Head to head comparisons, PC versus lube;accuracy, velocity, consistency

[C. Latch]

I'd like to start a thread soliciting real-world data comparing velocity and/or accuracy of PC'ed bullets to the SAME LOADS using conventional lubes.

I'm hoping this can turn into more of a 'data thread' and less of a discussion (obviously discussion is fine, too).

Anyway, I'll start:

.45 ACP
Tula LPP
Mixed Brass
NOE 452-230-hp with large pins (~233 grain)
Fired from SA 1911 at 5' (I normally set up the chrony at 10' but I was on the porch this morning and did what I could do)

7.2 grains of 800-x (note: maximum charge, maybe over maximum in some data, use at own risk, I weighed each charge and would NOT try to throw this charge of this powder from a measure)

Lubed with a lithium grease and beeswax mix:
1001
957
964
1006
973
964
970
AVG 976
SD 19


PC'ed with a mix of HF red and black:
945
943
921
957
936
942
982
AVG 946
SD 19

I did NOT shoot this load for accuracy. I have some accurate semi-auto handguns but neither of my 1911s qualify. I'm going to try to shoot the PC load off the bench eventually, as this velocity spread is 'close enough' to a conventional lube velocity; I will probably shoot this bullet mainly with lesser charges of other powders, or with other powders, as a plinking round.

Anyway, the results of this (admittedly unsignificant, though 7 rounds is something of a statistical minimum for useful data) test: conventional lube is 30' faster than PC.

[sparky45]

I applaud your efforts. I, and others, I would think shoot to achieve basically one, maybe two things. One, I like to hear and feel the power of my Handguns, i.e. I like to hear the "Bang!". Two, I load to be able to hear MORE BANGS!. PC'ing the little Lead orbs greatly enhances my experience(s). What's not to like! By now everyone knows that PC'd bullets are slicker and "cleaner" to use, and by their nature will travel a little slower (insignificant) than traditionally lubed bullets.
Back to the OP, again I applaud your efforts and I hope others will chime in with their results, specifically as it pertains to accuracy. I think, for what ever reason, most are hung up on the accuracy issue and will view PC'd bullets with a Jaundiced eye until someone finally and consistently broaches that divide.
Again, for me, I'll PC because it's cleaner, easier and I am a visual creature, I like COLOR!. To me, unless you BR everything, it's kind of a waste of time to prove accuracy. My guns are far more accurate than my ability to use them.
Sparky

[Hang Fire]

Thanks for posting your preliminary tests.

[Beagle333]

I have found that in my .45 Peacemaker (big ol' heavy boolit [280gr] traveling only 750fps), it only varies by 4-5 fps slower.
But in my .357 [148gr] at 1300+ fps, the PC'd boolits are 44 fps slower on average. 'Still insignificant in the way I shoot. :-D

[garym1a2]

For what it's worth given equal bullet weights copper jacket is slower than cast lead conventional lube.

[sparky45]

I agree with Gary on that, however, I believe conventional lubed cast Lead is also faster than PC'd, everything else being equal.

[DRNurse1]

Good thread. I do not PC (yet) but one of our members kindly traded some test boolits in his caliber for coating 100 of my boolits. I think he used the diluted epoxy paint process. So far, I have not found a way to coat several hundred boolits at a time (500-100 would be nice).

My results:

PC: 755fps average for 10 rounds; POI 3.2 inches below POA; maximum center to center spread @ 25 yards 3.5 inches (sand bag rest, open sights)

Loobed: 790fps average for 10 rounds; POI 0.3 inches above POA; maximum spread center to center @ 25 yards 1.2inches (sand bag rest, open sights)

Conditions:Coated 225 gr SWC beveled base sized after coating to 0.452 versus same boolits lubed 2/3 beeswax+1/3 molybenum/titanium gear lube + 1% by weight carnuba. Before coating BHN=13 for both lots. Loaded on Dillon XL650 alternating PC and Loobed boolits over 3.8 grains Bullseye and Winchester LPP, fired on an indoor range, 55*F temp. I fired 5 rounds, swabbed the BBL then fired 5 more, alternating magazines and targets (5 xPC, clean, 5 x Loobed,....with no particular time constraint)

Analysis: I tried to control reasonably for variations by alternating cartridge construction and testing. I am not certain the difference in POI/ POA can be explained by the difference in velocity, however the slower rounds did wind up impacting lower than the faster ones as one might predict. the center to center variation was more lateral than vertical (see my avitar for a 10 round off hand target outdoor with the same gun / loobed cartridge combination fired in the timed fire stage (2 x 5 round strings in 20 seconds per string). The center to center accuracy is greater than the the 10 ring diameter with the PC results here (3.5/3.36) and the loob results were well within the X-ring (1.2/1.695). My thoughts about the difference in accuracy: ???. Could be some variation in the base on the PC boolits. These happened to be from the same batch of cast boolits selected randomly. I weighed each boolit so they all had the same weight prior to loobing or PC so that was controlled. I did not factor in the thickness of the PC so if it happened to be uneven....? The lateral variance is likely operator error, but the vertical variance for the PC is greater than the X ring (1.9/1.695).

[popper]

Latch - only problem with this analysis is variety of the different lubes used. I don't lube anymore so I can't add any data, I will concede that PC may go slower. 2-3% fps diff should not have any major effect of POI.

