnie/Maxi ball dia and the wad thickness. Some are too large, so they don't fit and some are too small so they rattel around in the hull or barrel. neither are good for accuracy needless to say.

Ideally I would like either a full bore slug with lube groove or a "paper patch" smooth sided slug, at the right dia for the commonly avalilable wads I want to use. Neither seem to be available.

If I could find a drill bit the right size, I'd just drill out a Lee mould to the dia I want.

Two problems with that. I can use a 5/8th drill bit to get .625-.628 dia for a full bore but then no lube groove.

Second problem I can't find a drill bit smaller but not too small to make a slug to fit in the wad...

It may be a bit tedious to make full bore slugs and "machine" in a lube groove....

[longbow]

Blammer:

Look at these rolled grooves: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=18089&highlight=modified

Quick and easy to do - like rolled knurling. If you don't have the equipment you can't do it yourself but Corbin does make a groove roller for not too much money. They say it doesn't work in hard lead but my homemade one does fine with ACWW. My grooving rings are about the size of 1/2" x 13 UNC thread - but no pointy. Maybe the Corbin could be modified.

I wouldn't drill out your mould, it will be too rough and it would be difficult to drill on center anyway. Best to get it bored out on a lathe dialed in with a 4 jawed chuck.

If you are desparate I might be willing to give it a try after Christmas. Another alternative is to try Buckshot or one of the other members that has machine tools.

The pushout moulds I make would work but I'm not in the mould making business and you would have to groove after or use a lubed wad underneath a full bore slug.

What is your groove diameter for a full bore slug? After I finish with this 12 ga. project I may be able to help you out.

[Blammer]

My barrel slugs at .625, so bullet dia would ideally be .626.

Let me get the dia I'd want to use with a wad.

[longbow]

Maybe I missed something further back but I guess I assumed you had a Lee slug mould when you commented about drilling out your mould. The Lee 20 ga. mould should be sized to suit standard wads and could possibly be bored to full diameter leaving the existing diameter as the bottom of grease grooves.

If you were talking about opening up a minnie mould then there is a lot more meat to remove.

I would be inclined to try opening up a Lee or Lyman Foster slug mould and if you wanted a heavier slug then shorten or remove the core pin at least to make it flush with the base. This shouldn't be too much of a problem with a lathe as there would only be about 0.010" to 0.015" to remove to bring it up to bore diameter in 2 or 3 rings leaving 1 or 2 grease grooves.

If you have a Lee mould you want to try it with I might be able to do it. Lees are a lot cheaper than Lyman to play with. It would all have to be disassembled to bore it though - I don't have any Lees so I am not sure if it is easy to punch out the pins that hold the mould halves to the handles or not. If so the rest shouldn't be too difficult.

[Red River Rick]

Blammer:

Would this be of any interest? 0.626" Diameter, 565 grains.



RRR

[Blammer]

Longbow, yes a Lee mould was what I was thinking of using to drill out. When drilling out, for me it meant just that, getting a drill bit and drilling it out. No opportunity to "leave" some grease grooves.

I have used (and have one) two different Lee 20ga moulds, they cast very different dia boolits. Both cause the bullet to sit very loose in the wad.

Also I was thinking of drilling out a Minnie ball mould, but not to full bore dia, just large enough that it will set nicely in the shotgun wad. Right now my 58 cal Minnie sits too loose in the wad, maybe by a couple thousandths or so, and If I could get rid of the hollow base.... The hollowbase is what is obturating and "cutting" the petals off of the wads upon firing. This causes really bad fliers as you could guess.

RRR- Yes of interest. A bit heavy for what I ultimatley want but a good place to start. I can always have Buckshot HP the mould for decreased wt later. What's the details?

[Blammer]

"drilling out"the lee 20ga mould and leaving lube grooves sounds like a great idea!

[Red River Rick]

Blammer:

Here's another, a shortened version, hollow-point, 415 grains. If you have some sort of an idea for a specific bullet design, let me know. I can machine you a mould if you are interested.


