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View Full Version : Very Light Loads in Large Caliber S&W Revolvers



fourarmed
01-28-2014, 02:41 PM
Does anybody have any secrets to share in getting really good groups out of .41 and .44 Smith revolvers at the 700 to 800 fps velocity level? My 57 shoots good groups when I get it up over 1000 fps, but not below that. My alloy is pretty hard. I wonder if that is part of the problem.

Outpost75
01-28-2014, 02:51 PM
In light cowboy loads you will get much better results with softer alloys not exceeding about 8-10 BHN. I use 1:40 tin/lead down at the velocity range you are working, and go to 1:30 for heavier hunting loads up to 1000 fps, and wheelweights above that.

45 2.1
01-28-2014, 03:14 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Good advice.

Most people will never realize just how accuracy dependent their choice of alloy is.

fredj338
01-28-2014, 04:12 PM
Powder choice helps too. Really light loads want a faster powder for best results. I shot pounds of Red Dot in my light 45colt CAS loads. You can almost use a pure lead bullet @ 750fps, so soften your alloy up if running it over 12bhn.

dverna
01-28-2014, 07:04 PM
I am not sure I buy the alloy argument.

Maybe it was a fluke, but my M52 S&W would put 50 shots into 3" @ 50 yards with bullets made of Linotype. The load was 2.7 gr of BE under a 148 gr H&G.

My Marlin 1894 will put 10 shoots into 1 1/4 inches at 30 yards using commercial "hardcast' (92/6/2) .38 cal. 130 gr bullets over 2.7 gr of Clays.

But as fredj points out, these are fast powders. It could be your light loads have inconsistent velocity because of low pressure. Faster powders will be more consistent.

I agree than at low velocities there is no need for a harder bullet. But I do not understand how a 'hard' bullet will yield poor accuracy if bullet fit is correct.

Don Verna

Larry Gibson
01-28-2014, 07:10 PM
As mentioned softer alloys and a faster powder is needed. In my .41s, which has included S&Ws in the past, I use 5 gr of Bullseye in my .41 under a TL410-175-SWC and the TL410-210-SWC for 850 and 800 fps and very good accuracy.

In my .44s I use 5 - 6 gr Bullseye under TL429-240-SWCs or 44-250-KTs for the same 800 - 850 fps and very good accuracy.

Alloy is usually COWWs + 2% tin and then mixed at 50/50 with lead. The bullets are AC'd and lube with a soft lube; BAC or NRA 50/50.

Larry Gibson

Outpost75
01-28-2014, 08:49 PM
My experience has been that revolvers are an entirely different animal than a target autoloader, single-shot pistol or a rifle having a solid barrel.

Revolver bullets acquire significant translational velocity during initial acceleration and have no appreciable shot-start force other than the crimp, and free bullet travel before the projectile achieves rotation may exceed bullet diameter, with short bullets, the base clearing the case mouth before the rifling can impart rotation.

In the target auto pistol the bullet starts to engrave and begins to rotate before peak pressure is reached.

While hard bullets which fit the cylinder throats exactly will be most accurate, as Col. E.H. Harrison's published work indicates, softer bullets, will shoot well even if slightly undersized and are easier for the novice to obtain good results using the same load components in a variety of guns.

Another factor is the cost of alloy and the soft wheelweight and scrap metals cost only about 1/4 as much as linotype or 92-6-2 commercial " hardball" alloy.

For hunting purposes the dilute tin/lead alloys, when used with flatnosed bullets at pressures and velocities suitable for their strength, perform well. While linotype is fine for shooting steel or punching paper, it is not my choice in feeding a "meat" gun.

Good discussion!

TMenezes
01-28-2014, 10:40 PM
My alloy is soft to medium depending on what lead I can get my hands on and my S&W and Ruger large bores love them sized or not. For ultra light loads I like 700X the best. Worked way better for me than Trail Boss. For a bit more velocity TightGroup is working very well. I use 45/45/10 for lube.