[leadman]

I know that coating with Hi-Tek also slows the boolits down. I am thinking of doing a HT vs PC vs my combo Carnuba Red & Magma lube.
I don't have the ES gun any longer but do have some HF Red. Just need to study up on a good method to tumble the boolits in pc. I do have acetone and lacquer thinner.
Today I used HT Red Copper with Extreme cat along with moly in the mix to coat some Lyman 45gr RN GC boolits in 22 cal. Trying to get the velocity up along with decreased group size.
How fast has PC been shot in a 22 cal. like the 223 Rem? I shot the 50gr Bator last week in my Contender 23" bull barrel at 3,619 fps avg. for 5 shots, group size was 2.9" at 100 yards.

[C. Latch]

Latch - only problem with this analysis is variety of the different lubes used. I don't lube anymore so I can't add any data, I will concede that PC may go slower. 2-3% fps diff should not have any major effect of POI.


I realize that not everyone uses the same lube and not every lube performs the same, but what I'm driving at here is an establishment of some reliable guidelines - if we get enough head-to-head comparisons of enough calibers, ranging from light pistol loads on up through fast rifle loads, it would be possible to begin to make some generalizations and predictions about how new PC'ers should expect to see their ammo change when they switch from lube to PC.

I also realize that for many people, these differences between lube and PC are meaningless. If I look over the last decade of my shooting I'd have to say that 80% or more of it was of the sort where minor differences in velocity or accuracy meant nothing. This thread is for those who work within the other 20%. Hunting, self defense, and some forms of competitive shooting present the shooter with a need (or at want and expectation, at least) of certain performance parameters (power and accuracy/consistency) and I believe it would be useful for those considering PC to have an idea of what they were getting into with PC and what it cost, if anything, in performance.

I have more ammo to test this afternoon, but I also have two sleeping babies right next to the 'range' so there's no guarantee that I'll get any more data this afternoon. Might have to just walk off away from the house and do some blasting. :)

[sparky45]

I think it will make a BIG difference in the technique used to PC the cast Lead. Also, whether the Cast Lead was sized/ not sized. Seems to be several variables to consider.

[donhuff]

Any ideas as to WHY the PC bullets are slower? I thought that they should be faster cause when I run them through my sizer, they go through much easier than plain lead and lube. And to make them slide through even easier, I give them a spraying with silicone spray (CRC brand).

[sparky45]

From what I understand, the bullet as PC'd becomes more "slick" and with the heating involved to cure the PC hardness is lost (lower BHN) allowing for compression or swaging of the bullet when crimped. With a lighter crimp to compensate for the Swaging effect there is sometimes more blow back and less obturation resulting in a slower projectile. That's just what I understand, might be a load of pucky, but sounds reasonable.

[popper]

Latch - 3% diff in fps @ 100 is < 0.1" POI for 308, 0.02" @ 20 for pistol. Some have tried lube on top of PC but didn't get any appreciable benefit. More important to me is the ES vs the SD - I plot my fps in Excel to see how good my loads are.
it would be useful for those considering PC to have an idea of what they were getting into with PC and what it cost, if anything, in performance.
Totally agree. From this and the HiTek thread, it appears not to be a big diff. in fps, but is slower. More importantly, the ES from your data is larger than the avg. fps diff.
Sparky - IMHO it is just the friction of the coating, like jacketed, it's NOT a lube as we normally think of it.

[Tech2]

Everything else being roughly equal slicker is slower. The HBN and Molly guys have dealt with this for years. Modern powder needs pressure to make pressure and PC'ed boolits are just outrunning the powder. Not enough back pressure to develop full power.
The HBN rifle guys are generally able to up the charge to get the velocity back and can even go beyond uncoated speeds without overpressure signs. That is with a copper jacket. A nice red candy coating isn't going to keep the lead from spinning apart. However adding a little copper to the lead may!

[Shooter6br]

I moly coated for benchrest guns. The selling point was reduced wear for your $400 barrel. I guess PC has some benefits

[bstone5]

I have found powder coated with a cola can gas check is a little faster than a purchase cast lead bullet with the normal blue lube most commercial cast bullets use as a lube.

[dverna]

Popper makes a valid point. A few FPS is never going to be a deal killer for most of us if coated bullets perform in every other aspect. Would any of you stop coating if you lost 3% velocity and had one big ragged hole?

The only issue I can see if your load is already near maximum and you need to achieve a minimum power factor for competitive shooting.

Don Verna

DR
Good post.

[C. Latch]

Popper makes a valid point. A few FPS is never going to be a deal killer for most of us if coated bullets perform in every other aspect. Would any of you stop coating if you lost 3% velocity and had one big ragged hole?

The only issue I can see if your load is already near maximum and you need to achieve a minimum power factor for competitive shooting.

Don Verna

DR
Good post.

I completely agree that *most* shooting is done under cirucmstances where -3% velocity doesn't matter. But I'm also interested in accuracy comparisons; I am NOT convinced that PC will always be as accurate or more accurate than some form of conventional lube, and for some uses that will be a deal-breaker.

Also, as far as velocity is concerned, while I couldn't care less about 3% in my plinking ammo for my .38s or .45ACPs, for my .45 Colt hunting ammo, where I'm using a wide-nosed bullet that needs a certain velocity floor to stabilize well, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to make that floor with the powder I have the most of on hand (2400) and that 3% might be enough to make me use a more expensive powder. I am 100% certain that many shooters will find at least *some* instances where a seemingly small difference in velocity may be a 'big deal' due to the particulars of their circumstances. This thread is for them; for the guy blasting .38 wadcutters at 25 feet it is almost certainly a waste of his time to read and analyze what I'm trying to put together here.

I have several things left to shoot to compare......if the weather ever breaks. I've been working outside in this cold all week and frankly would prefer sitting at home to shooting unless it warms up a lot tomorrow.