RRR

[Blammer]

480 gr is an ounce so I'm trying to keep it close to that.

The 415gr above with a shorter nose, bigger meplat and perhaps a longer body to wt out to 450-480gr might be the ticket.

Front band, rear band, large lube groove and short 'blunt nose' may with wt at 480gr may be the ticktet.

Nose profile won't help aerodynamics, mostly for looks as far as I know.

What do you charge for a ,mould?

[Blammer]

.570-.573 is the dia of a slug I would need to put inside my shotgun wads. If it's on the .570 I can always beagle it to get it a bit larger if needed.

this dia would NOT need a lube groove as the wad will be the sabot if you will.

Paperpatch smooth would be fine as I could knurl the outside for grip.

Flat base with a nose of some sort, preferably FP, or HP would do nicely.

This is a great candidate for a push out mould.

[Blammer]

does anyone make a paperpatch mould that cast em at that dia?

[Red River Rick]

Blammer:

Some changes. Larger meplat, big HP cavity, short blunt nose, 440 gr, just over an oz.

I can custom machine you a P/P mould as well.

PM me if you are interested.


RRR

[Blammer]

I'm droolin....

[Ricochet]

Red River Rick, is that the old Paradox bullet?

[Red River Rick]

Ricochet, not quite, but similar. I don't have an original Paradox slug that I could use for dimensional purposes, so I have based this design on approximation. It's similar but not an exact copy.

RRR

[Ricochet]

Looks pretty close. Now that I think about it, I think the pics I've seen of the Paradox slug had a very large round bottomed groove in the middle. Dunno where I'd find it, maybe somewhere in the back of Cartridges of the World. Yours looks like it would do the job, in any case!

[Aaron]

Have any of you guys tried a slug that fills the hull diameter wise, close to .740? Obviously this would be .010 over groove diameter, but it seems it should be more accurate by filling up the rattle space, kind of like filling the throat on a rifle.

Aaron

[Greg5278]

Aaron,I have tried it,and not seen any pressure problems. I would give it a go in the Pressure gun first, if you envision full house 1400FPS loads with heat treated bullets. It would only cost $15 for the 3 shots. I have the molds to cover up to .742" if you need it.
Greg

[singleshotbuff]

not to hi-jack a thread, but.....

Greg, where can I get shotshells pressure tested for $15/3?

Thanks.

SSB

[Aaron]

Thanks Greg.

Was there an accuracy advantage with a larger diameter? I am goingto have a mould made after the first of the year and i want to make the best choice possible. It is a tall order. I want it to be accurate, fly true to at least 200 yards and work in a 2 3/4 inch. ..

Aaron

[Greg5278]

For pressure tetsing, you can use Tom Armbrust at Ballistic Research (815)-385-0037. Aaron, the oversize slugs had no real advantage. I would try several different bullets first, before investing $150-200+ in a custom mold. The loads using 4227, and 4759 are hard to fit in the 2 3/4" hull, without using only a Nitro card under the slug. Powders such as Blue Dot, and alliant Steel will work also, but not give the higher velocity. My load with Longshot at 1054FPS loses only 1FPS per yard of flight out to 200 Yards. You can still kill sommething with my 880grain slug at 854FPS. I would venture a guess that it would penetrate a Deer completely at that range.

I have loads that do fit in the 2 3/4" but they use the Federal .090" hull. Federal hasn't made a run of those recently. They allow maximum intenal capacity for bulky slow burn powders. AAron, you could try using 2.5" brass cases, and taper crimping them. That should get you more room.
Greg

[Greg5278]

Kent, the test lloads are sent out. I hope to have the results in a week.
Greg

[Red River Rick]

Greg:

I posted a picture of that 12 gauge HP mould in the "Moulds & Maintenance" section.

RRR

[longbow]

Thanks Greg. I will be looking forward to seeing the results. We can make some decisions after results are in. Hopefully all goes well and you are off to the races with a new slug.