TMenezes
01-29-2014, 02:09 AM
My alloy is soft to medium depending on what lead I can get my hands on and my S&W and Ruger large bores love them sized or not. For ultra light loads I like 700X the best. Worked way better for me than Trail Boss. For a bit more velocity TightGroup is working very well. I use 45/45/10 for lube.

Suppose I should qualify a feel things. First if you want a clean consistant burn in very light loads a fast burning powder is your best (only?) option. Also I am lucky with my Lee .44 and .45 cal molds dropping slugs exactly .001 over and not needing any sizing. My NOE and Mihec molds are big and need sizing. My molds from Accurate Molds may or may not need sizing. As for my loads I should say my go to target loads are as follows. And just FYI to the OP my 4inch Smith model 25 is probably my most accurate handgun.

44 special, 4.5gr 700X, 200gr Lee 200gr boolit

44 mag and 45 Colt, 5gr 700X, 200gr for 44, 200gr Lee or 230gr AccurateMold for 45 Colt. I know 5gr is below the start loads listed in some manuals but trust me it is a fast burner that doesn't need much of it to burn clean produce very accurate loads.

Like I mentioned before I tried TrailBoss for my very light loads and it just wasn't for me. For one its expensive and for another you use allot of it filling large cases making it even more expensive. I have heard Hodgdon Clays is very good and very clean burning in light loads but haven't tried it yet. 700X has proved a very clean, accurate, and very inexpensive powder for very light loads. TightGroup is awesome but needs a bit more powder (and pressure) but is exactly as the name suggests a very accurate powder. The only problem I have had with 700X is that it doesn't meter real well in my powder measure below 4gr or so as its a flake powder. Making it annoying to use in small bores like 38 Special.

Since you asked for accurate loads in the S&W, my 4in Smith model 25's all time most accurate load is 5gr 700X with AccurateMolds 230gr round shoulder flat point, Starline 45 Colt Brass, Federal primer. Its gold, pure gold. I shoot with my Law Enforcement coworkers and they are all amazed. Downs 5 out of 6 bowling pins at 50 yards day in and day out. I know that may not mean much to some of the long range guys here, but for me and my coworkers that kind of accuracy off hand at that range is awesome!

TMenezes
01-29-2014, 02:18 AM
My alloy is soft to medium depending on what lead I can get my hands on and my S&W and Ruger large bores love them sized or not. For ultra light loads I like 700X the best. Worked way better for me than Trail Boss. For a bit more velocity TightGroup is working very well. I use 45/45/10 for lube.

Suppose I should qualify a feel things. First if you want a clean consistant burn in very light loads a fast burning powder is your best (only?) option. Also I am lucky with my Lee .44 and .45 cal molds dropping slugs exactly .001 over and not needing any sizing. My NOE and Mihec molds are big and need sizing. My molds from Accurate Molds may or may not need sizing. As for my loads I should say my go to target loads are as follows. And just FYI to the OP my 4inch Smith model 25 is probably my most accurate handgun.

44 special, 4.5gr 700X, 200gr Lee 200gr boolit

44 mag and 45 Colt, 5gr 700X, 200gr for 44, 200gr Lee or 230gr AccurateMold for 45 Colt. I know 5gr is below the start loads listed in some manuals but trust me it is a fast burner that doesn't need much of it to burn clean produce very accurate loads.

Like I mentioned before I tried TrailBoss for my very light loads and it just wasn't for me. For one its expensive and for another you use allot of it filling large cases making it even more expensive. I have heard Hodgdon Clays is very good and very clean burning in light loads but haven't tried it yet. 700X has proved a very clean, accurate, and very inexpensive powder for very light loads. TightGroup is awesome but needs a bit more powder (and pressure) but is exactly as the name suggests a very accurate powder. The only problem I have had with 700X is that it doesn't meter real well in my powder measure below 4gr or so as its a flake powder. Making it annoying to use in small bores like 38 Special.