[Dixie Slugs]

This is a very interesting thread. I do have a couple of questions though. I see the great picturs of the molds, but it seems to me that only a folded crimp could be used with those rounded nose slug/bullets. Why the hollowpoing vs a latge flat meplat. Within normal slug shooting distances BC does not mean much. Actual field test show a great deal of tissue damang with a lerge flat maplat. You maught find the test results with a 20 fullbore on Dixie Slugs, done at the John Linebaugh Seminar.
Regards, James

[longbow]

Hollow point is what the man asked for James.

I am waiting for test results to see how these do for him. He is using a rifled barrel needless to say.

I am currently limited to a smoothbore and am working on a variety of slug types and loads. So far my best results have been with AQ's and Brennekes. I have had poor results with the Lyman Foster but pretty good accuracy with Federal factory loaded Fosters in the same gun.

I decided to try some of the 605 gr. hollow points as a Brenneke style in my smoothbore and used the starting load of 35 gr. of Blue Dot listed for the PileDriver but this resulted in rather severe recoil and sticky extraction so I decided not to try another. The hull mouth was torn badly and I suspect the roll crimp got trapped between the undersize slug body and the rest of the hulll when the attached basewad hit it. This was with a near new Fiocchi hull.

Anyway, I am leaning towards bore size slugs and really like the Dixies but I don't have a rifled barrel as yet.

I have been getting a lot of good information and suggestions here so hope to improve my smoothbore results until I can get a rifled gun/barrel.

I will post some results when I see decent improvements in my gun and I'll post results on the hollow point when I get them.

Longbow

[Blammer]

I'm interested in a HP to reduce the wt of the bullet.

Performance wise, Meplat or HP, both should work fine on deer.

[longbow]

While it may go against popular opinion and current trends I like the idea of a bore size ball.

Heavier than a Foster slug but not a real heavy weight so good velocity.

I think a slow twist of 1:70 or slower should handle short slugs and balls well. Possibly even a rifled choke tube with a slow twist would give good performance with a solid ball - much like the old Paradox guns.

However, I don't think there is anyone offering barrels or choke tubes with such a slow twist.

[Blammer]

I'd like a bore sized RB too!

Kinda hard to find a .626 dia ball... :)

[Dixie Slugs]

While we have specialized in slug/bullets for rifled barrels for the last 36 months, that does not mean you may see something else by mid summer.
We make no secret of saying we feel that a hard cast heat treated slug/bullet performs better that a softer swaged slug.....for either rifled or smoothbore barrels. We have asked many times for slug makers submit their product for the same stress testing at the Linebaugh Seminar's Bone Box...none have come forth.
Why....because if you go that route, all your eggs are in ond basket....they work or fail!
The basic problem in a modern slug for smoothbore barrels is the choke. To make a modern slug it has to be hard for many reasons. Dixie could put a load on the market tomorrow that weighed 600 gr (1 3/8 oz) at 1675'/" (it's been tested in 20" barrels).....but no matter what we put on the box as to be shot in cylinder barrels....someone would split an old soft steel full choke barrel. That slug/bullet is truncated cone Hollow Base and would fly straight. And....we have tested it in both 2 3/4" and 3" lengths.
The point I was making about design was what has been proven with cast handgun bullets.....Big Meplat Area and Weight! After all, we are dealing with just a bigger cast bullet!
There is a growing interest in full bore ammo for rifled barrels! We see it in our order picture. It is a naturel progression from cast handgun bullets to rifled shotgun barrels......and not in shotgun only states. So, somebody should get on the bandwagon with molds! our Terminator .730"-730 gr and our new .727"-600 gr
molds have gone, and returned from Pedersoli in Italy. They have been reverse enginnered...and Pedersoli is going into get into the mold business. I have gotton tired of trying to find a mold maker that can furnish producyion molds we need.....and to our designs, which includes drop from the mold with our alloy to our size specs!
Just some thoughts, James

[longbow]

Blammer:

Take a look here if you didn't already know: http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/moulds.htm

I'm sure he could make you what you want and his prices seem good.

James:

I am surprised that there isn't a better selection for smoothbores. I'm guessing from your comments that the skirt on your suggested truncated cone hollow base is very thick?

Most smoothbore slugs are soft lead except for Brennekes and maybe Gualandi. I found the classic Brennekes to shoot well from my gun but haven't tried Gualandi. Nor have I shot Brennekes through a full choke but my understanding is that they will not damage choke or barrel.

It seems to me that there are other designs that would allow a full bore hard slug to be shot through a choke without damaging the barrel.

I am working on a couple of ideas now. My problem is more in what load recipe to use. I have been very conservative with loading and try to find published data or make minimal changes since the loading manuals are full of warnings about making any substitutions. I have been getting some good info from the good folks here and on other websites so am making progress.

I will be modifying a couple of moulds to try new ideas shortly.

Do you think there is a market for a full bore hard slug for smoothbore that will accomodate a full choke if necessary?

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

Longbow and All....I can only base my thoughts and answers on what I see people asking us to build. I talk to a great many customers that buy our full bore ammo and others that are asking about a heavy hard slug for their smoothbores.
Most seem to understand the problem with chokes.....but there is still the potential out there of spliting a barrel of an older gun with thin soft barrels.
It is completely different if you sell them a hard slug and they screw up......than selling loaded ammo.
Any slug that will swaged through a choke is also too soft to break large bones and penetrate tough through tissue without deforming or fragmenting. They may be adequate for thin skin game.....but as a backup, our use against dangerous game, they can get somene hurt bad.....it is as simple as that.
Yes, the skirts are thick on our .727"-600 gr slug/bullet. It is not designed to expand into the barrel as a Foster....and we use a .250" hard nitro under it to keep the wad from blowing into the base.....a common problem with a Foster designs.
As to the market for a design for smoothbores?.....limited and most with people using a shotgun for backup.
Let's face it....at present most guns out there have compromise chambers....including rifled barrels.....half design carried over from shot and half designs for rifled barrel. The forcing cones are still a problem. There are a few custom chambers on custom guns designed around true rifled barrel concept.
There is more to making ammo than just having something that looks good.
Powders are not as big a problem as wads...either cut wads or plastic. An accurate slug load must have a hard firm wad base, unlike a soft base for shot. Alignment through those forcing cones is a must! The slug must be fully into the barrel before the wads exit the hull! Accuracy will never be there if the slug is unsupported in the forcing cone. This fact is overlooked quite often. In order to make an accurate loads...you must think about what you have learned from hard cast in handguns. There is the same problem with handguns with oversize chamber throats as is the forcing cone in shotgun chambers
The Brenneke shoots pretty because the wads are connected to the slug as it goes into the forcing cone......the longer that conected wad is, the better the alignment.
I may be a little caustic, but I see little said about the thoughts I have expressed here.
Regards, James.

[longbow]

James I appreciate the feedback - not caustic at all.

I have been struggling, albeit a bit at a time, for many years. I have tried various slugs on and off for about 30 years but not really looked at it like a project. I have mainly used traditional Fosters and book loads with minor alterations like paper patching slugs to get them to bore size. I really haven't looked deeply into the finer details until recently.

As you point out, and maybe it should be more obvious but I hadn't really thought about it, are the chamber and forcing cone designs. Even more of and issue with a 2 3/4" hull in a 3" chamber so forcing cone to deal with and a long jump to get to it first! I had never considered how much the slug can skew in that distance which may well help explain my poor results with the short Lyman Foster slug.

Like I said, I have kind of worked on this for a long time but not as seriously or in as much detail as I should have. I have probably learned more in the last 6 months than I have in the last 29 1/2 years! There are many people here such as yourself with far more slug shooting experience than I am ever likely to get and I appreciate them sharing there experiences and knowledge.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