Since you asked for accurate loads in the S&W, my 4in Smith model 25's all time most accurate load is 5gr 700X with AccurateMolds 230gr round shoulder flat point, Starline 45 Colt Brass, Federal primer. Its gold, pure gold. I shoot with my Law Enforcement coworkers and they are all amazed. Downs 5 out of 6 bowling pins at 50 yards day in and day out. I know that may not mean much to some of the long range guys here, but for me and my coworkers that kind of accuracy off hand at that range is awesome!

Jack Stanley
01-29-2014, 12:23 PM
During my employment years I used a model twenty-nine to compete more for fun than anything . Five to six grains of Bullseye sent an awfull lot of hundred eighty-five grain wadcutters downrange . They were soft lead and rarely above ten brinell as I remember . One year before a qualifier match I'd run out of target ammo and didn't notice untill the day of the match . So I had to use two hundred forty grain semi-wadcutters with a moderate charge of Unique . Of the same alloy as the wadcutters they were my "other" load for plinking .

Jack

WallyM3
01-29-2014, 12:30 PM
One option for the .41 Magnum is to cut the cases down to .41 Special for improved "efficiency".

Although others have had different experiences, 41M has a reputation for getting a little wobbly below 900 fps.

gwpercle
01-29-2014, 01:33 PM
This is the load my model 58 S&W likes: 41 magnum cases , standard large pistol primer, 7.0 grains Red Dot powder , Lee#410-195-SWC or Lyman # 410459 (220 gr.), alloy is 50/50 clip-on wheel weights and lead/range scrap, boolits are air cooled.

I had a batch of really hard brass ( reloaded several times with magnum loads) , I had to anneal them so the cases would expand under the lower pressure, seal properly and not get blackened residue on the case body. After that it was all fun and games.

That 7.0 grain Red Dot load and cast boolit load is a keeper. Shoots nice little groups without all the recoil and concussion. I like it!

Gary

captaint
01-29-2014, 03:18 PM
I've been shooting the mod 57 with a 210 gr boolit and 6.8 grains of Red Dot. Accuracy is amazing. Boolits are no harder than BHN 12. Been a great load. Mike

'74 sharps
01-29-2014, 03:34 PM
For my K and N size framed S&W's, I use a very soft, almost pure lead bullet with Trail Boss for medium loads. The Trail Boss is a very fluffy powder and will fill the case preventing any double or triple charges as would be possible with some other powders.

Old Caster
01-29-2014, 10:56 PM
It is important to not only use soft lead like mentioned above but soft lube is way more forgiving than hard lube too. When using hard lead it is possible to get accurate loads but way more difficult. I think the difference is having the sizing exact whereas soft lead doesn't have to be perfect and can be oversize. When you get to revolvers, you not only have to have just the right size for the barrel but the forcing cone and the cylinder throats have to match the barrel. Easier to just use soft lead and soft lube. You may get an accurate load using slow powders for a light load but it makes for too dirty of a load and more likelihood of wide velocity variations plus it is possible to have a dud where the powder doesn't explode but burns at a slow rate making the bullet stick in the barrel.

L Ross
01-30-2014, 11:30 AM
Fourarmed, here's a quick thing to try. Back in the mid 70's when all I knew about cast lead bullets was what I read in Dean Grinnell's fine book and a couple of old Lyman manuals I loaded a lot of light 44 mag loads, (coffee cans full) with 6.2 grains of 700-X with excellent accuracy. My range master Capt. used to embarrass the local rifle shooters on deer rifle sight-in weekends with his 8 3/8" M-29 with this load at 100 yards. But here was the "trick" that is contrary to modern thinking. The bullets were 429215's and were sized in a Lyman 450 at .429" just like I read and....gaschecked! I didn't know any better. Gas checks were cheap and readily available and I just put them on by rote. Simple brass colored Lyman non crimp on gas checks. I shot that load and full power loads with a Super Black Hawk out to 250 yards. Mostly 70's vintage ACWW's which were free, sometimes lino which was also cheap and easy to get. Try a few mild loads with 700-X as TMenezes recommended with a gas checked bullet. If they are the answer to your question pick up a check maker from one of our fine members and enjoy.

Duke