Let me explain something right up front. I spent my entire adult life working for the gum and ammo co's, in various postions, including Vice-Pres & Director of Marketing for the former Smith & wesson Ammo Co. Duriing all that time I was fortunate to have rubbed elbows with some of the old Greats.
When I retired and moved back to my native state of Florida.....I got tired of fishing and general loafing around. Ammo is in my blood and the results was Dixie Slugs. I enjoy the head to head talk with my customers....there is no middlemen eating up dollars.
Now....as I have said before, there is a growing intrerest in rifled barrels.....and not only in shotgun-only-states. Many of our customers have been involved witj hard cast in handguns.....a natural progression to large rifled barrels.
I really do not claim to have a good bedside manner and sometime come off a little caustic when I see speculation, instead of facts. With all the sydicated gas bag writers today, the web is about the only place left to get facts!
I am nothing more that an old mossy-back ammo man!
Regards, James

[Blammer]

thanks for explaining a few things...

[longbow]

James:

I for one am quite interested in your posts here and on other sites. I'm trying to learn everything I can from wherever I can and you are providing good information and feedback.

Thanks,
Longbow

[Blammer]

ditto

[Dixie Slugs]

The first thing to remember about hard cast full bore ammo for rifled shothun barrels....it is just another larger bullet....everything envolved is the same. Same lube, same casting practices, same alloy requiremnts, about the same everything. Slow powders for heavy slug/bullets....Alliant Blue Dot and Steel are good. Straight wall cases are best...Fiocchi, Cheddite, Federal. The wad column should be firm. Circle Fly has great .250" hard nitro wads and the hard gray3/8" filler wad. bpi has the best overpowder wad...X12X
A good safe place to start with powder is to use the same amount showing for an equal weight shot. Slug/buulet laods have less sidewall pressure. friction than an equal weight of shot. Most factory rifled barrels run .727" in the grooves and .717" on the lands. You can go .003" over groove diameter in the large bores. Heat treating wheelweights at 425/450 for one hour and cool water quench will run the bhn up to around 30 bhn....and will drop back to about 28 and stabilize over a couple weeks.
There is nothing magic to learn, just common sense. Ren=member what we spoke of about the length of the wad column to seal. Drop a full bore slug into the chamber.it will dtop in the forcing cone. Measure the depth to the rim of the shell's chamber. Add the length of the slug bullet to that, less the chamber length.....and you have the length of the needed wad column so the entire slug is in the bore while the wad is still exiting the hull. That way there is no blowby.
Just some thoughts, James

[BAGTIC]

Why hollowpoints in bullets that big?

They already have more than enough diameter to kill effectively and too much expansion would just jeopardize penetration, the big bores' most important advantage. Seems like gilding the lily to me.

[longbow]

I am not the designer of the slug just the mould maker. I believe the goal was to produce a slug of "desired" dimensions without excessive weight.

A 12 ga. RB weighs about 560 gr. and a solid "square" slug is about 870 gr. so to get a reasonable weight slug it has to be hollow base, hollow point, not "square" or a combination to stretch it out to get good bore contact and alignment.

Personally I lean towards bore size round ball with a suitable twist of about 1:120" - according to the Greenhills formula. Unfortunately my budget doesn't allow for custom guns or barrels at this point in my life so I am playing with smoothbores. Modern rifled shotguns have much quicker twists than that.

The fellow that asked was looking for a slug of certain dimensions, weight and style to suit his purposes. He is far more experienced than I am in the art of shotgun slug design and performance.

I am sure James of Dixie slugs has observations and comments as well. He is an advocate of bore size heavy slugs similar to the old Paradox style.

I am in learning mode and am quite happy to help out as long as I get some feedback as to what works and what doesn't. This has been an interesting exercise - and it is still in progress.

[Dixie Slugs]

We are all re-learning about slug/bullet designs. Greg is a dear frind of mine and we discuss full bore slug designs quite often. We do have a few different ideas on slug/bullet weight....that's all.
Now.....on a slug from a push mold that has no lube/relief grove. I would highly suggest useing Moly. We have the equipment to imping Moly into the surface of the lead slug/bullet. It works extra good, but doe not adapt well for larger production. The Moly is actually push into the surface of hard lead.
The original Paradox slug bullet did have a large rounded groove that was 1/3 of the side wall lenght. It was really there to reduce sidewall friction since the slug/bullet was quite hard.
The basic problem with the Paradox design is rolled crimping. It is very hard to get the rolled crimp down to the first band on a Paradox design....and the Paradox nose design does not give the tissue damage that a wad cutter type nose does. If you do not want the wadcutter nos edesign...a truncat nose is good. The hollow pointing is used to adjust the weight of the slug. There is some arguement as to whether the hollow point nose design is more accurate in flight than a hollow base. In truth there is no difference in accuracy if both have consistant sidewall thickness and the veloacity is high enough to stabilize both.
It just matter of which one the designer/shooter likes....that big hollow point nose looks good to some shooter/hunters, even if it des not expand!...and I think it weakens (sp) the nose when hitting big green bones
Just some thoughts....Regards, James

[longbow]

James:

The intent of Greg's design is to utilize plastic shotcups for easier loading so the slug doesn't actually contact the barrel - no lube groove required.

Also, since the push out moulds are so easy to make and allow easy changes to the nose shape it makes experimenting quicker, easier and cheaper than conventional split moulds.

If desired, a lube holding surface can be added by knurling. I made a grooving tool that makes multiple small grooves and swells the slug by about 0.003" so they have to be cast a little undersize. This would allow a full bore slug with lube. I have done this with .44 mag and .303 British bullets with good results. Accuracy has been good and no leading. I haven't tried it with a shotgun slug as I don't have rifled shotgun but no reason it shouldn't work. Also, as you mention, moly may well be another good solution.

I'm sure Greg will post results when he completes testing. He has put a lot of work into this project.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

I am very well aware of what Greg is doing as we dicuss projects one or two times a week.
I am also aware that he is loking at designs that go inside of a wad and do not need lube.
But, I also posted that a smooth sided slug cound use Moly very well, as cast.
I am also trying to get people to understand that the large groove in the originals, and presnt day designs, was/is designed to reduce sidewall friction on hard cast heat treated slug/bullets....fact! I also undersatnd the ease of push trough molds...and reduce cost. I will mention in passing that pressure will be higher, all the considerations as to diameter, weight and hardness, than a design that has a relief gun....in rifled barrels. We ahve seen that in developing our production ammo.
I will also state that the design requirements of an ammo maker, selling to the general public, is different that the design requirements of a hobbyist (sp). There all kinds of exotic designs that the hobbyist can play with....that the ammo maker would go broke trying to sell. So...by nature the ammo maker must be conservative in many respects. This alone, may be a reason that an ammo maker should stay off a forum that is primarlly hobbyists.
Regards, James

[longbow]

You bring up a good point James. A full bore slug with a long contact surface presents a lot of lead to swage and a lot of bore friction.

I'm not implying that the smooth sided slug us better, simply that it is easier to produce for experimentation. Certainly a full bore lug would require some means of allowing lube and as you say a relief groove or two would help reduce friction and so pressure.

Lots of things to think about. That's what I like about this place - lots of experience brought together in one spot and shared. You have brought up many good points.

[Dixie Slugs]

For the reloader and caster, I think the smooth side slug/bullet fron a push through mold is a very good way to go. We need more mold makers making large slug/bullets! I see no real problem with a slug/bullet without a relief.lube groove unless the allot was very hard and heat treated. I still think Moly would be the easy way to go.
now....let's look at shotgun slugs in general. There are very basic differences in what is being worked on! Greg is working on a design for extending the hunting range in Shotgun-Only-States, there are others that are working on designs the the casters of cast bullets for reloading, and there are others working on take-off designs form the Brits work for large and/or dangerous game. There are also some that are working on lathe turned brass and ciopper slug/bullets....very expensive!
I want to see bullet casters, like here on Cast Boolits, get more involved! Dixie really does not lose any business from the handloaders....and we sponser the Reloading Section of Shotgun World. Forums like this is the Net's Research & Development Department! We can not depend on the syndicated rag writers anymore.
Regards, James

[only1asterisk]

Rick,

I like this one:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5596&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1197699582

What would you say to something like this?